The Eric Metaxas Show - #160 - Brian Mueller

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, Eric previews what he calls a historic election announcement from President Trump, reviews Christopher Nolan’s The Odyssey, and discusses the continued success of his book Revolution. He then talks with Grand Canyon University President Brian Mueller about building one of the world’s largest Christian universities, keeping tuition frozen for 17 years, transforming a struggling Phoenix neighborhood, expanding career programs, and placing biblical truth at the center of higher education.⭐ ORDER NOW:Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World📕: https://a.co/d/0ir3NlapTODAY'S SPONSORS:☀️ Honest, fast, and free Medicare plan guidance: https://askchapter.com/metaxas/

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the program. Some exciting announcements, some disturbing announcements.

I want to do that up front. And in a moment, I'm going to interview the president. This guy, I tell you, the president of Grand Canyon University, Brian Mueller. He is a phenomenon. And what he has done with this Christian University, Grand Canyon University, it is amazing. It is amazing. I was there with him last year,

and I said, I have to interview you about this. My audience has to know about this, okay? We're not getting paid to do this. This is just like public service, so you know what is going on at there. Where is great stuff happening? Because we need to be encouraged.

So that's happening in a minute. Tonight, tonight, President Trump, do not miss this. Do not miss this. 9 p.m. tonight, President Trump, This is historic, ladies and gentlemen.

This is a big, big, big deal. This is historic. If he's going to say what I think he's going to say, I've been waiting for years for this. I have been waiting for years for this. I know many of you have been waiting. This is evidence from the President of the United States that we've had foreign interference in the elections,

that the election was stolen, whatever. The people on the left, who hate him, they don't care about the truth. They do not care. So the New York Times last week referred to this as President Trump's baseless claims.

They put this in there. Like they're baseless, like they know, they know these are baseless claims, right? They're not baseless claims. And the left is, they're freaking out. MS now is freaking out.

They're freaking out because they've been exposed. So tonight, watch it tonight, 9 p.m. Easter. and tomorrow we are going to talk about this. We're going to talk about this on this program tomorrow. Several other things that I have to get in here before we get to Grand Canyon University President Brian Mueller.

Last night, I went to a special pre-screening of The Odyssey. That's the Christopher Nolan film with At Damon as Odysseus. And let me just say up front, miss it if you can. If you can't possibly miss it, well, it's not the worst thing in the world. But it really is fascinating. Chris, you and I were talking about this as I was driving earlier. It's hard to know where to start.

Number one, it is a classic example of somebody spending millions and millions of dollars with tremendous talent. I mean, Christopher Nolan clearly has tremendous talent. and making what amounts to a mess, basically. It's a mess. There are several offensive, stupid things, but putting that aside, putting that aside, it's a mess. The story of, well, I'll say more about that in a second.

I just want to mention two other things quickly before I get onto my thoughts on the Odyssey. And before we get to our guests, two other things I have to mention. Last night as I was getting out of the theater, I got a text. Revolution, the birth of the greatest nation in the history of the world. Last night for the week, it hit number two on the New York Times bestseller list. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the fifth week that it's been near the top of the list.

To go back up to number two, I, as an author who understands the world of publishing, I just want to say what a big deal this is for a book. This is a big deal. And of course, we have no idea if the number one book really is number one. Because remember five weeks ago, they put the Jill Biden book at number one. And we know it was not number one. And it is now, I think if you look on Amazon, my book has been in the top 100 on Amazon for, I don't know, since it came out, since before it came out. Jill Biden's book yesterday was 4,000 something.

Like it has just dropped like a stone down a well. So it tells you about the publishing industry that they push these books. I mean, if the book was selling so, well, what happened? Where did it go? It just did it absolutely disappeared. Well, there are reports of books sort of waddling off on their own to get ice cream at parlors all over the country. So these books are ordering ice cream at all hours of the night.

We're going to explain that joke tomorrow when we have more time. In all seriousness, it is bizarre. It is bizarre. You've got the number one book. So my book's number two. The number one book this week ostensibly is this Maggie Haberman, New York Times hit piece on President Trump. But because the authors are New York Times reporters, can we doubt that they would push it

to number one, whether it was number one or was not number one? No, because they pushed the Jill Biden book to. number one because they're invested in that. So we don't know. But I want to say, if I leave you with nothing else, when a book is on the Nirk Times list for five weeks, when it is at number two twice and at number three and at number eight and at number five, when it's up in that rarefied atmosphere, it ought to be in the front of every bookstore, certainly every Barnes & Noble, it should be in piles. They've got you know, piles of J.D. Vance's book and Mike Pence's book and Jill Biden's book and every other

book on The Revolution. They've got that. So when a book is, you know, at that number, and by the way, the Mike Pence book, that, that felt like a stone like when it came out five weeks, six weeks ago. So the point is that bestselling books like this should be in the front of big bookstores like Barnes and Noble. So if you happen to go by a Barnes & Noble or go into a Barnes & Noble, I would love to know what you find because it seems clear to me that the word has gone out that they don't want to promote this book. They want to hide the book. I told you the story. I went into the South Lake Barnes & Noble a few days ago, which is a conservative area, you know, in Dallas. And there was not one kind of.

copy of this best-selling book, not one copy. And they said they had two books on order to come in, two books. There are piles of all these other books. And so I just say this because, you know, not because it's my book, but it's like, what does this tell you about the world we live in? That Barnes & Noble seems to be invested in not promoting books by what? Somebody who promotes President Trump, somebody whose book was promoted by President Trump? I don't know. If you go into the stores, I would not, ask you, you know, don't say that you're a conservative or you're pro-Trump or you're pro-eric Metaxis or pro-Christian or just don't say, just say this book was number two on the New York Times list. And I notice you don't have copies. What's going on? Like I was going to buy three

copies and I, it's not here. And they say, oh, I can order it. You go, well, I don't have time. I'm just going to order it from Amazon, which you should do. Because Amazon will ship it to you tomorrow. You'll get it tomorrow. And Amazon is not suppressing the book. But if you go to a Barnes & Noble, if you could politely say to them, this book was number two in the New York Times list and I don't see it anywhere here. What's going on? Anyway, I just had to mention that because I was so happy to see it at number two, really just thrilled. Another thing I want to say before we go to our guest and before I say more about The Odyssey last night, driving today, I've seen this before, but I'm driving up 684.

So this is in New York State. You know, it's like you're getting into the lower part of upstate New York as I'm coming into Connecticut. And you see a big sign, you know, in light, air quality alert. I'm going to post this on X. Air quality alert. So you're like, okay, whatever that means. It's, you know, it's going to be hot and humid. Okay, air quality alert.

then it says it tells you limit outdoor activity and i thought who who's telling me how to live my life i'm an adult man in a free country you're telling me limit outdoor activity so this is big brother with your tax dollars telling you how to live how dare they how dare they say that who are they Who has the right to tell me or you or anyone anything? Anything. It's a free country. I can do whatever I want. But somebody has the temerity, somebody in the government to say, limit outdoor activity.

Like, look, I don't live in Canada where the government does that kind of stuff. I live in the United States of America. And I have to say I really, I'm offended by it. that. I mean, this gets to the whole story of my book revolution. Like, we're free men. We're free. You don't tell me anything. You're not my keeper. Who are you? It's the big state. So I want to talk more about that another time, but when I get to The Odyssey now, and then we'll get to, I guess, Brian Mueller for the day. Okay, the Odyssey, it is a mess. I mean, it's an absolute mess. There are good points to it, but they insult you immediately. It insults you immediately.

Who do you first see on the screen? You see some African-American, some, I don't know, black guy from Chicago or something, supposed to be some Homeric figure. But his language, the way he talks, it's not elevated language like you'd seen a sword and sandal epic or something like some British thing where I'm like, no, it's like some guy from Chicago, you know, talking in an American accent. I believe the line of dialogue is New Phone, Who Diss? I think that's what I think that's what it was. No, but I mean, it's just like right there, you're jarred because you're like, what's going on? Where am I?

I thought I was in ancient Greece. Then you see Ellen Page, the boy with the vagina and womb. This is Ellen Page now calls herself Elliott Page as a Homeric hero. This is the first thing you see. So it's like Christopher Nolan is basically saying like, I don't want you to suspend your disbelief. I want you to be reminded that the Hollywood of today, is insane, has to put tons of African-Americans like in a Homeric epic, including Helen of Troy, who I'm pretty sure was Greek.

That's a whole other story. But right up front, it's Ellen Page. And you're supposed to, it's like they're daring you to understand like, they're basically saying, like, no, no, no, it's a Homeric hero. It's a man. And you say, no, no, no, it's on page. I've seen her in other films. Anyway, tomorrow I'll probably go on. I'll have a more, a fuller report, but definitely,

unfortunately, not worth seeing. It's kind of a mess, but not just because of that, just generally speaking, kind of a mess. Okay, here's my interview with Brian Mueller. Stick around. You've often heard me talk about the Golden Triangle of Freedom, that intersection of faith, virtue, and liberty. And for that triangle to hold, we need access to the truth. Unfortunately, the Medicare system often feels designed to obscure the truth. leaving millions on plans that don't actually fit their needs. That's why I want you to know about chapter. Chapter is a rare breed in the health care world, a completely independent advisor that puts your interests first. They help you understand your enrollment options and

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Hey there, folks. You know, if you know me, you know how often I rant and rave about how pathetic most higher education is today. at the top of the ugly list is Yale University, my alma mater. So many of the quote unquote elite colleges really just couldn't be worse. They're propaganda factories. So whenever I bump into evidence to the contrary, a college or university that is getting it right, I'm thrilled. and if possible, I want to tell you about it.

I've done that over the years on this program with a few colleges and universities. But about a year ago, I had the joy while visiting Phoenix of being introduced to Grand Canyon University and to the president of Grand Canyon, Brian Mueller, who is my guest right now. Brian, welcome to the program.

Thank you for having me. I remember that meeting very well. Thank you for your time. Well, listen, thank you for your time. I got to say, honestly, the rarity of a university that's getting it right is cannot be overstated. There are many so-called Christian colleges that are, if not woke, very tolerant of wokeism and lunacy. and I wouldn't want to send a young person there because I don't know what they're going to get.

So that's why when I heard your story and the story of Grand Canyon, I said at some point, I want my audience to know that you all exist and to know the story. So what is this story? First of all, how did you get involved? Because I know that you've been there for a while

and it's been a journey getting Grand Canyon to where it is today. It's a life's an adventure, isn't it? I tell our students all the time. And whatever you think you're going to be doing when you're 72 years old like I am when you're 22, it's probably not going to be even close. And that's certainly true for me. I never intended to be a university president.

But, you know, I started out just wanting to be high school teacher and wanted to coach basketball. And I did that for seven years in high school. And I was a small college professor. And I coached basketball college. I was going down that road. And one thing led to another. I ended up with a organization called the Apollo Group, with a young university of Phoenix.

and there was this new market emerging in higher education, which was a huge market, and we were doing things to address that market, given thousands of people who were on the country a chance to pursue education. And eventually, I didn't have staying here for 22 years, and eventually ran the Apollo Group, ran the University of Phoenix, built up to 400,000 students. And I learned two things that I could have never learned in a PhD program.

One, how to use the public markets to get access to capital. And secondly, how to use the Internet to reach the world. And after 22 years of being there, Grand Canyon called and said, would you be interested in coming over here? Well, after 22 years at the Apollo group where we had built the largest university in the country, 400,000 students were studying online all over the world. And at first I thought, why would we do that? Why would we leave what we've done for 22 years and come here? But then I thought, maybe that's been guys playing all along. We learned two things that we could have never learned in a Ph.D. program.

how to use the public markets to get access to capital and how to use the internet to reach the world. And maybe we could come to Grand Canyon and use those two things to completely flip what's going on in Christian higher education. Build a large, private, impactful university that uses the Bible as a foundational textbook. Go back 200 years where higher education started in this country, which was using the Bible as a foundational textbook. students would come and learn about the world in the context of the real truth about the world. And so we decided to come. You know you're singing my song. You already know that. But I mean, it's such a joy to hear you put it that way. Before we get into the ideological side, because that's the most important.

But what year was this that Grand Canyon came to you and said, will you help us? It was 2008. And so that was 17 years ago. And it was the school had, it was less than a thousand students on campus. There was debt. The buildings had built shortly after World War II. 30 to 30th, I'm on the camelback of Phoenix was the worst place in the city of Phoenix from a crime perspective. And so it was not a pretty picture. Although Grand Canyon had been a small private Christian college for decades and always done a great job, it just was always struggling financially.

But that's the story of Christian higher education. know, we have universities closing all over the country every single year. Figuring out how to flip the economics and make Christian higher education affordable to all socioeconomic classes of Americans was why we came here. And the key to it was we believed two large markets in higher ed and most universities were in one or the other. We believed if we had two large growing student bodies, one with 18-year-old. students on campus, leaving high school and coming to college and having that experience.

And in working adults returning to college, but going online, if we had two large growing student bodies leveraging a common infrastructure, we could flip the economics and make it affordable to all socioeconomic classes of Americans. And, you know, from 2008 to 2011, we were building the online portion of it. In 2011, we thought, you know, this might work. are we really going to build the campus at 33rd abril and camelback in Phoenix, Arizona? And we're a neighborhood of immigrants. 42 languages were spoken with intense square miles of this place. But we thought, you know, maybe that has been the purpose all along.

I tell people all the time, I think if Jesus came back today. I don't know if he'd go to Skoskale at Paradise Valley, which are a great place. I think he would go to a place like this. I say all to our students all the time. Christianity is the only major religion in the world that migrates. Every other religion is started in the place and is still centered in that place. Christianity migrates. It studied in Jerusalem. It went to Europe, across to North America. Now it's growing like crazy in Central America, South America, Africa. Why? Christianity resonates. The gospel resonates with people who are herty. And this was a herding neighborhood.

So what would be a better place to build the largest Christian university in the world in the middle of a struggling, hurting neighborhood and see if we can bring it back? Now, if you had asked my opinion at the time, I would say that's crazy. So this is a bold thing you did. I mean, I know a little bit of the story because I visited with you last year, but practically speaking, how does that work? In other words, I could see parents thinking, wait a minute, what do you mean in the most dangerous neighborhood bringing Christianity? You know, this is my 18-year-old, 19-year-old, 20-year-old son or daughter. How are you going to do that? Now, I know the answer to this question, but I want my audience to hear a little bit about what you were thinking.

You know, it's the, it was, it was looking back, people ask me, did you see this all coming? And I said, listen, we had learned some things. We had a plan. I could have never predicted this. The way this thing has turned out, I could have never predicted it. And we're grateful. We're extremely grateful that God had his hand on this thing and led us through this process. But the first three years, we were building the online programs and growing that online student body.

And that was really successful. We started pouring in 2011, we said, we're staying. We're going to build the campus here. Well, we've put $2 billion in this campus, and most commercial real estate people would say you don't put $2 billion worth of capital improvements in a neighborhood like Nuryvale. But we did. And the thing just was grueling. We're going to start this fall with over 26,000 students on our campus. They're coming from all 50 states.

We've growing from three colleges, just 10 colleges, less than 100 academic programs to over 370 academic programs. fastest growing honors college in America is at Grand Canyon University. Those students are coming from all 50 states. We had two students last week. It turned out Stanford full rides to come to Grand Canyon University's honors college. Our goal is to grow it out to 50,000 students. We have the space to do that. We have the financial resources to do that. We haven't raised tuition in 17 years. Our students take out less debt than the average state university student. over 50% of our students now are graduating in three years. We have 22 advisory boards, over 800 companies on those advisory boards,

because they want access to our graduates. The safety thing, we said, you know, when this thing started a war, you go back to Lyndon Jawsen, the Great Society, the War on Poverty, the welfare system, if you wanted to keep minority immigrant populations down, what you would do is you create a welfare system. I don't think they intended to do that, but that's what they did. did. So we said, if you take a free market entity and you put it in the middle of a neighborhood like this with a Christian worldview perspective, those are the two greatest ideas we think

in the history of the world. The free market thinking, three market capitalism unleashes the ambition God puts in all of us to do something, to be productive, to do some, to do big things. We're born with that ambition. But we accompany that with. We accompany that with. with putting the needs of others in front of ourselves, you put those two things together and you can't stop it. And so we put together what we call a five-point plan after three years and said, number one, a neighborhood like this needs jobs. We've created 16,000 jobs in the last 17 years,

and we hire people in the neighborhood and entry-level jobs. It gives them salary benefits. I think it's in their kids to college for free. The second thing is safety. we have a safety initiative which the design is to go from take this from the darkest place in the city of Phoenix to the lightest place in the city of Phoenix the city of Phoenix police are working with us our own security forces working we've got 82 companies on what's called 27th Avenue that meet three times a year we're pouring money into it we pour 99% of the money into it but we are getting the crime out of this neighborhood the third thing is homes we have the largest habitat for humanity program the world going out in this neighborhood the fourth thing is kids students and students and our neighborhood, raised over $20 million and awarded over $2,300 full rights scholarships and kids that come right out of our neighborhood. And the fifth thing is called city serve. But what's happening is it seems like the more we bless the neighborhood, the more we get

blessed and the better things get. And that's kind of becoming the brand of the institution. That's become a reason a lot of students want to come here. And I understand your point. They are astute. They're, you know, parents don't like sending our kids. away from my own period these days, but this is no longer a dangerous place. I mean, our campus is extremely safe. We have our own security floors, but we're making the neighborhood safe, and we're very determined to do that. So, but I mean, it's just, it's such a wild success story that I want to pick it apart because there's so many pieces to what you're saying. This is a crazy success story. You know that. But what you're doing really, it's so much more than a university. You're bringing

Christian community into a dark place and you're having an effect. This is the church. That's what this is. This is the church, you know, disguised as a university, right? I mean, it's kind of your university, but it's much more than merely a university. You're really inviting the people, the students, and the community into something that's bigger than, you know, merely learning. You know, I think that the, I went to a small Christian college preparing to be a high school teacher, and I loved where I went. But I told them the one thing they got wrong, I thought, was that we've told young people for decades, if you really want to serve Jesus,

you've got to give up your passion in biology or chemistry or business or entrepreneurship or computer science. You have to be a pastor or a teacher. And we need pastors and teachers. And we're a big provider of those. But we want every one of our graduates to believe that they're being called into a sacred vocation, whether it's biology, chemistry, any of those areas. We can crowd into our church on Sunday morning, and I think that's important. But we're not going to change the world that way.

We're going to change the world by bringing the gospel into the workplace. And so graduating 35,000 students on an annual basis, believing that they're being called into a sacred vocation and bringing the gospel into the workplace can have a tremendous cultural impact. The students are learning that here. You know, we've got the Five Point clan. It's getting a lot of attention. But we've got another hundred ministries that our students do. And so they go into the neighborhood at night and they go to a Syrian refugee apartment complex. and for two years, a group of students went to the Syrian refugee complex

and helped the kids with their homework and taught them English as a single language. Towards the end of last semester, that whole community came to a worship service on a Christian college campus, which was kind of a miracle that that happened. But that whole community said, if these kids cared that much about us who they don't even really know, there's got to be something to this Jesus. And so we've kind of, people ask them all the time, well, who are you politically?

And what's your political viewpoint? And, you know, we have the largest turning point chapter in the country on our campus. And so the kids that are politically active tend to be on the right. If I tell people all the time in the city and the state, listen, people on the east side think that we're Republican because we are a Christian university. We exist because of the free market system. People on the West side think we're Democrats because we're about interseat transformation. We're about immigration reform. We've got to write where we want them.

We'll support any politician that supports any policy that supports disadvantaged. I quote us in this place at this time to do that thin. And it's amazing how we can kind of break down the divide without giving up the non-negotiables of our fake. Well, I mean, it's a wild success story. I was there, so I've seen it. I got a tour. But to review, in 2008, Grand Canyon was financially struggling. You now have 100,000 students, and you have frozen the tuition rates for over a decade.

I can just see people saying, like, there's no way this could work. You've really done something just as it's a, it's a, it's a, astonishing. It's absolutely astonishing. And when you talk about, you know, wanting to, I mean, you're touching so many different things, making higher education affordable to different socioeconomic backgrounds, you're doing so many things at once. Where do you see this going? Because it really is, it's amazing. And I think at the heart of it, it's amazing to me because it's so integrated. As I said before, this is the church. You're living out your faith in the context of a university. But you wouldn't expect, you know, a university to lower crime rates in the

area or to minister in the way that you're describing. You wouldn't expect that. So you've brought, I mean, you've brought a completely different model. And I just, I can't help but wonder where this goes from here because this is just an astonishing level of success. You know, it's, and I can't tell you that we saw all of this in 2008. This thing evolved. You know, one of the miracles of it is that we had done what we did at Phoenix. We did what we did at Phoenix. And this was 20 minutes away. And so when they called and said, would you come over here? First, I thought, why would we do that? But then I started thinking about my background in Christian higher education and as a student in elementary and secondary schools and all of that. And I thought, I wonder if that's

been God's plan all along to teach us what we needed to learn so that we could come and do this. And so that's why we came. And I got a hundred or so people that came with me to do this. And then as it was happening, it became kind of obvious why God planted us here, while he was giving us the success. Where does it go? Our ground campus, which is for 18-year-old students, the graduate from high school and going to college, average incoming GPAs keep going up.

Fastest growing honors college in America. We're going to grow up to 50,000 students, I believe, in the next 10 years. They'll come from all 50 states. Parents are unbelievably loyal to this place. We just send our parent council to Washington, D.C. for three or four days and they're so elated that they raised their kids for 18 years and they sent them to a place that wasn't going to turn. And so that's going to happen.

Our online campuses for 35-year-olds going back and studying online, it's 110,000 students. It'll go to 200,000 students. We're building 80 mini-campuses throughout the country. 49 of them are stood up. and it's for students who can't go back as an 18-year-old, but what they need to learn can't be learned totally online. So it's our third kind of delivery system. Nursing, occupational therapy, medical lab science,

any academic area that can help people that they require some learning online and some learning in a physical brick and mortar laboratory. So those campuses are right now about 8,000 students and they'll grow to 48,000 students. Got a fourth pillar that we're, building out. And most people wouldn't do this, but we've got this growing engineering program, and we've got this huge potential in the trades. And most private universities with growing academic

brands wouldn't do this. But we can take kids out of our neighborhood, and we can put them in one semester or two semesters' worth of classes and put them into a $60,000 year job that can become $100,000 in three or four years. As electricians, as machinists as we're going to build that thing out to 10,000 plus students. Why? Because we've got all this space. We've got all these resources. We've got this growing engineering program. I don't care about the tradition of higher education. If we can help kids in our neighborhood step right into a middle class job when their families have been cut and grass for generations, why wouldn't we do that? And so we've got these four growing student body population.

But we still have one president, one provost, one set of deeds, one marketing department, one technology department. We leverage those resources across four growing student bodies and that's where all the leverage is. That's why we've been able to put two billion dollars into the campus grow to three and seven the academic programs without raising tuition on students. And so the the financial model absolutely is proven itself. It works. And we're producing 35,000 graduates and putting them into the workplace. hopefully bringing the gospel into the workplace. And so we don't own this thing. We're stewarding this thing.

It's bigger and better than we could have ever imagined. But I think it is, God is using it as a witness. And hopefully we won't screw that out. That's right. That's the plan. Hopefully we won't screw it up. That's humility. And that's a good thing.

That's beautiful. Because you're a visionary. and, you know, you've done, it is, again, it's astonishing, just as you, as you lay this out. To go back to the beginning, when you talked about, you know, having the Bible at the center, that's what education used to be. All of the colleges that have sped to hell in a handbasket ideologically, starting with Yale University, which is my alma mater, they began as institutions that had the Bible at the center. and they have drifted and drifted and now sped away from that idea.

But you put it at the center of everything. Just talk about that for a moment, if you would, Brian, because it's just so important. And it's obvious that you're doing this in an integrated way. You're living out the Bible. You're creating communities that are living out the Bible in a college or university context. But just say a word about that if you would. You know, when people come and visit our campus and they come by the thousands, you know, inevitably, they'll come and they'll say to me, you know, if things seem different here, your students are polite, they hold a door open, they seem happy, there's a feeling that exists on this campus that's kind of captivating. How did you do that? And I said, you know, I can't do that. That's the Holy Spirit. And so it's the, um, the, you know, the,

The interesting thing about this is that it's a, we centrally create the curriculum. And so we've integrated two things throughout the curriculum, number one, the Christian worldview perspective. And so all of our colleges, all of our programs, over 50% of our courses, has a touchpoint, many touch points in scripture. So that when our students graduate, they're going to know how the Bible speaks in into any profession that they're going into. And so we did that.

The second thing, and we're going through this right now, is we're integrating free market thinking and human flourishing and the natural ambition that God put in all of us to want to do something that's productive and helpful. When you put those two things together, and you know this better than I do, because you've written about it, you speak about it every day, but there is no society in the world

that has produced the level of flourishing that this one has. And it's because of those two ideas. And so, you know, we're right in the middle of AI. Where is AI going to take the world? Where's it going to take jobs? Where's it going to take the university? And there's no question that research and learning can benefit tremendously from implementing what AI can do in the sciences. But back to the mid-60s, you know, are we a healthier society today? Are kids happier? Are they more content?

Do they know who they are? Do they have purpose? There's more anxiety, depression, and suicide amongst our young people than there ever has been. And so what we're trying to help people understand is, yes, AI is going to be important. But as a parent, if your son or daughter is, chooses the wrong career or occupation or isn't initially successful, you'll be disappointed. But not near to the extent if they don't grow up and learn how to build relationships and make friends and have a spouse and have a family. It's those things that are ultimately going to

determine your happiness as a parent. And so getting a student, a young person in the middle of a campus where they are going to be surrounded by profitably and students who are going to put the gospel and in the middle of everything that we do, hopefully, is the biggest source of assurance that you're ever going to have, that your son or daughter is going to end up happy. They're going to end up fulfilled. They're going to have purpose. You know, the human brain doesn't develop fully. until what, we're 24, 25 years old.

So you might say a student doesn't need college. They can use AI to learn this or to learn that. There may be a little bit of truth to that. But it's learning about life, about how to connect to people, about how to build relationships, about how to build friendships, how to build friendships, how to find a spouse, how to build a family. Those things ultimately determine how successful our society is. And so preparing people for careers is tremendous.

important. But combining with that with with with with the truth about the world is equally as important. And obviously many of us think it's more important. Well, look, this is such this is so great just to hear you talk about this. So remind me how many students do you have, uh, you know, that are not online, but, uh, just under 26,000 on our campus. Those are 18 year old students, graduate from my school and going to college. And then we have the 110,000 students who are, those are 45, 36-year-olds going back and studying online. And then we have the hybrid campuses.

But it's the 26,000 students growing to 50,000 students that, you know, the 35-year-old students are going to learn things about life in our progress. But they're raising your old kids down. They're raising your own families. They want to get a master's degree in business administration or engineering or whatever. They want to move their careers forward. or they don't need a lot of socialization. But these 26-year-olds who are in the middle of trying to figure out life and their purpose and all that are the ones that I was mainly referring to that last segment.

You mean that the 26,000, the, and do you have, is it a four-year program? Yeah, if you've here are four-year programs, but over 50% of our students are graduating in three years now. we've got over almost 8,000 relationships with high schools throughout the country. You know, 16 and 17-year-olds, they're not ready to do college, move away from home. A lot of them at 16 years old, but they can do academic work. And if they can earn 20 or 30 or 40 college credits while they're in high school, transfer them here and then graduate from our programs in three years. They get three years of this experience, but they, you know, they take down their expense by 25%.

they get out in the workforce earlier. And so that's one of the things we're kind of selling here. What would it take for you to plan a campus in New York City? I just had to ask you that because I'm in New York City. I'm just thinking how wonderful that would be. I don't imagine that you have plans to do that, but I would love to figure out a way to persuade you to think about it. You know, I read all Tim Keller's books.

I read all your books, but I read them all. I read all of Tim Kelly's books. And, you know, what he did by integrating faith, learning, and work at Redeemer in Manhattan, we just need a lot more of that, a lot more of that. He was willing to take on really smart people, the intellectual community in a loving way. And he was able to do it from a biblical but highly intellectual perspective where he had a huge impact. and to have a university in the middle of New York City that can do that same thing is an interesting concept. We do have some mini campuses in New York where we're doing nursing and some of those things.

We don't have a campus for 18-year-olds, but who knows? We're open. Well, next time I see you in person, we can discuss it. But really just a joy to hear the story. Folks, if you're just tuning in, I've been talking to Brian Mueller, who heads up Grand Canyon University. It is, honestly, it's a phenomenon and it is such a success story that it is amazing. And I can understand how you want to stay humble because this could go to your head. This is really one of those crazy success stories.

But you know, and I know, it's God. It's the Lord. It's his principles. He set you up for this. He prepared you. for this. And when I think of the lives that are being touched, I'm thrilled that you are, you know, you don't say, well, we're good where we are, that, you know, you want to double the students that are that are on the ground there and you want to keep growing because we have a

huge need for this. And I know that there are so many Americans that they, they wouldn't know where to go. And so that's why I wanted to highlight Grand Canyon. It's just a lot of folks have not been aware and I hope through this program and other things, they'll just be aware of what is happening. So Brian,

any final thoughts? Otherwise, I will let you go. I'm so grateful that you could take the time to explain these things. No, only thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for your writing and your podcast and your communication.

You know, we're watching. Charlie Kirk was a big friend of ours. He, turning point is 20 minutes away from Grand Canyon University. If you go over there, over 50% of the employees graduated from Branghan University. And Charlie had a huge impact here because he gave our students the confidence that they could speak the truth of Scripture in a loving way, not having to back up, not having to sacrifice what Scripture says, but could say it in a loving way, in an impactful way, in a way that people would listen.

And so we lost somebody that was really important from that standpoint. But really appreciate what you're doing. And we got an unbelievable school year coming up. Students are starting to trickle back in. And this could be probably going to be our best year ever. We're very excited. So we'd love to have you come and visit. I will be visiting.

Stay tuned. We're working on that. Folks, I've been talking to Brian Mueller, president of Grand Canyon University. Brian, thank you so much. God bless you. You too. Thank you very much.