The Eric Metaxas Show - #168 - David Rives

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, science educator David Rives joins Eric to discuss fine-tuning, DNA, the origin of life, cellular complexity, animal instinct, and why modern scientific discoveries increasingly point toward intelligent design. They also discuss the Wonders Center and Science Museum, the Genesis Science Network, and how belief in purposeful creation changes the way people understand their lives.⭐ ORDER NOW:Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World📕: https://a.co/d/0ir3NlapTODAY'S SPONSORS:🛏️ MyPillow — Save BIG with code ERIC: https://www.mypillow.com/☀️ Honest, fast, and free Medicare plan guidance: https://askchapter.com/metaxas/

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Hey folks, welcome to the show. As usual on the show, I play the role of host, but the good news is there are guests. For example, today, we're going to be. going to be talking about science and faith. And then later on, we'll be talking about faith and science. My guest is David Reeves. David is a science educator, biblical scholar, author, TV host, documentary producer. He's the founder of the Genesis Science Network and the Wonders Center and Science Museum. David Reeves, welcome to the program.

Thanks for having me here. You know I love talking about this stuff. I can't get enough of it. I wrote a book called Is Atheism Dead where I deal with faith and science. And it's something that has obsessed me. We're turning it into a TV series. And I am fascinated by how science is effectively proving God. Every single day there's more evidence.

And it's not sort of evidence. It's like open and shut. It's embarrassing, I think, for people who really want to be atheist. at least if they dare to look at it. And a lot of the evidence, I guess, which is what I want to talk to you about, has to do with, I guess, what we call fine-tuning,

that you look at something and we now have the ability via science to say there's not any way that that could have happened randomly, not the odds are zero effectively. It looks designed. And so you say, say that we're living in a moment in history that we could describe as the age of design. So say

what you mean about that. You know, throughout the ages, we have gone through these different ages, whether it is the Industrial Revolution or whether it was the Age of Enlightenment or the, or the Renaissance, or whatever it might be. And through those, great science was accomplished. And we discovered incredible things about the universe around us. And we discovered incredible things about life in general. But I believe at this point, we're living in an age of design, the age of design,

where everything, all modern scientific discoveries, the cutting edge research. Eric, I'm talking about the things that are hitting the headlines every single day on media sources. Those are all pointing to not just complexity, no, ordered complexity,

which is something that we like to call design. And design typically implies that there was a designer involved. Well, so give us some examples of this because I think that oftentimes when I talk to people about this, they want something to sink their teeth into. So what do you mean by that, right? Because I understand, but for folks who maybe are not as aware of this. Well, Eric, you mentioned the fine-tuning argument, right? We could go to a universal scale and we could look at how all of the universe appears very carefully crafted, so carefully crafted that in the midst of a massive galaxy,

that we call the Milky Way, we just so happened to be in between the Sagittarius and Perseus arms nestled in the perfect spot. If you were to look at the center of our galaxy, the core, well, it's thought to contain a massive black hole, which means that anything that

passes the event horizon is gone forever. Not even light can escape. So I wouldn't want to live there. I don't think you would either. At the same point, if we were to push too far out towards the outer edges of our galaxy, we see these elemental deficiencies. And so we don't have enough heavy elements that make up us, that make up the

things in the room or in the studio today. So I wouldn't want to live there either. It just so happens that in those arms, there are a lot of stars in the Milky Way galaxy. And so anytime you get a lot of stars packed into an arm of the Milky Way, of this beautiful spiral galaxy, there's a threat of supernova, right? There's a threat of an exploding star that might be too close to you. And that exploding star could wipe out all life on earth. And yet, we're nestled in between two arms, not in the center, not out on the farther edge, but in the perfect spot for life. And you could call that a coincidence, but I put that in air quotes because once you start stacking these things up, we see this design that seems like we're in the perfect spot for life. And it's so perfect,

Derek, that many astrophysicists who want to look at it from a naturalistic perspective, who want to look at it from an atheistic perspective, that's the reason they're heading towards a multiverse model to try to create enough chances, enough universe that somehow all of these factors can line up. And the fact of the matter is that brilliant mathematicians calculating those odds tell us that it's mathematically improbable. And then you're like, hey, what is that? This is what I find funny about it.

I mean, and also just to frame things for people, ladies and gentlemen, all of this stuff that we're discovering, it's new. A hundred years ago, 50 years ago, we couldn't know this. So science, this is, again, to me, the headline, we've been all alive at a time where people have been saying, I've heard it my whole life, that the more we learn from science, the more evidence we have to show why we don't need God. And exactly the opposite has been happening. The more science learns, the more it sees things that are shocking that we could not see before. So what you just described David about, you know, where our planet is in the galaxy, normally I guess people would have thought, well, what does it matter? We now know it matters.

We now know that it just happens to be in the ideal place. and it goes on and on and on from there. The size of the planet, the other planets around us in the solar system, all of this stuff, which even a hundred years ago or less, we couldn't have known the significance of it. Because of science, because of the march of science, more and more and more we see that it looks like everything was designed perfectly so that we could exist.

And again, there's a delicious irony in this, that people that are materialists, what do they do? And we know some of what they do is they just kind of make up crazy theories like multiverse theories. But it's gotten very embarrassing for people who they don't want to follow the science. Let's be honest. They're not true scientists. Well, Eric, people tell me all the time, you know, you have to follow the science. And we've heard that parroted for the last several years. follow the science, to which I emphatically reply, yes, you can follow the science, but don't

follow the scientists because scientists are taking raw data. They're taking science, and then they are interpreting it. And if they decide to interpret it in a way that points towards naturalism, well, then they can figure out a way to manipulate the data. Now, at the same time, I love to point out that a lot of times the intellectual atheists said, hey, we've done away with the need for God. We've shown that nature is all there is. I wrote in one of my books a concept about this because they haven't really done away with the need for God. They've replaced God. They've replaced one deity for a pantheon of deities, right? Oh, Mother Nature can accomplish anything. They may call it just naturalism, but it's actually deifying nature.

Just given enough time, anything can be accomplished. Well, all of a sudden, you've taken time and you've placed it on a pedestal and said, it can work magic. But the fact of the matter is, it takes intelligence to write, let's just say, the code of life that is inside every person listening to this right now. And that points to the idea that you are designed. If you have an information language system that we call DNA written inside of you, and that information language system would fill one, 1,200 encyclopedia volumes, well, that's a lot of information. But that's still a small collection of information

to build something as complex as the human body. So therefore, it's very efficiently written, written in a three-dimensional way so that more information can be packed in a tight space. And if that doesn't get everyone excited about how intricate they are, we have to realize, Eric, that entire 1,200 encyclopedia volumes of information that is their genome can be found in nearly every cell of our body.

So we've got enough information inside of us right now to fill up every book in the Library of Congress multiple times over. And yet we say that that book must have just written itself. Now, it's so silly that I have to say, I'm amazed. I mean, when we know that the structure of DNA was discovered, you know, in the mid-50s, Watson and Crick. And 75 years later, people still cling to the belief that this extraordinarily, almost unbelievably complex code information just emerged from the mush, from the soup. I mean, it's sort of fascinating just to think about how deceptive the human mind can be,

that people would have something like that staring them in the face and would just refuse to believe that we must have missed something because it sure does look designed. Well, a lot of that has come about via pure pressure in the academic community. And so when one professor parrots something, everyone seems to fall in line. And then the student becomes the professor parroting the exact same thing. So unfortunately, that's just the way it works.

But when all of science, when all discoveries in the modern scientific world are pointing to the idea that you are designed, and that's what my colleagues and I have been working on this age of design concept, we have to take a second look. It's time to rewrite the book. It's time to stop parroting what our professors of three generations ago told us in biology class and instead say, perhaps there's another side to the story. and perhaps we should be open-minded enough as scientists to not be stuck in this little box of naturalism and humanism and instead say, what if there is a grander purpose bound at all? Actually, that points back to science because the very fact that the origin of life issue cannot be answered scientifically, the origin of life, the origin of matter, those types of things can't be answered through scientific nature. means. Those things actually break scientific laws and observations of the universe. So if you can't

explain the origin of the universe and the origin of life through natural physics or natural means, then that means that the origin of life or the origin of the universe may very well have come from supernatural. Now, I'm not getting all esoteric. I'm not getting philosophical. I'm just to, I mean, just to clarify for people, because this was this was why I wrote my book as a atheism dead. Because I've been interested in apologetics for years, but there's a chapter in my book is atheism dead. And the whole book comes as a result of my conversation with Dr. James Tour, who's at Rice University. He's a nanoscientist, a brilliant, one of the greatest scientists in the world. I mean, I don't think that's debatable. But I remember having this conversation with him,

and I'd not thought of this. And I'm embarrassed now, and I was embarrassed then, to think that I had not thought of this before because, you know, we can argue about evolution and we've all had these conversations, but the question of how did life come into being? Any scientist will say, most scientists will say, oh, we know four billion years ago, single-celled life appeared. We know that. And you say, okay, single-celled life appeared. You say, you know that. So a single-celled life is a cell. Any more simple and it's not life. So the simplest form of life is a cell. Great. It happened. How did it happen? They have no, I mean, to say they have no idea. I think 70 years ago, they had no idea. Now, I think they know that it's not really

plausible that something is complex as a single cell, unbelievably complex. You know, it's like saying finding a laptop at the beach and saying, you know, it's possible that the wind and the waves created that. It's possible. It's possible. And you say, well, actually, no, it's not possible. It's too complex. Given infinite time, you're not going to get a laptop from the wind and the waves. And people say, well, given enough time, it's possible. No, actually, it's not possible. But that's what we're talking about when we talk about a single cell appearing. How did it appear? I mean, that to me is just one of the ultimate examples, is that the emergence of life, the origin of life, which you referenced, I'm just boggled that scientists would not just say,

Uncle, you got me. Yeah, we don't know. I don't believe in God, but, you know, yeah, it couldn't have just happened. And Eric, you know, it's easy to say, oh, God did it, right? That's just the stock response for everything. We understand that there are some mysteries yet to be, yet to be discovered within the scientific community, within the biological community. or within the astronomical community.

But at the same time, when you basically have to break laws of the universe to create life from non-living matter, which, by the way, we've never observed, never. And every time I crack open a can of soup, I'm doing an experiment on the origin of life, right? I've got chemicals here that once we're living organics in this can of soup,

and I've never cracked open the tin, and there's a little creature appears out of it. No, life never comes from non-living materials, at least never in all of our millions of observations. Yet somehow you just hit the nail on the head when you said, well, the first living cell appeared. Appeared is a magical word with no science behind it. Right.

Well, they just know, they say we know that, you know, in the scheme of over time at some point being there's single cells. But yes, they act as though, well, somehow it happened. And we don't know yet, but we're figuring it out. But with James Torr, and if people want to read about this, they can just read, I think I wrote one or two chapters in my book, is atheism. But, I mean, it becomes really clear that the more we've looked into this,

since the famous experiment, the Miller-Urie experiment, University of Chicago, 1952, since then, the more we've looked into it, the more we know, you can't really, proteins can't assemble themselves. We've figured it out.

They can't happen. But there's still people clinging to this, still people trying to get funding to show how something as infinitely complex as a single cell of life could just happen. You know, here's the thing, there are people hungry, now more than ever, to learn the truth behind real science, real scientific discoveries. And that's one of the things that we've been tackling so hard at the Wonder Center

and Science Museum. We only opened two years, two and a half years ago. And I was so frustrated by walking through science museums all around the country and all around the world, whether I was on a speaking tour or whether I was doing filming in Great Britain or whatever the situation might be, I would always walk into the local science museum. And I would see 90, 90, 95% real science. And then there would be that 5 to 10% religious dogma attached. And that is that what is classically known as the atheistic perspective, but the atheistic perspective is not doing a way with theism, not doing a way with God, it's simply rejecting the God of the Bible in replacing it basically with these other gods or other magical supernatural deities. So I said, why in the

world couldn't we have a science museum that has 100% good science? You could walk through it as a skeptic, you could walk through it as an atheist, you could walk through it as an agnostic, and you would enjoy that museum. But at the same time, we also share a perspective of design. And so two and a half years ago, we opened up the Wonders Center and Science Museum just outside Nashville, Tennessee. I was just going to ask you where that is. So when you say outside Nashville, what part of Nashville? Dixon, Tennessee. So it's 35 minutes due west of downtown right off of I-40. It's over 100,000 square feet. And that makes it the largest science museum in Tennessee. But guess what? It's also the largest science museum in the world from, let's just say, a Judeo-Christian perspective. I had to think

about this for a while before we opened because I was like, well, is it the largest science museum in the world from a faith-based perspective? And then I said, no, every science museum has faith in something. It's just the agenda is being pushed from an atheistic perspective. So we have been astounded because we have families coming in from all over the world where there are kids hands-on activities, or dinosaur dig pits, are full-size, 55-foot-long dinosaurs,

are actual meteorites that fell from space. We have NASA memorabilia, collections from friends and colleagues of mine who spent two years on the International Space Station. We have a planetarium that ranks top 10 in the world, based on size and technology, out of over 4,000 planetariums.

But we're doing all of this from a perspective that says, hey, you're not just an accident of the cosmos. You're not just star stuff. You're actually created with purpose. And that's pointing us back to an age of design, the idea that you are designed with purpose. And that leads us to the atrocities of society today.

Because, Eric, I know you know, and I know you've covered it on your program before. We're dealing with teen suicide on the rise. We're dealing with 22 veteran suicides every single day. We've got school shootings and childhood depression rising. And I ask myself every day, why? Could it be that we have taught the last several generations that they are simply accidents or animals,

that there is no purpose to life? Could that be playing in on these societal plagues that we are seeing? And indeed, I believe that there is substantial evidence that shows that when people realize that they actually were created with purpose, they will live with a different mission and a different mentality. My Pillow's second annual mega sale is finally here. Get our patented premium My Pillows that adjust to your exact individual needs to give you the best sleep of your life. When I got my pillow, I'm asleep almost immediately.

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But that's not all. Order right now and we'll ship your order absolutely free. This is very, very important for people to think about. Folks, imagine if you're being told that we emerged by accident out of the primordial soup, there's no God, your life has no meaning. You're not special. You're no different than an amoeba. or a plant, it just appears that way, but in fact, there's nothing special.

You're not created in the image of God, there is no God, you're just what you are, and when you die, that's it, and that's the story. And oh, we're just being truthful. That's that, if you're taught that, now by the way, none of that is true, but if you're taught that, when life gets tough, what do you take away?

My life is meaningless, does it make any difference if I kill myself? Of course not. What difference would it? make. The idea that God did not create me with a purpose, that there's not a plan for my life, that there's a loving God who wants me to know him and to walk with him and to be with him in all of eternity, if you don't know that, if you're being taught this other thing, it leads to tremendous bleakness and hopelessness. And that's just what.

what you're saying, David, it's if it follows. It follows logically. And so even if people aren't saying it, even they're not spelling it out the way I just did, they just say nothing. You know, in your moment of doubt and pain, where's your brain going to go? I'm not, I'm nothing special.

Yeah. Folks, science shows us, and the Bible shows us, you're more than special. You're created in the image of God by a loving God who, desires you to be in existence and for you to exist with him forever. That is beautiful and hopeful.

And when things get tough, if you know that's true, boy, it's different. So it is amazing, David, how what you believe on this stuff really matters. And I know that's an important thing for you. Now, I just kind of ask your story, were you raised in the faith? How did you end up pursuing this line of work that you're in? When I was seven years old, I received the Lord, absolutely. So I was raised in a Christian household. But at eight years old, I started picking up fossils in my backyard and realized that every fossil tells a story.

At 16 years old, I started looking to a telescope at galaxies that most people had never had the opportunity to see for themselves. And I said, wow, what if I could take a photo of these galaxies, of these nebulae, of these beautiful structures in space? and share them with my friends. And so at 16 years old, I started connecting cameras, primitive techniques to try to connect cameras to the back of these telescopes and get a photo of space, astrophotography. At 16, I took a picture of the Great Orion Nebula, which, by the way, Orion, the constellation is mentioned multiple times in the Bible,

in Amos 5, Job 38, Job 9, but this beautiful little cloud in the constellation Orion, it's called the Great Orion Nebula. It has a trapezoid-shaped structure of stars right in the center called the trapezium, where those stars are so bright that they light up the entire nebula, the dust cloud, the Latin fur cloud. And I looked at that, and my jaw hit the floor. And I said, I've always seen these pictures in Sky and Telescope Magazine.

I've always seen the Hubble Space Photography, but I did not assume that a 16-year-old kid like me would ever be able to take something so beautiful, so close to what I've seen in the magazines. And then the second thing that hit me, Eric, was Psalm 19, which states that the heavens declare the glory of God. So I got to thinking about that. I'm like, wow, it's almost like the heavens are shouting out. The design that we see in every galaxy is shouting out that there is a grand designer,

that we are not star stuff, the result of some accident, but instead we're made in God's image. And then the next thing that hit me was, why am I keeping this to myself? Why couldn't I use this as a almost a mission field to use my love for astrophysics, my love for fossils, my love for science, and then say, well, does science and our faith go hand in hand? Dr. Werner von Braun stated a lot of people look at science and religion as antagonists. He said, but they're not. They're sisters.

Science tries to better understand creation, the world around. us and religion tries to better understand the creator, well, wait a second, you can't have creation without a creator. One and the other go hand in hand and the most recent discoveries within the scientific community are pointing us there. So if science is probably one of the most substantial stumbling blocks for the Christian faith within the last few generations, why wouldn't we be using science? Why would we simply be talking about, oh, well, now let's read Romans this, let's read Timothy this. Yes, we need those things. But as a Christian, I say that we also need the incredible complexity and design of the cosmos, the scientific

world, which just as strongly points us back to the very creator of it all, and I believe to the ultimate creator, Jesus Christ. I was going to say, I actually, in writing my book as atheism dead, I got to a point where it became frightening almost to see when you realize who God is. I mean, if you think for a minute, you know, because we think, oh, God, Jesus is my buddy. It's like, well, listen, folks, imagine God invented and created the universe. There's something frightening about that. You realize God is, he's so far beyond my ability to comprehend. He designed atomic structure.

He designed the universe. He created the universe. It's heart stopping. And then you realize, but he sent Jesus to show us the other side. He created us in his image. And he becomes a person, sends a person to humanize literally who he is. Because otherwise, it's too much to take in that this God designed this universe. It's so perfect.

I guess what amazed me as I was doing my research was that the levels of design. It's almost infinite and it is, I mean, perhaps it is infinite, but it is just almost too much to bear. You think he create every single thing. You talk about the galaxy, the shape of the galaxy, the type where we are in the galaxy. Everywhere you look, there's design. The whole universe exists so that. that we could breathe air and worship God on this tiny planet in the middle of it all, there's something overwhelming about it.

I mean, I have to say that I, you know, I say to people, if you study honestly creation and you realize that God has done this, look at what he's done, and the proof is clear, that's clear, the more you look, the more clear it is that it didn't just happen. It's just, it's kind of overwhelming. So I agree with you that we're living in an age of design, that it's becoming pretty much impossible. It was possible 100 years ago to just ignore, really to live in ignorance. But now that we have telescopes that can see certain things and we have microscopes that can see certain things, we are without excuse.

Let's put it that way. And that's, again, a biblical term, Eric. And that's what we're seeing at the Wonders Center in Science Museum is an agnostic walks through. They bring their four-year-old child, right? And sometimes I get to interface with these when I'm on my way through the TV studio or meeting people at the museum. And I'm like, are you enjoying your experience? And they say, well, we're an agnostic. Our child is loving it.

And we're taking it in, you know, but we don't necessarily agree with some of the design perspectives that I've seen. And that's okay. That's okay. but at least be intellectually open enough to consider the possibility that the most intellectual position is becoming the design argument. It always has been, but it's now with the advances in science, it's hard to escape that. So with the Wonders of Zoology exhibit hall at the Wonders Center, you know, there's live animals walking through the halls of this museum. With the Wonders of the sea. You're looking at sharks and eels and all of these sea creatures that appear very well

crafted for their particular environment, right, for their ecosystem. And you have to ask yourself, well, can this simply all happen through unguided processes or is there a mind behind the incredible complexity? The way I like to put it is, don't we see the very fingerprints of God from the farthest galaxy in the cosmos to the very microscopic structure of our DNA. And those fingerprints are pointing back to not just design in general. We always take it one step further. We always say, well, it's intelligent design for sure. But boy, is it pointing us back to the designer of the universe, the God of the Bible, Yahweh, the one that we've read about when we pick up his word because there are, you could say, aliens who might be designers. There might be another

God out there who might be a creative designer, right? But there is only one historical record, and that is God's word, what we call the Bible, one historical record that has stood the test of time. I mean, it spoke of things that we shouldn't have known about as, you know, several thousand years ago as goat herders or shepherds, as the atheist like to put it, right? They wrote things that they should not have had privy to, have been privy to. And yet those things they wrote down several thousand years ago are still standing up to the good science test today, long before we were ever to disord. Well, that's the conundrum, right?

How in the world could something that is ancient literature be talking about stuff that we now know, oh, they got that right. What a coincidence. Now, you've written a book, you've written several books, but one book is called 21 verses backed by science. What is that? 21 versus backed by science is that exact concept. And so what I take is I go through Old Testament, New Testament, just scattered verses, they're not random verses. They are picked because I'm looking for verses that we could use the scientific method to test, that we could actually say, is this good science? And, and then dive into it. And so I picked 21 specific verses throughout the scriptures

and ask a question, does the Bible know best? And should the author of this book have known the answer that he wrote down? And so many times the answer, I'll spoil the book for you, the answer is no, the author would not have known about it because science didn't even catch up until, let's just say, the 1600s, or the 1800s, or colonial times or whatever the situation might be. And that points to the very idea baked into Christianity that our Bible is divinely inspired. It's not simply a collection of writings by shepherds and poets and kings.

Even though it is a collection of writings by shepherds and poets and kings, it is more than that. It was inspired so that they would write down words maybe they didn't fully understand. And yet those words stand the test of time. So that's 21 verses backed by science. Now, I want to be clear, your name is Reeves. It's spelled R-I-V-E-S. Folks, if you're looking up David Reeves, it's R-I-V-E-S. And is there a website where people can find you?

Yeah, David-R-I-V-E-S.com. You can get to all of our projects, including the museum and my books and everything from there. And what is the Genesis Science Network? Oh, my goodness. A number of years ago, I got frustrated with watching Discovery Channel and National Geographic and Animal Planet and seeing the most beautiful slow motion photography with a custom orchestral score behind it and hearing all of these scientific facts stacked up with these incredible creatures and talking about the design or whatever the situation might be. and then at the end of the program, they attribute all of that design to chance processes. And I said, why couldn't we have a network

that is like the Discovery Channel, but it is all based on Christian principles? Well, that vision turned into reality. First online and then on Roku, Fire TV, iOS, Apple TV, and beyond. And then Terrestrial Station started to pick it up and rebroadcast it. So it's a 24-7 television network,

100% free of charge, no subscription fees. It is light Discovery Channel, but it is all based off of a design concept. And we get salvation reports from people who are watching this science network. And then they realize there has to be someone behind it all. So that's the Genesis Science Network, and it is available free of charge. You can find that on our website as well. You've often heard me talk about the Golden Triangle of Freedom, that intersection of faith, virtue, and liberty.

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not marketing, call chapter at 571-4-1-2-5-3. That's 571-4-21-1253. It's time to find the clarity you deserve. Well, this is all very encouraging. It's funny, my dad, who just passed away a couple of years ago, he often told me this story that when he was young, his grandmother would tell him about an event in the 1870s when she was a young woman walking with her fiancé, who was my great-grandfather, and he bends down and picks up, An aunt puts it on his finger and says, so this is the 1870s, long before Einstein, he takes this aunt and shows his fiance and says, tell Mr. Newton to make me one of these. That's profound. When you think of an aunt, the complexity, this is life. They are building ant hills. Everywhere we look, it is frightening. God's design is overwhelming, amazing.

And all you need to do is look at an ant and say, okay, how did this happen? Can a scientist even begin to begin to make something like this? The answer is no. They've pretended for a long time that, oh, yeah, we can figure that out. We got the origin of life. You know, it's kind of funny. In the 19th century, you know, they would talk about vague terms like protoplasm and the life essence. They would throw these terms around, but the more science has

progressed, the more we say, okay, we can now see what is inside a cell. We can now see, well, there you go. Yeah, Charles Darwin. He called it, you know, a simple bag of protoplasm or basically this little simple thing, a bag of goo or a bag of protoplasmic material or, He used these terms that basically relates the single cell as this simple thing. And then as science progresses, we find that one cell is more complex than an entire metropolis. One cell has so many mechanisms going on inside of it that we still don't understand them all. And worse yet, like the damning blow to this whole concept of chance naturalism is the idea that there are mechanisms, things like topoisomerase enzyme number two, which is a huge word, but it's an enzyme that is working inside of our DNA, going down it, finding catination points or knots in our DNA, and relieving the strain of those knots. so that those cells can be replicated.

Well, guess what? The enzyme is needed to keep the DNA healthy, and yet the DNA is what produces that enzyme. The DNA instructions are what produced that enzyme. It's a chicken and egg problem, Eric. It can't have originated separately. It had to have been an engineered concept built in from the first or else DNA would not function from day one.

I mean, I keep saying again, it was in the course of writing my book as atheism did, that this stuff became so clear to me that I thought, this is embarrassing. I mean, people who cling to the idea that this stuff could just happen, it becomes so preposterous. All you have to do is look at a beaver dam. You think that beavers, mammals, could figure out how to do that? Like, how did that happen? When I was a kid, I saw some Baltimore Orioles building a nest.

It is a, they are weaving, ladies and gentlemen, you understand we're talking about birds weaving grasses into a basket that hangs from a weeping willow branch. Birds with a bird brain weaving, how did that happen? How did evolution produce birds that? everywhere you look, you see examples of design and God's hand. I don't know. I guess I honestly, David, I am mystified that there are so many people that still cling to the idea that, well, we'll figure it out.

Yeah. It really takes blocking off an entire section of your brain not to see this and to just say One day science will figure out how this could happen naturally. You mentioned Orioles, right? I lead African photo safaris. I call them creation safaris to South Africa. Book out entire reserves. And we look at the bird life.

We look at the giraffes and we do elephant experiences. But I love the birds, right? You've got this hornbill in Africa who the male will have the female go into a hollow of a tree. and then he will begin to gather mud and sticks and seal the female inside the hollow of that tree with just a tiny little slit that is still visible, right? And so the female begins to pluck out all of her feathers inside the hollow of the tree and use those as a nest, right?

Well, the male starts bringing the female food and that long hornbill fits perfectly through this little slit, right? he doesn't want any predator getting to her because she's about to have babies. Well, this process goes on for months. He continues bringing food to her and the young until they're able to actually come out. And then he breaks open that opening in the tree again and they all fly out. That is instinctual behavior.

That can't be learned behavior because the first time the male hornbill doesn't seal the female in the tree and the predator gets it, well, he's not, he's like, my young or dead, I guess I'm going to try to do better next time. No, death is the enemy. Death makes it where they can't learn this behavior over generations. It had to have been instilled inside of them from the beginning.

It's off the charts. This is why I think we have to mock the idea of evolution producing this. You have to mock it. It's not just like, well, it's not true. you have to mock it. It's so silly. It is so silly. So in the, if people go to David Reeves, r-I-V-E-S dot com, do you have videos or do you have the programming on the Genesis network, Genesis Science Network. Do you, have you gotten to a point where you're talking about things like this on different programs? We do. Every week. I have a podcast and I also have a

television program that goes up on the network called Genesis Science Report. It's a one hour basically news show where I tackle the breaking scientific discoveries of this week and then say, hey, you've seen them in the headlines. You've seen new alien planet discovered that probably contains extraterrestrial life. You've seen, we've discovered the God particle, which means that we don't need God. You've seen all of these things. And every time you see them in the sector media, Well, that very week, we addressed them on the Genesis Science Report, but from a design perspective. And all of that is up on the website as well as on Genesis Science Network if you download the apps on Roku or Fire TV or Apple TV or wherever you're watching. It's something that is powerful.

It's very needed. And it relieves one stumbling block that has plagued our children and our grandchildren for the past few decades. Does science preclude the idea that the, does science mean there cannot be a God? And the answer is science, the scientific world is pointing us back to a designer. Not just any designer, no, it's the God of the Bible. Yeah, no, look, it's absolutely, it's inescapable, folks. We're at a point now where it's inescapable. I mean, if your friends don't want to believe there's a God, tell him not to read

books, tell them not to think, because if you think a little bit and you read the wrong stuff, you're going to be in big trouble. So I hope people will find you at David Reeves, R-I-V-E-S-D.com at the Genesis Science Network at the Wonders Center and Science Museum outside Nashville. You've got a lot of books out. The podcast is called Changing the Narrative. Didn't mention that, Changing the Narrative, and the TV program is Genesis Science Report. David Reeves, just a joy to get to know you a little bit. Thanks for coming on the program. Thank you so much for having me.

And I look forward to having you at the museum sometime. I look forward to that. Thank you.