The Eric Metaxas Show - #174 - Larry Taunton and Laurence Fox

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, Larry Taunton and Laurence Fox discuss the viral Oxford Union debate over whether the West should be suspicious of Islam. Taunton explains how the debate was nearly canceled, how he helped Fox prepare, and why the audience’s reaction became part of the argument itself. Fox then reveals the strategy behind his now-famous envelope stunt, explains why he believes Britain has surrendered ground on free speech, and discusses his plans to enter British politics. Eric and Larry also examine the Democratic Socialists of America and the relationship they see between socialism, Islamism, and political power.⭐ ORDER NOW:Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World📕: https://a.co/d/0ir3NlapTODAY'S SPONSORS:🛏️ MyPillow — Save BIG with code ERIC: https://www.mypillow.com/☀️ Honest, fast, and free Medicare plan guidance: https://askchapter.com/metaxas/0:00 Larry Taunton And Laurence Fox Preview1:13 Larry Taunton Joins1:37 The Oxford Debate They Tried To Stop5:52 Should The West Be Suspicious Of Islam?11:32 The Strategy Behind Fox’s Envelope Stunt18:03 How The Audience Proved His Point24:55 Socialism And Islam’s Path To Political Power35:56 Laurence Fox Joins38:43 Britain, Free Speech, And Fox’s Political Future- - -LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ericmetaxas#EricMetaxas #TheEricMetaxasShow #News #PoliticsChapter and its affiliates are not connected with or endorsed by any government entity or the federal Medicare program. Chapter Advisory, LLC represents Medicare Advantage HMO, PPO, and PFFS organizations and stand alone prescription drug plans that have a Medicare contract. Enrollment depends on the plan’s contract renewal. While we have a database of every Medicare plan nationwide and can help you to search among all plans, we have contracts with many but not all plans. As a result, we do not offer every plan available in your area. Currently we represent 50 organizations which offer 18,160 products nationwide. We search and recommend all plans, even those we don’t directly offer. You can contact a licensed Chapter agent to find out the number of products available in your specific area. Please contact Medicare.gov, 1-800-Medicare, or your local State Health Insurance Program (SHIP) to get information on all of your options.

Hey, folks, welcome to Wednesday, August 5th. Big surprise today. In a moment, I'm talking to our friend Larry Taunton. Okay? Larry Taunton is friends with my friend Lawrence Fox, who just debated at the Oxford Union. So I'm going to talk to Larry Taunton about Lawrence Fox's amazing debate on Islam

at the Oxford Union. Union. And then we have a surprise. At the end of the program, we didn't think this was possible, but it turns out that it was possible. We will get after my conversation with Larry Taunton, which is coming up right now. After that, I'm going to talk to Lawrence Fox himself. Very exciting. I didn't think we could get him from Mary Old England. So stay tuned right now, Larry Taunton. And at the end of that, I get to talk to the man himself, Lawrence Fox. So stick around. Hey there, folks, welcome to the program. It's the Eric Metaxus show.

I play the role of Eric Metaxus. This is the show. I think later on in the program, we will have John Zemirak coming on. By the way, that's a threat. But right now, we have Larry Taunton back. Larry, welcome back. Great to see you.

Good to be with you, Eric. What's new in your neck of the woods? Where do we begin? We want to talk about our mutual friend Lawrence Fox who debated at the Oxford Union the other day. Yeah, he actually did it about six weeks ago. It just took them a while to get the... Are you serious? Yeah, yeah.

This took place. Listen, this is the best news I've heard because I was in Oxford the other day. I was there. I interviewed our friend John Lennox. It was a big Socrates in the city thing. And suddenly I see this thing. And it looked like it happened the night before. And I thought, you mean I was in Oxford and I missed it?

So you're telling me I didn't miss it. No, no, you didn't miss it. You'll recall that I was in Oxford about, well, about six weeks ago, maybe two months now. And I was there to see John. But I was there chiefly to be there in support of Lawrence. Lawrence. And Lawrence comes to my home, you know, a couple of times a year he and his wife, Lizzie. And this year he came in May just so for a week we could prep for this debate. So he'd been invited to do this debate in, you know, maybe April. And the debate was supposed to take place in late May. And so he came, we prepped, we laid out a strategy for that. And then I was flying over. So he went home and then I came right behind him with the intention of being the friendly face of the crowd. Having done these debates, it matters to be able to see someone, you know, particularly with a very hostile, you know, audience to see a friendly face or two in the crowd.

Obviously, Lizzie was going to be there and a few others. And then they, you know, so I was there for that and in Oxford for that. And then pressure from the Bishop of Oxford, Bishop, who is pro-LGBQ and everything else, they were saying, you know, this debate shouldn't happen. And the police department was putting pressure on them, members of media, all this kind of stuff, trying to prevent this debate from taking place, framing Lawrence, Tommy Robinson, the other participants on their side. there were three on each side as a bunch of fascists and so forth.

So I came home and, you know, the debate was off. And then the next thing you know, the debate was back on again. And so I took place in early June, early mid-June and went very well. But the Oxford Union, which is an old prestigious debating society at Oxford University. Been around since the 1820s. Christopher Hitchens was a member of it. along with, you know, many, many prime ministers, parliamentarians, this kind of thing. But it's run by students and they don't want to release the video.

So only after some threats, it's my understanding, did they finally release some of the video? Not all of it, but some of it. And that video has now gone, you know, viral. But it's now, you know, almost two months after, well, excuse me, about six weeks after the date actually occurs. heard. How extraordinary. I mean, I'm actually, this is the first time hearing this, because I was thinking how horrible that I missed it, because I was in Oxford, you know, just the other day. In any event, I debated at the Oxford Union. It's got to be 20 years ago, I think. George Bush was president. So it's about 20 years ago. Hard to believe that it's

suddenly 20 years ago. But let's talk about our friend, Lawrence Fox, and this debate. I'm very glad to know that you were involved in helping him prep for it. What do you think, I mean, for people who haven't seen it, what's the most basic takeaway? I mean, I'm glad it happened. Well, I think what the most basic takeaway, which is the one that's really kind of going viral, and I shouldn't say kind of, it is. It has many millions of views. It was the homepage of Reddit a few days ago, which is something. It's been the, was the number one trending topic on Twitter and is still a trending topic, you know, days later, days after it was released. But I think it's this, that the the thesis being debated, was this, the West should be suspicious of Islam. And so you have those who are, you know, who agree with that and those who are opposed to that. So Lawrence and Tommy Robinson, obviously were on the side saying, yes, indeed, the West should be suspicious of Islam. And then there are Muslims on the other side, Oxford students debating otherwise. And I think it's,

I think it's so fascinating how both the left and, you know, and jihadists always kind of play into your hands as it relates to things like this. So here they are essentially claiming, because really what you're getting at with a thesis like that is that Islam is compatible with Western values, that Islam is a tolerant religion, a religion of free speech. It's a, it's a religion of coexisting in a pluralistic society. And yet, the pressure not to have the debate was huge. And you had a mob outside trying to prevent people from getting in to even hear the debate, a very threatening kind of mob. And then you have, I discussed this on our episode of ideas have consequences.

It was just released this morning where I'm breaking down the debate. You know, just, you know, I'm John Madden, you know, going through and explaining. to you. I went, boom, here, and then boom, there. And I'm explaining everything this happening in the debate and giving you the background. You have this, the very first speaker was an Oxford student, a Muslim. And she gets up, and it's a veiled threat. She's basically saying there's a mob outside, Tommy Robinson, you and your hooligans, as she calls them, and they're baying for you. And if it weren't for us, such talk. tolerant Muslims, you would literally be cooked. Now, maybe they don't teach what literally means

anymore at Oxford University. She apparently now, I'm told, is sort of backpedaling and saying this isn't what she meant. I mean, she did say literally. And as a writer, I take that word seriously. It always, it always buds me. You and I, you and I are the only ones left, Larry. You are the ones. My head literally explodes whenever I hear people misuse the word literally. Hey, hey, Eric, right now you're literally on fire. You're literally on fire. Just keep going, my friend. It's exactly.

No, it's, no, my, nothing bothers me more than verbal tics. The idea that somebody just, you, a word just, it happened about two years ago that the word literally suddenly became the word that everybody used all the time. So every single day, you hear the word used. over and over and over. It's a word that people use simply to underscore things, to literally underscore them, not to literally underscore them, but to underscore things to emphasize things.

Yes, and it's very fatiguing. It's very fatiguing. And it doesn't, it no longer means what it really means. I mean, if you're, if you're, you know, a commentator watching a game says, you know, he is, he is in the zone. He is literally on fire. Well, if he is literally on fire, he would have flames, you know, you know, going around him. So anyway, she says you would literally be cooked.

So she's implying cannibalism that, you know, her fellow Muslims outside. I mean, they'll cook you. I mean, it's what they do. Literally, they would do this. But having said all that, it was an interesting way to begin a debate. And, Eric, this is fascinating. I plugged in to, let me see if I can find it here. I plugged in to Grock.

I took a picture of this one, just a screenshot of this one. just a screenshot of this woman, her very smug look, as she's saying this. And I asked Grock, what do you make of this look? Now, I didn't even tell Grock that it, and those who don't know, GROC is artificial intelligence, this kind of search engine. But I asked Grock, what do you make of this look? So I didn't even tell Grock that it was from a debate. And here is what Grock said, which I think is fascinating.

It's a controlled half smile paired with a sideways glance after suggesting that the crowd outside would kill the other speakers, if not for the security arrangements, is it neutral? In isolation, it might just look like confidence or mild amusement. But coming after that particular line, it takes on a colder, more self-satisfied quality, the kind of expression that lands somewhere between, I know something you don't, or remember who holds the power here. Okay. I just want to be clear that a close second to my hate. of misusing or overusing the word literally is asking AI anything about anything. So, but I'll forgive you because you do so much good.

The fact is that what that woman was wearing, she would be stoned or hanged in most Muslim countries. So the whole thing becomes preposterous. But I thought it was genius. And listen, our friend Lawrence is a very clever, sharp. figure. He's very clever. And the thing with threatening to have in this envelope that everybody assumes, he's going to, he's going to dare to show the cartoon of Muhammad. Oh, my goodness. Was that in the Charlie Hebdo carton? I'm trying to think. Yeah, he once even put on the folder,

CH. So they are all very prominently. So they're expecting, they're expecting this. But, but here's the thing. When Lawrence came in May, I was talking with Lori about how am I going to go about prepping him? How do I want to prep him? And initially, I had these stacks of books, you know, you need to read this on Islam and this on Islam and that on Islam. And then I decided, no, that's not going to work. He's not going to read them anyway. Instead, what a lot of people don't understand, and having participated in and organized, and moderated so many high-level academic debates at Oxford University as well as a number of other places. It is something actually that Christopher Hitchens taught. And he didn't say it. It's just something

I observed in him. Christopher understood that a debate is a performance. So we could take, we can take in some debates that say Christopher participated in where the audience had the impression that he won. But if you stripped all that away, you know, personality and jokes and stage presence and just looked at the transcript, you go, well, he got annihilated, you know, in this debate when you just read it. But Christopher understood that it is a debate. So, you know, excuse me, it's a performance. So I told Lawrence, that's a Lawrence, you're a rotta trained actor, Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts, where, you know, Lawrence Olivier and Peter O'Toole and Oliver Reed and all these kind of guys went, you're one of them. You are a born actor. You're a born performer.

I want to see on that stage, because Lori and I had watched it, the series Victoria, where he plays Lord Palmerston, Foreign Secretary, and then later Prime Minister. And there's a scene in that series where Lord Palmerston, aka Lawrence Fox, is standing before Parliament where they're all, you know, jeering and so on. And he just kind of casually dismisses them like they're all children. continues to deliver his lines. And I said, Lawrence, I want, I want Lord Palmerston in this debate. That's what I want. I want you to, this is a performance, you prepare your remarks, ignore the efforts to get you off track. And he did it beautifully. He did it, he did it, he did

it wonderful. I was so proud of him. And, um, and then at the end, um, it takes an actor to deliver the coup de grace the way he did with the cartoon with comedic timing you know listen we've got to set this up because not everybody knows and I hate this when I'm watching a program and they don't explain they sort of assume everybody's you know in in their own Twitter feed I want to explain so he's talking about the threat of Islam and he waves beautifully he waves this envelope and he waves this envelope and implies very clearly, I don't remember what he says, but it's pretty clear that what's in that envelope is the cartoon that Charlie Hebdo published, this is, I don't know, 10 years ago, whatever it was, of Muhammad that caused riots.

What's that? 2015. Okay. That 11 years ago that caused all the riots and killing and horrible, horrible things. So what's interesting is suddenly by implying that he's going to show that cartoon of Muhammad, the entire room tenses up. And most of the people who pretend that Islam is a religion of peace are suddenly betraying the fact that they know that it's not. And that if you show this piece of paper, violence might ensue who knows what might must,

might happen. You know, Oxford might be burned to the ground. For God's sake, don't show the cartoon. I mean, that's the genius of, you know what he did show. Well, but I'm saying so that's, that's the setup, right? You know, you know why they laughed? Do you know what the image was up? Yes. Yes. It's a picture. One of the guys who's debating on the other side, he's not Muslim, but he's a member parliament and what Lawrence had in there so a lot of Americans wouldn't know this because they wouldn't know who that guy is and clips of

him are not what are going around so you might not know it if you haven't seen the whole thing or had some preparation but what he has in the envelope is a cartoon image of him that is you know the front of a magazine I think maybe Spectator

magazine the British version and so when he whips that out everyone there knows sees it and realizes that's that guy sitting straight over there. And of course, the audience just erupts with laughter. But Lawrence did a great job of dragging it out. Yes. And with with comedic timing. And then of course, you have, you know, the Muslims on the other side saying, you know, basically you can't do this, you can't do this, which is added, you know, to the drama of the moment. There's a moment where somebody, I don't know who, you know, they're asserting,

Parliamentary order. What's that? Parliamentary order. Yes, somebody stands up and says, you know, the Oxford Union, our debate here is styled along the lines of parliament. And in parliament, they don't allow props. And so can we have a ruling to disallow whatever prop it is that, you know, Lawrence Fox is about to flourish? And, I mean, they really thought, what can we do to stop him from pulling out this cartoon of Mahi? What can we do because we're scared?

Genius. Absolute genius. Yep, I agree with that. Went very, very well. And I'm so glad. I'm so happy for Lawrence. This is a shining moment for him. This is all, you know, going viral.

And it really is waking people up even more so to the threat of Islam, particularly the comments of this young woman saying you would literally, literally because. were it not for us because we're, we're such gracious people. And, you know, you know, something that I've, I've felt incredibly important as a, again, as somebody who's organized a number of these debates, is take, for example, when we brought Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens, by the way, Christopher Hitchens multiple times, but Richard Dawkins once, quite famously, to Birmingham, Alabama, I stress to one and all, he is a, expecting to be met at the, you know, because he's never been in the South, and he's, he's made all kinds of demeaning remarks about the South. He's expecting to be met at the

airport by, by evangelicals and pickup trucks with, with, um, torches and bitch forks. And we are going to kill him with kindness. He will be met by a limousine. We will put him in the presidential suite. Um, we will, um, we will show lavish him. with kindness. And that's exactly what happened. And that wasn't just, you know, I was an insincere on our part. What we're trying to convey is, is one thing to disagree with you as quite another to be abusive towards you. And I feel like it's incredibly important that a host in these situations sees to the protection and the right to say what they want to say in these things. Because your own integrity, you know, really depends on that.

And so for her to be sitting there kind of glorying in this mob that's out on, out on the streets, and kind of implying, we control the mob, that to me is so revelatory as to what Islam really is. And she, with the opening statements of the debate, she proved the other side's point that you should be suspended. of Islam. And by the way, it wasn't even mentioned in the debate to my knowledge. Now, no Lawrence didn't mention it. Maybe somebody else did. The Rupert Lowe report, 250,000 minimum, adolescent, key word, British white girls raped by Muslim rape gangs. You know, if you're not suspicious of Islam after that, after, you know, after car bombings, after Charlie Hebdo, after the Batheklan, after the USS Cole, after 9-11, then you're an idiot. You're clown-level idiots.

So for me, the thesis being debated was worded far too mildly. Suspicious. Suspicious. It's like saying, you know, should we be suspicious of Nazis? Well, I think after World War II and the Holocaust, I think the answer is an emphatic yes. And so here it is the same with Islam. I mean, yeah, it could have been, you know, should the West be opposed to Islam more than merely suspicious. But let me ask you, because you mentioned Rupert Lowe, I'm never really clear on British politics.

Are you able to tell us a little bit about what's the difference between the Reform Party and the – I don't really understand. Nigel Farage is the head of what? Well, to answer your question and with the broad stroke, I – would not be the guy to explain that. Lawrence, Lawrence would do a better job of that because he's more in the, he's more in the weeds of that. And I could offer some, um, some explanation, but it won't be as, it won't be as clear is what he's going to say on that being, you know, himself British and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I'll try to, I'll try to get him on, uh, because I think that, you know, folks like you and me, we're, we're rooting, uh,

for liberty all around the world and certainly in England. And I don't know what the chances are that they could turn the tide over there in the way that we are fighting to turn the tide over here. But I don't get the impression that Nigel Farage is quite up to it. I don't know if Tommy Robinson has a political future. I don't know anything. I just know that I'm rooting for them. And I hope that something can happen.

I do get the sense that people are waking up over there. Let's put it that way. The question is, is it too late? And I think it is apart from, you know, so I'm not giving up on this, but apart from a third great awakening, I think the UK, I think Europe is lost. The United States is in a far different category because we don't have mere the same number of Muslims over here. but still we have to wake up to the evil of this. And by the way, if I had been establishing the proposition being debated,

it wouldn't be should the West be suspicious of Islam, it would have been should we put every single Muslim in a deportation cannon and fire them back off to their countries of origin? That would be a far better thesis to debate. But hey. Well, no, that's, I mean, that's where I was going with it when I said, should the West be opposed to Islam? Because just suspicious, my gosh, I mean, you've already said that.

But when we look at the headlines coming out of Iran and Israel right now, the fog of war is real. It's hard to know whom to trust. That same feeling of confusion often hits home when you're trying to navigate Medicare. There are so many bad actors in this space looking to capitalize on confusion rather than provide clarity. That's exactly why I am proud to partner with chapter. Chapter acts as a trusted advocate, helping you cut through the noise to understand your Medicare options. Unlike most agents who only show you a few plans, Chapter looks at every plan nationwide. They're completely unbiased and focus on what's best for you, not the insurance companies.

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That's right. Democratic Socialists of America that met over the weekend, this past weekend, in Chicago, they claim to be, and probably are, the largest socialist or political organization in American history with, they claim about 120,000 members. There were, I don't know, maybe 300 people in attendance at this. And let me just give you, let me just tease some of the things that they want. They want a 32-hour work week. They want paid family leave for all, universal health care, abolish student debt, establish universal rent control, abolish private property, state ownership of the means of production, enact reparation for slavery, take steps to abolish police

and prison system, and act a Green New Deal, defund the Department of War, and end military and economic aid for Israel. Do they say anything specifically about who's to care, who's to care, for Lenin's waxy corpse is that mentioned did they mention or they just leave that out they just assume

somebody will will dust it and take care of it have you ever actually been there and seen it? No. I've seen it

several times and I love what the late Pidro Rourke said he says his his decomposed body lies there lies there like a bad salad

under a sneeze guard oh my gosh these are the things that they're in favor of And did you notice the outlier at the end? Almost all these things are not all of them, but most of them are about, you know, a socialist economic model, which, of course, is a disaster economic model. And all these things require loads of money. But then you have at the end and military and economic aid to Israel.

I mean, that feels so strange. That feels like, well, what in the world does that have to do with everything else? Well, that's a clue to you that it has been my mind. contention all along, and you'll know this, Eric, you've heard me say it, but I want to hear more people begin to say this because I've been warning this for some time. Mandani isn't a socialist. Ilhan Omar is not a socialist or communist. Zakiad Khan, mayor of London, not. These, forever, Arabs, Muslims, they didn't know how to crack the code on the West. They never had their equivalent of a Bentham and Netanyahu, a very articulate, a spokesperson for Israel who understood

American is kind of part American himself. They never had that, and they didn't really even know how to spend their money. But now they do. They know they can buy universities. They know they can buy newsrooms, and they know that they can by influence, not by pushing Islam per se, but by penetrating the West via the Trojan horse of socialism. And it's because they see the same polls that you and I see, which say that socialism, even communism, polls well among Gen Ziers and millennials. So you have all of these Muslims who are now taking political positions

and everything from sheriff's departments and local government straight on up to Congress, and they're doing it by masquerading as socialist. But for them, it's all about the acquisition of power. Now, as the Democratic Socialist Party of America, are they all, you know, Muslims? No, they aren't. And CNN reported, gave a very good actual report on this gathering, said that attendees there, over the age of 30, there were almost none of them. And it's because it's all these young, you know, blue hair types, as I call them,

in addition to the Muslims, but leftists who are always the shock troops of every revolution, of the French Revolution, of the Bolshevik Revolution, who are true believers. They really believe that they're going to create a better world. And it's because they're uneducated. They've not really been anywhere. They didn't get what you and I got where we. We were warned of and saw the dangers of socialism, where we know that leftist regimes killed roughly 150 million people in the 20th century alone, which is more than all religious wars from all previous centuries combined. So this is who we're talking about here.

But see, these are young people who believe this, and Muslims are using them. That's very interesting. I think I that's the first I've I've heard that I've always wondered about the the red green axis

and what's really going on it's I mean it makes sense it makes sense but Mondami I don't I guess I don't know what I he seems to me I don't know I I'm not going to argue with you

he's a member of the BSA Mondania is a member of this. What I'm trying to say is to make it a little clearer. It's not that they don't believe in any of the socialist elements of the platform, but they are first and foremost, they are Muslims. They are jihadists. And that's what they're about. And they recognize that socialism is their shoehorn to power.

That is their means to power. I mean, if you listen to the subtexts, of what someone like Ilham Omar will say, she will on occasion let it slip. She's there to represent the interests of Somalia. That's what he's there for. She is there to push Islam. She is there to promote Islam.

But she masquerades as being someone who is, you know, for the people, the equality of all people. Those are not principles with Islam. That it's all about the equal distribution of wealth and stuff like that. That's not part. of Islam, but it is part of what they believe. And so this group met, they did not allow any real reporting or access to any of the members. They shielded the media from this and kept pretty tight controls as to who could and couldn't get out. But again, you're talking about,

you're talking about a program here, a platform that's utterly unworkable. I mean, let's just take, for instance, a 32-hour work week. The French went to the 30-hour work week. The French went to the 35-hour work week. And having lived in France, I can tell you it has demolished their economy. And it's why they now keep pushing, they've done it at least twice now, they have keep pushing out the retirement age. So it went from, I think, 62 to 65 to 67. And it keeps climbing because they need more and more people that they can tax to pay for all the freebies. You know, so So, Hayek would say, well, of course this doesn't work because this is a Ponzi scheme on a national scale is what this is. And it's why not a few, not some socialist states have cratered their economies.

They all do. And what you will hear the Bernie Sanders of the world say is, well, our model is Scandinavia. Scandinavian countries are not socialist. When we're talking about, say, a country like Norway, for instance, or Denmark, we're talking about oil-rich countries that have very generous welfare networks, which is very different, and they have very small populations. And they're quick to tell you, we're free market economies. We're not classic socialist models. But whenever we see it again, they're, they use the word democratic. That word is a misnomer here.

This is an oxymoron that we're talking about here because no social estate is ever democratic in any meaningful sense. And I'm mindful of what was an Eric Conacher who was. It was gone out of my head, the president, the dictator of East Germany, Walter Oldbrick. Olbrick said this, privately. He said, we must seize power, but it must appear to be Democratic. And you see, that's what socialists are all about. And so people need to beware that what's happening right now is that the socialists are sock-puppeting the Democratic Party. And the polls show that one in three Democrats self-identify as socialist.

And they're all, they're younger. So the older generation of Democrats are either now bowing to them or are panicking because they're coming on strong. Right. This is absolutely fascinating. We'll have to leave it there. Larry Taunton, my friend, thank you very much. Thanks for coming on.

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that in fact, somehow, I don't know how we managed to get. Lawrence Fox to come on to give his view of what it was that happened in Oxford some weeks ago. Lawrence Fox, welcome back. How are you, Eric? Nice to see you. I'm fine. I feel naked without a cigar. I don't know.

I saw you smoking a cigar there. Larry Taunton informed us that what, in fact, everybody thought happened a couple of days ago, happened some weeks ago. In fact, before you and I had dinner for my birthday at Simpsons in the Strand over a month ago. But I just wanted to get your views because the video of this was not released until a couple of days ago. Yeah, they didn't want to release it at all, actually. They released it to the Middle East and I, that very Western pro-West supporting fundamentalist Islamic institution. so they released an edited version or they edited it themselves and then we put pressure on them and we said listen guys you've got to put out the whole debate

that's the that's how you do debating right and so they finally they did release the footage and then we all put it out individually and yeah I think it was it was good it's been it's been a positive contribution to the debate over whether Islam and the West are you know whether Islam we should be suspicious I mean I think I go a bit further in my speech as to whether we should be suspicious or not. I mean, I find it even the term suspicious is so tepid. I mean, suspicious, of course we should be suspicious.

Should we be positively hostile to it, I think would be. But I know you can only, at the Oxford Union, you can only get away with so much. But simply to have had the discussion is a monumental step forward, I think, Lawrence. I have to say thank you to you for your willingness to do it. and thank you to Tommy Robinson. I want to ask you, I wanted to ask Larry Taunton, but he deferred to you. He said, you could help me understand better. Where do you think stand politically?

What is the Reform Party? What is the, you know, where are things? What do you see as the hope for the future? My impression is that perhaps Nigel Farage is a little bit timid and that it's Rupert low, who we can get by. What do you think? Where are we? What will give us the lay of the land, I guess, is what I'm trying to say in England, because most Americans, like me, really have very little idea of what's going on over there.

So Farage is a Kennedy Democrat, I would say. So, you know, he's not right wing at all, which is a problem for me. He's not a conservative, I don't think. We have a major problem in the UK, whereas, you know, we have a classist. that you guys in America dealt with so much better by just going, hey, buddy, I got more money than you, which is a great way of dealing with the class system. But in England, it's entrenched, right?

So Farage is trying to appeal to patriotic Kennedy Democrat voters. You know, that's sort of people that were still patriotic, left-leaning. There is a major problem in that, because we are fighting. I was speaking to my boss this morning, and he was like, what is it that we're fighting? and I sent him Psalm 139 and I said that's what we're fighting you know

it's good and evil it's not political but Farage is Farage is actually quite left-leaning if you look at what he says he just wanted all the problems to go away in my view I could be wrong Rupert Lowe I think is very

right leaning which is good but whatever happens you've got these two people if they don't talk and they don't find somewhere convening the right in British politics, we are going to be stuck with, you know, what Victor Davis-Henson calls these kind of Jacobin revolutionary terrorist leftists, which, you know, we've seen what they've done to our country and what they're trying to do to yours. So what we ultimately

need is a convening on the right, which is why I'm standing in this election. I'm about to stand in the election. I just started appearing on their polls, thanks to my Oxford Union speech, which is just to say, listen, I'm a Christian. I don't, I don't want to have a election. I don't want attack you individually as Muslims. I do want to attack Islam because I have a big problem with it, but you as a Muslim, I love you. And we need to get back into that worldview as people who believe in the West, which is we attack ideas, not people. Whether life serves you an ace or an unexpected backhand, the high-protein yogurt, Oikos Pro, is there to feed your strength and help you turn every challenge into a smash. Oikos Pro helps build strong muscles and support muscle recovery with

high protein and contains no added sugar because true strength isn't about being able to take the hits. It's about being able to bounce back. Oikos Pro. Feed your strength. Visit oikos.coma for more details. Well, that's very important. So thank you for saying that because in fact, that's the question. And in America as well, there's a lot of people don't understand this. I mean, I'm against Islam. I'm not against Muslims. Uh, my, Muslims have a right to exist in America. Atheists have a right to exist. I disagree with atheism.

Liberals have a right to exist. I disagree with liberalism. But if you believe in the God of the Bible, you believe in liberty. You believe in the idea that people can disagree with each other. It doesn't mean all ideas are equal. But we have to have a way of discussing and debating because we believe in the truth. And we can reason our way to the truth. some of the things that you said, I mean, we were talking about, you know, the theatrics of pretending

to have the Charlie Hebdo cartoon of Muhammad and filling the room with fear that you're going to do this awful thing and show a cartoon. I mean, that says everything, that showing a cartoon would fill people with fear and they would, you know, have parliamentary objections to this. That tells you what people really feel about is. that they're not merely, it's not merely something of which we should be suspicious. It's something that is fundamentally hostile to liberty, to freedom of every kind. It's, I mean, you've got to take it off to Islam.

You take your hat off to Islam. They do gaslighting better than anybody else in the world. It's like, with a religion of peace, with a religion of beast, show the cartoon and we're going to kill you. You know, it's sort of, it's crazy. And Britain has this long history of incredible politeness. Oh, yes, sorry. We've done everything wrong, colonialism and all. We're very, very sorry.

But with Islam, you can't apologize enough. You know, we live in a country which is basically in Islamic country anyway, because if you can't show the cartoon, you're already a Muslim, which is sort of the point I was trying to make, which is, if I can't share it, I've already submitted, and Islam is, I mean, I think the literal derivation of Islam is submission. So if you submit to the rules of any religion or none, you are living in submission to them.

that ideology, and I will not do it. And I am fed up to the back teeth of being told that I will. But I did want to, because I've thought about it for a long time with the help of Larry, and I think you and I talked about it as well, I didn't, I wanted to be gracious. I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be horrible. So I just said that here's the fundamental problem we had with free speech, you're going to kill me if I show you this cartoon. So then I spoke to my wife, and she said, you don't need to show the actual cartoon, because people will be so worried that you're going to show any cartoon, that the whole room will explode, which it did.

And in the end, I thought, you know, I've saved myself a fat around, I've made my point, or actually they made my point for me. By standing up and a jet team being very upset and talking about how much they believe in free speech, but they don't believe in free cartoons, that was what happened, really. Well, it was spectacular theatrics.

I mean, the idea that you were able to have your cake and eat it too and save yourself a fatwa, as you just put it. What a concept, Lawrence, what a concept that there would be a fatwa on your head for showing a piece of paper. Doesn't that say it all? That says it all about what Islam really is. Well, you know, I've always believed in living Christ. So I believe that, you know, you can burn as many Bibles as you want, as tasteful as it is. Christ lives beyond the pages of a book, whereas it shows that in Islam, those pages of a book

are more important or as important as their Sky Wizard. So on its own way, what they're doing is their attacking debate, free thinking, free speech, free thought, free worship, all of that by saying, this piece of paper, even though it was printed, you know, could have been printed in China for all I know, or probably not, let's face it, but it could have been printed anywhere. That is the most important thing, not the living, breathing Allah. the piece of paper that you that I you know people are not allowed even to mock you know I get that Christianity has the same thing

about worshipping false idols and I do understand it but Christianity is it has a lot more leeway and it's a lot less insecure than the ideology of Islam and I I've met a lot of Muslims since I did the talk and a lot of Muslims come up to me and they've said you know we totally support your right

to be able to show that cartoon and I'm a Muslim and then I respond with the Larry Taunton line which is you support my right to show the cartoon and I'm like yeah and I went were you wearing the f***er Muslim sorry for the bleeping

the Taunton line Well we fortunately we're out of time because we have no more time for cursing on this program I want to talk to you more but we're out of time for today so I will say simply for now Larry and Lawrence

Thank you. David.