THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Words That Win: How Supercommunicators Unlock the Secrets to Connection with Charles Duhigg

Episode Date: November 30, 2024

Unlocking the Secrets of Super Communication: Words That Win! What if I told you that the way you communicate could be the key to your success in relationships, business, and life? In this episode, I’m sitting down with the brilliant Charles Duhigg, author of Words That Win, along with insights from legendary communicators like John Maxwell, Chuck Wisner, Les Brown, and others, to uncover how super communicators connect deeply, influence others, and make their words truly impactful. We explore the three types of conversations that shape every interaction—practical, emotional, and social—and why mismatching them can cause disconnection. Charles and I discuss the art of active listening, including his game-changing concept of “looping for understanding,” which transforms not just what you hear but how others feel heard. Plus, we dive into how asking meaningful, deep questions can unlock hidden stories and values in others, forging connections that last a lifetime. You’ll hear Charles’s incredible story of a CIA recruiter whose career pivoted when he learned how to match emotions and communicate vulnerably. We also discuss how communication isn’t just verbal—your tone, gestures, and even laughter can build trust or erode it. Non-verbal cues and emotional intelligence play pivotal roles, as Bedros Keuilian and Les Brown share how they use these tools to inspire and lead. Key Takeaways: - The three conversation types and how to identify and match them for stronger connections. - Why active listening is more about what you do after someone speaks than during. - How vulnerability and storytelling break down barriers and build trust. - The role of non-verbal communication and emotional reciprocity in creating lasting bonds. - Practical strategies for handling tough conversations and reducing judgment in disagreements. This episode is packed with actionable techniques to elevate your communication skills and become a master of connection. By the end, you’ll have the tools to strengthen your relationships, lead with influence, and truly be heard. Start applying these skills today because your ability to communicate could be the key to unlocking the life you’ve always dreamed of. Thank you for watching this video—Please Share it and get the word out! What part of this video resonated with you the most? Comment below! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So hey guys, listen, we're all trying to get more productive and the question is how do you find a way to get an edge? I'm a big believer that if you're getting mentoring or you're in an environment that causes growth, a growth-based environment, that you're much more likely to grow and you're going to grow faster. And that's why I love Growth Day. Growth Day is an app that my friend Brendan Rushard has created that I'm a big fan of. Write this down growthday.com forward slash ed. So if you want to be more productive, by the way, he's asked me, I post videos in there every single Monday that gets your day off to the right start. He's got about $5,000, $10,000 worth of courses that are in there that come with the app. Also, some of the top

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That's growthday.com forward slash Ed. Stringing December 3rd only on Disney Plus. Head. Don't miss the new Star Wars adventure. Do you want to join me? Skeleton Crew, two episode premiere December 3rd, only on Disney Plus. This is The Ed Mylet Show. Hey everyone, welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow The Ed Myett show on Apple and Spotify links are in the show notes You'll never miss an episode that way. This guy is a Pulitzer Prize winning writer He's a New York Times best-selling author and he's a renowned expert on habits and also now after reading his work

He's an expert on communication. So Charles Dewey. Welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me on this is such a treat for me Yeah, I love you brother. You're going to listen to a big brain today, everybody, on a topic that you need to know more about. I got to tell you why I love your book so much. We were just talking about kids off camera. There's a few things I want my kids to have left my house with.

One, I want them to have some faith, which is their morals and ethics. I want them to have some work ethic, self-confidence. And if I could give them a fourth thing, it would be the ability to be an outstanding communicator. And I just think it's one of the things that is the most important elements of life. I'm sure you agree.

I think that's absolutely right. And I think the things that you mentioned before that are really important, because you could be a great communicator, and if you don't have values, if you don't have discipline, then it's not necessarily gonna get you any place. But the difference between people

who have those first three things, and then don't know discipline, then it's not necessarily gonna get you anyplace. But the difference between people who have those first three things and then don't know how to communicate is that they stall out at some point. They have trouble in their marriage, they have trouble communicating with their spouse or their partner, they oftentimes stall out at work because the thing that made them successful at work, once you become a manager, it's not just doing that,

it's about helping other people learn how to do that. And also, there's a huge amount of self-discovery that comes from conversation, right? Like, when I talk to you and you talk to me, we learn things about ourselves through what we say, and it takes someone talented as super communicator to draw that out, to know how to make the space for that. That's interesting, you learn about yourself too,

I didn't think about it that way, but you're right. I almost feel like after I was reading your book, and by the way everybody, it is outstanding. This man does not write average books, he just doesn't, and he sells a lot of them for a reason. And I almost feel like after reading it, I think I thought this before, but almost your ability to communicate

will be the cap on your life to some extent. It's the cap on your, the intimacy level in your relationship, for example, to some extent is limited or enhanced by your ability to communicate non-verbal cues, verbal cues, your ability to lead and move people in business, your family environment, friendships.

I mean, the cap on your success level in those areas is almost directly correlated to communication. I absolutely... So, my father passed away about six years ago, and I went to his funeral, and there were so many more people there. There were people that, like, I hardly remembered, like, people, I was so surprised, and I was talking to them, and I was like,

you know, like, thank you for coming, and they would all say the same thing. They'd say, like, I loved talking to your dad. Right? That's why they showed up, is because they had this relation, they had a connection with him. Do you think it's because of... I think one thing human beings have, Charles,

is you're always making people feel something. Yeah. Yet, I think most people are oblivious to that fact. They're feeling something from you in a moment. Your interest level, your energy, your frequency, your trustworthiness, your ability to elevate them. So do you think with your dad, for example, it wasn't just talking with him,

but it's how he made other people feel? That's exactly what it was. So sometimes when people ask me, how do you define a super communicator? The easiest answer is to say, okay, think of the person you would call if you were having a bad day, right? Like you're having a terrible day,

there's someone you call, you know they're gonna make you feel better. Like who would that person be for you? It would have been my dad, for sure, before he passed away. That came right to me, call my dad. And my guess is that if I met your dad, what I would see is he's not the funniest person in your life, he's not the most charismatic person

in your life, but what he did is he's not the funniest person in your life. He's not the most charismatic person in your life. But what he did is he proved to you that he was listening to you, that he heard what you said. And then he reciprocated your vulnerability or your joy or your sadness. He shared it with you. And as a result, you walked away feeling like what I'm experiencing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, this is profound and this is real.

You're right. And it's been validated. And you don't need your dad to validate it. Like, it's still real to you. But to have someone else feel like, have them feel like they genuinely wanna understand you, that feels wonderful. In fact, it's hardwired into our brain to feel wonderful.

Yeah. I just did this and I did a podcast on it. So I'll ask you this, how much of communication do you think is actually the ability to listen correctly? A huge amount, a huge amount. So, and let me say that there's this thing about listening which is when I'm talking, whatever you're doing, I'm probably not gonna pay attention to it.

Because it's so cognitively intense to try and speak That even though I'm gonna make eye contact with you and and I'm gonna kind of notice if you're frowning or smiling or whatever It is I'm really not gonna pick up on the signals you're sending me So listening is not just hearing what the person is saying. It's what you do after they finish talking Because if you do this thing where you prove to me that you've been listening and and in the psychology literature This is actually referred to as looping for understanding. Okay, that particularly if you have a conflict with someone the best way to sort of Bring the tension down is ask a question

Repeat back what you hear the person says in your own words And then step number three, which is the one we usually forget is ask them if you got it, right? Hmm, and if I do that, so when you think about it, so I'm listening to you, I have to listen closely to you because I need to I'm thinking I got to repeat back what you're saying in my own words, I got to process it. But most importantly, you know that I've been listening based on what I say after you're done speaking. And that's really what active listening is. It's about not just passively receiving. It's about amplifying. Very good.

That is really good. It's, I mean, and the thing is it's so easy to do. Like once I learned this, like I find myself doing it all the time without even realizing it. Like I'll be like, what I hear you saying is, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong. And like, it just feels so natural.

Like it feels totally out of mouth. It feels so good to have somebody say that back to you, right? Because that you do get the feeling with most people I think they do two things one They're really more concerned with what they're about to say back to you Yes, and two I call them verbal nudges where they're interrupting you too often or uh-huh Uh-huh, uh-huh, which you think is a form of agreement, but I think to some extent sometimes you're almost saying I got it Okay, can I say something now? Yeah, that's exactly nudging them to finish rather than letting them finish That's it

I think that's exactly true and I think that part of this is understanding what the goal of a conversation is Okay, so it's easy to go into a conversation and think the goal is to To convince this person I'm right or maybe even the goal is just to come to agreement on something That's wrong. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand what the other person is trying to tell you So that means that if I'm listening to you and you say something that I think is crazy Look, you wouldn't say this but if you're but lizard people run the world or whatever it is it if I I'm not gonna agree with you and I'm probably not gonna convince you that you're wrong

But as long as I understand how you see the world, as long as I ask you a question, what's known as a deep question, where I say like, why is this important? Like, what is it about this that seems really meaningful and important to you? You're gonna tell me something about who you are, I'm gonna repeat back what you've told me about like,

I care about lizard people because I really think the elites of this world are like having this pernicious effect on the working class. I'm gonna repeat that back to you. I'm gonna ask you if I got it right. I'm not gonna agree with you and you're not gonna agree with me, but simply understanding each other means we have succeeded

and it feels good, right? It does. I'm just thinking of like political discourse, you know, like just really understand where they're coming from. I'm not gonna win this. I have to tell you, your work's so good because it's actually the part of conversations, I think it's why I have a podcast.

I really enjoy not only understanding what somebody's saying, but also why they're saying it. What's this come from? I'm in an Uber. I basically interview almost every Uber driver I ever have. But I love that by the end of a good 20 or 30 minute ride, I find out where these belief systems stem from too. I was in one recently where this guy was way right,

like way, way right. And no matter what you believe politically, but I mean, I was like, whoa, and I'm like trying to understand and trying to understand. And I've also had this conversation with someone who's way left, but it ended up that at the end, I found out that he had come from a communist country,

he had actually had family that were murdered by communists, and whether I agreed with him or not, that's not the point of this show, but I actually had a much deeper understanding of the basis from which he's formed these opinions, and I really felt connected with this person. Absolutely. So you're right. Okay, so let me ask you a question, if you don't mind.

Sure. So when you're in that Uber, when you're having that, what's the second or third question you ask? Cause you could be like, hey, you know, where are you from? Oh, I'm from Europe. Like, what are you asking next to get you from the shallow to the deep? Oh, that's a really good question.

I usually ask them, I open them up a little bit. I say, give me your craziest story. Oh, interesting. So I actually ask them to give me one of their crazy ride stories. I'm actually fascinated by that. So it kind of opens them up and they get loose. I didn't do it tactically, but I found that like, wow, you're kidding me.

That, do that. And then typically for me, just because I'm most intrigued by it, I love to know about people's families. And I actually also think people love to talk about their families typically too. So usually I'll ask them, are you married? Do you have children? And I know that sounds like basic stuff, but I find for me that that's an entree into learning an awful lot about these folks What I love about that is that what I and I think you got this by intuition is

Is that so these deep questions if we ask people deep questions Deep questions are things that ask us about our values our beliefs or our experiences So what's the craziest ride you've ever given someone is asking this guy about his experiences. Very good, okay. Tell me about your kids. What are your kids like? At some point, he could just be like, I have two kids,

but at some point you're probably going to say, oh, do they like school? What do they like? Where do they go to school? Are you worried about their future? You're going to ask something that's going to get him to reveal to you who he really is. You're right, and by the way,

I always look at people like, this is an overall belief system. This person's a gift, I wanna open them up. It's really how I look at them. And in this guy's case, I just gotta tell you, in this guy's case, really quick, just an interjection, this dude was amazing. It turns out that the reason he's driving Uber

is he has a daughter at Harvard and a son at Stanford, right? And he's putting them through school. And if you knew where this man came from, it was remarkable. And the pride he had in his children and his wife and that they had raised them and they were there. And it became this like really beautiful conversation where not only did I admire, I was like, whoa, this is incredible. The life you've built, the sacrifice you're making. and you had a full-time day job, drove, and it became kind of this conversation. We talked about our children, and by the time I was done,

I actually really had a connection with this man that I probably want, I'm talking about him on my podcast. Yeah, right. So let me ask you this. Okay. The details of the work, guys, we're gonna get into now.

There are really three conversation types, okay? I didn't know there were, I was kind of oblivious to this, but I think just this alone would enlighten people so they know which conversation they're in and they can identify it. So share some of that. This is a big discovery from the last decade and we're kind of living through this golden age

of understanding communication for the first time in a new way. And the first thing that researchers have found is that we think of a discussion as being about one thing. We're talking about my book, or we're talking about your kids. But actually, every conversation is made up, every discussion is made up of different kinds

of conversations that ebb and flow. And most of those different kinds of conversations fall into one of three buckets. There's a practical conversation, where we're talking about plans, or making decisions together, or we're fixing problems. Politics is often this.

There's an emotional conversation, where if I tell you how I'm feeling about something, I do not want you to fix it for me. I want you to acknowledge that you've heard it, and I want you to tell me to sort of be vulnerable with me. And then there's a social conversation. And a social conversation is about how we relate to each other in society,

how we think other people see us, how our identities, right? How our identities shape how we see the world in different and interesting ways. And the key is, there's this thing known as the matching principle, which is, if I'm having an emotional conversation and you respond with a practical conversation,

even though both of what we're saying is legit, we're not gonna hear each other. That is outstanding. This happens at home, like I, with my spouse all the time. I come home, I've had a tough day at work, I'm complaining about my boss, my wife says, she solves the problem. She says, why don't you go and like take him out to lunch

and get to know each other better. And instead of being like, that's really good advice, I'm like, you don't understand, you're not listening to me. Very good, Charles. So if she matches me and then invites me to match her, then we're having the same kind of conversation. Then we can hear each other. You just explained 25 years of problems.

No, because I'm coming home to an emotional conversation and I'm not in one sometimes. What advice would you give to somebody who, we were talking about socially, I just moved and you were asking about the move. And I said, I kind of revert back to myself socially. And I think I would categorize myself, it would surprise most people who listen to the show,

but I'm very quiet and very shy and I find a lot of public speakers are by the way a lot of entertainers privately are very I'd call an introvert Yeah, you have any advice for an introvert as it comes to communication like this So I think one of the things I heard you just say when you're talking about that uber driver is You got into the car. Yeah, and he had one identity, which is right wing. And you asked him some deep questions that were easy to ask, like they didn't seem intimate. And he started telling you about his other identities.

And once he complicated himself, once he said like, look, I'm not just one thing, I'm three and four and five things, all of a sudden it's easy to feel close to that person because some of those things he is, you are too. And so I think when it comes to introverts or when you move to a new place, like one of the things that I like to do

is you meet someone at a party or a barbecue or whatever it is, and like I often ask them, you know, what do you do for a living? And then I'll often say, you know, they say, I'm a lawyer and I say, you know, do you love practicing the law? Like, did you just, what made you decide to become a lawyer? Like, when was the moment you decided to become a lawyer?

What inevitably they say is something that tells me about their other identities, which is, I became a lawyer because I saw my dad get arrested and I wanted to fight for the underdog. Or I became a lawyer because we were poor and I wanted to always have enough money. Or I became a lawyer because we were poor and I wanted to always have enough money, or I became a lawyer because I love intellectual stimulation. Like think of those, those three answers just told me

so much about those different people. And at that point I can say to them, yeah, I grew up poor too, like I understand what that's like. And now suddenly we feel safe with each other. I think this isn't necessarily true for introverts, but when we're in new social situations and we were talking about how hard it is to make friends when you don't have friends in a place,

the thing that often stops us is just a little mild anxiety. You're right. Oh, at least mild with me. Yeah, yeah. At least mild with me. And how are we gonna start the conversation? How are we gonna get out of the conversation? How like okay, that's mine. Okay. No, I'm okay open in a conversation

How are you, you know? Yeah for me. It's how does this end? How does this end? I bet everybody driving or lists these rights like now that's something I would like to know more about I have the most awkward finishes of conversations of any dude you've ever met in your life. I'm like, okay, well, hey. And I usually end up the conversation with some sort of BS or something. You're like, I'm gonna use the restroom or whatever. I don't know how to get away from you.

I have to go refresh my glass. I'm still half that full. So, okay, so actually Daniel Gilbert at Harvard actually did an entire study trying to figure out how people end conversations. And does the other person want to end at the same time you do? And what he found was two things. Number one, he found that you think

I want you to end the conversation, because I'm getting bored, and actually, I am enjoying this conversation. We do a difficult job of gauging the other person's interest in the conversation. But then sometimes we want to end the conversation, right? And so this is what super communicators do. Okay.

They forecast it without committing to it immediately. So they say something like, Oh man, this is so interesting. I totally got to go like freshen up my drink. But before I do, like let me ask you like X. Because oftentimes the end of the conversation feels hard because it feels awkward. But if you've already set the table and you're like, I gotta step away,

but this is so fascinating, let me ask you one more thing. Then when they're done answering the question, you're like, oh man, thank you so much. And you just turn away, that's not awkward. I love that, that's pre-framing the conclusion. That's exactly right. Very good. That's exactly right. A lot of what you're saying I'm listening is,

it has to do with the questions you're asking I think a lot of people look at conversations or communication like what am I telling somebody? What am I saying? And I'm sure there's an element of that that we'll get to in a minute, too But so far a lot of the things you've been suggesting involve questions You're asking somebody and I have to say this to you I'm amazed how many people I talk to you and social environments and business environments that don't ask that any questions? I know I know and and I can't figure out I think that for some of them

They're just not practiced at it and it is like that's the thing about super communication anyone can be a super communicator It's literally just a set of skills like you just have to practice the skills and make them into habits Nobody's born knowing how to do this. But I have the same, it drives me crazy. I ask question after question, and then they answer and then they stop talking and they're waiting for my next question. I'm like, does there any,

so here's the thing, here's the thing that you're exactly right. 50% if not more of a good conversation is asking good questions. But then something happens, there's a difference between a conversation and an interrogation, right, or an interview. And this gets into what's known as emotional reciprocity.

And emotional reciprocity is basically one of the strongest impulses that all humans have. If somebody engages in emotional reciprocity, we can't help but feel a little bit closer and a little bit more trusting of them. So emotional reciprocity, we can't help but feel a little bit closer and a little bit more trusting of them. So emotional reciprocity says, if you say something vulnerable, and then I recognize, I acknowledge that vulnerability,

but I also show that I can be vulnerable, then we're going to feel like we can trust each other. And that's about speaking. So that doesn't mean if you say, my dad passed away, I should be like, oh, I understand completely because my aunt passed away 12 years ago. That's stealing the spotlight from you, right? But if you say, my dad passed away and I say,

oh man, I know how hard that can be. Tell me about your dad, what was he like? Oh gosh, that was good. Right? And then what I'm signaling to you is, A, I'm interested in you, I wanna hear from you, I wanna understand you, but B, you learned something about me.

And if you're interested, you can say like, tell me how you know about this, like what happened? What about being the server first, serving the vulnerability first? Absolutely, absolutely. There's a guy named Nick Epley at the University of Chicago who's in the book. And like, Nick is so good at this.

Every conversation I've ever had with him, he says something in the conversation, near the start of the conversation, that feels so intimate. And as a result, I'm just like, I love this guy. Like, I just wanna talk to him. And again, when I look at the transcripts, because I'm oftentimes talking to him for reporting,

and when I read the transcript, it doesn't seem too intimate, it doesn't seem overly intimate, but he says things like, you know, hey Nick, how are you doing? Like instead of saying, oh fine, says something like, yo, it's great, I like went to my son's soccer game this weekend,

and like we adopted these kids from Ethiopia, and like just watching them now as these like strong young men. It was a great weekend. Brother, you're on it. Right. And he's offered that up. And at that point, I'm like, man, I'll tell you all about myself.

Let me tell you about me. I think I also trust you more when you do that. I think when someone so surface all the time, and by the way, this applies for a lot of you that are in sales too. Yes. Being willing to be a little bit vulnerable, not always the expert, but a little bit vulnerable, a little bit transparent, a little bit revealing. I believe, one, I think it's just a better way to live,

but it does bond and connect you. It makes you human. Oftentimes when you're in sales, people look at you like you're almost their adversary, like I can't trust this guy or this lady. But when you begin to show some vulnerability and some authenticity, I think that's when you don't start to break down the barriers and I found that in my own life. Absolutely. Over and over. Trust is huge, right? I mean

so, so we have communication is humans superpower, like it's the reason as a species we have been so successful is that we can talk to each other and we can build, we can share knowledge, we can build families and communities. All of that is based on communication. And communication over the millennia has been hardwired into our brain. And so as a result, when somebody communicates well with me,

I trust them because I literally have two million years of evolution in my head that says, trust the guy who it seems like can, wants to understand you, and that is sharing with you. I agree. This is so good. This is probably gonna go a little longer than normal guys.

No, I love it. I really love this, right? I just think, I hope those of you that are listening or watching understand the importance in your life, as I said earlier, of getting good at this because it's the cap on your bliss, it's the cap on your laughter,

it's the cap on your intimacy, it's the cap on your influence and persuasion. Yeah, absolutely. What about difficult conversations? Yeah. Are those different in nature? And are they, I mean, having to say, listen, your job performance isn't very good,

or I'm frustrated with you, or something that's, you're going into it, no, gosh, I wish I didn't have to have this conversation, but I do. Yeah, or sometimes they catch you off guard, right? Where like, I'm talking about one thing, and all of a sudden I realize you're furious at me. Like I didn't pick up on that until just now. And so the answer is, they abide by the same rules,

but the fact that you're in conflict changes the context enormously, because we were just talking about trust, right? I can establish trust by sharing something about myself. But if you go into a conversation where there's conflict, trust is already out the window, right? Like you're fight or flight is going off in your head like crazy, you can't trust someone easily

just because they ask you a question. So, and this has been a focus of a lot of study, how do we make conversations in conflict better? And there's basically two things. The first one is, I mentioned this looping for understanding, right? Asking a question, repeating back what you heard, and then asking if you got it right.

That's enormously powerful in conflict. Because the first thing, the first suspicion I have, if you disagree with me and we're in conflict with each other is you're waiting your turn to speak. You're not hearing what I'm saying, right? You're just waiting there and like, I'm gonna tell you my piece and then you're gonna just bulldoze over me

and I'm gonna bulldoze back. So if you interrupt that by proving you are listening, using looping for understanding to prove, I really wanna understand what you're saying, help me understand, I'm taking a huge amount of mistrust off the table. The second thing that often happens in conflict, and this happens a lot in marriages,

this actually comes from marriage therapy, and studies of marriage therapy, is that it is natural when we feel threatened to want to control things. And the easiest thing to control is the other person. So you tell me your thing and I'm like, no, no, no, you don't know the evidence. Let me show you the evidence.

You say something and you're like, I'm not even going to listen to this. I try and control you. I try and tell you what you should believe, what you should feel. That's toxic, right? In a marriage, that is the thing that destroys a marriage. The alternative is, I have a need for control,

you have a need for control, we feel threatened. Can we find things to control together? So, for instance, can we control the timing of this fight? Instead of having it at two in the morning, can we wait till it's 10 a. Instead of having it at two in the morning, can we wait till it's 10 a.m. and we're both a little bit more rested? Very good.

Can we control ourselves? Can I let you know, I'm gonna take a second before I speak and I'm gonna think about what you just said. Can I show you that I'm trying to control myself and invite you to control yourself? And the third thing is, we can control the boundaries of the conflict itself. So one of the most toxic patterns in marriages

is this thing called kitchen sinking, where we start arguing about like, where we're gonna go for New Year's, and then like five minutes later it's like, and your mother hates me and you don't earn enough money, and like, why are you such a jerk all the time, right? So a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything. The healthy way to do that is to say,

we need to have a fight, like we have a disagreement on something, let's control the boundaries of it. We're talking about New Year's Eve. If my mother comes up and your money comes up, like we're just gonna set it aside, that's another conversation another day. But then when we're controlling these three things,

we're controlling ourselves, we're controlling the environment, and we're controlling the boundaries of the fight, or the conflict, we're controlling those as partners. Right, we're on the same side of the table. We might not agree on the topic we're discussing, but you and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight

instead of trying to control each other. That's outstanding. When you're talking about relationships and family, we're my, first off, I've made those mistakes. Me too. I'm a pretty good kitchen sinker now that you term it that way. And so I think I've gotten better at it.

I also think the longer you're with somebody, you have more stuff in the sink. And so it's even more important to avoid that and have that control of the parameters around the conversation. Right, how long have you been married for? 26 years. Okay, so I'm coming up on 20.

And I'm sure this has happened to you, but tell me if I'm getting this wrong, which is there are these things, literally I can say two words, and I know the entire fight in my wife's head. Right, it's like, and sometimes I don't even mean to say them, I'm just like, I'm like, well, you know, it's cause like I earn more money than you

and then I'm like, oh, nuts. Like I just stepped in it, like all, to kitchen sink it, all I had to say was literally three words. You brought the whole sink. Yeah, and so the immediate thing I do is I'm like, I'm like, I'm sorry. Whoops, right, exactly. Yeah, I did not mean to do that.

Like, tell me what you're feeling because I wanna give you a chance, but like. You know what, I've gotten better at that Charles with my kids too, of saying, you know what, I'm sorry, let me take that right back. Whereas before I'd almost double down or they didn't really feel it that bad. It'll be brushed under and no,

sometimes you just have to, in the moment, go, I'm gonna yank that one back. And not only are you connecting with them, but think about the modeling you're doing. You're teaching them how to communicate with other people. Like, I'm absolutely certain your kids are gonna copy that without even realizing it comes from Dad. Yeah. You're making me think of young people

when you say that. I want you to give you... Can we teach this to young people? I'll tell you why I ask. Yeah. I have great conversations with my kids. Bella, don't take this the wrong way, sweetheart, when you're that, I want you to give, can we teach this to young people? I'll tell you why I ask. I have great conversations with my kids. Bella, don't take this the wrong way, sweetheart, when you're listening to this. But lately with my daughter, I love doing kind of dates with my daughter and I.

She's a sophomore in college. And I watch her with other people, she's quite the conversationalist. But with me, and she's not disinterested, but when we're talking, there's a lot of, yep, yeah, right, uh-huh. And at one point, we were taking a walk on the beach over Christmas and I said, Bella,

this is kind of a serve and volley type thing here. Like I serve and you return the serve and then I hit the ball back to you and you hit it back to me, to your point of ask me something. Right. You know, so it made me wonder, is there anything different,

and maybe she's not even quite at that age I'm talking about, but if I have an eight, a nine, a 10-year-old, I'm always blown away when I meet a child who is a tremendous communicator, makes eye contact, shakes her hand. Mr. Mylett, how are you? What do you do? Like when they ask, I'm like, automatically what I think,

these are great parents. Yes. I think immediately, these are tremendous parents. So. I think immediately these are tremendous parents. So is there anything with young people that these skills can be taught? Anything unique that you would say that goes with young people? Absolutely, so I think that there's two things.

Let's talk about the older kids first, like your daughter's age. So I had a friend whose daughter just went to college and he had a conversation with her before he left, which I've now imitated and I love. He sat down with her and he was like, look, you're definitely gonna call us when something important happens in your life.

But if that's the only time you call, then by definition, you're not calling us that frequently. Like we're gonna lose contact with each other. So what I want you to do is I want you to call me for the unimportant things. You had a bad day, but it's not a big deal. You ate something good for lunch. You're working on this paper and it's kind of interesting

You know, we don't have to talk for more than five or seven minutes, right? But I want you to call me and tell me about the unimportant stuff because the important stuff will take care of its on of itself and That and and so my son went off to boarding school. He's at boarding school right now here in California and it's his first year there He's in 10th grade and I told him this he calls me every day I'm at boarding school right now here in California, and it's his first year there. He's in 10th grade, and I told him this. He calls me every day. I actually talk more to this kid with him at boarding school

than I did when he was at home. Yes. So for older kids, that's the thing, is to say this is a priority. Like, conversation is something none of us are born super communicators. We can all learn how to do it. This is a skill you should practice, because it's important. For the younger kids, it's a little bit harder, right?

Yes. But I think for them, this is where the deep questions become so powerful. So my younger one, same thing, how was school today? Good. Right. What'd you learn?

Nothing, right? Like, so, and so some of the advice is like, be like, oh, well, you know, did pirates show up today? And you can do that a couple of times. But at some point, if you ask them a question where you're asking them to tell you who they are, like, I know that you said that you like science more than you like math.

I'm just wondering, like, why? Like, what is it, was it about science? Like, I mean, is science important to you? Like, you told me you wanted to hang out with your friend, and I'm just wondering, like, why? Like, what is it, was it about science? Like, I mean, is science important to you? Like, you told me you wanted to hang out with your friend and I'm just wondering, like, what is it, what do you like about that friend? Like, what is special to him? What's great about that is that, first of all,

it's clearly not judgmental, right? Whereas if I'm like, what'd you learn today? I'm kind of judging. Good point. You better, you should have learned something today. Very good point. But second of all, I'm matching him and I'm allowing him to set the stage.

It's not that he's playing on my ball court. I'm saying to him, tell me your ball court. And that's powerful. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. that we're trying our best to make sense of everything. And in this crazy world, that is not always easy. And BetterHelp can help you with that.

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That's BetterHelp. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. You know, as your kids get older, some things about parenting get easier. You know, you can kind of reason with them once they can talk a little bit. Maybe they begin to pick up after themselves. But other things don't, like having that conversation about money. The fact is kids won't really know how to manage their money until they're actually in charge of it. So the sooner you do it the better and

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Slash Ed that's green light comm slash ed to try green light today green light comm slash ed You do a lot of gestures when you talk. Oh, yeah, I don't know if you noticed that well to try Greenlight today. Greenlight.com slash Ed. You do a lot of gestures when you talk. Oh yeah? I don't know if you noticed that. Well, you're expressive in your face. This may not even be in the book, but I wanna ask you about it.

So you're expressive with your face, you use your hands, and I'm wondering if nonverbal cues are part of being a super communicator. Because I've had people say, I'm really excited to be here. And I'm like, you should tell your face. You should email your face and let them know that you're excited to be here.

So I think a lot of it is, I'm reading things you're not saying when I talk to somebody as well. Yeah, and I think that's exactly right. And to be super communicator, you don't have to have nonverbal, right? Because there's people who, like, on the phone are fantastic. If you're good at one thing, you're usually good at everything.

OK. But similarly with you, like you clearly telegraph non-verbally or non-linguistically, you telegraph your interest. You telegraph what you're hearing. And that's very, very powerful. And there's kind of a science behind it. And we've learned a lot of it from looking at laughter.

So the interesting thing about laughter is, studies show that about 80% of the time when all of us laugh, it is not in response to something funny. Okay. Right, so we've laughed a couple of times in this interview, but I haven't said anything that funny.

Right? You're like, you just laughed. I'm not that funny a guy. So what happens when we laugh? What a laugh actually is, is it's saying to the other person, I want to connect with you. I'm going to show you that I want to connect with you. And then when they laugh back, The laugh actually is, is it's saying to the other person, I wanna connect with you. I'm gonna show you that I wanna connect with you.

And then when they laugh back, and 90% of the time when I laugh, the person I'm talking to will laugh back, they're saying, I wanna connect back. That's tremendous. So that's a non-linguistic communication. And what I love is actually NASA, for a time, used this.

I was gonna ask you this, I'm so glad. So they were trying to figure out how to find emotionally intelligent astronauts. Yeah, you're going to. And like the problem is, everyone who applies to be an astronaut, if you make it to the final stages, you're like a golden boy or girl, right?

Like. 1000%. Yeah, you know how to answer every question, you've practiced everything, and they're like, we can't figure out who's actually emotionally intelligent and who fakes it really, really well. But when they're in space on a six month mission, the difference is gonna matter a lot.

Huge, yeah. So this one psychologist, he started realizing, if I pay attention to how people laugh, most importantly, do they match my laughter? So he would come into a room and he would accidentally spill papers accidentally. He actually did it on purpose. And then he would laugh uproariously

and he would watch what the candidate would do. Some candidates would be like, ha ha, cause you know you're supposed to laugh, right? And then other people would be like, ha ha, let me help you with that. Like I, the astronauts who matched him, not just on laughter, but he would tell a sad story and see if the other person,

if the other person empathizes, if they engaged in reciprocity, if they asked him questions about it. So that's non-linguistic, but it tells us whether that person wants to connect. And that's ultimately, I think when I'm making gestures, I'm inviting you to, I'm inviting you in, right? I'm saying like, like here I am, like I want you to see what I'm inviting you to, I'm inviting you in, right? I'm saying like, like here, here I am.

Like I want you to see what I'm seeing. I hope what everybody's getting out of this is like, these are skills that can be learned. There's an art and a science to this. You said, I'm glad you asked, I was gonna ask you about the NASA thing. You also said emotional intelligence. So I just feel like that's at the root

of what we're talking about here. So how big of a component is just being sort of I think also let me say this Emotionally aware is another word that I would use as well emotionally aware as a part of having emotional intelligence you agree with that Absolutely, so I this phrase emotional intelligence is actually kind of a misnomer because it makes us think it's like IQ Right, we're either born with it or you're not, but it's not. Emotional intelligence is emotional awareness. If I say to myself, and I train myself to say, a priority is noticing when someone else

is feeling something and matching that, and giving them the space for that. That is emotional intelligence. That's the thing that's gonna make it feel like you understand them, that you can empathize with them. And it's... It's not hard, right? It's just about making it a priority. Yeah. There's in the book a lot of examples of that.

There's actually just great stories in the book. Give me one, because I want them to get the book, so I don't want to do the whole book, but give me one story from the book that's sort of illustrative of just, you thought it was one of the more interesting stories get the book, so I don't want to do the whole book, but give me one story from the book that's sort of illustrative of just, you thought it was one of the more interesting stories in the book, so they haven't understood,

because what's great about the way Charles writes at this book is that there's like points and tactics, and then I like the story to sort of reinforce it. For me, facts tell, stories sell. I remember stories, and so I like the way that you weave these into the work. And that's why there's so many stories in there It's because it's there's so much easier to remember. So one of my favorite stories is

Is early in the book. It's about Jim Lawler the CIA agent So Jim Jim is this guy who I've talked to a number of times. He's awesome. He He became a CIA officer when he was in his 30s and he wanted this so bad He like he struggled for the like, and he wanted this so bad. He, like, he struggled for the, like, he just ran after this so hard. It was like, he was desperate to be a CIA officer. They accept him, they send him off to training, and then they send him to Europe to recruit foreign assets,

and he finds out he's the worst recruiter on Earth. Like, literally, he would go to, like, parties, and he's, and, like, he couldn't make conversation. He would, like, try and buddy up with people, and they're like You're a spy aren't you you're trying to get me to be a spy They're like I'm gonna report you to the to the authorities you're gonna get deported So he's like freaking out because he's like I'm terrible at this and then someone in his in his office says look

There's this woman coming into town. She's from the Middle East. She works for the Foreign Ministry Why don't you get to know her a little bit and see if there's anything there? She works for the foreign ministry. Why don't you get to know her a little bit and see if there's anything there? So he bumps into her at a restaurant the next day, right? Bumps. And he introduces himself as an oil speculator, strikes up a conversation,

takes her to lunch the next day. They start sightseeing together. He sort of develops a little bit of a relationship. He goes and he says to his boss, I think I'm recruiting this woman. I think she's gonna be an asset for us. And then his boss is like, that's fantastic. I'm glad to hear it.

He goes, he has dinner with this woman, Fatima. And he says, I'm not an oil speculator. I work for the CIA. Now Fatima had been telling him, she comes from a, he never told me which nation, but it's pretty obvious which one it is. She comes from a nation that recently had a religious theocracy revolution.

And so the fundamentalists have all taken over, and she hates it. She's like, they're making women wear hijabs, or telling us we can't go to college. I want to fight this, but I don't know how. And so Jim Lawler says to her, the most practical thing possible. He's like, we want the same thing you do.

Like, we want to free the people of your country. We want to empower women. do. Like we want, we want to free the people of your country. We want to empower women. Work for me for the CIA. And she grabs a table and starts shaking her head and she starts crying and she goes, no, no, I'm not gonna do it. And just has a meltdown.

And she says, they kill people in my country for doing this. I cannot believe that you have put me at risk simply by striking up a friendship. Because if they ever find out you're in the CIA, they're going to think I'm in the CIA. And she just bolts. And Lawler's like, ah, I'm terrible at this. I'm such a bad recruiter.

So he goes back to his boss, and he tells him what happened. His boss is like, dude, I already told Washington, DC, you recruited her as a spy. Like, you're gonna get fired if you can't close the deal on this. This is your last chance. That's why we gave it to you. So Jim spends all this time trying to figure out

how do I, what do I do? And he keeps on calling Fatima and eventually she picks up and he invites her to go to dinner a couple of nights before she's gonna fly back home. And she says yes, because he says he's taken to an expensive restaurant and he has a notebook full Full of ideas on how to convert her and he knows none of them are gonna work. Mm-hmm. Like you cannot Trick someone into taking a suicidal risk, right? Right. It's gonna... So he goes to dinner and she's really down because she's like, you know, I came to Europe,

I thought I was gonna learn something about how to... how to be more myself or how to change the world and I'm just going home and I'm the same person. And what he starts trying to do is cheer her up. He tells her little stories. He reminisces about when they, you know, went sightseeing together. And she just gets more and more glum.

And finally, dessert comes, and... they're kind of by themselves at the table, and Jim thinks to himself, like, should I try to, like, recruit her again? And he's like, if I do that, she's literally gonna stand up and walk away. So what he decides to do is he decides, like, this isn't gonna work. I'm giving up

I'm just gonna have a real conversation. I'm gonna be honest and he starts saying to her Look, I know how you feel because I feel exactly the same way I like I wanted this job my entire life and it turns out I'm terrible at it. I am so disappointed in myself And I don't know how I'm gonna go home and tell my dad that, like, I failed. I got fired by the CIA. And he talks this way. Now, what he's doing, obviously,

without even realizing it, is he's matching her. He's matching. Right? She was glum, and he was trying to cheer her up. That's not matching. Yep. He was matching her, and she's listening to this, and she starts crying, and he's like, I'm such a jerk.

And then the CIA, you have to report every conversation. So he's gonna have to write up a memo and he's like, those guys are gonna fire me within seconds. Like they're just gonna laugh. And he reaches over and he pats her arm and he's like, I'm so sorry. I did not mean to make you cry. I am sorry.

And she says, no, no, I think I can do this. Wow. And then, and he's so inexperienced. He actually, the first thing's out of his mouth is like, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. Like you don't have to, no, I think I can do this. And then, and he's so inexperienced. He actually, the first thing's out of his mouth is like, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. Like you don't have to, like, cause he wasn't trying to manipulate her. He was just trying to-

He finally wasn't. Yeah, he finally wasn't trying to manipulate her. And he's like, no, no, no, I don't want to put you at risk. You don't have to do it. And she's like, she says, no, no, what you want is important. I think we can do this together. So for the first time she was able to hear him.

She was able to hear all those things that he had said over weeks and weeks and weeks about helping the women of her country. She couldn't hear it until he matched her. Next day, she goes to a safe house. She gets trained in covert communications and other stuff. She's the best source in the Middle East for the next 20 years.

Unbelievable. And Jim Lawler becomes one of the top recruiters in the Middle East for the next 20 years. Unbelievable. And Jim Lawler becomes one of the top recruiters in the entire CIA. He teaches it today. It's one of the best stories ever. I love that story. I'm gonna pick it apart a little so people understand the dynamic in there.

So when you say matching, was it that she was in an emotional conversation and he wasn't? Is that what you mean by that? That's a huge part of it. He was also vulnerable. But he was also vulnerable. So she was, not only was she in an emotional conversation,

but he was listening to the type of. So she was... Not only was she in an emotional conversation, but he was listening to the type of emotion that she was transmitting, right? Instead of saying, like, oh, you shouldn't feel bad, I'm gonna cheer you up. He was saying, like, look, you feel bad. Like, let's just acknowledge that. And that matching feels good.

Because it feels like someone's hearing us. I think it's a huge thing. I don't ever like saying gender-specific stuff, because I don't believe it, but I do think by and large those two elements women are better at naturally, meaning I think they're more naturally vulnerable in a conversation than a man can be.

I just, and I don't even like saying this, but I just, I think in general most people would agree with me. And then secondly, I think men try to fix things often, more often so that when there is an emotional conversation and we just wanna fix it or solve the problem or be the savior or be valuable or be important rather than just be with somebody and acknowledge their emotions.

And it's not always men and women, right? Sure, it's not. It's definitely not, but it's more prevalent, I think. And I think what's happening there is we're falling back on what feels comfortable to us. Right, it is for sure. So if you're saying something emotional and I get super practical and it pisses you off,

it's not so much that like, I actually think we should be practical, it's that I'm uncomfortable with emotion. There you go. And so I'm going back to my safe place. There you go. And actually, that safe place is emotional, right? Like the reason I'm trying to solve your problem

is like, it really bothers me that you're upset. I don't know how to deal with the fact that you're upset. I wanna make you feel better. I feel like that's my job, and I feel like I'm letting you down and myself down. Like, that is emotional, right? You're right, a million percent. I'm just disguising it as a practical conversation

because that's my safe space. That's my pattern. That's how I hide. Yeah. That's a zillion percent right. I told you we're gonna go a conversation because that's my safe space. That's my pattern. That's how I hide. That's a zillion percent right. I told you we're gonna go a bit long, so we're gonna. Absolutely. Okay, let me ask you this.

This is a hard one. And so I keep using the term nonverbal. I've used that. Let me couch it a little differently. Okay. Literally nonverbal. So types of communication that are not done verbally. Meaning, meaning.

Mail. Mail, written, email, text, whatever. I have found for me, if I'm transparent with people, I feel like I'm a pretty darn good verbal communicator. I've also found my friends that are hyperverbal people in general, again, another generality, aren't so good in the written word. And for some reason, when I write or text, it comes across as harsh, curt, sometimes aloof.

My writing style does not make the impact in text or email that my verbal style does. And I'm really not very good at that. So what about tips or keys on that? So what's going on there? So it's interesting, If we were having this conversation about 100 years ago, a little bit under 100 years ago, when phones first became popular,

what we would be talking about, and there were all these articles that said this, no one will ever be able to communicate on the telephone well. Because unless you can see someone, you're not going to figure out what's going on in their voice. Telephone communication is basically going to be for sending over grocery orders. Now, telephone communication is basically gonna be for like, sending over like, grocery orders.

Now, you and I are both Gen X, right? Like, when we were kids, we were on the phone for like, seven hours a night. 100%. I can have, I have friendships where I only talk to the person on the phone. So do I, and I still remember the phone numbers of my friends when I was a kid.

I don't know anybody's phone number now, but I know Andy Queren's phone number. Yes, right? Right, it's like in there. Right, it's true. And so what's interesting is if we were to watch ourselves talking on the phone, what we would find is that we behave a little bit differently on the phone.

When you're on the phone, people tend to over-annunciate because they know that they can't see us, right? We tend to explain ourselves a little bit more, and when we make a joke, we laugh faster to let the other person know it's a joke. We know that they don't have the visual signal, and so we're trying to compensate by giving them more audio.

So, now the thing is, we've been talking on the phones for over 100 years, we've been communicating face to face for millennia. The first email was sent in 1982, right? Most people didn't get an email account until the late 90s. We basically have 20 years of learning how to communicate digitally. We have not, though the rules about how that channel

is different have not become intuitive yet. So the solution is we have to think about it more when we're texting or emailing. And we have to say to ourselves, okay, and these are the tips. When I am online and I'm communicating that way, politeness matters a lot more than when I'm face to face. And study after study has shown this,

that if you say please and thank you in an email, there's like 70% higher response rate. Okay. Because I need to signal it, right? Now, if I'm texting you, I can be short, but if I send you an email and I treat it like a text, unless we're good friends, like it's gonna rub you the wrong way, right?

So part of it is just saying, what are the rules for this particular channel? Because our instinct is to say, the rules for one channel is the rules for every channel. So we treat email and text and slack and Everything exactly the same way but the truth is if you just take a second you say like oh I don't have to say please necessarily in this text because it could be short, but every email I should like bend over backwards be a little bit more polite. It works wonders brother. I'm such a bad emailer

I I'm so lazy with emails. I sometimes don't even put my name at the end of it You know, I mean never mind to thank you I think I'm the worst emailer that's ever lived and I've had a lot of people even that I've worked with you know Even like in the podcast space with like man when I met you you're so nice and kind of read your emails. You're scary I didn't mean it that way. I'm just trying to get to the point so we could go do something else I thought email was the faster way, but you're a hundred percent, right? The rules of engagement, so to speak, are something that I've been oblivious to.

That right there was huge for me. And sometimes you can establish new rules, right? Like if you say to your employees, like, look, I just want you to know I'm gonna send you brusk emails because I'm moving a million miles an hour. You should not read anything into that. Now we know the rule. Well, now I've pre-framed it, but I don't do that.

And I treat everybody like they should know better, and they don't. And by the way, the worst thing I'll do is I'll get a nice, long six paragraph email, and I reply with like seven words. And I wonder why they feel dismissed. Yet in the conversation, that's my daughter. Yep, uh-huh, right?

That's the extent of my emails to people. So you're 1,000% right. My son texts me K. He doesn't even put OK. He just puts K. I'm like, how much lazier can you get? I relate to that. But that setting the ground rules, setting, like figuring out the rules together,

we can do that in a conversation too. So if we're talking about, say, race, right, which is a tough topic, if I start that conversation by saying, I'd like to talk to you about this, and I just want to acknowledge it will likely it will likely be awkward. Mm-hmm I will probably make mistakes and say things that I don't really not saying it the right way You're probably gonna make mistakes Like I think just as a ground rule like let's just say it's okay to say things and forgive each other

Very not getting it right. So now we've established that now all of a sudden that conversation about race feels so much easier. Right, we're both open, we're both vulnerable, we've both given ourselves some space to make a mistake and share our real thoughts. And the other thing is, if you don't create that space, then you're really not saying what you really think either and it's not an authentic exchange.

I agree, when you ask for permission. I'm gonna ask you two more things. Sure. Okay, you said earlier something about repeating back to someone, hey, what I'm gonna ask you two more things. Sure. Okay. You said earlier something about repeating back to someone, hey, what I think I heard you say was, let me understand this, right? I love that and totally agree.

So sorry, go ahead. Well, I want you to reply with that. And then also what about, the conversation has been over to me. When I think, when I feel the most listened to, you and I had lunch together, okay? And you did that. But 7.30 that night, I get a message from you.

You're gone, I'm gone. And you say, I just wanna tell you something. I enjoyed our conversation so much. And the way that you spoke about your wife or what you shared about blah, blah, blah. I just wanna tell you, it was so meaningful for me. To me, that's like what you suggested on steroids, that actually after the conversation has ended,

I come back later and say, not only have I listened to what you've suggested on steroids, that actually after the conversation has ended, I come back later and say, not only have I listened to what you said, but I've been thinking about what you said, and it made a difference to me. I just wanna share that I do that, and I think that's a way of me saying, I really value and appreciate what we discussed. And it feels so good.

I've gotten an email like that from you, and it felt really good to get it. And it was a great conversation, but to know that that it was meaningful to you and it's much like laughing It's you saying like I want to connect but you wanted to say something and I think I jumped in front of it Oh, I was just gonna talk about this looping for understanding these three. Yeah, so so looping for understanding There's three steps to it. You you ask a question. Hopefully a deep question Repeat back in your own words what you heard someone say. Okay. And then step number three, ask if you got it right.

Ask if you got it right. Because, and it's that third step that we often forget to do and is the most powerful. Okay. Because what I'm saying when I ask you if I got it right, and I do this all the time, I'm like, like, let me tell you what I hear you saying. And like, like, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is that we are saying to them, not only do I want to understand you, I acknowledge that I might've missed something

and you, you might have phrased it in a way that doesn't actually capture what you want. And so like, when someone says that to me, when they're like, tell me if I'm getting this right and they repeat back what I just said, I actually find it valuable as the speaker because I'm like, no, no, no, you, like I did a bad job of explaining like the thing

that like I really care about because you didn't pick up on it and you were listening. I need to get better at that and that feels good. That's outstanding. All right, last question. First off, let me say this. This is awesome. Oh, thank you.

And I, both times we've had to interact together like this, it flies by for me. And frankly, that's because you're a super communicator. As are you. Well, thank you. And the quality of your work, listen, guys, there's a lot of books. This man doesn't write a ton of them

because they're so good when he writes them. There's so much in here, even in today's podcast. I hope you understand the value of getting good at these, what I would call almost nuances that make all the difference in the world. So this is a broad question, just framing it differently. I wanna finish with it. And thank you for that, by the way.

It's true. My guest today is writing his 88th book, and he's also one of the greatest communicators who's ever lived. John Maxwell, welcome back to the show, brother. Ed, it's so good to be with you. You do something you talk about in the book, we might as well just start there. You have the ability to take really complicated things and make them seem simple. Yeah. And you talk about that as actually one of the laws in the book of being able to be a great communicator.

Is that something that you do, I'm sure you do it intentionally, but do you do it naturally? Well, I do it intentionally. Let me say this. I was a good student, but I wasn't a great student. And so a lot of times when I was in college or in a classroom, I would want the professor to break it down and make it much more simple. I would look around the room and I said, am I the only one that's having a hard time here

and not maybe grasping and learning like I need to? And so I really as a student, I worked on helping. When I would hear a talk, I would say, how could that be reduced so I can apply it to my life? And so it almost started as a student. And I learned to reduce things and bring them down and I tell people all the time, I'm a communicator not an educator. An educator takes something simple and makes it complicated.

That's just who they are. Honestly, if you're in the education world, if you're not confused, they're not pleased. You know what I'm saying? But then a communicator takes something complicated, makes it simple. And so my whole goal is to make things very palatable for people. One of the things I teach in the book is the fact that if you have to keep explaining what you just said, you haven't said it right the first time. I mean, and how many times we have a person explain and explain that.

Just sit there and think, why didn't you take some time on the front end to simplify this so that everybody can apply it to their life? And there are three, real quickly, there are three kind of, I take the simplistic, I start with simplistic, and simplistic is not good. It's fast and it's easy, but it's not really deep and helpful. And it's a half-truth, it's never a whole truth. So if I say things like, experience is the best teacher, that's a simplistic statement. But it's not true. If it were true, then as people got older, everybody would get better.

And I know a whole bunch of people, they're getting older, but they're not getting better. The experience isn't helping them at all. Although experience is not the best teacher, reflection and learning from that experience is the best teacher. So how do I get from experience as the best teacher to reflection and learning from experience as the best teacher? Well, you've got to go from simplistic to complicated

or complex. In other words, you've gotta go from simplistic to complicated or complex. In other words, you've gotta wrestle with the statements and you've gotta contextually take them from every angle until you can come to something that is really solid and something that is really true and something that really works. And so just as simplistic as easy and fast, you know, complex, complicated is slow and deep.

But once you come through that comp- and it takes a while to do that. Once you come through it, on the simple side now, it's fast, but it's deep. In other words, people can grab it real quick, but then they go home and they think about it, and they just can't get away from it. Like when you wrote the book, The Power of One More, that is so simple that you can grasp it immediately, but you can't, you have to spend a lot of time on it to work it out in your life. What a great point, yeah, what a great point. So here's the issue. I think in communication, when I was young,

when I was a young communicator, I saw that I had charisma and I saw that I could probably get by on stage with having fun with people and enjoying them and making them laugh. And I came to this decision, am I going to wing it or am I going to work for it? And I was tempted to wing it because I could wing it, and I could get by with it.

See, here's the challenge. When you're gifted in a certain area, you can wing it and still be successful. You can be in that top 20%. But to work for it, that's a whole different game. And in the law of simplicity, you have to work for this. You have to work for simple is hard work. But if you work for it, you get the top 2%.

And so what I tell people all the time is the tendency and the temptation is in giftedness is you don't give it all because you just don't have to give it all. I mean, it just comes. But because you don't give it all, you do well, but you don't do very, very well. But if you would just work on that area of giftedness, you'd get that top 2%, and you know as well as I do, if you're in the top 2%, whatever it is, you own whatever you wanna own.

The world is yours. And so, simple, I decided at a very young age, in my 20s, I was gonna work for it. I was just gonna work for it. And I spent a lot of time, this morning I write every day, this morning I was writing, and I was wanting lot of time, this morning I was, I write every day, this morning I was writing and I was wanting to make a statement and I worked on a statement probably for 40 minutes.

And I would write it and I said, that's not quite right, gotta work, no, no, it's done, it's done, it's still in the fit. And then finally about 20 minutes later, I thought, okay, I got it, there it is, there it is. So I get up and I make the statement and people say, oh my gosh, the guy just, that just flows out of him. No, no, it got it. There it is, there it is. So I get up and I make the statement, and people say, oh my gosh, that guy just flows out of him.

No, no, it didn't flow out of me. It didn't either, it had to cook and work it inside of me a long time, but I get it to the place where it flows out of me. But it doesn't flow. Good stuff doesn't happen automatically. I am very, very excited about today's program because I've got a legend with me here

in the fitness industry and in the personal coaching industry as well, and that's Bedros Kullian. So Bedros, thank you, brother. Thank you, sir. Thank you for having me. I told you earlier that you're a world-class communicator. And at first, when I was driving here, because I watched your videos, I listened to you talk,

and I appreciate great communicators because I'd like to think I'm working on being one myself, right? And so... You're a great one, but you're being very modest. Thank you. Well, like you, I hate hearing the sound of my own voice probably. Sure. Like, we'll watch this back and there'll be a million things I wish I said or did differently,

but then it's always the case with me. But see, it's interesting what struck me. I'm like, well, he's in the fitness business. I wonder why that was so important. And then I started to think about it. Is there really any business where that's not critical? So talk a little bit about, I'm sure even with your FitBody Bootcamp franchisees, the ability

to communicate with people, to persuade, to influence people to do things for their own betterment. How important has that been in your journey? And do you think it is for all entrepreneurs? I think there's some guys that think, well, I'm a tech entrepreneur, so this doesn't matter. You're still going to have to market something or hire people or persuade them to join your firm How important is persuasion articulation communication? It's a lost art these days unfortunately because we text so much

I saw I saw a study a video the professor took two students from the same class in college students put them back to back in The chair with without their cell phone and they said communicate and it was very awkward and clunky. Hi, hi, how are you? Good, what are you doing? Okay, handed them their cell phones, they're still back to back, and you could see their screens, and they started to communicate, Ed, so with emojis, exclamation points.

So verbal communication, physical communication, the art of getting your message across and influencing others and painting the word picture so that they can be all in on your vision Yes, is a lost art. Yes. Now English is a second language to me I had to learn this language first then I had to learn how to communicate with it second Everything I've wanted in life whether it's building this franchise Networking with amazing people like you has been an outcome of communication I communicate through video, through podcasts,

through blog posts, through Facebook Lives, you name it, we communicate. And if we can't articulate well and draw the word picture for others to get on board with our message. The word picture, that's interesting. That's what we're doing, we're drawing a word picture. If I say, imagine if, Ed, you're sitting in a room that looks like a library,

and it looks very old time library, with a beautiful oil painting of an amazing dog across from you, which right across the way there's my dog. This man has an oil painting in his office. So I look, there's pictures of his family in here somewhere, I'm sure. But the main picture in this office that I'm staring at is of your dog on the wall here.

With a crown on, is it her, Ed? Is it a her or he? It's a her. It's a her. We're staring at Cookie. She's watched this entire interview. But imagine if we weren't in this room and I said, Ed, imagine if,

and I started to draw this word picture to you, you would picture this room. And we need to get better at that level of communication to draw word pictures because when people can see it in their mind's eye, they now commit to it mentally and emotionally and are willing to buy into your vision, your agenda, whatever your thing is. So without communication, I believe that we are lost as leaders, as entrepreneurs, as teachers, as politicians.

With communication, we can lead the masses, hopefully, to a better place. Wow, so good, man. One of the things I notice about you and your ability, by the way, I love that word pictures analogy. I'm going to steal that from you. The other thing that you do really well, and I want people to hear this because they're experiencing it, but I want you to know what you're experiencing. You can't transfer energy through text or email.

You can transfer information. You can't transfer energy. You can't transfer word pictures. So one of the things you do in an exemplary way is you transfer energy. The way you communicate makes me feel something, right? Like strength, intensity, passion, empathy, whatever it is. Great communicators can transfer energy to people.

You can't transfer to me something that which you're not already experiencing yourself. You can't give me what you don't have. The reason you're such a gifted communicator is you're experiencing these things yourself. You've already won. You've already been successful. You already feel these things. So I know, by the way, you've already been successful, you already feel these things. So, and I know by the way, I know people will probably, you know, leave comments and messages,

but what if I don't have the gift that he has? I just want to reinforce to others that English was a second language to me, and this is a learned behavior. I should say something about that too, because I'm using the word giftedness, and so here's what I think. I think that everybody can get to a point

of being super great communicators. I also think someone like you was you were born probably with the ability to have this and you've refined it and refined it and refined it. I think all humans have the ability to give energy. Some are better at doing with the spoken word, some are ability to do with a look, some are able to do with a touch, but we all have the capacity to transfer energy to one another. I just think one of yours is with the spoken word. I just think you're excellent. I think everybody can develop that skill so I'm glad that you mentioned that too. It's an honor for me everybody to introduce this man to you because today's going to be an absolute treasure with the great Les Brown. So Les, thank

you so much for being here. Well thank you so much for having me. You are the messenger and you are for having me. You are the messenger and you are the message. That's me. You got people who are speaking out here, it's been hijacked with speaking to sell. We sell people on their greatness. We sell people on the things that they need to do now, the methods, the techniques, the strategy to create the next greatest version of themselves. And when we do that, we know that when we make that kind of impact, we know that we're in the place of what Leo Toystor, the Russian author, he said, what in the meaning and purpose of my life that will not be undone and destroyed when I'm gone. People that listen to your program and their mind and their vision has been expanded.

You give them a vision of themselves beyond the adversities of what they're experiencing in this place where we are right now. And help them to begin to live their life from a place of optimism that they're gonna impact other people and those people are gonna impact other people and this work that you, as much as you have chosen this, you were chosen for this and this work will not be undone.

You're gonna impact generations yet on board. Thank you. My gosh, I'm getting chills all over. One of the, I want to, I'm always watching you right and so thank you for that like sincerely. I, you, someone or something could not be more special to me than what you've just said. I want you to also watch something with less everybody. He speaks greatness into people. I really believe that that's a, it seems small, but he speaks greatness into people. He speaks to their better self. All of his messages always end with there's greatness in you. And I just think that all of us should just be conscious of this. I'd

be making a huge mistake. I have the greatest speaker I've ever seen on my show. Is there anything you would impart onto somebody who's listening and says I'd like to be a better communicator? Are there a couple keys that the best ever would share with me about how I could become a better communicator if I'm listening or watching the show right now? You know the Serena Williams is considered a dominant tennis player on the planet, but she has a coach. Muhammad Ali said, I'm the greatest, but he never won a championship without Angelo Dundee. Michael Jordan considered one of the great basketball players,

but he never won a championship without Phil Jackson. I was with my Angela, I had the honor of spending a day with her. And she said, it aggravates me when they say that I'm a gifted communicator. And I said, why? She said, show me a gifted heart surgeon. I work at this.

She said, do you see these books around here? I said, yes, ma'am. When I was raped and I went into a catatonic state and didn't speak, my grandmother brought a lady here to help me and to tutor me and she said, I want you to start there and start reading these books and give me a report. And she said, one day she came to this lady and she had written something she was very proud of. And she went, and this lady said,

you can talk, read it to me. She said, you can talk. And her mother was standing there and didn't intervene. And her mother always defended her. And this woman who wrote, I know why the caged bird sings, she said, you can talk, talk now. And the reason she stopped talking when she told on her uncle, the man, the neighbor who raped her, they beat him to death. And she felt personally responsible and went into a catatonic state. And on that day she said, she said, speak, you can speak. And she started reading on that day. And that lady helped her to get her voice back. She had swallowed her voice because of the trauma of feeling as a young kid, I call someone

to be killed because he raped me and she did that was heavy for her and so all of us are born the same way dumb-necked and speechless we can learn I didn't do what I'm doing now for 14 years I told Mike Williams I said Mike I can't speak man like zig-zag he said you can I said look Tony Robinson all those guys he said Brownie you go hear those guys because it's in you that's in you and sometimes I feel that you have to believe in somebody's belief in you Until your belief kicks in and I was at an event I think was a Bob Proctor event and a guy was speaking man. And here I am there and No, I was had moments when we feel a a speaker is just talking to us you've had people who say you you you you you were talking to us. You've had people who say, you, you, you, you were talking to me

and, and this was my day. And this guy was speaking, he stopped. He said, hmm, there's somebody here who should be up here holding this mic. I'm standing in your dream and you've convinced yourself that you can't do it, that you don't have what it takes. And I'm here to say that it's not what you don't have, it's what you think you need in order to do this. Now mind you, you know, I'm here thinking, I don't have a college education. And so then he went on speaking, he said,

I'm gonna say this, I'm not gonna say it anymore. You out there squirming in your seat right now. He said he was looking over all these I'm sitting myself at this guy looking for me. And then he said, the reason I'm standing up here, and you are seated out there squirming in your seat. I represent the thoughts you have rejected for yourself. Man, that's like he punched me in the gut. I jumped up, I had a dime. I went to a pay phone, I called Mike Williams, my mentor.

I said, Mike, he said, Brownie, what's wrong? I said, listen to me, Mike Brownie, calm down. No, I'm not rejecting myself anymore. Do you hear me, Mike? I'm not rejecting myself anymore. Do you hear me, Mike? I'm not rejecting myself anymore. My mother has breast cancer and she needs me. And all I got is just my voice, Mike. I can't get a job.

I don't have a college education. All I got is the ability to talk to people. I got to use my voice to help mama. No job is going to pay me enough money to get the help that she needs. Most people don't know 95% of people who follow bankruptcy do so because of medical expenses. And when he said that, I said, I gotta speak. There's an African proverb that says, if there's no enemy within, the enemy outside could do us no harm. Shakespeare said, the four dear brutus is not in our stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings. I was living a small life and you can't fit a big dream or big voice in a small mind. Oh my gosh, come on! By the way, as crazy as God's so good, I gave a talk this weekend. I did, I gave one quote which was that African proverb you just quoted. But my gosh, that story. All right, everyone, I know you want less here for hours. I do too.

Hey, those either run a small business. It's difficult, isn't it? There's all these different things you have to worry about hiring payroll compliance, all this different stuff, and it just takes up so much of your time. And it also gives you anxiety if you don't know how to do it or you've never done it before. And then of course, there's how do I questions that you're going to get all the time. What if you could plug in to an expert network of people where you can get these questions answered on all your how-to's in one place as well. Well that's just where JustWorks comes in. It's an all-in-one

platform that supports small business growth, access to seamless tools that help with benefits, payroll, HR, and compliance with transparent pricing. That's JustWorks. It's why I love this company. We've actually started to adopt them now in one of the companies I have in the retail space and it's made life so much easier. It's like, why did I not know about JustWorks before? Visit JustWorks.com slash podcast to join the thousands of small businesses that trust JustWorks to take care of payroll, benefits, compliance and more. That's JustWorks.com slash podcast. What does the future hold for business? Well, let me tell you right now, you can ask nine

experts you're probably going to get 10 different answers. Bull market, bear market rates are going to get cut. They're going to cut it five times, six times. Inflation is going to go up or down. Who the heck knows? You don't really have a crystal ball. And that's why I love NetSuite because you can get some measure of control in the most important areas possible in your business. So if somebody can get a crystal ball together, that would be great. But until then, over 38,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory HR into one fluid platform. Easy to use. We've been using them now for over a decade NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize on your

biggest opportunities speaking of opportunity download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at NetSuite.com slash Mylet the guide is free to you at NetSuite.com slash Mylet NetSuite.com slash my let netsuite.com slash my let. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Myletts show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way.

The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life. And I think you'd agree with me too, whether it would be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion as a leader in conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life. And I think you'd agree with me too, whether it be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be, learning to be a better conversationalist. And I have the perfect guest. His name is Chuck Weisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called

The Art of Conscious Conversations, Transforming How We Talk, Listen and Interact and I'm really excited to get into this topic. So Chuck, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. How do you talk to somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself. So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, you know, maybe we disagree with them. I want to go to the hard stuff first. Like I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican, something like that,

you know, these hard conversations, what are some of the keys and being better at doing it? So it's actually a productive experience. There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. So it's actually a productive experience. There are definitely keys that we're gonna talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're gonna have a very,

the conversation will remain difficult. There's opinions and there's facts and there's emotions. And we get all of those mixed up, right? And they all get just can bobble and jumbled up in our brain. But if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion, and it's not the truth, then we can slowly we can say, okay, what's driving my opinion? And we sort of can open our hand and go this is why I'm thinking how I'm thinking, this is what my standards are, there's four archetypal questions in the book, this is what I'm worried about, this is my concern, here's what I'd like. We can start to just open our hands and say okay I have an opinion, let's dance with that, let's see what we can learn from each other. That's a very different conversation with Fist than Fist coming at each other. Yeah you also

say in the book that I've learned to do this myself, is to fall in love with asking questions. Right. You're talking with somebody, whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement or you got to talk about something different like I've used, I've used politics as an example, because it's the big one, right? Right? Like they're good, we're bad. I'm right, you're wrong. And the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions. Right, right. And the idea of whether I'm doing it to myself and asking myself what's

driving my opinion, what's driving my judgment and why am I so hooked on the thing, right? We can also, the questions help us, like each question help us open someone else's hand. Because we can ask, well, what do you really want? What do you desire here? What do you want out of this? What are your standards for measuring this, this opinion that you have? So our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist, right? Yeah. And, and, but we aren't trained to ask questions. We're trained to have answers. That's one of the major dilemmas. And then we get into school and we were rewarded for raising our hand. And then we get into business and we're rewarded for raising our hand and then we get into business from a reward for being the smartest person in the room right right and that's a counter to the

the opposite effect is asking questions well this notion of raising your hand was my next thing so you're reading my mind and i think one of the art forms of being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening and that's why questions matter so much and And you're precisely right. In school, the teacher's still talking and asking the question, we're taught, we're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking. And what that does to me, I want you to speak to this,

to me, what that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm gonna say back to you in my answer or my judgment or my assessment about you. Most people are already raising their hand, you know, metaphorically when most other people are still talking and they wonder why am I not connecting with this person? Why can't we find common ground? Because while they're talking, you've got your hand raised already. I got the answer. I know the truth. I want to say something and rather finishing and letting them finish their statement.

Yeah. So our brain is spinning our answer. And so there's no space actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person. Right. And part of that, actually the main reason that is, we get addicted to our position. Our ego and our identity gets addicted to I believe this and if I believe this is true then that defines who I am and that is often why we enter with fists or why we enter you know in defensively you know and can't just say okay I do have an opinion I'm gonna set that aside and I'm gonna see if I can explore really what's driving this other person's thinking. But if I just want to go back for a second everybody, first thing to ask yourself is,

what's your ability to ask questions and to ask questions without judgment as someone's answering you? In other words, can you learn this the art of not raising your hand metaphorically when someone's talking and be fully present with their answer absent as much as you can of judgment? We'll talk about triggers in a little bit because you have some brilliant stuff in there on triggers, which I teach in other areas of life. I never thought about in terms of a conversation, but the one thing that opened my eyes

and why I wanted you on among many things is this idea of there's four conversations. Right. And one of them is storytelling. But take the time on this and elaborate, what are the four different conversations and what do they mean? So these are four types of conversations. They organize the book and the reason they work well to do that is they each conversation

has its own lessons to learn, tools to try, practices to try on. Because each conversation demands different skill sets. And they're all interconnected. We're generally without knowing about the conversation, we're just in conversation like fish and water. And as soon as we get, wait a minute, there's storytelling, there's collaboration, there's creativity, and there's commitment conversations, already we have a different lens to think about conversations. That's right. conversations. Already, we have a different lens to think about conversations. If I took you to spend six months with the Inuits in Alaska, and they taught you there's 27 names for snow in those six months, when we came back to New England, you would never

see snow the same way. Because all of a sudden, you have distinctions about snow that allow you to see and perceive and have a different story about snow, right? Conversation is the same way. If we can begin to think about different conversations and different ways to listen and different ways to ask questions and why it matters, we can't be in conversation as innocently, right? Yeah. Yeah. we can't be in conversation as innocently, right? Yeah, yeah. We go, oh, I need to wake up here a little bit because I'm locked down and I'm creating a fight because I'm locked down, right?

So that's why the four conversations are just the beginning to say we can start looking in conversations with a better lens. Yo, so good. The four he said, by the way, I just want to make sure you get it, are storytelling, collaborative conversations, creative conversations, and commitment conversations. I want to give you a compliment on how your work helped me a little bit on the storytelling part, or listening for someone's story.

I have a friend who, I was watching two friends argue, one's very right wing and one's very left wing. Both these dudes I love. I love both these guys. And I actually understand the perspectives of both of them. And so the conversation was actually about welfare and taxes. And my left leaning friend was, you know,

they were kind of arguing at first. And, you know, you should be paying your fair share. You don't want to help the underprivileged. You don't know what this is like. And the other guy's like, wait a minute, you shouldn't be lazy. You should get a job and you should be paying your fair share. You don't want to help the underprivileged. You don't know what this is like. And the other guy's like, wait a minute, you shouldn't be lazy. You should get a job and it should be temporary. And the normal position, they're both really getting ingrained in it. Because of your work, I'm like, wait a minute.

And the one guy that was for welfare, I said, I said, John, I said, brother, really, what's the story? Like, why are you so passionate about that? Welfare should exist, right? God wanted to build a bridge between these dudes. really. What's the story? Like, why are you so passionate about that welfare should exist, right? God wanted to build a bridge between these dudes. And anyway, John, who by the way you resemble John visually, John says he's a really strong masculine guy and he goes, well man, you guys don't know this but I was on welfare. I was a little boy and it saved my family. And there was a time where as a little boy, I was actually with my mother on the street begging for money so we could

eat and it was a horrible existence. I was a scared little boy and it was traumatic for me. And thank God my mother got on welfare. And you know what? My mother stayed on welfare for quite a while and my mom didn't really turn her life around, but I did. And now I'm a major league tax player. And I know you, buddy, over there on the right side, like all the taxes I'm playing. But you don't know what it's like not to have food. You don't know. And I watched him tell the story and I had to force it. And I watched my right-leaning friend listen.

And the judgment level, which is what you talk about, the judgment level was so far reduced. This is the case, ironically, where the story served us. Yeah. And because he, I kind of forced it because of your work to listen. And that kind of comes from questions. And it goes to my next point with you. You talk about triggers often. This welfare conversation from my friend was a trigger why he was getting

angry with the right leaning friend, like you're not sensitive, you don't care. He's triggered by that thing. So talk a little bit about in ourselves evaluating our triggers when we're listening to somebody. The storytelling conversation is the first one for a very good reason, because unless Because unless we begin to understand the stories we tell ourselves, right? Some help us, some harm us, right? But until we understand our storytelling patterns, and I use patterns in a very particular way because it takes sting out of judgment. The patterns we have around stories and patterns we have around how we get triggered, the patterns we have around reacting to people, we didn't even choose those. They're unconscious

patterns by our family, by our culture, by our teachers, by our friends, our social stuff. So we have patterns, right? So we can start looking at the story I'm telling as a pattern. So, we can start looking at the story I'm telling as a pattern. I can then look at myself with less judgment. And in a way, what your friend did was he was able to reveal his story about his childhood, right? And that there's a couple of things happening that he's revealing, he's opening his hand. I'm concerned because I know what it's like to be on the other side. My standards say that we can afford to help take care of some of these people because they do need it. And so he revealing his hand and also it begins to show some vulnerability. And so if I show some vulnerability, the other person or in your case with that conversation, as your friend

shared his story, that vulnerability changes the other person that reduces that tension. All conversations where there's tension, there's somehow involved in that is a judgment of the other person. What does one do? Because it's hard. You're like, this guy's crazy. He's out of his mind. What a bozo. You know, like it's, it's very difficult to do. He really believes this crap. You catch yourself sentence already raising your hand going,

this dude is, I gotta, let me fix this guy. Right. So what do you do when you're starting to feel this judgment or a sense? Cause you know, maybe the guy is crazy, right? Like it, but in my, what I found out in my life is like, you're not going to change that person by attacking them. You're not going to change that person by somehow being more authoritative than them, which we'll talk about in a minute in business about the power dynamic. But what is a practice that I can do when I'm in midst judgment almost of somebody going,

what in the world are you talking about? Is there something you do? What's it? What's a technique or a thought? One technique I like, and it's a sort of a metaphor of if, if something's coming at you and you really dislike what's going on, your automatic pattern, right, is to react. Right? Because it goes into your system, goes through your brain, and the pattern pops out. Very little effort on your part. That's right. That's right. That's triggered. So the idea is to begin to name your pattern. So if you have a pattern of where a certain kind of person or a certain kind of conversation, whether it's politics or sex or abortion, that is a trigger for you, just be totally aware of that pattern and name it.

In fact, there's a thing called voice dialogue where you can actually name that voice in your head. Like there's snobby Chuck, or there's intellectual Chuck, or there's hurt little boy Chuck, you know, you can sort of name it. And if you can name the patterns and become familiar with it, then you might be able to catch it before it enters your body. It loses its power over you when you become aware of it and name it. Yeah. Yeah. And then you can catch it. And then if you

catch it, then literally in the book, the four questions that I've that peppers through the book, just ask yourself, is there a power issue here? If I have a strong judgment, what standard is based seen that on. I mean standards are in every judgment we have. This is the Ed Mylan Show.