The Edge Breakfast - FULL CHAT: John Campbell on Uber

Episode Date: November 9, 2025

This is a podcast from Rover. Clint, Megan, Dan. Have you ever wondered when you get out of an Uber, what percentage of what you just pay goes to the driver? Somebody who will know that is one of our absolute favorites. Oh, yeah, morning. So I love, thanks, thank you for having me in. Oh, it's a joy to have you.

I think this is the first time we've had you in properly, John. Well, it's lovely. I just want to say, also, Dan and Ash, you know, that the way you've arrived in the show, you know, it's lovely. And it's not easy to do, you know, this is, you know, So go you fellas. Thanks, John. Go you fellas.

It means a lot coming for you. Yeah. I actually, I got in an Uber the other day to come to work. Yeah. In the morning. Roughly, where do you come from? From Santer. It was like just near Mount Eden Park to the city.

14 bucks or something. 14 bucks usually. Yeah. They're doing hoobers this morning. It was a wait. It was like to text the boys. I'm going to be late. I finally got an Uber $38.

I'm thinking what's going with the surge prices at 5 a.m. Yeah. And me and this lovely Chinese guy was driving me. Thinking about it, thinking about it, thinking about it. And then he went, I figured it out at. I said, why? He said, it's Diwali.

There's no Uber drivers on the road. They've had a big night last night. They're sleeping in. That's so sweet. And I was like, happy Diwali to my Indian brothers and sisters. But I can't be paying $38 a lot of money. Unbelievable. I mean, that's a beautiful story.

And also, isn't that a lovely story of Auckland? You know, that wonderful community. But equally, the story for me is the fact that it's $14. So by the time they drive and pick you up in Sandringham, drive you to work. Yeah. So although you're starting. But in traffic, that's probably a 20, 25 minute. They're getting 14 bucks less the roughly 30% Uber's taking.

So maybe that driver's worth $8 or $9 for them. They've got to put a car on the road. And then they might potentially sit around for 15 or 20 minutes afterwards and get another job. So I've been talking to a lot of Uber drivers who don't earn minimum wage and don't even get close to it. What is minimum wage? 2350 an hour.

And so we now have about 11,000 Uber drivers. And so we now have a reasonably significant workforce who are regularly working for under minimum wage. They don't get holiday pay, they don't get sick pay, they have no protections. Uber says, we are not an employer. You are just contract drivers. Although the employment court says no, actually.

Really? Yeah, so this is a fascinating test case. But I think the conversation we need to have is, do we want a workforce routinely earning less than minimum wage with no protections whatsoever? Yeah, because they can't unionise or anything. They've got no like communal power, I would imagine. And the nature of an employee is you can do all that stuff.

And then as the contract model starts to spread and spread and spread, and more and more and more of us become contract workers, more and more and more of it's going to be in any less than minimum wage. And the thing about Uber is John as well, is it's such a cool thing. Like on the face value, you get to go and it's stressless. You go on a nap. They drive you. I was talking to a guy the other day who drove,

I live in Takapuna and I had to go to Spark Arena. And he was telling me that he makes a loss every day because he's got savings. He had savings when he moved to. New Zealand and because he's driving a hybrid car that doesn't, it's not good enough to drive an Uber and so he is now losing money each day from Uber driving. He does it full time every day and he couldn't make ends meet. And the crazy thing is then people go, all right, well you work more hours. A lot of these people John that you've been talking to are, they're maxed out, 70 hours

a week. That's right, 70 hours is the max. And you'll ask them, people are a bit cagey. So I'm not saying that in a judgmental term, but people don't really want to tell you. So you'll say to your Uber driver, how many hours are you working? They'll say 40 or 50 hours a week. That probably means they're doing 60 plus. Yes. And so, and then they're exhausted. And then someone gets in and has a chunny in their car on a Friday night because they've had a few too many Bacardi's or whatever.

And then they're off, you know, and, and it's tough. And look, Uber's fantastic. I use it all the time. It's an incredible app. But there is a workforce out there now who are doing it really, really time. That make it incredible. They're the ones that make it good. So what's the answer?

Yeah. I think we need to have a conversation about what we regard as minimum value of labor. Yeah. Oh, sorry, that's such a boring thing. And you know, your listeners will be thinking, shut up, John Gamble, you boring old dick. I think we have to ask, what is Labor worth worth worth? Yeah. And then we have to set a floor and say, Labor is never worth less than this.

Yes. But the problem is Uber are going to say, piss off. You know, so they lost in the employment court. Four drivers took a case. The employment court said, yes, these, sorry, if you work 40. Employance is a bit like a de facto relationship. Yeah. If you live with someone long enough, it becomes in the nature of a marriage and law, employment's like that.

If you stay long enough with somebody 48 weeks a year, doing 50 hours a week, the employment court says, actually that you're in a matter. employee now. You're not a contract anymore. Uber appealed that to the appeal court. They lost. It's now before the Supreme Court. But what the courts are saying is this is an employee-employer relationship. And so we need to prescribe a minimum value. But what that means for the people listening who use Uber is that essentially John Campbell, word that rhymes with Tanker, is saying you should probably be paying more for your Uber fares.

But that's the whole problem with so much of society is that like we want all these things, but we're not willing to pay for it. Truly. Like we want good quality clothes and we want things that aren't going to, and we want things that are made in New Zealand and we want to protect local industry, but no one is willing to pay the extra 20, 30% when it comes to. We want to, shop for crap and T-Moo and she in, and we don't want to pay people to drive us around because we think that's a waste of money.

So it's about values, I think. Yeah, it is 100%. And as sooner or later, we have to understand there's a moral decision here. Yes. If something's cheap, someone's being paid cheaply. That's exactly it. So if we were to tip 30% of what the fear was, John, would that cover the shortfall? This is a lovely question, and it just reflects your absolute decency.

I've always thought you're a lovely man. He is a very generous man. He's a lovely man. I'm really lazy. I just tip five bucks every time. But also I can afford to do that. A lot of people can't afford to do that. And five bucks is a shitty little tip.

What a mean bastard, forgive my language. But the Uber driver gets nearly all of that. I think GSTs deducted. I always say, can you show me your app? and if I tip five bucks to get $4.35, but Uber takes no commission on that. That's good. So that makes the fare kind of decent. But if you can't afford that, you can't afford that. I'll often do that.

I mean, I'm generous, but beats dint you sometimes. If it's raining, or like, if it's raining and it's an Uber eats delivery or, like, weather bad or traffic, I'll always tip because that's shitty. You have to get out of the rain. Uber eats. Uber eats. Restaurants are losing out on that, aren't they? So I went to a restaurant in Petonium, Wellington. Beautiful guy, just running an Indian.

restaurant at Botanio, I just loved them to bits. He sells a butter chicken in the restaurant for 27 bucks. If the same butter chicken goes out of the restaurant via Uber, he's getting about 18 bucks for it. And then Uber runs specials, two-for-one specials. And he takes the hit on that. I always thought that was the restaurant doing that. The restaurant takes the hit on there.

So recently he said there was a special where he was sending $30 worth of food out of his restaurant and getting $10 for it. He's running at a loss on that meal. But are they saying to Uber, we'd like more business? And they go, cool, man, we'll just chuck a job. Two for one deal. 100%. 100%.

But isn't that shocking Uber is one of the richest companies in the world and they're just turning almost a blind eye to this, aren't they? 100%. That's how they rich. And also, look, I'm going to,

just one really boring figure, Uber's revenue in New Zealand last year, $400 million. Uber's tax bill in New Zealand last year, $800,000. That is disgusting. So that's a government thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

So it's just about, we just need to have a conversation. What do we want from these companies? Yeah. It's a lot of food for thought And the thing is it comes down to those Everyday little decisions that we as New Zealanders make With our day

Where am I going to put my money? What is important to me? We all need to have those Little decisions and conversations with ourselves Before we do things like call an Uber or get Uber-Reeds I could chat to you John He's an amazing man Yeah, yeah

You guys are so lovely You know, if there's anybody that's going to be investigating this It's you, you're the guy, you know? It's fine, because also I have an immensely privileged life You know, I'm a very lucky man. But I think those of us who are lucky have a responsibility to view the world with an understanding that not everyone is as lucky as us. Actually, some people are doing it really tough. There'll be people listening right now who are actually worried the next time they go to your CFPOS card about whether or not they can, whether or not it's going to bounce.

Feed their kids. Feed their kids. And we have an obligation to make sure they're being paid what their labour is deserved. Just before you go as well, John, because I've said before that I've always admired you. And I think the reason I admire you is because you've always been a voice for the people that don't have a voice quite often. I think what you've built your career on is being the people's journalist. And I think that I love that about you. And I don't think anybody does it better.

And again, this is something that you're doing now that I think it's just, it's a pleasure to chat to you. It's a lovely thing to say. It took me a long time to understand that the world wasn't a level playing field. Yeah, it's very true, isn't it? It's really weird. It's so boring thing to realise. And you think, oh my God, how did I miss that? You know?

I'm sure you have been very lucky, but also luck finds people that are very talented and hardworking as well. So I think that's a huge part of your luckiness and your success, John. Thank you. It's a lovely thing to say. Thank you for coming. And also keep up your good work. Oh, no. If you're driving off in the morning to a job, you know, your boss is a dick.

Yeah. You're stuck on the northwestern. You know, it's raining in Auckland again, wherever the hell you are. And you guys are making, you guys make Bill feel good. It's a real privilege. John Campbell investigates TVNZE Plus. Get around it. And even some of the other stuff that you've done in the past as well

with Disney's Church and other stories that we are just. Speaking of not paying enough taxes. Yeah. Nice. She's got a good idea. And on that, we will get out. Thank you, John Campbell. Thank you for having me.

Thank you.