The Eric Metaxas Show - #134 - Billy Hallowell

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, Eric talks with Billy Hallowell about his CBN series Investigating The Supernatural and why Christians must take miracles, angels, demons, and spiritual warfare seriously. They discuss the rise of alien and UFO conversations, why Eric and Billy believe much of the “alien” phenomenon may actually be demonic deception, the danger of denying the supernatural, the need for biblical discernment, miracle stories, near death experiences, occult activity, possession, and why signs and wonders should point people to Jesus rather than away from Him. Subscribe for clips from The Eric Metaxas Show to hear politics and culture from a Christian perspective.⭐ ORDER NOW:Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World📕: https://a.co/d/0ir3NlapTODAY'S SPONSORS:⭐ FREE SLAVES with CSI: https://csi-usa.org/metaxas/⚖️ Legal Help Center - Get Free Legal Help Today: https://www.legalhelpcenter.com/🛏️ MyPillow — Save BIG with code ERIC: https://www.mypillow.com/☀️ Honest, fast, and free Medicare plan guidance: https://askchapter.com/metaxas/💧 Sentry H2O: https://sentryh2o.com/

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Wayfair, every style, every home. Hey, folks, welcome to today's show. Yes, this is today's show. And I want to say that in a minute I'm talking to our friend, Billy Hallowell. You know, he's been on the program many times. He's doing a program with CBN called Investigating the Supernatural. as you know. I'm kind of interested in that.

So I'm going to have that conversation with him in a couple of seconds. It actually turns out to be important. Also want to remind you, our campaign with CSI is happening this week. We've extended it. We had some problems the first week, which we fixed. And so we're a little bit behind. If you haven't participated yet, go to Eric Metaxus.com and participate however you can. This is mandatory, okay?

Maybe not legally. but in my mind. It's mandatory. It's a beautiful thing. It's an opportunity to free slaves literally, literally. Don't misuse the word literally. This is, you know, you say my mind was blown literally. No, not literally. But you're freeing slaves literally if you go to ericotaxis.com and participate. And actually, part of today's show, I'll have a short conversation with Todd Chapman, who is with CSI. and he can kind of explain more of the details of what it is that your money goes to. God bless you. God bless America. Be right back with Billy Hallowell.

Hey there, folks. We break into a regular programming. We kind of have a news flash here. In case he didn't know, I'm excited to get for a few minutes at least Todd Chapman on the program. He's a spokesperson for CSI Christian Solidarity International. Some of you know that we are right now doing a campaign to free slaves literally. This is a big deal. I see it as a great opportunity for people who believe in truth and justice to be able to act on those values.

And Todd, we're just always grateful when you can come on and give us a little more explanation of what it is we're talking about. Yeah, Eric, grateful to be back. And I got to tell you, this is, it's always a highlight of my. My schedule of my year when I get to come before you and your audience and give an update, first of all, as to the incredible difference that the Eric Pataxis audience is making in the lives of so many individuals that, frankly, the world doesn't know about or has largely forgotten about. And I'm talking about women and children who have been enslaved for literally decades, well, at least the women. The kids, not so much because they're still very young. But these women, they've been enslaved in Sudan since the 1990s. And CSI, in partnership with Eric Metaxus, thanks to your generosity, has been able to free

literally tens of thousands of those individuals and bring them back into a new life of freedom. So we're so excited to be here and invite you to help us free even more slaves this month. Please, please. I mean, the problem, Todd, is it's almost unbelievable. even to me, you know, when you say things like this that we freed, you know, 1,300 human beings, I just think, can it, can it be? I mean, and I know it's true, but it is very hard to get my head around. So for people who aren't familiar with what it is we're talking about, talk to them.

Go ahead. Yeah, this is something that most people, and I have this conversation a lot, when people ask about CSI and then we inevitably talk about, you know, what is, CSI does a lot of things, but the freeing of these Sudanese slaves is their primary focus. The only organization in the world that's actually focused on liberating these precious women and children. And people are shocked. They're like, I, you know, I'd never even heard about this. So what happened was back in the late 1980s, Muslim marauders were basically allowed to do a bit of a kind of like a religious cleansing against Christians living in what is now South Sudan. And when I say they were

allowed to do a cleansing. They were armed by the government, allowed to go in and ruthlessly murder men and, you know, take enslave the women and children in these Christian villages. And they took them up into the north, what's now North Sudan, and they've been held enslaved ever since then. And it became evident as CSI was working with the governments there to, you know, to get these slaves freed, that the governments had no inclination to do that. So CSI just said, well, we'll see what we can do and brought it to their supporters, and we've been bringing it to Eric Metaxus listeners now for a number of years. And what's all said and done, over 100,000 of the Sudanese slaves, now grown women, many of them, most of them were taken captive when they were children,

and now they're grown women, but they've lived their entire life in slavery. We're setting them free, bringing them back into South Sudan, reuniting them, reintegrating them into their home village whenever we can and setting them up in a brand new life of freedom. And it's just a really beautiful opportunity for you, if you've never heard about this before, to step in and give a gift that literally will set a human being free. It's awesome. Well, again, it seems almost unbelievable, but I want to encourage my audience. Folks, this is true. We've been doing this for a number of years without you and your support. We don't do this. We can't do this. So it is up to you. The easiest way to do it is go to my website is just Ericmetaxis.com.

The banner will pop up. And there are all the details there. But I have someplace here. Maybe I don't even have it with me today. But there's a phone number, which we're going to get to you. But I have to say, it is almost crazy that this is happening that in this day and age, we have this kind of thing going on on the globe. It sounds like something out of history.

unfortunately, evil and slavery are alive and well on the globe today. But the good news is that Christian faith has entered the equation and people of Christian faith know slavery is evil and have the ability, thanks to CSI, to do something about it right now. So it's a tremendous opportunity. The $250. Now, by the way, if you can't give that, give whatever you can, because it all goes to the same thing. But for every $250, it just does, it doesn't just free someone. And Chris, I don't know if you can get us the phone number,

but it doesn't just free someone from slavery. It sets them up in a life of freedom. That's what Todd was just talking about. So it's the whole package. Every $250 sets someone free. It is really just, I guess the way I see it, Todd is this is faith in action. If anybody else, what can I do? What can I do? You can do this.

Everybody can participate in this. Again, the easy way to do it is go to Ericmetaxis.com. The banner comes up. All the details are there. I beg you, folks, please participate and thank you. Hey there, folks. I've been saying that 2026 must be the year of accountability, whether talking about government spending or the way we steward our own families, we have a moral duty to see. the truth. But let's be honest, in the world of Medicare, truth is often the first casualty. Seniors, like my 91-year-old mom, are bombarded with mailers and pushy phone calls that feel more like propaganda than helpful guidance. This is why I value my partners at Chapter. They operate on a different principle, independence. Chapter is the only national advisor that reviews every

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Welcome to the program or welcome back to the program. I think I warned you that I have as my guest, none other. Get ready. Billy Hallowell. Billy, welcome. When you're a mid-sized business, you need every competitive advantage you can get. Like an AI solution that works for you, not against you. SAP Grow is built with AI embedded at its core,

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72 hours of savings. Shop now at performance.ca slash three-day sale. Driven by Performance Auto Group. Welcome back. I always love being here. Thanks for having me. Well, you're fun to talk to. And in case people don't know who you are

or why we're talking to today, you have a TV series on CBN called Investigating the Supernatural. And I'm all over this. I love this. I wrote a book about miracles. I talk about this all the time. The supernatural, most people watching this program know that it's real, okay? Most people, but some don't or some have kind of, they get weird about it.

So what do we need to know? Where should we start? Should we start with the Spielberg thing that you mentioned to me off the air? Yeah, yeah, let's start there because right now, I feel like this issue is getting a whole new renewed life because of the alien discussion, right? Like, everybody's wanting our aliens real, are they not real? has the government been lying for decades. And so we're having this alien conversation, and it's opening up all sorts of debates

within the church, outside of the church, in secular culture, you know, what happens if aliens are real? What does that do to people's faith? And so you have, you know, Stephen Spielberg and others sort of asking this question, you know, if you find out overnight, that the government's been lying.

Go ahead. But I have to, I have to just interrupt in the beginning to explain to my audience. Ladies and gentlemen, I find these discussions at least at first, unbelievably annoying, because they're kind of gaslighting and confusing. Let me just lay down the law, okay? Here's the law.

There are no aliens from other galaxies. Our whole lives we've been told, of course there are. It would be arrogant to think that only human beings blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Total garbage, okay? If you haven't read my book, Is Atheism Dead? or the first chapters of my miracles book, the odds that there should be life anywhere in the universe are zero unless God created it.

I don't have time to get into that now, but this lie that life just pops up and it's popping up. It popped up here and it popped up. Total garbage. But of course, if you've been told that for like 70 years that there are people from outer space coming, then when something like this happens, you immediately go, well, obviously, that's obviously what it is.

That's obviously not what it is. So we can discuss what it is, what it's not. but the main thing to know is it's not aliens from other galaxies, if anything, and I just have to say this up front, Billy, so forgive me, but I just want to say up front. Ladies and gentlemen, this is almost certainly demonic. It's certainly a deception to confuse people, and that bothers me, so I feel like I have to get out front of it. But, okay, Billy, I just had to say my piece. Go ahead. I love that you said your piece, because I think what's happening here is what you just said. You have a situation where you now have all these people wondering, well, are there? aliens are there not? Let me say this. Let me get this out of the way. I agree 100%. I think it's

demonic and we can talk about that more. If there was some chance, and I do not believe this at all, I think it's nonsense, that aliens existed, okay? This idea that it would rock everybody's faith and people would have to turn away from Christianity is nonsense because here's the thing. The Bible is very clear. Jesus came and died and rose again for mankind, right? Angels, for instance, have free will. The Bible indicates that they have free will. Some of them fell. They chose otherwise. He didn't come to die for the angels. So there's not some conflict like, oh, well, how did Jesus die for the aliens then? So I think that's nonsense too. But by having said that, pushing all that to the side, and that's a deeper theological conversation. What this alien

conversation does is it deviates our attention from what matters most, from the truth, right? People aren't talking about the spiritual realm. They're talking about aliens. And the reality is people are seeing things. And even if 99% of what is being seen, right, these UAPs, these UAPs, these UFOs, these claims of alien encounters, which there are a lot of them, abductions, all of that. If they're seeing that, well, a lot of the time it can be explained by science or technology or whatever, but let's say 1% of it is real that they're seeing something they can't explain.

They're seeing the spiritual realm. It is pouring over, and that is what is happening. And so we don't want to get caught in that deception of not understanding that we actually have a spiritual realm that exists. Ephesion 6 tells us this. The entire Bible tells us this. And the one thing I'll say, and you jump in here, the biggest danger I see in the church right now

is this denial of miracles, this denial of the supernatural, this idea that none of this stuff is happening. That to me, and maybe that's a strong statement, I know it is the most dangerous thing happening right now inside. Well, no, of course it is because, I mean, listen, it's just a funny thing.

When I had my born-again experience, you know, at age 25, I realized God is real, the Bible is true. And I was excited about the supernatural aspect of it. Like, wow, God is real. If I pray to him, he hears me and he can do stuff. He can heal people and he can prayer works. And there's this whole world that opens up. Now, do people abuse that?

Of course they do. Do people misunderstand that? Of course they do. And so it's our job not to just reject it, but to say, okay, how does God want to? us to perceive the supernatural. What does he say? What does the scripture say? And of course, there's some debate, but I think there's no debate among serious Christians that there's a supernatural realm. Now, if you're very sophisticated Christian, maybe that makes you uncomfortable

with your sophisticated idiot, materialist friends that you're afraid they're going to think you're nuts. Well, then you're just like a coward or you're easily intellectually intimidated by your secular friends because this is just real. It would be no different than if somebody says, like, you believe in atoms? Like, you can't even see atoms. Has anyone ever seen an atom? I don't think so. You ever seen an electron? I don't think so. Like, what are you talking about? There are things we can't see, but we can infer their existence. That's how we infer the periodic table. And we've, you know, and the fact of the matter is that there's a lot that we don't know, we don't understand. So we try to process it logically. And the same goes for the scripture. We try to understand it logically. What is it

saying clearly? What is it saying that's not so clear? And we have to, we have to think it through or we have to see if there's more information that can help me understand. And, you know, but we are logical. We're clear-minded about it. And I think to simply dismiss the world of the supernatural is just so preposterous that I mock people at this point. It's like saying like, I don't know if the earth is flat, like where there are different opinions on this. Well, that's nice, but I'm not going to take seriously somebody thinks the earth is flat. And if you're one of those people, tough luck. So this idea that there's nothing supernatural, that it all has to be materialistic.

And therefore, if there are things that look like aliens, they've got to be creatures from another. Ladies and gentlemen, that's just, that's just preposterous. And I'm also, it's kind of funny, because I wrote a book on miracles, I would ask people, have you ever an experience with a miracle? some people would tell me these extraordinary stories other people would kind of get uncomfortable and say yeah I don't like to talk about it and I would say why they were sort of ashamed

they were afraid people would make fun of them and I thought you've got to be kidding me like you are so thin-skinned or intellectually nervous that people are going to make fun of you but if it's any consolation and I say this in my book is atheism dead Einstein was one of those people

Einstein, when he finds the evidence for an expanding universe, is uncomfortable because he's afraid of what his scientific colleagues are going to say, that they're going to say, oh, you're talking about a creation. Oh, you must be religious. You're not scientific. So that's the shallowness of this conversation, which is crazy. So that's why I'm excited that you're doing the series investigating the supernatural. And where can people see it before we get further into it? Because I'm just amazed that you're doing this. I'm glad you're doing this. Yeah, no, people are loving it too, which has been amazing. It's CBN.com forward slash supernatural. And so you just go there and you can stream it there. What you're describing is so true. It is really sad to watch too because it's what the devil wants. He wants people to not talk about this stuff. He wants it to feel weird.

But we just did a survey with the American Bible Society on this. And we asked Americans a series of questions, but one of those questions was, have you ever had a miraculous answer to prayer? And almost 50% of Americans, not just Christians, said that they had had a miraculous answer to prayer. And so it's one of those things where almost everybody's had something happen they can't explain. And, you know, we're seeing that in survey data. And so we need to talk about it more.

And for me, I'll be honest, I was very much in my head as a Christian on this stuff. I said I believed it. But it wasn't until I really got deep into this series, this film series, that I started to really be challenged. And now it's all I want to talk about because I think it's incredible. and it points people towards the truth in an amazing way. Well, I'm, when I, my big question before I came to faith really was this question, is there something beyond this world or not, period, right? And I, you know, when, when the Lord spoke to me in this dream, which I've spoken about

and written about whatever, I mean, it was just obvious that it was God. It was not something I ate. It was not a dream, like a normal dream. It was clearly God speaking to me and changing, you know, everything. and I was overwhelmingly convinced. And then I experienced other miracles. And I've had mystical experiences over the years, not many, but I've had many friends that have had many more than I have.

And you have to bring a rational criticism to it. You have to say, wait a second, that doesn't sound right. People have often shared what they would say is miracle experience. And I would say, there's a part of that that I'm doubting. What about this detail? What about that? When I wrote my book on miracles, a friend of mine, a really good friend, it gave me a story. He said, there's a miraculous experience. And I said, that story doesn't rise

to the level of miraculous. It's kind of like a wonderful thing. And I have no doubt, God's in charge sovereignly. But it doesn't feel like, oh, wow, that's obviously a miracle. And I think we have to bring our rational faculties to the supernatural issue, to the immaterial. We have to be honest about it. And I think that there are some people that they're just so uncomfortable with it. But again, many Christians that they just like, well, I don't want to talk about that because that will make people think I'm crazy. Yeah. And I think you have to have the wisdom to know what to talk about when.

But if you're so insecure that you never talk about this, this is a reality for most people on the planet that they've had some experience or they know people who've had experiences or whatever. It's just real. But so do you know what the Spielberg movie is about? I don't know really what it's about. It's, you know, Disclosure Day. So it's basically about alien disclosure.

Like, what would it look like? What would happen? I have not seen the film, obviously. I haven't seen an advanced screening of it. But it's coming out of the perfect time. It makes you wonder, it's like all these things are happening at the same time. This conversation is happening. And I think I honestly think the conversation is also happening because people are desperate

for the truth, right? We've seen all these young people flooding to accept Jesus. We've seen a huge rise, unfortunately, obviously, in the new age, too. And I wanted to piggyback on what you were saying. We have to be discerning. And this whole series investigating the supernatural is literally us being discerning on these stories and being like, hey, in the first one we tackle miracles

and the second one we tackle angels and demons, here are the claims, here's all the evidence you decide. So we've got to be discerning, but if we're not careful with these stories, too, and these experiences, sometimes it crosses over into the New Age, right? You want to make sure that what you're doing. When you say New Age, demonic.

In other words, ladies and gentlemen, everything that is not of the natural world is not good. there is some that is bad and you have to have discernment and and the scripture's clear that Satan comes as an angel of light isn't come and say hey I'm the enemy of all that is good and true and beautiful he's going to lie and deceive that's what he does he lies and deceives and so we have to have discernment and the Bible is the yardstick that we have to use to measure what does the Bible say about this and so there are many people that have no discernment and they just go oh you know a voice

told me to do this or there have been many demon voices in history, you know, that probably dictated the Quran and dictated the book of miracles. When did that happen in the 1970s? These, you know, demonic voices that are speaking and deceiving. So, yes, you need discernment because that is also real. So there's a good reason to be wary of this kind of stuff. But go ahead. Sorry.

Yeah, no, I love that. Absolutely, because you want to make sure that what you're hearing. And that's why the Bible says test every spirit, right? Make sure you know what you're dealing with. I think a lot of people out there, you've got these psychics walking around, claiming that they're Christians. You can't be a psychic medium and be a Christian. That is not, those two things don't go together. And I would actually point people to Acts 16, if they have any questions about this. Paul expels demons from a woman, a slave woman, who is being used by her owners to fortune tell. That's literally what she's doing. The minute he expels those demons, she loses the ability to fortune tell. And they're mad and they throw him in Barnabas in prison, right? So it's, or Silas in prison. So this is something that I, think is obviously detailed in the Bible. We have to be discerning. We have to understand it. But, you know, on the positive side of things, understanding how we interact with the spiritual realm, this idea, I mean, you and I know we've seen what happened with Charlie Kirk, our friend.

We've seen these evil events again and again throughout history. The spiritual realm pours over into the physical. Ephesian 6 says this. And so if you want to, if you're looking at the world and you don't have spiritual lenses, good luck understanding what's happening in your life, what's happening in politics because all of it, yes, there's free will. Yes, we make stupid mistakes sometimes. Yes, there's sin. But a lot of the things that are happening are being impacted by a spiritual battle that we cannot physically see with our eyes, but that is pouring over into our world, honestly. And my concern is that a lot of the church is not being equipped. And there are a lot of great churches who do a good job, but to understand that in a proper way. Well, again, I think what we do

naturally as human beings is we overreact. Like, we've seen excess and so we push so far away. that we want nothing to do with it. Ladies and gentlemen, God wants us to have something to do with this. He does not want us to worship signs and wonders. He wants signs and wonders to point us to him, to worship him. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be interested in signs and wonders. And I think that God has, I mean, the whole point of signs and wonders is to lead us to God.

I mean, there's signs pointing to him. And that's, that was my big takeaway in writing my miracles book is that that's the point. It's to draw us to him. These things don't happen just to happen. The whole point is to glorify God. And if they're not glorifying God and Jesus, I would worry about it, right? You know, like you want people to understand that's the point. If God's speaking.

And there are demonic entities that want to use the supernatural to deceive. And that's, again, I mentioned that. But that has happened. And pull people from God. An angel. I'm talking to an angel. It's like, well, I don't know that you want to be talking to an angel, you know, say Jesus is Lord and see what the angel does. I think that you have to be, you do have to be very, very discerning about this.

But it's funny because there are narratives out there, like you mentioned, the Spielberg movie, and they're pushing these narratives and people kind of believe it. Like, oh, yeah, the government is hiding. What is the government hiding? I mean, if there is anything, the question is, what is the thing? because I would believe that there are people in the government that they themselves don't know what they're dealing with. They are foolish people thinking they're dealing with aliens when they're dealing with demons. There are people in the government who they want power or they want to do this or they want to do that. They don't care how they get it.

So we have to be the ones to have discernment and to understand, no, these are not aliens from other civilizations. Whatever they are, that's not what they are. Unless somebody can prove to me that that's a mistake, I would say, that's just not true. And I think that, you know, we do have to be wary. But to buy into the narrative, like people are going to give you this false choice. Like either the government is hiding alien stuff or either the government is hiding this stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or it's all a bunch of baloney.

Well, it could be someplace in the middle. And again, there are demonic forces that want to deceive us. and they're happy to use whatever they can use to deceive us. So we just have to be wary, but we have to be real clear that there is a supernatural realm and their demonic forces. It is their job to deceive you, to use whatever they can.

And this lie that we've all been living with for 70-plus years, whatever, 100 years, that there are these aliens. They're everywhere in the universe, and they probably visiting us. That's nonsense. I'm just here to tell you that's just simply nonsense. And we don't kind of go into those details again, But it really is, people need to understand that that's simply wrong.

Well, and, you know, absolutely. You know, we dealt with this in investing in the supernatural angels and demons. Again, it's CBN.com slash supernatural. And when we dealt with the alien topic, what was so interesting, Hugh Ross, who's an astrophysicist, he breaks down some of the facts around this that were so interesting to me. One thing, in the areas in the country where people report seeing UFOs and aliens the most, those areas tend to have a much higher percentage of people involved. in the occult. Why does that matter? Occult activity opens you up to demonic activity. And so you think

you're seeing these aliens, you think you're seeing these UFOs, you're probably seeing demons that are, you know, masquerading as those things. Also, there's some researchers who have said that when you tell, as you were saying before, if you tell the alien, you know, leave me in the name of Jesus and you bring up Jesus' name, they immediately leave. Well, why is that? Well, if they're demonic, they're leaving under the authority of Jesus. So there's a lot here. Even statistically, you have a higher suicide rate after an alien encounter. I mean, there's so many, quote-unquote, alien encounter. It mirrors possession in many, many ways,

the things that people say they experience. And so when you start to look at that, all those details come together in a pretty compelling way. There's, again, if it's taking your eyes away from Jesus, it's taking your eyes away from God, it's a problem. And I think, as you were saying before, even with the way that, you know, look at Islam and the Quran. And whenever you have an angel showing up and delivering a message,

test that spirit, make sure you know, because listen, angels, they leave. They don't stick around. Demons stick around. Angels deliver a message. Look at Scripture. They show up. They deliver a message and they leave.

And if you try to bow down to them or worship them, they tell you to stop. They are not there to bring glory to themselves. So that's just an important detail. I think we've even done a bad job helping people understand the nature of angels and demons based on what we see in scripture. So your series investigating the supernatural can be found at CBN.com forward slash. supernatural. And our next one is on heaven and hell,

near-death experiences that will come next year. And you mentioned Hugh Ross. I did a Socrates in the city interview with Hugh Ross a couple of months ago in Palm Beach. That is online. If you want to watch my interview with Hugh Ross, I have to say he is an amazing Christian apologist, brilliant, just absolutely brilliant and reliable and wonderful.

and it was my privilege to interview him at Socrates and City. So that's another time he talked about this issue. I lured him into talking about this issue and he's just so logical and beautiful. What's interesting, Billy, is that we're seeing a resurgence in the supernatural, this kind of stuff. The fact that suddenly everybody's talking about this is interesting to me. And it can be used for good or for ill. I think that this was the case, you know, in the 60s and the 70s.

people are into the occult and people are into all this kind of weird stuff, Eastern mysticism and New Age and whatever, but a lot of people were led to Jesus. We have the Jesus movement at that time. So I think you get both together in a way. And so I think it's an interesting thing that people are suddenly asking these questions and opening their minds. But again, we have to have discernment.

And it's funny too because I don't know if I was talking to the other day, but about, you know, Bigfoot, Sasquatch, what is that? Is that real, whatever? And somebody brought up. up the other day, I can't remember who, that that could also be spiritual beings manifesting themselves. That's a possibility. I think it's probably a strong possibility because otherwise, why wouldn't we have found them? Why wouldn't there be the corpse of one? Why wouldn't there? It's interesting. I don't know where I stand on that, but there are too many stories to completely dismiss it. And I think that we,

Sometimes we have to say we don't know. What does the Bible say? Sometimes the Bible doesn't give us the answer we're looking for. It doesn't mention it or whatever. So we have to just be wise and wary, but it is important. So I know you don't have a lot of time here. In the last couple of minutes, what are some of the stories that you talk about in this new episode of investigating the supernatural on CBN? Yeah, you know, there's so much.

We tackle both angels, demons. We get into the alien issue. one issue, and I don't know if you've had him on before, but Dr. Richard Gallagher, who's a psychiatrist out in New York, and he teaches at Columbia, well-respected, Ivy League educated. Normally I don't care about that, but I bring it up because I think you can trust that his credentials are very interesting,

and people on paper would say, well, why is this guy talking about the demonic? And so we feature him pretty heavily in the film. He was approached by the Catholic Church and asked to basically come in and determine whether people were crazy, dealing with mental health issues or whether they were dealing with spiritual issues. He didn't want to do it. He was a skeptic. He said, look, I'm not the person to do this. And they said, no, no, no, you're the perfect person to do it. And he very quickly went from skeptic to believer because he started encountering stories. He could not explain. And one of those stories is a woman named Julia, who was in a satanic cult. I mean, this is pretty rare. She was actually worshiping Satan actively. And she was going through possession because of that.

And so she was brought to him. And there were so many. insane stories that were documented of things that he experienced that convinced him to believe. The day she came to his house, just as one example, he had never met her. The priest was bringing her over. He didn't even know. And the night before she arrives at his house, his cats wake up and they're fighting. You know, the cats are fighting and they're acting crazy. And he and his wife are like, what is going on? They separate the cats out. She gets to his house. They knock on the door. He opens the door. And she asks him, hey, how did you like what happened with your cats last night. I mean, that was her first interaction with this guy. And so it's things like that,

you know, there were much more compelling examples, but that one sort of made me laugh because I thought, well, there you go. She's messing with the cats. But the point is this woman, she never found healing. And we do tell the story in the film. And it's a sad, it's a sad story, but it's also a cautionary tale. So we deal with those kinds of stories. We also deal with miraculous healing and where angels have come in and helped people in small and large ways. But again, against the backdrop of What does scripture say about these things? Lee Strobles in the film, John Burke, lots of great people we know in your audience would know well.

Well, I'm just so thrilled that you are working on this. Folks, it's at CBN investigating the supernatural. Billy Hallwell, Holwell, you, you know, you give me hope because we need to be talking about this more and more and more in the mainstream. So congrats to you on the series. we will certainly have you back to discuss it more. Thank you, my friend. Thank you.