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This is a podcast from Rover.
Hi, Haley.
Hello.
How are you, babe?
Good, thank you.
How are you?
Good.
Thanks so much for coming on.
We've got so many questions.
That's all good.
Correct us if we're wrong.
You volunteered to be a surrogate for a stranger?
Yeah, so I met them on a website.
It's called Love Makes a Family.
A friend of mine had mentioned it, and I asked her,
about it. I'd been thinking about it for years, but I get hyper-emesis, so super-sup
sick. And then, yeah, I went and had a look and started, you know, looking through,
because it's all profiles that you make a profile, and they've got profiles of what you all
are looking for. And then, yeah, started messaging them, and then we kind of just emailed
back and forth for a few months, and then it was like a, yeah, you build this relationship
and that was that. We made the choice to start, and we did.
Now, a lot of people with hyperamysis, which is hardcore more nixickness,
they struggle to make the decision to get pregnant again,
even if it's their own baby and it's something they really want
because it can be so debilitating.
So what is it about your, what was it within you that was willing
to do this for someone else knowing how sick it was going to make you?
I think it was just, I'm lucky enough to have my own kids.
I've got four.
Whoa.
Good effort, babe.
Oh, good from you.
Wow.
And it was just one of those things, like I was fortunate enough to be able to say, I want a baby, so let's have one.
Yeah.
And there's all these families that just can't.
So it was, it was like nine months of crap would give a lifetime of something for somebody else.
Oh my God, what an amazing person you must be, unless you got paid.
Yeah.
Because you don't get paid, do you?
No, no.
No.
No.
Okay, so, yeah.
Okay, so yeah, do you know where you do get paid for being the surrogate?
Because New Zealand doesn't obviously allow anyone to have any sort of money exchange.
But in the States, they do, don't they?
Yeah, I think the states do.
New Zealand, they, so the parents can pay for the likes of maternity clothes or, like, All of it, any kind of,
anything relating to the pregnancy the parents can pay for.
But otherwise, no, it's just, you just do it to help.
And technically, how is it done, if you don't mind me asking you, excuse my ignorance?
So the husband must donate his sperm
and then it gets deposited into your...
Well, no, often it's an embryo.
Did you have an embryo or did you have sperm and use your own egg?
So I had an embryo, so the baby wasn't anything to do with me at all.
So the parents, the mum and the dad, they had all the embryos made
and then I just flew up to Auckland to the main clinic.
And you literally just walk in, lie down and they put this little hose in you
and then pop, it goes in and it's...
You just hope that it sticks, and then two weeks later you find out if you're pregnant or not.
Okay, so to break it right down for a lot of guys that might be struggling with what's going on here,
it's like if they're making a cake, they've provided all the ingredients, and you're the oven.
You're the mixing bowl.
Yeah, pretty much.
You're just the mixing bowl.
And tell me about the conversation you had with the parents about, like, when you said, yes, like, I'm going to do this.
We're going to do this.
Like, what did that look like?
Was it over the phone or Zoom or in real, in person?
it was so they lived south island and i'm north island um so most of our stuff was done over
over emails um or phone calls on the odd occasion and yeah i just clicked them an email and i said
hey you know this is what i'm thinking and the offers there if if it's what you guys want and
it was so yeah would you do it again because i'd imagine like if you described it and it sounds
like a very rewarding thing obviously very big sacrifice that you've made
But would you do it again?
Yeah, the only thing that scares me is the hyperamysis.
If the hyperamesis wasn't there, then yes, there would be no second thoughts or anything.
Like my kids, my youngest was only three at the time.
Oh, my gosh.
And she just wanted a baby.
So it was explained to her like this is, you know, if they have, the baby has other parents,
we're just going to grow it and we'll look after it.
And then when it's out of mummy's tummy, she goes,
and all she wanted to do was can I give it to its mother?
me and daddy. That was all she wanted.
So it was, yeah, it was easy.
What about your partner? Because I imagine it's something that, like, I have been pregnant
and it definitely affected our life and our, and our relationship.
So what was that discussion like with the two of you?
So I was by myself. It was just me and my four kids.
So my oldest, she's 14 now. She was 12.
I had the talk with her of, you know, what do you think if I do this?
Because if I do do this, we're going to need to, you know, work really hard together to try and make sure that other kids are going to be okay.
And she was, initially she was a little bit like, and then she turned around.
She goes, well, as long as we're not keeping it.
She was fine.
I'm liking this.
I think you must be such a selfless person because I'd imagine it goes like organ donation.
Yeah.
And then surrogacy.
No, surrogacy number one.
It is above organ, because you're giving your organs when you're dead and gone.
This is still making, because Haley, what happens when you've had the baby?
How long is the baby with you before, effectively, it's now out of your care and somebody else has taken over?
So you can make the choice.
I think you've got up to about five days, but we made the choice that the minute, like, baby wouldn't even cut.
It would stay on me why we did the cord cutting thing, but otherwise the baby was going to leave me straight away.
and then you just literally sign a document saying that you release
because the baby's legally mine.
So that's a scary thing.
When you're pregnant,
even though biologically it's not my child,
legally it is.
And so you've got to have this huge trust with them.
Because they can change their mind.
So wait, Haley, Sue.
Oh, that she's made a great point.
Either party really could back out.
So the birthing, I don't want to say birthing mother,
but the birthing person could very,
easily say actually I want to keep the baby and the biological parents could say we don't
want the baby anymore like that's so much trust and legally they wouldn't have a leg to stand on
if you go I've decided I'm going to keep it it's yours no there's no legs to stand on at all
oh my god like if I said at six months pregnant I've changed my mind I'm going to keep it
they can't do anything they just have to deal with the fact that they've lost their child
oh that's incredible that's not talked about very often is it yeah is that paper
Work can only be done after the baby's been born, right?
Yeah, so it's just the stock standard adoption.
So when the baby's born and then you register the baby and get a birth certificate,
my name goes down as the mother.
So theoretically, I can't put them down.
I could get someone like you to be a surrogate for my child,
and then halfway through the pregnancy, there could be complications for whatever reason.
Maybe the baby has got issues physically or whatever.
And I can technically go, I don't want that child anymore.
and then you were left with that child.
Wow.
That's it.
Haley, what about the psychological impact and even hormonal impact?
When you've just had a baby, you give it away minutes after you give birth.
Like, do you get counselling off the back of it?
Is that something that...
And is that counselling at the start?
Like, did you get a psychologist?
Yeah, so you've got to go through approval.
So the approval process is like 18 months.
It's huge.
So you have like medicals and blood tests and stuff.
You have lawyers.
and you have counsellors
so you've got to jump through all these massive hoops
before you get to do it
and while you've got
like the whole pregnancy and stuff
all of that counselling
it's open to you to use whenever you need to
so that makes it a bit easier
but you've got everything
fully explained to you
I think the only time
like there was never any issues for me
because I went into it
knowing that the baby wasn't mine
so like if you're in the right mindset
it's not your baby, you're essentially just babysitting this child for nine months
and then when it's mum and dad are ready, you just hand it back.
Yeah, although Phoebe, when she had her brother's triblets, she did say she wanted to keep one.
You need to stop basing lives on friends, Clint.
Yeah, yeah.
Is it true that I don't know what it's like in New Zealand, but in Australia, you're not
allowed to ask somebody to be a surrogate.
Is that the same thing?
Is that why you kind of have to use a website?
I'm not sure.
I've never come across the whole.
not being able to ask.
I think you can,
but it's just the biggest thing is the money.
You can't be paid for it.
Gotcha.
Not even like your maternity leave.
She already said that.
No, you're talking about maternity that clothes and stuff
for the baby, but what about you just being without able to work for six months?
You still get Matt leave from the government and they can top it up?
Yeah, because legally speaking, the baby's yours when it's born.
So you get the paid parental leave and whatnot.
And then the adoption process takes sort of,
six months to a year depending generally a bit longer well yeah no generally from six months to a year
and and how was the pregnancy tell us about the actual experience for you and how it all kind of
happened well my first one so a few of my friends have done it you made a lot of people through it
so my one we ended up losing the baby so we didn't get to finish it
wow how far along all you guys um only quite early
so we weren't super super long enough to be sick and enough to be showing so we weren't but we weren't
locked but then it was my fifth pregnancy so I was going to show pretty much straight away anyway
yeah do you get to have any continued contact with the child like say on like the birthdays and
things like that and you can reach out is that I guess a discussion that you have with the
the people that you're being a surrogate for is that just a decision you guys would make together
yeah it's all just personal so a lot of um a lot of people
that I know that have done it.
One friend, she's had two kids
or two babies. They are
biologically hers,
but they've gone to dads.
They've gone to the dads. And so
she had the conversation
at the start and they just talk like
normal friends and catch up and
she's just the auntie.
And she loves it. She's got
her own family as well.
So it's all very personal
if you want to have something to do with
the baby, then yeah. And if you're
if you have those really hard conversations with the parents that start of your expectations
and what you're thinking, and if everyone's really, really open, it's quite easy because
you know all of these things.
So when we went through counseling, the councilors were like, oh, well, what happens if this crops
up and it's like, well, that's, you know, something we've already touched on.
But it's even when you're pregnant, if the parents don't want, say, a test to check for,
you know, any abnormalities or anything, they don't actually get.
to say so the surrogate gets that but then as the surrogate you're not the parent so it's you know
you want the parent to make those choices and so you've got to have those conversations and then
when the baby's born because technically legally I would be the parent but if I've already
signed the baby over to the parent they still don't get a say so you know north and south
island if something happened and the baby needed emergency surgery they have to come to me
no hospital can touch the baby
so it's all these little grey areas
even though biologically
baby wouldn't have been mine
but the parents still don't get a say
until after the adoption process is complete
trust is like intense with this
type of arrangement right
Haley I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to you
right now that are maybe listening
to the show and they can't have kids
for whatever reason
how would they engage a person
like you to
maybe help them along in the process
so there's that website is the main one that is used now
and that's your love makes a family so you just go on
you set up your profile and then you can just look through other people
and it's sort of there's photos and it says who they are
and what they're looking for and a bit about them
it's just a little short story about their life
and that's how I met mine and they are incredible
have they been able to go on and have a baby since
via surrogacy or are they still kind of on their journey?
No, they're still on their journey.
So what's your, what's the approval process?
You have three years to do what you want to do.
We haven't had any conversations about it since because she got really sick.
So it was sort of, we got pregnant, she got sick, we lost the baby, she's still really
sick.
So it's just sort of waiting to see what happened.
Wow.
Sounds like they've had a tough year.
And I really wish them the best.
That's just, I mean, for everyone involved.
And that's motherhood, isn't it, Haley?
Like, it's just you never know what's going to happen
and you break your heart open, hoping for the best.
And sometimes, you know, we just can't control life, can we?
Imagine what the world would be like if we have more Haley's and I know.
We've spoken to some very inspiring people over the last week or so, haven't we?
Oh, God, I'm a selfish human.
Yeah.
I feel like an absolute asshole now.
Is there anything else, Haley, before we.
go and thank you so much for your time and being so
open with us. I've learnt so much. Is there
anything else about this process of
surrogacy that you would like people to know
that maybe is a misconception or something
you wish more people understood?
I suppose
it would be cool if people
looked at it as
you know it's only nine months
of an entire lifetime and if you can
bring something to someone
completely selflessly
with no you know nothing coming back
to you just purely
for somebody out, I think
it would be a little bit
easier. And if people were more open to
talk about it, because it is such a
scary thing, and then people don't
know about it, they're quite nervous
to ask the questions, whereas for us on the
other side who are in it or gone through
it or doing it, we're not
scared to talk about it. We're more than happy
to talk and be open and
say this is what the process is, and
it's hard, but it's
amazing. Wow. What a legacy.
Good on you, Haley. You're an
absolute champion. I know that your kids that you have are very lucky to have you with that
attitude. For sure. That selflessness. Good on your darling. Thank you. Rover. Music, radio,