The Eric Metaxas Show - #185 - Richard Lim

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, historian Richard M. Lim joins Eric to discuss his new book Refusing a Crown: How George Washington Changed the World. They explore Washington’s extraordinary decision to give up power, the crisis of civilian control after the Revolution, the Newburgh conspiracy, the role of virtue in the American republic, and Washington’s deeply rooted belief in Providence, Scripture, and the importance of Christian faith to the nation’s future.⭐ ORDER NOW:Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World📕: https://a.co/d/0ir3NlapTODAY'S SPONSORS:🪙 Grace Precious Metals: https://www.metaxasmetals.com/🛏️ MyPillow — Save BIG with code ERIC: https://www.mypillow.com/☀️ Honest, fast, and free Medicare plan guidance: https://askchapter.com/metaxas/0:00 Richard Lim Joins3:19 Richard Lim’s Background7:53 Why Write Refusing A Crown?10:37 Why Washington Amazes People Around The World12:40 The Fear Of Giving Washington Too Much Power14:21 Civilian Control Of The Military17:26 Washington’s Faith And “The Searcher Of Hearts”21:43 Was George Washington Really A Deist?24:36 Why Washington Called The Revolution A Miracle30:46 Washington’s 1783 Prayer For America35:57 The Crisis After Yorktown40:40 The Newburgh Conspiracy And The Crown- - -LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ericmetaxas#EricMetaxas #TheEricMetaxasShow #News #PoliticsChapter and its affiliates are not connected with or endorsed by any government entity or the federal Medicare program. Chapter Advisory, LLC represents Medicare Advantage HMO, PPO, and PFFS organizations and stand alone prescription drug plans that have a Medicare contract. Enrollment depends on the plan’s contract renewal. While we have a database of every Medicare plan nationwide and can help you to search among all plans, we have contracts with many but not all plans. As a result, we do not offer every plan available in your area. Currently we represent 50 organizations which offer 18,160 products nationwide. We search and recommend all plans, even those we don’t directly offer. You can contact a licensed Chapter agent to find out the number of products available in your specific area. Please contact Medicare.gov, 1-800-Medicare, or your local State Health Insurance Program (SHIP) to get information on all of your options.

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In case you didn't know it, I wrote a book on the American Revolution. I know I don't like to talk much about that, but today I'm forced to talk about that because I have, as my guest, someone who knows a lot about the American Revolution and, in fact, who has written a book about a minor figure in the American Revolution named George, I believe is pronounced Washington. Let's get it now. Yes. The title of the book is

Refusing a Crown. How George Washington changed the world, the legend and the truth about Washington's greatest decision. The author of that book is Richard M. Lim, L-I-M-L-I-M-L-M-L-M. Richard Lim, welcome to the program.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on. From one fellow history nerd to another, it's great to be on. Well, I got to tell you, you're obviously i can't say enough about george washington i mean it's off the charts i i mean sometimes history you know throws up a figure that is you can't believe they exist and when i say history i mean god creates a figure it's just it's an amazing story you can see right behind me i have a

portrait of george washington you before we went on the air identified it probably uh as the loits of portrait. Now Loitsa is the man who in the, in 1851, painted the famous, famous painting of Washington crossing the Delaware, which is about an eighth of a mile from where I'm sitting, something like that, or a quarter of a mile in the Metropolitan Museum over on Fifth Avenue, one of the greatest paintings in the history of the world, this monumental painting, which we even used in the end papers for my book. I'm jealous. I'm jealous.

You're so close to that painting, and it's humongous. I mean, it really shows you that back then, seeing a painting like that was like going to a movie. I mean, obviously, there weren't movies at the time, but, you know, people paid money. They went and saw the painting. They experienced it. They meditated on it.

It's really a remarkable thing to see. I write about it, about the painting, to some significant length in my book on The Revolution just because it is such a big deal. The painting itself, as you've just said, it's more than just a painting. I mean, it really is.

But I hadn't thought of what you just said about that it was like, you know, in the 1850s, it was like going to a movie. I mean, it was so big that it was overwhelming and it has a level of detail and symbolism which we can talk about another time.

We're not here to talk about that painting. But I just wanted my audience to know, you know, what a scholar you are with regard to the revolution. And you've written this book called Refusing a Crown. Now, I should also tell my audience, there's more to you. You're not just the author of this book. You're the co-founder and host of the American president podcast.

Yeah, this American president. What's that? This American president. This American president. podcast and you're the resident historian at Prager University. Ladies and gentlemen, do you understand the resident historian at Prager University? It's kind of a big deal. You've served at the White House, the Association of the United States Army, and you've served at George Washington's Mount Vernon estate. You've appeared in many, many documentaries and you are an historian, but I want to get

your background. Before we leap into the book titled Refusing a Crown about George Washington, What is your background, Richard? Did you grow up in California with the other communists? I did grow up in California. And the amazing thing is, and I say this to my younger colleagues, they are shocked when I tell them that I'm old enough to remember a Republican mayor of Los Angeles, Richard Reardon, and a pretty conservative governor of California, Pete Wilson.

To them, it's like, you know, talking about, Genesis. I mean, it was so long ago, like before the flood. And it's one of those things. I shook. I shook Nimrod's hand. Yes, exactly. Yes. I remember those guys. Yeah. And my family came here in the 1980s and we lived in Louisiana for a bit and then we moved to California. I spent the bulk of my childhood in California. And it's amazing to think that at the time, I didn't think about this, but we could afford a home. We're a group of Filipinos who immigrated to the United States and immediately started doing well in the 80s, you know, in Reagan's 80s America, which really- That's only because of white privilege. Of course, of course, absolutely.

You know, you Filipinos trying to pass as non-white. It's just nothing but white privilege. Of course. That's how you succeeded, okay, on the backs of enslaved people. Of course. Be clear with my audience. All right. So look, your story, how do you become resident historian at Prager University? What is your background? I mean, what is your- is your, well, I lived in the Washington, D.C. area for many years. And while you, when you live in Washington, D.C., they call it the revolving door. So as you mentioned, I worked at the White House. I worked at Mount Vernon for a bit. I worked in a whole bunch of different places. You just go from, you know, you work in the government. You work as a contractor. You work as a consultant. You work for

a think tank. And during that whole time, I realized that I needed to be doing something that aligned with my interest and my skill set. And I realized I needed to do research. I needed to do writing. That's what I always loved. Maybe in a different time, I would have been a professor. But nowadays, you go and become a professor. You have to study some woke stuff. I have to apply queer theory to the president, the presidency, you know, all that kind of stuff. I didn't want to do any of that. So instead, I decided to start a podcast. I have a very good friend, my producer, Michael, who is kind of the jack of all trades, and he handles all the technical stuff. I'm not great at the technical stuff, but I love history. And so I started doing content. It literally started with me,

Michael, a borrowed microphone and some rented out space at a library. And eventually it grew. My podcast grew, and I was able to have amazing guests on the podcast. I was able to have the Secret Service agent Clint Hill, who was running up to JFK when he was a assassinated. He was an incredible person interview. I've had an Apollo 13 astronaut on. It's really amazing. You start a podcast and you see it grow. I was that kid when I was young that always had some interesting history fact to tell my friends. And within a few years, I had a podcast, and I believe that helped me get the job at Prager You. I'm just a big history nerd. And our executive director, Alan Estrin, is also a history nerd. We've had you on to talk about

history, many great videos we've done with you, and eventually it turned into this, and I decided to write a book. I think everyone at some point, it's like how a pilot is always a, starts out as a young kid who loves making paper airplanes. Every historian is somebody that just loves learning about history. My mom would take me to the library when I was a kid, and here I am years later talking about history and writing a book. Well, I, you know, one of the reasons I'm excited to talk with you about your book refusing a crown, how George Washington changed the world, is because I keep saying

that I want my book revolution to be the gateway drug that somebody reads my book, a lot of people have been reading my book, and then they say, I want more, I want to keep going, I want to learn more.

And your book tells the story. I mean, I tell this story very briefly in my book, but you give the whole story, and it is one of these stories from history that it's, difficult to believe that it really happened. It sounds like mythic, but it really did happen. So let's let's talk about it. And I wrote, in fact, it is because of this story that I even wrote

my book on the American Revolution. I wrote a chapter, the first chapter of my book, Seven Men, is about Washington. And it's basically about what you say in this book that, that this hero twice gives up power. I mean, in a way that just, it's unprecedented. It's almost unbelievable, frankly. And because I wrote that chapter, a friend of mine said, you need to tell the whole story of the American Revolution. So in a funny way, what you write about in your book is seminal in understanding the United States of America because there has never been anything quite like it.

And I would argue that God created this man and steered him in a way to set this precedent for how we are to govern ourselves. So my question to you is what led you to say, I'm going to write a book on this subject of all the things you could have written about? Well, the story really starts 19 years ago when I was on a trip of all places to China. It was a family trip. My stepdad is Chinese. And so we went and visited the Hong Kong area, Hainan, and we were talking with a lot of relatives, relatives that we had never met before. There was one cousin in time.

particular, who he didn't speak any English and I don't speak any Chinese. He speaks Cantonese, so I didn't speak any Cantonese. And we started talking about politics. And at the time, it was during the height of the Iraq war, during the Bush administration. And he spent most of the conversation basically just bashing American policy. And I just sat there listening to him. I wanted to hear his perspective. I didn't want to get into a debate with a guy that I just met, especially a relative. but the conversation. But he didn't care about getting in a debate with you. I always find that funny because I'm like you.

I'm like, I don't want to argue with people, but some people, they're very happy to argue with us. Sure, go ahead. Sure, absolutely. The conversation turned to history. And out of nowhere, he said, the American I admire the most is George Washington. And that really struck me because here's a guy

who lives 200 years after George Washington. in a completely different culture. And there was something about Washington that really amazed this person. And I thought about that. And I thought, what was it about George Washington that really amazed him? And it's the fact that for a man who lives under a communist dictatorship, one of the absolute worst in human history, he saw something in Washington that blew his mind. And it was the fact that he gave up power.

And I think the fact that George Washington is so familiar to all of us, he's literally everywhere. He's on the dollar bill. He's on a quarter, you know, our quarters. He's on a mountain that we carved his face on. We almost forget the power that George Washington has around the world. People talk about the concept of soft power. Well, what does it look like to someone on the other side of the world who lives under a dictatorship to learn that somebody who could have had absolute power, who could have had, who had the most power in the country and could have had just, you know, anyone doing what he wanted, completely giving that up to become a citizen. That is mind-blowing. And I think as Americans, we don't understand the power of that.

It's so familiar to us. Even people who say, oh, yeah, Washington gave a power. That was great. They don't understand just how much that goes against the grain of human nature itself and how that strikes people. And I wanted to tell that story because most biographies, they say, yeah, Washington gave up power, moving on. Well, there's so much there. There's so much that led to that. And I think it, for so many people around the world, it has a power that we really need to rediscover and embrace because it is, it is something that can really change how people see this country. Well, and most of this, again, I, I'm happy to confess my ignorance. Before I wrote my book, Revolution, I didn't know half the story. I mean, I didn't know, for example, that

the Continental Congress was deeply concerned with giving power, any power to Washington. They were deeply concerned with this idea of having a standing army. It really worried them because in the past, you know, a little bit over 100 years before, Cromwell had a lot of had seized power in England, and they thought that's what people do. People who have power seize the power, take the power. And so it was amazing to me to think that Washington was the one man, it seems, who had the outrageous strength of character to do the right thing.

I can't think of anybody else who would have done the right thing. And there are plenty of examples of people like Horatio Gates and Charles Lee who, clearly were nothing like Washington. I mean, in fact, that's an understatement. They were his opposites. They were looking for their own glory, trying to undermine him, didn't care about the cause. And they get their humiliating comeuppance, which is amazing. Washington really is a figure in history that he seems made up.

I mean, he seems so mythical that you think, well, it's got to be like Parsons-Weems' hagiography. It can't really be true. But as you say in your book, as I know, it really is true. Absolutely. And I devote a bit of my book to talk about the importance of civilian control of the military because that really is the key of what it means to create a free society. Every society has to deal with this issue. The idea that you need a military to protect the country.

But how do you empower that military without making it so powerful that it can overthrow the will of the people. And that was the key challenge. And the founders of this country, specifically the Continental Congress, when they chose a commander, they believed that the man who could do that the best. And they had to gamble on him because you don't know until you see the result. That person, they believe, was George Washington because they saw him every day in the Continental Congress. They saw the dignity, the reserve. They saw somebody who was truly great. And historians have a certain cynicism about the founding of this country, even with Washington, even the historians that praise Washington, they like to take little shots at him.

They like to say, well, you know, he talks so much about virtue, but he was actually really posturing to become the commander of the Continental Army because he wore his uniform. You know, they try to say all this stuff. I think they miss the point about Washington because when Washington talks about his motives, he talks about God. He says, The Searcher of Hearts knows my true motives. This isn't somebody who's just saying,

you know, who's just posturing flippantly like a typical politician. He's saying, no, no, no, no, no. I am swearing to God that I don't want to be any more than a citizen on my farm. Where does he say that?

Because I don't know that quote. Yeah, no. He speaks so much about he talks about the searcher of arts. I can look it up for you, but this, you know, it's, it's one of these things that it's verified in his correspondence. You know, there's this big repository. It's founders archives.gov, but he actually says many times that, you know, this, like, I believe a lot of it to here. There's actually in his first inaugural address, he wrote a giant first draft.

It was a draft he ended up not using. But it's really wonderful to read. I think it's one of the best things you could read. And he says, actually, let me see. I'm just going to pull it up here. He says, I solemnly assert an appeal to the searcher of hearts to witness the truth of it, that my leaving home to take, let's see, upon myself the execution of this office. The quote continues.

let me, this is just stuff that you could look up. Was the greatest personal sacrifice I have ever in the course of my existence been called to make. There's more quotes like that. I could look them up for you. But you have to address why do, I mean, I talk about this all the time because I'm talking about my revolution book everywhere I go. But the denigration of virtue, the denigration of Washington, the denigration of the United States of America. There are people out there, I think a life like Washington's, when you quote this kind of stuff, it really is embarrassing for people who don't want to believe in God to have to deal with this evidence.

This evidence, it flies in the face of their secularist bias. This really seems hard to deny. It seems hard to deny that God's hand was in the founding of this country and that God, I think the thing is that when you find a genuinely virtuous man, it is embarrassing for people that are not virtuous. And they want to say, well, you know what, really behind it, he's just a hypocrite. And let me give you some examples.

And you just cited some of them. They can't bear the idea that he really was good to the bottom. They just can't bear it. It's embarrassing to them. There's citizens. Yes. Well, they're cynical about God. and they have to project that cynicism on any historical figure.

And it's interesting because I've literally had a friend who loves history that says, oh, well, Martha Washington was a Christian, but George Washington was going through all the motions. And I just thought, first of all, where's the evidence for that? Secondly, you're essentially inputting complete hypocrisy to Washington. And this is a man who, by his entire conduct, hypocrisy was just a horrible crime to this person. So why would you assume that? You know, in the book that I write, I quote his 1783 circular, which would have been his farewell address had he not been become president and issued his more famous farewell address in 1796.

And in this document, he talks about what were the trends that led to America to the founding of this country. And it's he kind of traces this long, you know, the trends of Western history. He talks about the unbounded extension of commerce, the progressive refinement of manners, the growing liberality of sentiment. It's all these different trends, the labors of philosophers and sages and legislatures, the treasures of knowledge through a long succession. And yet he says, above all, the most important factor in the creation of America was, quote, the pure and benign light of revelation, revelation, a capital R, which is a

reference to scripture. He's saying that all of these created America, but the most important thing that created America was scripture. What he's really talking about is the greater understanding of scripture that developed, which is why when Thomas Payne wrote common sense, which is arguably, I mean, it's one of the most important books that led to the revolution. And I'm not touting Thomas Payne. But Thomas Payne, even though he was a heterodox, you know, in terms of his religious beliefs, he used an argument from Scripture to argue against the institution of King because he knew that America was such a Christian nation that this was the most powerful argument that could resonate. And that's why George Washington said scripture was the most important thing that led to the founding of this country. And it's right there.

Of course, they're going to try to say, oh, well, he didn't mean it. Well, you're going to have to prove to me why he didn't mean it because this was Washington, this was his first farewell address. for all he knew this was going to be his last big public document. Why would he say that if he didn't believe it? Today's show is brought to you by Grace precious metals. In an industry that can be confusing, Grace believes in doing business differently with Christian values, transparent pricing and a focus on straightforward gold and silver bullion, not high markup collectible coins. They even publish their spreads directly on their website so you can see the numbers before speaking with anyone. whether physical precious metals may fit your financial plans at metaxusmetals.com.

That's metaxusmetals.com. Well, this is what's so amazing. The more research I have done, the more astonished I have been at the evidence. It's so overwhelming. And then what I always say following that, which I'll say now again, is that it then makes me angry that this has been hidden from us, that people have tried to denigrate these ideas. And it's because of their cynicism,

you said it a moment ago, their cynicism and their own corruption, that they can't bear the pure and benign light of truth, much less the pure and benign light of it. It makes them uncomfortable. So they constantly have to denigrate an attack. I mean, the idea that he would be described as a deist, again, it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

It's just plain wrong. It's just plain wrong. By definition. But it actually amazes me at the chutzpah, at the brazenness of that claim that you have historians, great historians, like, you know, Richard Ellis and others who just put this out there. Joseph Ellis. Yeah. Who seem to, I guess, want to believe it. I don't know what it is.

But his, I mean, the one thing I was going to say is that, and again, the title of your book is refusing a crown he didn't need to refuse a crown everybody is egging him on and saying look it's the most logical thing in the world we know you're a good man we know you're going to be a benign and beneficent monarch you know take it why why why should you refuse it why and and yet he does and i i think that we always we always go by what people say in terms of their faith and I say well it's nice that people say things but watch what they do you'll know them by their fruits the fruit of his life he acts like somebody who knows god is real and who depends on god in in in in in being there uh to um to support him in a way in other words he he basically says i'm

going to do the right thing and it's obvious that he knows god will be there with him because it would make no sense to behave the way Washington does if God is not in fact going to be there. And he says, I've seen evidence over and over and over of God's hand. And he behaves like a man who knows God will be there. That, you know, as the girders, you know, it's okay, I think of Mr. Magoo, the cartoon that, you know, he's blind and he's just walking and the girders appear as his footsteps, you know, into the void. A girder appears and he keeps walking. That's walking by faith. But you see this in the life of why. Washington, it's not avoidable. And that to me is the most really dramatic, clear example of his faith.

Well, it's fascinating because in the years after the revolution, here they are eight years of war, so much sacrifice, and they finally make it through. And Washington described winning the revolution as something that was nothing less than a standing miracle. That's actually what he said. And this is the guy who had probably the most comprehensive view of the revolution. And all he could do was, was put up his arms and say, my gosh, it was a miracle. And during the subsequent years, when America continued to face crises because of the system of government that had had the articles, he constantly talked about how, you know, when they were dealing with Shea's rebellion, when they were dealing with the crisis that led to the writing of the Constitution, he constantly says, and those letters

during that time period are really fascinating, because in them, he says, I just can't believe that the God who got us through everything before, whether it was the disaster at Long Island, whether it was crossing the Delaware, the Winter at Valley Forge, the Newburgh Rebellion, all of these things. The God who brought us through all of that would abandon us now. He just said, I could not believe that. And he knew when he... When does he write that roughly?

This is around 1786, 87? Yes, he says this throughout the trials that led to, you know, the Shea's Rebellion and the crisis that produced the Constitution, that whole period, which oftentimes it's not really examined and discussed as a crisis moment, right? Because you have the revolution and how difficult that was, and then you have Washington's presidency. But it's also that key period in between in the write-up of the Constitution that led to that, you know, in the 1780s, where Washington talks about that, you know, the country is still going through trials. I mean, imagine winning a war, and yet the country's future is not secured yet.

And that's a particularly profound moment because after the Constitution is written, everyone is telling him, not that you should become president, but as a historian Bruce Chadwick wrote, you must become president. You have to. You really don't have a choice in the matter.

You have to become president for the sake of the country. And he writes all these letters where he talks about, look, I am doing, I don't want to be, become president and you can't blame him because his reputation was sky high. It was, you know, you could argue no person was more naturally loved by his people than Washington was

at that moment. And he knew that jumping into the political fray was exposing his reputation. It was politics. It could be nasty. He talked about that he knew he would be criticized unfairly, and he was, which makes it even more poignant. And yet he had, that faith that God who had brought the United States through the revolution would still be there for them throughout the future and the, you know, the infant stage of America. And I think there's something very profound about that because he was willing to risk his reputation, which was so high. He knew that you could only go downhill. He knew he could only go downhill. And in some ways, he did go downhill because being president was miserable for him. He hated it. Being president

strained his relationships with men that he admired like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, James Monroe, all these people that he had worked closely with earlier. And it was such a difficult time. The parties developed. There's no president that hated being president more than George Washington. But he stuck it out because he trusted that God would get him through it and the whole country through it. Well, it's so interesting.

You said a moment ago that he said that he said, that it didn't make sense that the God who had delivered them in his estimation over and over and over to bring them through to 1783, that that God could then abandon them. It doesn't make any sense. And I say the same thing for our country now. The God who delivered Donald Trump from having his brains blown out in Butler, the God who allowed President Trump to get back in office after being treated in a way that's just unprecedented by, you know, we know by whom. It doesn't make sense. You know, when you're connecting the dots that then, oh, it's all going to fall apart.

It doesn't make sense. And the fact that Washington puts it that way, the fact, again, it's evidence of his faith that he sees God's hand in the creation of the United States of America. He clearly sees this and witnesses to it and says, therefore, unless we've missed everything, God will support us as we continue. And God does support them. And I think it's an important lesson because I think I'm always quoting Samuel Adams' speech to Congress September 30th, 1777.

They're, you know, they're cowering someplace outside Philadelphia. And he says, good tidings will soon arrive. and he goes on and he lists basically that we've been faithful and on and on and on. So therefore we have to know God will deliver us. There can be, can there be any doubt? And two weeks later they get the news of the smashing victory at Saratoga. So of course, he was right, you know. And so, but it's so interesting the role that faith plays that George Washington's

willingness to serve, you know, in the, in the, in the, in the, in, in the, constitutional convention and on and on and on and on. He really did behave like a man of tremendous faith. And so to me, again, that's the greatest evidence that not only that he had faith, but that God's hand really was dramatically and rather obviously involved in the creation of the new nation. Well, you know, the 1783 circular that I'd mentioned earlier, his original farewell address, He ends that document with a prayer.

And in it, he says, I now make it my earnest prayer that God would have you. And this is a document that was officially written to the governors of all the states, but it really was meant to be a farewell address to the country. It's his last circular. And his prayer, he prays that God would dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy. He's quoting Micah, the prophet Micah. and to demean ourselves with the characteristics of the divine author of our blessed religion. He's capitalizing divine author.

And without a humble imitation of whose example, we can never be, we can never hope to be a happy nation. So he's saying that in order for us to succeed as a nation, we need to imitate the divine author. He's talking about Jesus. Ron Chernow in his Pulitzer Prize winning book. And Ron Chernow is not a conservative. But in his Pulitzer Prize winning book, he says it's very clear that this is Jesus. He says Washington is referencing Jesus.

And a lot of historians have tried to say, oh, well, Washington just put it there because he was posturing to all the Christians in, you know, the country. Or what they try to say is that it was his aides that were putting it in there. They have no proof of that. It's not like there's any proof that the AIDS wrote,

oh, I put this in here because Washington didn't really believe it, but I do. But Mary Thompson, who is, she was a historian at Mount Vernon, and she basically was the main archivist there. And again, she's not a conservative or anything like that. She says very clearly that George Washington would not have put something in there

unless it's something he believed himself. This was not, I mean, Washington was known to be meticulous. He didn't just throw in references to Jesus because, oh, okay, my aides put it in there and I don't really care what they put in there. This was meant to be his final document to the nation. And he ended it with a very clear reference to Jesus, saying this is how we succeed as a nation.

And he's saying, look, the Christian faith is very important. You know, as a Christian, I believe this is true. You know, he talks about it as revelation. But he's saying it isn't just enough that, you know, Christianity should be a part of this country. It's essential to the happiness of our country. We cannot be a happy nation if we don't imitate the divine author. It's right there, the circular of 1783. Anyone who wants to read it can read it. You can look it up. Do you quote it? Is it in your book? Yes, I quote it in the book. And I quote Ron Chernow, identifying that as Jesus. I quote Mary Thompson,

who is a very respected, you know, historian. She's written books. about George Washington's faith and about the Mount Vernon enslaved community there. So, again, it's not like she's coming at it from a conservative perspective, but she says, Washington would have never had this in there flippantly. This isn't something, you know, but that's the argument they always make. They say, oh, well, his aides put it in there. He didn't, but they have no proof of it. Well, I want to say again, folks, the book is refusing a crown,

how George Washington changed the world by Richard M. Lim, L-I-M. Richard, this is very important what we're talking about. It's very, very important. And as I said earlier, my secret plan in writing my book Revolution was to get people, to suck people in to get interested in going further and in reading other books. And I put your book at the top of that list, refusing a crown, because we need to know this stuff. We need to know this stuff.

This is not extra credit. This is not for history buffs. This is for Americans. If you're an American, you need to know this and you need to share this and spread this. We need to know how our nation came into being. We need to really know, not to say, well, I think it or I hope it, but to know, no, this is, if somebody puts a gun to your head and you really need to say yes or no, did this really happen, most people are going to say, yeah, the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

So there are people are going to snipe, you know, and who just don't like this. And so they're going to, they're looking, and I've, you see this all the time, that they're just looking for anything to say, even though the tremendous welter of evidence is that this is who he was, this is true. So you've done really an important work. Where does your book start and where does your book end? Do you talk about his early life or do you just leap right into the moment where he refuses the crown twice? And by the way, I want to talk about both those times. I leap into the surrender at Yorktown. And that moment to me, what's interesting about it, you know, there are lots of great books on Washington.

And we love learning the stories of him as a military leader at Trenton, you know, during the siege of Boston or at Valley Forge. And Washington is great in those moments. I also love the Washington after Yorktown. I think that you could argue that is Washington at his greatest, from 1781 to 1783. It's not Washington on the battlefield. It's Washington having to deal with the issues that go directly to what does it mean for America to be a republic?

Because during that time, America, it's just trying out this new experiment in, a republic. It has to define on the fly, what does it mean to be a republic? We know that it means that the people rule. But questions like, should we have a standing army? Because standing armies were the symbols of tyranny. And the problem was that America's hatred of standing armies led to a very terrible situation in which they didn't pay the soldiers. And many of the soldiers that joined were the ones that didn't have as many future prospects at the time. And they were in desperate need of being paid. And yet America refused to pay them, which made them very angry,

which led them to consider overthrowing Congress, which would have destroyed the entire experiment. So it's these fundamental questions of can a republic have a semblance of a standing army? Can a republic pay its soldiers? And these are questions that were very difficult to work out at the time. And yet Washington had to navigate all of them. And that's, that's part of the, what I think, think maybe not everybody's going to understand, but what you're talking about, the, the, the, Massachusetts Puritans, let's say, Samuel Adams and John Adams, Benjamin Rush, they had this really purest view that we're just going to have militia, which is just going to be, you know, the boys are going to get together and we're going to defend our, what we believe in and

whatever. And Washington says, well, yes, up to a point. At some point, we do need to have a standing Army. And we understand we don't want the standing army to take control and whatever. And so you need virtue. If you don't have a man like Washington at the head of the standing army, somebody who takes as his model, Cincinnati and his plow, if you don't have that, it doesn't work. So this is the miracle to me of America is that it shouldn't work. The only way that it works is if you have men of virtue and character. And Washington volunteers to be the first man of virtue and character

and to show the way and to show Congress that, yes, people like me exist, you can give me power and I will not abuse the power. I mean, it is a very big deal. And I'm trying to think when they give him the powers of a dictator,

I guess it's December of 76, where Congress finally realizes, you know what, we better give him a little more power to, because he seems to know what's going on. He's the one there, you know, in Trenton and on and on. And so they give him this power, and he immediately writes back to them,

basically confirming to them that, you know, you've entrusted me with this great power. I don't take it lightly. I see what you have done. You've stepped out in faith. I will not abuse that. It's just amazing to me, really, that this man existed. And I think if you need proof of God,

you just look at the life of George Washington. Washington. It really, it, it just, it shouldn't happen in history that somebody this noble would exist at a time when you need someone this noble to exist. I mean, it's just amazing. Well, it's fascinating because Washington had to deal with a concept, republicanism, that was all theory at the time, especially when you consider this is, there had been republics before, but they were usually republics in city-states like Rome. And now here, here, is a nation consisting of big states, you know, the states were as big as European countries, and now they're trying to create a republic over this large area. This is just an unprecedented

idea. And Washington had to deal with the realities of that. What did that mean every day? And the reality of that was that since Republican theory said that you don't pay your soldiers, his soldiers were starving. And the fact that his soldiers were starving and dying and miserable, that threatened victory, first of all. So it threatened the existence of the country. And it also created an incentive for the soldiers to want to essentially coerce Congress, which is what led to the Newburgh conspiracy. And it also led Colonel Lewis Nicola to suggest to Washington, hey, why don't you become a king? Because monarchies are the most stable system. And the fact that Washington was clear-minded enough to know that we don't need a king. We shouldn't have a king

because that is hypocritical. And yet at the same time, understand that republicanism could not rely on theory alone because theory doesn't lead to good results. If you really want rule by the people, you need a few things. You need, first of all, virtuous leadership, which is what he demonstrated. And secondly, you need a realistic understanding of the world. And I was thinking about it. People talk about his farewell address, the last one, the actual farewell address he issued as president, which every American needs to read. And everyone talks about what Washington said in it. And they always say political parties, that he hated political parties, and they also say avoid foreign entanglements.

The thing that they're missing is that those are policy prescriptions, but they're not under The underlying principles. The underlying principle of the farewell address is the concept, what Jesus said, is that you must be wise as serpents, but innocent as doves. And Washington talks about how America needs to conduct itself differently because it's a republic. It respects the idea of equality. It respects the idea of inherent rights that God has granted us. So we act innocent as doves. We treat all nations, well, which is what most nations didn't do. But at the same time, we have to be shrewd. We have to understand human nature. We have to understand that man has fallen. He talks about how the love of power is in every human heart. That's a Christian idea that we are all fallen. And he talks about how we need to organize our society with all of that in mind, where we have checks and balances that check everybody. You know, we have the rule of law. And so what they're missing about the farewell address is that it's this idea of Christian realism, that the best way to attain

our ideals of equality and freedom is to understand the ugliness of human nature, which is the idea that we're all fallen and that we all love power. And again, when people talk about the farewell address, it's like they have the most superficial understanding of it, political parties, foreign entanglements. No, no, no, no, no. It's human nature he's talking about. It's understanding, having a realistic understanding of human nature, which is a Christian idea. And it's all right there. Having a biblical, a biblical understanding of human nature, which happens to be a realistic view of human nature.

And if you don't believe that, look to the utopianist idiots involved in the French revolution and in the Bolshevik revolution. And in voting for Mamdani as mayor of New York, there are always going to be utopianist jugheads who don't have a biblical view. of human nature. But George Washington did. They think they can choose change human nature. Yeah.

Which is, yeah. That's quite right, which is also an unbiblical view. We're at a time. Richard Limm, L-I-M, congratulations on your book, refusing a crown. And I do say this, folks. Most of the people watching this program, I've ordered my book or reading my book. If you want to read past that, and that's my secret goal, read Refusing a Crown, by Richard M. Lim. Richard, just a joy to have this conversation. Congratulations on refusing

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