The Eric Metaxas Show - #192 - Erwin Lutzer

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, Pastor Erwin Lutzer joins Eric to discuss his new book Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones. Lutzer explores Karl Marx’s writings about Satan, hell, revolution, religion, family, private property, and the ideas behind the Communist Manifesto. He contrasts Marx with evangelist D.L. Moody, whose Christian preaching reached enormous audiences in Britain and America, and examines why the battle between Marxism and Christianity remains relevant today.⭐ ORDER NOW:Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World📕: https://a.co/d/0ir3NlapTODAY'S SPONSORS:🪙 Grace Precious Metals: https://www.metaxasmetals.com/🛏️ MyPillow — Save BIG with code ERIC: https://www.mypillow.com/☀️ Honest, fast, and free Medicare plan guidance: https://askchapter.com/metaxas/0:00 Erwin Lutzer Joins1:23 Karl Marx And D.L. Moody4:39 Did Christian Revival Help Stop Communism?7:15 Marx’s Disturbing Writings About Satan And Hell11:44 What The Communist Manifesto Actually Says14:09 Marxism, The Family, And Religion19:39 The Rejection Of Objective Truth22:52 Revolution, Borders, And The Marxist Vision25:32 What Communism Did To Christians30:50 D.L. Moody’s Answer To Marxism

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Visit Wayfair.ca. Today or download the Wayfair app. Furniture made for all of life's moments. That's Wayfair. Wayfair, every style, every home. Folks, welcome to the show. This is the Eric Metaxis show, but here's the good news for you. I have the most wonderful guests.

I have a dear friend right now as my guest who has, dare I say, an important and fascinating new book. It is Pastor Erwin Lutzer, who is my guest. Erwin Lutzer, welcome to this program. I just, I get joy from talking to you. Thanks for coming on. And thank you, Eric, because we're going to be talking about some very important things. And people may ask the question, why is it that we're talking about this?

Number one, I want people to be able to understand the culture. much better. Number two, think of the implications of what we're up against, but also to help people to know what to do in the midst of our present situation. And so, Eric, I am as excited as you, maybe even more excited to talk about this book. But we have not even given the title of the book. Please tell us the title of the book and why you wrote it, because I am so fascinated with it. Actually, the title of the book is Marks. Moody, two contemporaries, two gospels, two tombstones, because at the end of the book, I go to the tombstones and assess their legacy and one choice. Eric, let me tell your listeners how this came

about. Just over a year ago, I was leading a tour in England, and I went there early with a camera crew to give a lecture at the tomb of Karl Marx in London at the Highgate Cemetery. Most people don't know, excuse me. I mean, it's a fascinating concept that Karl Marx is buried in London. I have never visited his tomb. Yeah. And I'm going to try to miss it in this lifetime. But I want to tell you, just the idea that he lived in London at that time.

Carl Marx was born in the Rhineland of Germany. And let's go back to that history. But Eric, there's a direct connection between him and Moody that I love. want to get to. But let's go back. Carl Marx is born into a Jewish family. His father converts to Lutheranism when Carl was six years old. Carl says some wonderful things about Jesus. By the way, he also makes comments about Martin Luther, which I have in the book, which I just can't do everything on this show, even though you're giving me plenty of time. Well, I'll go ahead and say it. Carl said Luther was a monk who began a good revolution because he took people away from the authority of the church.

Now it's my turn to take people away from the authority of capitalism. So he refers to Luther in that context. But anyway, he grows up there. His father converts. And Eric, his father has some deep concerns about him. But first of all, let's go back to the cemetery. just a moment. As I was preparing the lecture, I realized that he and D.L. Moody were contemporaries for 46 years. There are people listening, and forgive me for interrupting again, but there are

people I know listening who do not really know who D.L. Moody is. If you don't mind, give us the short version just so people can understand how amazing this is. Was the Billy Graham of the 1800s. His headquarters ended up being here in Chicago. He began a Sunday school that even Lincoln attended, of all things. He began Moody Bible Institute, Moody Church, where I was the pastor for 36 years. And then, Eric, he went to London and the British Isles, preached to 20,000 people a night without a microphone. We're talking about the late 1800s and became famous. Every newspaper carried his sermons.

As a matter of fact, this book, which was, We're talking about here, Marx and Moody. I wrote the Mark side. A professor at Moody Bible Institute wrote the part about D.L. Moody. And the headlines all around the world carried his death. So he was a very famous man. Think of Billy Graham in the 1800s. So they were together.

Now, here's Moody preaching in London in the late 1800s. We have no evidence that Karl Marx attended. did a Moody meeting, but his associate who helped write the Communist Manifesto attended and wrote about it in detail, described Moody, said how he preached, he preached the gospel, people got saved, all of that is in the account given by Friedrich Engels. Now, here's the thing. and by the way, Engels uses this to show how the bourgeoisie, the ruling class, keeps the workers in line and so forth. But here's the thing, Eric, Engels is about to die. And England has not turned communist.

And the manifesto was first published in 1848. They had lots of time. And they expected England to become communist. And he blamed it on the preaching of people like Moody. and his associate, Sanky, and the dangerous aid of the Salvation Army. And so if someone is listening today and you're a Salvation Army member, it was your organization, according to Engels, that helped keep England from going communist.

Bottom line, there weren't enough criminals in England. There were too many Christians to bring about the revolution that he thought was needed. But it is funny, though, because what he says is partially true. In other words, it is the preaching of Moody and others that galvanized. I'm mentioning that as it's an overhand compliment that they are the ones who kept, helped keep, helped keep one of the reasons that England didn't become communist now. But help us understand the dates, though. In other words, we know that the Communist Manifesto comes out in 1848, published by Marx and Engels.

What year was Moody in London preaching? It was in the 1870s. And he was there in the British Isles for three years. So I can't give you the exact date. Right, right. All right. Now, let's go back to Marx. His father at the age of 18, when Carl was 18, wrote him a letter.

And you need to grasp this. At times, I cannot rid myself of ideas which arouse in me. sad foreboding and fear when I'm struck as if by lightning by the thought that in your heart, in accordance with your head and your talents, has it room for gentler sentiments? Your heart is obviously animated and governed by a demon, not granted to all men, is that demon heavenly or Faustian? Let's stop. The average person listening knows about Faust, who made a deal with devil and he went to hell, okay? And that's the Faust of the Middle Ages. That's not this Faust. This Faust was written by the German Enlightenment philosopher Goethe. And in this Faust,

and by the way, I've been in Goethe's house in Weimar, but that's another story. But this Faust actually makes a deal with the devil with his blood for an endless number of pleasures, and he wins in the end. He said, a young lady, the devil helps him to do that and shows them how. And then when it's time to die, this Faust finds out that she is praying for him in heaven and he gets in on her prayers. And so in this Faust, you can make a deal with the devil and you can still win in the end. And you know, as I think about Marx's fascination with demonism, I have to wonder whether or not he actually did that. I have to take out time to just read a couple of lines of his own poetry. The Hellish Vakish.

I want to say there's somebody, before you do that, I want to frame this. Your book is titled Marx and Moody. There was a book some years ago. I think it was written by Paul Kangor called Marx and Satan. And Marx really was, and this is very interesting because most people would have no idea. Marx, and oftentimes people that rail against the church, they're not simply bloodless atheists. They are into the occult, into Satanism. And you, I think, are going to read some things that Marx wrote now, which will help us understand the diabolical nature of where he's coming from. Exactly. A couple of lines only.

My book has above five of his poems. the hellish vapors rise and fill my brain. See this sword the prince of darkness sold it to me, for he strikes the time and gives the sign. More boldly I will play the dance of death. But notice this. This relates directly to what you said, Eric. With disdain, I will throw my gauntlet full in the face of the world

and see the collapse of this pygmy giant, whose all will not stifle my ardor. Then I will wonder Godlike and victorious through the ruins of the world, and giving my words an act in force, I will feel equal to the Creator. And then he says, his father says, you're giving birth to monsters. One more couple of lines. Thus heaven have I forfeited. I know full well. My soul once true to God is chosen for hell.

Wormbrand was a pastor in Romania under communism, and he was tortured for 14 years in a prison. And he said this. He sees communism as the universal demonization of people. That is to say, the brotherhood of demonization. And he said that, Eric, because when he was tortured, they took delight in it. You know, you'd think that if you were commanded to torture somebody, you'd be glad to just get it over with and kill him. They were joyous in their torturing of people. So it is, and now the word comes to me that he used, collective demonization.

Now, what we have to do is to go on, though, I want to make sure that we get to the Congonist Manifesto, which I, by the way, have a copy of here. And I want to say that the manifesto is only 40 pages. Now, the book that I have is a little longer because there are some essays. Is it okay, Eric, if we plunge right into what the manifesto has to say and its relationship to our culture? Of course. If we're talking about a book called Marx and Moody, I think it's perfectly appropriate that we explain what is in the Communist Manifesto, which was Marks. Marx is mostly famous for that.

The other half of the book, which is about Moody, shows the contrast. It helps people to understand who he is. And if you are listening to this, I know Eric knows about Moody, but you know very little about Moody. This is the man to read. This is the book to read because you see, it shows that Moody not only preached the gospel, Moody had a heart for people. Moody was into social action in ways that I didn't even know until I read the book. Of course, I had read biographies of him, but the man who wrote it taught at Moody Bible Institute.

What he brought forth is absolutely fascinating, Moody's heart for the poor and so forth. But this is from the manifesto. In this sense, the theory of communism may be summed up in a single sentence, the abolition of private property. You see, the reason that we have war is because people own things. If you own nothing and the state owned everything, oh my, then we would get along just perfectly. And the manifesto is much more honest than I expected it to be. I mean, I've read it several times now, having written the book, but look at, you are

horrified at our intending to do away with private property. because it brings about the abolition of individuality and freedom. And rightly so, the abolition of freedom, bourgeois freedom, that is the ruling class, is precisely what we are aiming at. So why is it that Marxism is so attractive? Well, we'll get into cultural Marxism. I hope we have time for that. But the point is this, that individuality.

is gone. You join the warmth of collectivism. I think I heard that phrase somewhere before. But so that's number one. No individuality. You are part of a group. And you stay within that group. And you no longer have freedom to do what you want to do. It is the group and the state that determines it. Number two is we transfer our faith. We transfer our faith. We transfer our faith. from God into the state. And this goes together with the abolition of the family, which is spoken of here exactly. And it says the abolition of the family, again, even the most radicals he says may flare up over this, but that's exactly what we aim at. Let's take a deep breath. What's going on here? To Marx, history was conflict between class.

And if you take away the conflict, if you take away the oppression, why then indeed people are going to live in harmony and freedom. So you have to destroy belief in God. Why? Because God is the supreme oppressor. And you have to destroy the family because he says in here that men oppress their wives, wives and parents oppress their children. and they take them to church, and God, as I've mentioned, is the ultimate oppressor. So the abolition of the family is exactly what we call for. Now, Engels, who helped write the manifesto, wrote a separate book on the family, which he says is the view also of Marx. And Engels says that what you have to do is to take the child away from its parents

as soon as it can live without its mother. So the state is going to raise the child. Yeah, there's going to be free child support for sure because parents cannot be trusted with their children's education. They have to be educated by the state so that they can be educated properly. Are you seeing any parallels here, Eric? I mean, there's nothing new under the sun to quote someone. I think it was Oscar Wilde. Honestly, it's funny in a way because no matter where you look, you see the same thing over and over. Here you have in the middle of the 19th century, people doing what is happening right now in the beginning of the 21st century. They want to deconstruct God's reality. They're at war with God.

So whatever it is that God is ordained, they're at war with it. They're at war with liberty. They're at war with the family. They're at war with marriage. They're at war with all of these things. I mean, but to trace it back to Marx and Moody, to show that these two men were living in the same place at the same time and that there is nothing new under the sun. I mean, it's so long ago and yet it's precisely where we are today.

I mean, it's fascinating. But I want to go back before we forget, the diabolical nature for, For Marx explicitly to side with Satan against God, to want to commit deicide, to kill God and become God, that's Satan's project. So for Marx explicitly as a young man to write poetry along these lines and then effectively to try to really do that, we have to take that seriously. That's, it's fascinating. Most people have no idea about this. And, you know, I have to tell you this, Eric, that. many people listening, if they are Marxists, they're going to say you're unfair, and I'll tell you why.

Because as I read the literature, I realized that many people said that should be totally discounted because that was written when he was younger before he wrote the manifesto. So, you know, young people do what young people do. He wrote all of this poetry, and it's all bloody. It all has to do with swords. It has to do as Satan. And I forgot to mention something important. Do you know Faust that I referred to earlier in your program?

He said a line, actually Satan in Faust in the play, said a line that we shouldn't omit because Karl Marx loved it. You know what the line is? Everything that has come into existence is worthy to be destroyed. Hey there, folks. I've been saying that 2026 must be the year of accountability, whether talking about government spending or the way we steward our own families, we have a moral duty to seek the truth.

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If you have questions about your Medicare or want to ensure you're a good steward of your resources, please call chapter at 571, 421, 1,253. That's chapter at 571, 421, 1253. Talk to a real person and get the honest answers you deserve. I was just going to say, I was going to quote a different one, but if we're talking about Goethe's Faust, I mean, I remember, you know, reading it in college, but where Satan says Faust's,

the Methistopheles character, the Satan character says, I'm the spirit of negation. Yeah. It's nihilism unto death, unto nothingness. When you think of people today who think, for example, that America can't be fixed, it has to be destroyed, and on the rubble. And by the way, I took the time to look up the German words. It's not everything that has been created is worthy of destruction. No, that would imply God, but rather everything that has come into existence.

is worthy of destruction. Very, very fascinating. But there's something else, Eric. This is from the manifesto. And now we give to the real critical part. There are besides eternal truths, such as freedom, justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis, it therefore acts in contradistinction to all past historical experience. Now, we're going so fast here, and there's so much to say. So today, parents send their children to university, and they come back, and they say, you know, my child no longer thinks how I do. Yeah.

And it may be, and I'm not saying this is true in every case, I'm not saying this is true in every university, but it may be this. When I was growing up, and that was a way a long time ago, truth was something that was out there. We disagreed as to whether or not we got it. We believed that it could be attainable. We believed that things were true, whether we believed them, or not, there was this objective truth. Now, Karl Marx comes along and says that truth is whatever

the state needs to hold on to power. So in Russia, you have Prabda, truth. What is truth? It's what the government says is truth. And then what has happened in our universities, instead of that objectivity of truth, it is now moved within me. So that's why I can have my truth and you can have your truth. And you'll notice, I had to read this several times, it says that we will not even constitute truth on a different basis. We'll just simply wipe it all out and then out of the situation, the truth will arise. And we could talk about progressivism, which grows out of all of this, even going back to Hegel. And so it abolishes all eternal truths. So now truth is whatever you think truth should be.

And we think of the implications. Now, this is huge. As I was reading this, it dawned on me. I get to the end of the Communist Manifesto, which I have here, 40 pages. And in the back of this version, it says that this comes with biblical force. Okay.

But you'll notice these. words. Everybody reads the last words of the manifesto, workers of the world unite. Marx had a global vision, and that's why one of the reasons he also supported borderless, a borderless world. Why? Well, what he said is that borders are the way in which people hang on, capitalists hang on to power. So what you want to do is to consolidate power. So if the world is one, people should be able to move wherever they want to move, and it should be basically a borderless world. He doesn't say that as explicitly here as he does in other documents. But here's the thing. Last words of the manifesto, workers of the world unite. But before that, listen carefully,

the communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. That's why I commend the manifesto, it's clear. They openly declare that their ends can be obtained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at the communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose, that is the workers, but their chains. They have a world to win. And elsewhere, I quote Marx, saying this, we will not apologize for our violence. In other words, and people have to understand why, because you have these people who are owners of factories and lands, and everything is going to be taken from them.

That's not a happy experience. So they might fight. And the only thing you can do is to kill them, obviously. And so, yes, everything has to be overthrown. everything that has been accepted and so forth has to be, excuse me, rebuilt. And that is critical. And we can get into a contemporary democratic Marxism in a few moments, but this is the way in which it was applied. You know, as a pastor, people may wonder, why are you interested in these issues?

That's a good question. Let me tell you one of the reasons. I've preached in Albania twice. Fascinating country. Albania was under communism. Albania, its mosques, and its churches were all closed down. It prided itself in being the only truly communist country. It says that we're doing what not even Lenin and Stalin did. Christianity totally outlawed.

no religion in a funeral or in a wedding. Not only that, Eric, you have a child with a biblical name. You're given till the end of the year to change the name. In other words, if you were Paul, your parents would have to rename you because Paul is a biblical name. Your name is Ruth. They have to rename you because, after all, Ruth is a biblical name. Things were so bad that missionaries would take take New Testaments in Albanian, put them in plastic bags, and roll them down the river, and hope that Christians would be able to find them. I was in Albania, and it was believed that there were, during those days, during the 60s, it was believed that there was no Christians at all.

Now, there were a few. And when I was in one church, a woman came to the service, an older woman, and she brought a Bible, and she said, this Bible survived all the purges. And one of the most precious pictures I have is standing with her holding that Bible. Bottom line, as is often said, good government cannot save us. And I get that. But bad government can shut us down. and talk about what happened in Russia. Well, that's too evil to talk about. First of all, of course, you have Lenin, and Russia was a different situation.

It was already convulsing because the Tsars had not been very good, and the last one was spending a lot of time with his wife who was getting her information from an occultist, and so things were going downhill. They lived in their beautiful palaces, and the people were starving, And so when Lenin came along, I had an interpreter when I was in Russia in about 1985, and he said,

you Americans are too quick to judge. He said, during the revolution, he and his family lived in a barn all winter, just trying to survive, both the cold and for food. When the Bolsheviks came along, under Lenin, and then later Stalin, we thought, you know, we have to try it. this. I mean, look at the situation we're in. And, you know, you look around America today and you say to yourself, it is true that things are very difficult for a lot of people and we have to be sympathetic for that. But in the midst of a crisis like that, people could actually go into a theory that is even worse than they are now experiencing. I mean, you see it over and over, Erwin, this is what's so

fascinating, right? I mean, you know, when we talk about, for example, the people living under the Shah of Iran, those who didn't like it thought, hey, we'll trade this for anything, and they get the Ayatollah Khomeini. And they had no idea that what they were getting was dramatically worse than the Shah of Iran. In the French Revolution, they said, well, we don't like living under King Louis the 16th and the oppressive church. And so we're going to get rid of it all. And anything has to be better than that. And they get the French terror. You see this over and over, and it's a horrible thing.

I mean, the only real answer to this, you know, is American-style liberty, which is, you know, it's, I believe, God's answer to oppression is liberty and self-government. But it's not so easy to explain that to people sometimes. and so they'll go for whatever seems better, but in the end isn't better. And you're laying this out. And one of the things behind everything you're saying, because we've just got five minutes here, I just think people need to understand

that Christian faith has been at war with Marxism and communism from the beginning. I mean, it's amazing to see that in the 19th century, in your book Marx and Moody, how they know that the other guy is the enemy. You know, Moody and the Christians know that what Marx and Engels are preaching is oppressive, ultimately satanic, even though it's not explicitly so. And that Marx and Engels know that whatever Moody is preaching is their enemy. It's just fascinating to see the roots of it, which is my way of saying, thank you for writing the book, Marx and Moody.

I don't know. I want to speak about Moody for just a moment, okay? Go ahead. First of all, he was well aware of communism, even back. then. He said this in America because there was labor unrest. He said, if we do not evangelize people, the leaven of communism and infidelity is going to grow, and we are going to have a reign of terror. Those are the words, the likes of which we have never seen. So was Moody opposed to these ideas? Most assuredly, and by the way, Engels also hated Spurgeon. That's also something we have no time to talk about. What was Moody's main idea? The gospel, yes, three hours, ruined by the fall. This is what was so different between him and Marx. Marks goes back to a guy by the name of Owen who said this. There's no evil in us. The only reason people do evil is because of oppression. The river of evil runs past us. Oh, yeah. So just take away the oppression. And what we have to do is to find oppression wherever we think is.

it is, and we have to take it away. So Moody understood, we have a problem with sin, and sin can only be taken care of by God, not by us, ruined by the fall, redeemed by the blood, the sacrifice of Jesus. I love to talk about why it is that Jesus is the only one who's qualified to save us, and then, of course, regenerated by the Holy Spirit. And Moody preached this, but what else did he do? He was beginning orphanages. He was beginning ways in which the poor could be helped. He was president of the YMCA. He was engaged in social issues, and this was his challenge to everybody.

You become personally a means of charity to whoever is needy next to you. He was not looking for a government solution in that sense, though we're glad when the government is able to help. But the point is this. He was involved in that. So very quickly, let's go to the cemeteries. Here's Marx on his tombstone, workers of the world unite, and then he says this. Up until now, philosophers have only interpreted the world.

The point, however, is to change it. And as I stood there at his grave, giving that lecture, I was aware of the fact that he still rules much of the world from his grave. And then to the other side, you go to D.L. Moody, who's buried in Northfield, on his tombstone, he who does the will of God abides forever. And on his wife's tombstone, they shall see his face, and they shall reign with him forever and ever. And the point of all of this is to help us to see two different world views, two very different directions, and how it is that we can play a part in in sharing the good news of the gospel,

but we also have to know what we're up against. Sorry, we didn't have time to talk about democratic socialism, but it's one of the longest chapters in the book, Marx and Moody. Well, give me 40 seconds on that before we go, please. Well, the point is simply this. Have you ever noticed this, Eric, talking about socialism? DeRoy's talking about how to divide the money.

How do you divide it? never talk about how you're going to earn it. Because strictly speaking, you know, socialism isn't able to earn money. And so what you do is you have a pie, you divide it up, what happens? The pie plate is empty. Where are you going to do it from? You don't have enough. And the reason it is so attractive, and I'm glad you're giving me 20 seconds, is because of this, people judge it by its promises, not its results. The dream is free, but the cost is billed later. May I quote Churchill, the great vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of blessings. But the great virtue of socialism is the equal distribution of misery. I've heard that recently. That is,

a brilliant quote, the equal distribution of misery. There is Marxism. That is socialism. Erwin Lutzer, congratulations. The book, folks, is called Marx and Moody, Marx and Moody, so important for today to understand the two sides of this big issue. Marks and Moody by Erwin Lutzer. Brother Irwin, a joy always to have you. Thank you so much for the book, Marx and Moody, and for your time today. Thank you. bless you. Hey there, folks, Suzanne and I want to invite you to join us for something extraordinary. It is a Socrates in the city cruise on the Mediterranean, August 24th through September 1st, 27. That's a year from now. We'll spend eight glorious nights aboard the magnificent

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