The Eric Metaxas Show - #218 - Tim Mulgrew

Episode Date: October 9, 2026

What does it actually mean to be saved?Tim Mulgrew, author of Christian: A Contract With God: Understanding the Terms of True Salvation*, joins Eric to examine one of the most sobering warnings in Scripture: Jesus saying, “I never knew you.”Tim argues that many Christians have been taught to think salvation is simply a matter of walking an aisle, praying a prayer, getting baptized or mentally agreeing with the right beliefs. Eric and Tim discuss the difference between merely identifying as a Christian and actually being born again, why genuine faith should transform the way a person lives, and what Scripture means when it says faith without works is dead.They also discuss the sinner’s prayer, “once saved, always saved,” Bonhoeffer’s warning about cheap grace, discipleship, sanctification and why Christians should be willing to seriously examine whether their faith has truly changed their lives.⭐ ORDER NOW:Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World📕: https://a.co/d/0ir3NlapTODAY'S SPONSORS:🪙 Grace Precious Metals: https://www.metaxasmetals.com/🛏️ MyPillow — Save BIG with code ERIC: https://www.mypillow.com/☀️ Chapter -- Honest, fast, and free Medicare plan guidance: https://askchapter.com/metaxas/🦅 Patriot Mobile -- America's ONLY Christian Conservative Wireless Provider: https://patriotmobile.com/partners/metaxas🏛️ Socrates in the City CRUISE: https://socratesinthecity.com/cruise/0:00 Tim Mulgrew Joins1:49 Who Is Jesus Warning In Matthew 7?3:44 Faith Without Works Is Dead5:33 What Does It Actually Mean To “Believe”?7:50 The Problem With Easy Christianity9:07 Is The Sinner’s Prayer Biblical?10:10 “Depart From Me, I Never Knew You”11:32 Does Real Faith Change Your Life?13:33 Why Tim Calls Salvation A “Contract”15:01 What Does It Mean To Be Born Again?18:23 Eric On False Assurance And Discipleship21:31 Is Salvation Just A Ticket To Heaven?22:55 What Comes After Being Saved?25:57 Has The Church Made Salvation Too Easy?28:11 Dying To Self30:02 Should Christians Question Their Salvation?- - -LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE: https://www.youtube.com/@ericmetaxas#EricMetaxas #TheEricMetaxasShow #News #PoliticsChapter and its affiliates are not connected with or endorsed by any government entity or the federal Medicare program. Chapter Advisory, LLC represents Medicare Advantage HMO, PPO, and PFFS organizations and stand alone prescription drug plans that have a Medicare contract. Enrollment depends on the plan’s contract renewal. While we have a database of every Medicare plan nationwide and can help you to search among all plans, we have contracts with many but not all plans. As a result, we do not offer every plan available in your area. Currently we represent 50 organizations which offer 18,160 products nationwide. We search and recommend all plans, even those we don’t directly offer. You can contact a licensed Chapter agent to find out the number of products available in your specific area. Please contact Medicare.gov, 1-800-Medicare, or your local State Health Insurance Program (SHIP) to get information on all of your options.

Hey there, folks. As you know, I take my Christian faith seriously. Not everyone does. Not everyone takes my Christian faith seriously. Not everyone takes their Christian faith seriously. The question is, what does it mean to take it seriously? Well, I have some thoughts on that. But even better than that, I have a guest on who has some thoughts on that. His name is Tim Mulgrew. He has written a book with a provocative title. Are you ready to be provoked? The title is Christian, colon, A contract with God, understanding the terms of true salvation. Huh. I thought you just had to sign a comment card and be done with it. But maybe we were wrong about that. Maybe God requires something of us. Huh. Interesting.

Tim Mulgrew, welcome to this program. Thrill to have you on. Congratulations on the new book. Thank you. Looking forward to it. Well, listen, when I read about this, the book, I said, I got to have Tim Mulgrew on because this is about as important as it gets. I've been talking about the same thing in different ways. I wrote a book called Letter to the American

Church a few years ago. I think a lot of Christians have really bought into some heretical ideas. A lot of pastors have bought in some radical ideas, which is effectively like, you don't need to do anything. All you need to do is say yes to Jesus. Well, yeah, except what does that mean? Well, what prompted you, first of all, what's your story and what led you to this point? We've said, I've got to write a book about this. Well, it's actually my fourth published work. And really it was the earlier books that kind of led me into this whole thing. I come across Matthew 7 where Jesus is saying, depart from me, I never knew you.

You know, in church, they don't really bring that out much, but the reality of the situation is, is who is Jesus talking to when he says this? When you dig in just a tiny little bit, you begin to realize that he's speaking to people who believed that they were Christians, right? Now, in my book, I talk about the difference between a label Christian and a true Christian. And it's these label Christians. And I once was one of these label Christians. So I speak from experience as well as what Scripture tells us.

But he's talking to people who believe they've got a ticket to heaven because they followed the rules. They walked down the aisle. They said their, quote, sinners prayer. They got baptized. They went to church. They did all the right things. They sat up straight in their chairs, minded their manners, tithe, did all of those, quote, good things. interestingly though, they do know that Bible talks about works related and that it's not by your

works. And yet this is what we do. We behave well as good Christian people. But we don't even really know what it means to be a Christian. And so that's really what prompted the writing of this book is to pull out what the Bible says is true. Not what we heard or what we've been taught, but what's true? Well, it's interesting because I was, yesterday I was thinking about my book on Martin Luther and about how Luther, I actually think Luther goes too far in certain directions. And this is always, I think, how the enemy wants to get us, right? He's like, grab a good thing, but just grab it a little too hard, you know, go too far with the good thing until it becomes not a great thing, not a good thing. not a good thing.

And that's this idea of you're saved by faith. Now, we know that's true. But again, these are just words. What does it mean to say? I say, yes, if the scripture says that, then it must be true. But what does it mean to be saved by faith? There's a false implication sometimes that actions don't matter. That's incorrect, right?

In other words, that's, that is incorrect because faith without works is dead. But Luther didn't like that. He didn't even like the whole book that included the phrase, Faith Without Works is Dead, wants to get rid of James, calls an epistle of straw by the grace of God. He doesn't do that, thank the Lord. But you can see how he was so in love with this idea that were saved by faith that he wanted to push it past the scripture.

That seems to me the heresy that's crept into the church today, that any time you talk about behavior, morality, character, People say, well, that sounds like works righteousness. Well, it's not, but maybe it could be, but there is such a thing about faith without works is dead, leading to thinking about how I live and what God requires of me. So when did you decide you needed to write this book? Yeah, well, it's been developing over quite some time.

But here's what I noticed to cap on to what you're talking about. And that is words. Words, we don't really understand what words mean anymore. So what you're talking about with Luther, if we go all the way back to the time of Jesus, one of the things that the Bible doesn't tell us, but history does, is that there were a great number of people claiming to be the Messiah. when Jesus was coming. So in the prophecy of Daniel,

they all knew the time of the Messiah was coming, and they all kind of knew about that right time. And so the work of the devil was to put thousands of people there to claim to be the Messiah, and it turns out to not be true. So by the time the real one comes along, it's like, great. We got another clown showing up saying he's Messiah, right? And this is the air of what's going on.

Now, you roll that forward to modern day, and we toss words around without even really understanding what they mean. One of the key words that I tune into is the word believe. You know, Disney has done a great job of getting us to understand that the word believe is this magic formula that if we just think it hard enough and want it and wish it hard enough, that we can make it come true. And, you know, Disney has its place, but in Christianity, we've, really need to take a harder look. When you look at the word believe, as it was written by the original writers in scripture, to believe something, it's a word that wasn't used a lot in daily language. Why? Because of what it meant. It meant that the very fabric of your being,

every cell in your body, this was who you are. Not what you think, not what you wish, not what you would like, but who you are. You are a believer. That means that no part of you doesn't believe. It's a very, very, very strong, very powerful word that, you know, the devil has basically watered down into making it easy. To believe is easy. This is where we get easy-believism. This is what I call easy-chair Christianity, right? Where you basically believe in Jesus, as the demons do, You have faith. Now faith has become a word that's a lot like the word, believe. We don't really understand the difference between faith and believe anymore. We think they're pretty much the same thing. You just need more faith. You just need to believe stronger. This is what we say. But the reality

of it is, is there's not at all what scripture says or what scripture means. This relationship with God, this is what God has been trying to restore since the early days of Genesis. And this is the gospel message. Well, the church, and I don't even like to say that, I'm going to blame Christians, because Christians are the church. But whenever we say the church, we always imagine it's somebody else, or it's a building. The reality is Christians are responsible for making this simplified. If you roll back to the days when, you know, in the 70s and the 80s, when gospel tracks were printed by the bazillions, and we passed them out to everybody, did it do? It simplified the whole process. Well, and then it led you to believe that if you get to

the last page and you repeat these words like it's some magical incantation, that you'll be saved. And once you're saved, you're always saved. And scripture supports that. Of course, we like to focus on the always save, not the once you're saved. We don't have a question that part. but we've been led to believe that all you've got to do is walk down the aisle, say the sinner's prayer, which, by the way, isn't found in scripture anywhere, and nor is the phrase Jesus said, repeat after me. Neither of those are true. But this is what we've done. We've boiled it down. We've made it easy. And we have led lots of people to Jesus. Well, we may have led them there, but we sort of left them there and abandoned them.

The book really is going to talk about what a true believer is, not what I call label Christian, where when you peel a label off, you have no idea what's inside the can. It wants to focus on what this. Why? Well, because in Matthew 7, it says, depart from me, I never knew you.

And if he's saying that to people like you and me who go to church every Sunday and we've tithe then we do all the right things and we act and we talk and we speak. You know, it says, but Lord, didn't we prophecy in your name? Didn't we go to church every Sunday? Didn't we? Didn't we? Didn't we? And he's like, well, okay, great. I have an idea who you are. Why? Because we're missing the relationship with God.

We're expecting an inheritance from a perfect stranger. Does that make any sense? Does it make any sense that all you have to do is walk down the aisle, repeat this phrase, get baptized, and in exchange for that, you get streets of gold and mansions and pearly gates, and you get to live in heaven forever and ever and ever. You know, if you understand our humanly saying of you get what you pay for, it doesn't seem like we pay very much, but we're expecting that. Well, now, the answer to that, I can hear people say, well, of course I don't pay. Jesus paid, and it's by faith that I get what he paid for, which of course is true. But,

What you're saying, and this is to me, this is the key here, right, is that, I mean, this is why I'm excited that you written this book. We've been given this idea that all you have to do is pray this prayer and believe in your heart and it's done. And I think, well, if you actually believed in your heart, if you actually repented and gave your life to Jesus, if you actually died to self when you prayed that prayer, then it is done. and the proof that it's done will be the rest of your life. You will die to self every moment and pour your heart out for God's purposes as proof that you actually have faith, as proof that when you prayed that prayer, it was real. But there are a lot of people that have been told you just need to pray that prayer and that's that. But they're not disciple.

They're not told this is a new way of being now. You, if you really have trusted on Jesus, if you've appreciated on Jesus, if you've a appreciated what it is that he did for you on the cross. If that's true, it will be evidenced by how you live. Bonhofer writes about this, of course, famously in cost of discipleship, this idea that had crept into the church in his day, this idea of cheap grace. It's just words. And, you know, yes, the scripture says you're saved by faith. And then the question is, do you really have faith or do you just say you have faith? And I think the way you were putting it, it's this cheap idea of just believe, just even faith.

The question is, are you trusting in him with your whole heart? Have you given him your whole life? That's really what faith means. And we've turned it into this theological formula or do you ascend to this theological idea? Yes, yes. Well, that's all. And what you're saying in your book and what I've been saying is, no, no, no, folks. That's not all.

Maybe you've missed it. And I think, I hope people listening to this conversation will be scared for a minute enough to think maybe I have missed it because I think a lot of people have missed it and it breaks my heart that we have pastors that are not talking about this and that are not being honest with their flocks. That's true.

There's a lot to... So the reason why I call it a contract with God, and I do explain this in the book, it's contemporary language. We don't really use the word covenant. We don't really even kind of underwent. understand. That's kind of a church word. And what you're talking about is a lot of church words. Now, when I entered into Christianity, I was fed all of these church words. But you have to

understand from somebody on the outside who didn't grow up in church and didn't know anything about it, those church words don't mean anything to me. I really don't understand what these things mean. What does it mean to be born again? I mean, you know, look, Nicodemus struggled with that and what is faith? What is this? You know, and so you start to ask the questions, and most Christians don't have the answer because they've been taught the same thing. Well, here, all you really got to do is walk down. And basically what everybody is hoping for is that if you go down and you do that, that's a big enough seed planted that, oh, well, God will give the growth. God will take care of everything from this point forward. It's all God. It's all God. It's all God. Well, sure. And I'm not

discounting that at all. What I'm saying, though, is that God gave us the most amazing gift of all time. People think that eternal life is the amazing gift of God. The reality is everybody has eternal life. The question is where they spend it. No, the real gift that God gave us is free will. Free will means that it's our choice. It's our decision. It's when we decide that we want ourselves to be replaced completely by God's spirit. That's when the process of being born again happens. Now, in all the years that I've taught and all of the years that I've been in church, you know, you talk to Christians about what is their testimony and so many of them will give such a lightweight, you know, I went down the aisle when I was eight years old, you know,

Jesus convicted me, he knocked at the door of my heart. These are all things we learn in Sunday school, right, to use the right words. But the real question is, is, is it such a significant event? Now, if we look historically, the most significant event that occurred in all of the time of man is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nothing is greater than that as far as events go. Now, in your personal life, the most memorable changing event that occurs to you is being born again. It's effectively a resurrection, if you will, from the dead. Now, we're talking allegorically, whereas Jesus, it was physical, but it's showing the picture. If your testimony is simply that I walked down the aisle, I prayed the prayer,

my pastor told me, once I'm saved, I'm always saved, I was baptized, I became a member of the church. That's not being born again the way Jesus describes being born again. And that, by the way, is the first step, the first ingredient. Yes, it's true, once saved, always saved. And we, as humans, love that. Why? Because it says, when I'm always saved, I can't lose my salvation.

And we focus on that. But you forgot the first part. It says once saved. The question is, is, were you actually biblically scriptural definition? You've often heard me talk about the golden triangle of freedom, that intersection of faith, virtue, and liberty. And for that triangle to hold, we need access to the truth.

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I just want to say, I think the lie, and again, I've heard this so often that the point is, if you actually were saved, well, then, you know, everything will follow. The Holy Spirit will steward you through discipleship and on and on and on. You'll be sanctified and change day by day over the course of your lifetime. Yes, but I've seen many cases where that doesn't happen. I'll give you an example.

That's right. President Bill Clinton always would say when I was 12 years old, I was at a Billy Graham thing and I gave my life to get. And you think, okay, great. How did it go after that? Well, according to all accounts we have, he lived his life. He has continued to live his life in a way that would say whatever happened at age 12 didn't take, wasn't real. there was no discipleship. I mean, and we have example after example

after again, this is not to condemn him. It's condemned this idea that none of that stuff matters. It's covered by grace. If you knew what it caused the Son of God, the torture death on the claim, if you knew that, you couldn't live like that. You couldn't take it so lightly that you would live like that,

that you would add sin upon sin. I mean, we all struggle. but that to me is just one classic case where people they make that statement like, well, that was that. And I signed the comment card and I, you know, send a check to the Bill of Graham organization every year.

I don't know what that is, fire insurance or where they, but it's not, it's not biblical. And we have to be honest that Billy Graham, whom I adored and revere, you know, to some extent, fed this idea, I think. I don't blame Billy Graham,

but you see how people could get that idea that, well, I just, all I need to do is this, and that's that's that. And you say, well, no, that's not biblical. If you don't get plugged into a church, Bill Graham always wanted to get people plugged into churches because there's a process. You need to be disciples. Right. Well, the problem is that we saw that it worked for Billy Graham, so we created the formula

and we just keep repeating it over and over and over. It worked for him. It must work for us. What we don't understand is that for Billy Graham, it was never a formula. He had hundreds of people down below praying constantly that people would be led. Now, those were orchestrated and set up to be emotional connections because, you know, a show like that needs its success. And church sort of adopted that. It's all about, you know, the pressure of, well, the pastor's up there pleading for somebody to come forth and nobody's coming forth. I feel bad for the pastor, you know. And it's all these wrong motives that lead us down. And our motive is the critical part of the whole thing. Am I doing this for the right reasons? I'm walking down the aisle because my grandmother keeps encouraging me to do it or my youth leader or somebody like that. And so, oh, I guess so. I'll just go do it. But if that was the beginning, I don't really have a problem with it.

But the problem is, is that's the beginning and the end of most Christian experiences. And in my book, I'm saying there's four ingredients that Scripture says you must have if you want admission to heaven to simplify it. Really, it's a relationship with God, because what we really should understand is that our goal is to have a relationship with God, not a ticket to heaven. but you must have these four ingredients and the very first one is salvation being born again there's three more but everybody leaves off at the okay i've been saved i walked the aisle and maybe they were born again i want to now you're right the spirit can lead you but but lead you where

if you're if you're going to a church that doesn't teach it what good is it well listen and i've seen this many times i mentioned bill clinton that's one example i've seen this many times of people that you think, for crying out loud, I saw what I saw. They made this confession of faith. They were going for a while. What happened? What happened?

Okay, so the book, your name is Tim Mulgrew. The book is Christian, a contract with God, understanding the terms of true salvation. So Tim Mulgrew, what else is involved? We know the first step. What are the other three steps

you talk about in the book? So they come right out of Romans, because Paul took this message, this complete gospel. And if you remember, even Peter challenged him on it. And Paul basically said, Peter, is it better to give a watered down easy gospel so that more people believe? Or is it better to give the truth whether they like it or not? And of course, the truth is always better, but we don't really like it. So coming right out of Romans, Paul basically says you've got sanctification, you've got justification.

You know, and these are, again, big church words. What I want to do is boil down. It's important not that you understand what the ingredients are. That is important so that you can speak about them, but you have to understand how they work, right? And so this is the part where we get into it in the book. We're going to talk about, well, what exactly is sanctification? That's one of those big, fancy church words.

But what exactly does it mean for me? And this is the important part is being able to apply scripture to our own lives. I have a whole ministry. It's called enjoy scripture.com and there's a variety of books. And the whole goal there is to read and understand the Bible and scripture so that you can apply it to your everyday life. Why? So that you can fall in love with scripture so it's not just words. So in the book, we're going to talk about these fancy words and what exactly they mean. but I'm going to do it in English, not in church speak or heavy theology, because I want people to understand.

This is important. I would much rather deal with this now and be challenged now and have my feet held to the fire now than to be facing Jesus saying, depart from me, I never knew you, right? Because there's only two paths once you get there. It's depart from me or enter in thou good and faithful servant. We all want to hear the thou good and faithful servant. we just don't want to pay the price for it. Enter in thou good and faithful servant.

Folks, you hear that? Those are the words of Jesus. Enter in thou good and faithful servant. We got to think about that. Have you been a good and faithful servant? Do you care? Do you think about that? Seven days a week?

Good and faithful servant. Okay, so Tim Mulgrew, the book is Christian, a contract with God understanding the terms of true salvation. What is the website you just mentioned where people can find more of you? Enjoy scripture.com. Enjoy, and it's spelled E-N-J-O-Y.

Enjoy scripture.com. What a great, what a great website. Enjoy scripture.com. So obviously there's a lot of other stuff there that people can find. Enjoyscripture.com. The book is Christian, a contract with God.

Tim, it's music to my ears to hear you say all this, because I feel like it's just, it's at the heart of everything. We really do have a church, and I've seen it over the years, that they're not getting this. They've figured out a formula, and the formula is not biblical, folks.

So if it's not biblical, here's the bad news. It's from the pit of hell. Satan has designed the formula, okay? Whatever that formula is, it sounds, it's just like Christian faith, except not quite. and if it's not quite, that's very bad. Even if your pastor said so.

Even if your pastor said so. Well, I mean, that's the thing is. A lot of pastors are, you know, preaching this false gospel, and I don't know that they mean to do that, but the point is that we are the ones that are responsible. And again, this easy idea, we're supposed to commit our whole lives. Now, maybe that sounds onerous. Now, folks, if it sounds onerous to you, then you didn't read the part in scripture where it says, you know, my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

God is calling you to something beautiful and true. It is the very reason he called you into existence as a human being because he wants this for you to walk with him, to have a relationship with him. But it would be like kind of like having parents and say, well, it doesn't matter if you make your bed or brush your teeth or comb your hair or I just love you. You know, it's like, yes. But if they really love you, they're going to say, now, come on, I want you to, I want you to improve.

I want you to grow into the full measure of a wonderful, young man or wonderful young woman. I want more for you. I want you to be physically fit, emotionally, mentally fit. I know you to want you to know what the Bible said. This is what I want for you. And I think we forget sometimes that God calls us to such, it is all beautiful. But we kind of, you know, we've been told falsely often that I don't need to do anything. And that's simply not biblical. God is calling us to a relationship and it does it does involve effort, but God calls us to that effort. God calls us to be warriors for his purposes in our generation. That's beautiful. That's why you exist. It's what he has called you to, but he won't force you. Well, Tim, we just get a few minutes.

And he says it's going to be worth it. And it is more than worth it. Oh my goodness. It's so beautiful. It's pressed down overflowing, right? What does that mean? it's worth it beyond measure. What it takes, though, is shedding yourself. What does that mean? It means ending your selfish nature, which is our true nature. We are self-preservation, self-ish. That's a bad word. People don't like that word, but it's true. We are about ourselves. Once we get past ourselves, Once the prodigal son came to himself, everything changed. God believes that. That's why he put it in the Bible.

Once we come to ourselves and realize that God has the better solution, and those aren't just lip service words that we say to look good on Sunday. It's a true change of heart. It's a true born-again experience. This is what so many, quote, Christians are missing. in their lives, and they can't understand why this promise of God is so empty and he's so quiet. This is heavy stuff. So the website is enjoy scripture.com. I'm talking to Tim Mulgrew. The book is Christian, a contract with God, understanding the terms of true salvation. We've just got 90 seconds left.

Tim, just give us a final thought. So grateful for you and for this book. I would hope that people wouldn't read it like they typically do to fill their head with information. I would hope that they would read it and challenge themselves and be honest with yourself because you're the only one who can answer for it when the day comes. You need to get it right and you need to get it the way God wrote it. We know God is gracious, but I think there are a lot of people that are overdue. dependent on his grace and they don't really understand what grace is. It's such a big deal. So I think this is again, this goes against some of what Luther was saying, but we should

sometimes question our salvation. And when I say question it, I don't mean question did what Jesus do is sufficient, but question, do I understand what he has done? Have I actually understood it to the point that I will lay my life down for him. Do I really get it? Or do I just say that I get it? This is the question, folks. There is no bigger thing. Have I fulfilled my end of the contract? Because it's a two-way street. It's exercising your free will to fill your side of the contract. And God will most certainly fulfill his side of the contract. But it is a contract. It is an agreement between two parties. It does require something from you. Well, I hope we've challenged a few people. I hope they'll get your book, Tim Mulgrew. The book is Christian, a contract with God,

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