The Eric Metaxas Show - #51 - Kirk Cameron

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

Today on my show, I sit down with @KirkCameron to talk about the firestorm that hit after he discussed what happens to the unsaved and why Christians should be able to ask honest questions without getting branded a heretic. We discuss the major views on hell, why the details are debated, and why some leaders act like secondary doctrines are gospel essentials. TIMESTAMPS0:00 Intro 0:32 Kirk Cameron Joins 1:34 Why Question the Hell Doctrine? 3:57 Eternal Punishment vs. Annihilation 12:48 The Hellgate Roundtable Plan 22:23 Theology Quiz or Grace? 27:03 Belief Is Lived, Not Said

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Folks, welcome back. As you know, I used to be pretty good friends with Kirk Cameron. You know, he was like a big star, big Christian. And then I found out he's a big heretic. He's denied everything. Noah's Ark, like everything. And I said, I got to get him on the program and confront him on just, just boldly coming out against, like, you know, the basics. Like divinity, the resurrection.

It's shocking. Kirk Cameron, welcome to the program. You know, with friends like you, I mean, what are you doing saying I'm denying the divinity of Christ? You've denied everything. You've denied everything. It's just unbelievable. No, I have to laugh because you and I both know, like, the Christian world, it's kind of funny because there are people for whom secondary issues are primary issues. Like, they will fight you to the death with a sword over.

if it's literally a six-day creation or whatever it is that you could have a disagreement about, they act like, if you don't believe that, you're hellbound. And one of those issues is the details of hell. We all know hell is real. But there's some people that have very, very specific ideas about it. And if you even question those ideas, like honestly, they act like, man, I thought you were saved. I don't know what's going on. Right.

And so you dared to question what's called conscious eternal punishment. And there are people that act like that's in the Nicene Creed. And I think, listen, this is something I think we could discuss this. I don't think, but they, I guess, Kirk, here's the issue. They act like there could be nothing clearer than what the Bible says on that. And I think, well, I'm not even saying. I disagree with them, but the idea that you can't have a conversation about it is a little, I get worried about that because we're not talking about the resurrection of Jesus here.

We're talking about details that some of the greats in Christian history would question this, you know, from Augustine to C.S. Lewis to John Stott to other people. So how did you, how did this come up for you? How did I step into this mess? Well, but what I'm saying, it's kind of funny because about seven or eight years ago on this pro on my radio program, I should say, we did a hell week where we talked about, you know, hell because it's something that, you know, people have different views on it and stuff. And I think that even bringing it up gets some people worried because they're afraid that even, so what did you do? What did you say or when did you say it? Yeah. Get us get us started.

it here. So I'll give you the 100,000 foot view, and then we can double-click and go do a deep, deep dive right into the heart of the matter and get into the weeds if you want. Essentially, what I did is on my show, the Kirk Cameron Show, I have a conversation with my son every Wednesday called a dangerous conversation. And I've always told my son, James, you can ask me any question you want. And so he asks me about girls. He asks me about AI relationships. He's asking me about theological questions, and this time it was dead. What happens to somebody after they die if they're not saved, if they're not a Christian? Because some people think that you're going to an eternal conscious torment,

kind of like the Dante's Inferno kind of thing, devil in the pitchfork, flames, roasting forever. And then others had this idea of annihilationism where you're kind of snuffed out. And then there's other views called universalism. And then there's other afterlife views that are a purgatorial kind of view you might find in Catholicism. what do you think? And I said, well, you know, this is something I've been studying a lot. And it's very, very interesting because I never questioned it before. I just believed what I was told by my heroes in faith. So when we got into it, we explained these two Christian views, conditional immortality, also known as annihilationism, which most people don't understand. They create a

caricature of it. Even Christian leaders are doing that and shoot it down. And then there is the eternal conscious torment view, which has been held historically by the church ever since Augustine with gusto, although it's not necessarily the original view of early church fathers with regard to what happens to the wicked when they perish. Nobody's denying hell unless you're Rob Bell, unless you're somebody else who wants to say hell's not there. What they're saying is that hell is real, sin is serious, God is just, the punishment is eternal. But how exactly does that? does that unfold? Did C.S. Lewis have it right? Where the gates of hell are locked from the inside, not by God from the outside? Or is this something more akin to a place of torment that God holds people

in or something else? And that's what we were wrestling through. And boy, I just caught hell for it, for even asking the question. Well, first of all, and people say, what happens when you die, I want to make clear. One thing we know that happens is that for a season, your hair and fingernails continue to grow. That's been established. Your ears and your nose as well, I think. But it's also been established that immediately after death, the phone calls tend to taper off.

Yes, I said, I just want to be clear about that. I want to be clear. No. How can we joke about how? What kind of a Christian friend are you, Eric? This is not looking better. And culture always trivializes how. What the hell?

That was a hell of a good show. Yeah. You know, and yet it's the one thing Jesus warned of with such dire seriousness that he said, it'd be better for you to gouge your eyes out than to go there. And so we need to be able to talk about it because it is difficult. Well, we need to affirm that it's real and that judgment is real and the demonic is real and and Satan is real.

And so, yes, anybody that wants to sluff it off and act like, you know, I think we've involved past talking about hell. No, the scripture is clear that it's real. But we should be able to discuss it. And I think the people, what I always take issue with, Kirk, is when people insist something's clear as a bell. Yeah, when it's not. It doesn't mean that.

Well, no, but that's what I'm saying. But I got crosswise of people who, um, what is it, post-trib eschatology or something like that. I said something and people came at me. It's the same thing with you. As though I had denied the divinity or the resurrection, divinity of Christ or the resurrection. I was like, yeah, wait a minute.

First of all, they don't know church. I don't even know what I believe. And I think probably I agree with those people that were attacking me. But they acted like this is the most important doctrine. If you don't agree with me on this doctrine, you're not a Christian. And I thought, well, then most Christians are

surprising, Eric, is when those kinds of criticisms come from Protestants. I mean, remember what it means to be a Protestant. I mean, we love to schism. We did that from Mother Church a long time ago by asking really good questions. And so if we want to be a part of that tradition

and referring to scripture as the North Star, as the anchor of our doctrine and our beliefs, we've got to be able to ask questions, I think, especially about issues like you're talking about eschatology. We're talking about the nature of the punishment in hell. Not denying those things, but wondering, what do the details look like? We need to be able to answer those questions. Or I think we have to be honest and say sometimes

the answer is, I'm not sure. That's right. You may be able to come to the conclusion. I think it's this. It looks like it's this, but I can't say for sure. I can say for sure Jesus is Lord. I can say for sure the Bible is the word of God. But so, okay, so you were talking to your son about this in a very, you know, open-minded way. Well, casual way. I wasn't trying to be a controversialist. I wasn't trying to set off an atomic bomb. But we had people whose ministries it is, either whether evangelism or maybe president of a theological seminary or something.

These people have lots of skin in the game, lots riding, and many people who are supporting them that essentially come to them and say like, I mean, imagine Eric, one of your friends, your supporters, your colleagues, comes and says, Eric, this guy over here said something. It's really bad. You need to call them out. Distance yourself from them and agree with us that he's a heretic. What are you going to do?

You've got a choice to make now, and now you're on the hot seat for deciding who you're going to side with? Well, I had people being forced into that position. These are friends of mine, heroes of mine. And, you know, I was called by a pretty important leader that basically was kind of sad and it's a fatal

error because going down this road of questioning the traditionally held doctrine of how people are punished in hell, it really attacks the gospel and the character of God. And think of the irony.

Martin Lee. Well, first of all, why can't you say who that was? Why can't you say who that was? It's a matter of public record. Well, it is. And so you could figure it out or somebody could figure it out. I guess I just want to, you know, save face as much as possible. But I was disappointed because I'm not trying to like make a name for myself.

I'm not trying to get views. I've got a nice job and things are going swimmingly. But when my son asks me a question, I can't say, oh, don't have. ask that question. Just go with, go with tradition. Well, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to say, let's respect the creeds. But if we go back to the earliest creeds, like the Nicene and the Apostles Creed, we don't have this topic listed, I believe, because there were valid arguments between good and godly men on the topic. And that's why. I think honestly, Kirk, I think that there are Christians who believe that whatever happened before the Reformation was not really Christian.

Like it's skipped from John at Popmos to Luther or something. Like they really, they don't want to talk, you know, it just gets so preposterous. While the corrupt federal elites have been quietly building wealth through cryptocurrency, hardworking American patriots have been left behind. Today, I want to tell you about metaxis crypto.com. They're bringing access to cryptocurrency wealth to real Americans. Crypto is supercharging President Trump's America First Economic Miner. miracle and now you can be a part of it. I've partnered with Block Trust IRA because their mission

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advantages as those coastal elites. Right now, their clients are seeing over 250% returns on their investments, and with military-grade security, investments are protected by up to $200 million dollars in insurance. Don't wait, visit metaxis crypto.com and find out how they can help you join the Trump crusade financial revolution that's finally giving forgotten Americans access to the greatest crypto wealth opportunity in history. For a limited time, they're offering my viewers up to $2,500 in bonus crypto when you open an account. Crypto created 80,000 new millionaires last year under Trump's phenomenal economic leadership. Why not you next? Well, look, you have have, so you kind of convened a roundtable to talk about this issue. This was my solution

to when it all hit the fan. I decided, you know what? I'm a student here. I said that I have changed my perspective. I have shifted after examining the scriptures and I am deeply impacted and persuaded by the conditional immortality view of the nature of hell. And I said, but I could be wrong. So I'm going to bring four scholars together from around the world, the brightest and best that I could find, who were both qualified and willing. Interesting.

I haven't said this to anybody yet, Eric, and you're the first time I'm actually revealing this to. I had a difficult time finding people from the eternal conscious torment side to step up to the plate. some of them were qualified but didn't want to come. They said they didn't feel prepared. They didn't feel like they were the best representative, although they felt prepared enough to criticize me publicly

for holding a different view. By the way, I will never speak on this subject publicly, and we're not going to air this. I'm just letting you know because I don't want to be attacked. And yet when I finally got guys to come, I got wonderful guys. This was Gavin Ortland. This is Dan Patterson.

This is Chris Date, who, by the way, debated Al Moller on this very subject back in the earlier 2000s on Moody Radio. But I couldn't get a lot of the heavyweights to come to this roundtable. So I brought together wonderful guys, Scott Coppa, Paul Copan and others, and we had a two and a half hour deep dive. All the hard questions didn't avoid any of their scriptures in Revelation or Jesus' words. and we had a wonderful time with loving, respectful discourse, sharply disagreeing with one another

so that we could all open our Bibles, be good Bereans, and figure out why this is such a fascinating and difficult topic. It's called Hellgate. Well, and so the YouTube, people can watch this on YouTube. And it's, well, not right now because we're still talking. Hey, we're still talking. But how do they find it on YouTube? Just look up Hellgate.

Yeah, look up Hellgate, Kirk Cameron. You'll find it or just go to my show, the Kirk Cameron Show, on YouTube, and it's right there. Okay. So just to break this down for people who've been putting up with us so far, the two standard views, I guess, that we're talking about is one is, quote unquote, conscious eternal torment. They prefer punishment because the more modern guys,

They think the word torment creates a caricature of people roasting in flames and being tormented rather than C.S. Lewis's view, which is a form of punishment that is sort of the eternal goleming of Smeagle. It's the you without God that just twists and turns into a grotesquely disfigured version of yourself by your own permission and your own desire rather than burning in literal flames. So eternal conscious punishment is the preferred term now. Okay, whatever. No, it's just, I just find this eternally entertaining because the way people sort of rive about getting it just right

because they're worried about it. Instead of feeling the freedom to say, I want to know the truth. I want to know what does God want me to know about this. So what does this scripture say about this? So one view is that, hell is to be punished forever and ever. Well, both do you say that?

We even say that. Yeah, both will say it's being punished forever and ever. It's an eternal punishment. But really, the difference in the two perspectives is, do you believe that the soul lives on forever and ever in one of two places, either in heaven or in hell? And you're conscious in both of those places. Well, I would challenge people to try to find where in the Bible anywhere that it says that the soul is naturally eternal and lives on forever.

But even so, this is what I'm saying, this is where it gets hard to, even when we're talking about eternity, ladies and gentlemen, a lot of people believe eternity means a long time. That's not what eternity is. Eternity is outside of time. Now, that's a little confusing. What does it mean to be outside of time? Well, here's the answer. No, because we're inside time. So the whole thing is, to some extent, speculative, to be outside of time in eternity. God does not exist for a long time. He exists outside of time. He created time. So that is itself

something that's difficult to think about. What does it mean to be in eternity? I'm in heaven for eternity or in hell for eternity. It doesn't mean for billions of years. It's outside of time. It's another thing. It's an eternal state, but it's not just a long time. So that's one thing that needs to be thrown out there. But the issue of annihilation, just so we're clear on this, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this view of annihilationism says that, no, you won't be punished forever and ever and ever in eternity. At some point, God will annihilate your soul. Now, I don't know why anybody would think that that would be better.

it's a horrifying thing. It means you will be snuffed out. And that's, you know, when somebody, when the scripture talks about the second death, right? You die. Your body dies. But the second death is the death of your soul. So the death of your soul, does that mean your soul is wiped out death? Or does it mean your soul is damned, which is a different kind of death, a spiritual death?

And that's what this conversation is about. it's one or the other, or at least we're talking about these two options, and you're even raising that got you in all this trouble. Yeah, and isn't it fascinating? And it's not something that I think we should be giddy about, just because we've got the nuances right. I mean, the idea is that we want to avoid it, whatever it is. It's awful. It's terrible. Jesus said, cough, your hands in your feet, avoid it, and go to heaven and experience eternal life with all of the saints and God forever. And what was I going to say here? This whole idea of being able to ask questions is so important because we have a young generation of people who desperately need to know the truth.

And they cannot be told by old church farts that you need to just believe what the church has always taught for a thousand years and don't ask questions. And if you do or if your dad does, I'll call him a heretic or we'll cancel them and say that he shouldn't be listening. to. Whoa, oh, time out. Hold on. Wait a minute. I'm the guy trying to answer a question for my son. Wait a minute. Aren't we the guys out on the street with Ray Comfort preaching the gospel? Aren't we trying to reach the lost? Or are we just the guys who sit in our ivory towers and in our basements just arguing with other Christians about who's a heretic and who's not? I'm done with the sniffers, the heresy hunting ministries. I want to honor God, reach the loss, and I don't think the truth is vulnerable to difficult questions. Let's let's get in.

It's funny, Kirk, because you said the sin-sniffer heretic hunters. I mean, that's funny because I've noticed this, basically, that there are people who they seem to rejoice in doing nothing but like having theological arguments and finding people that are, you're a heretic, they seem to get joy in that. And I'm here to tell you, folks, if you get joy in that, you're a heretic. there's something sick about rejoicing about findings he's out of the kingdom we should long to bring everyone into the kingdom and we shouldn't be like aha we got you we got i mean there's a place clearly for clarity and division and logic or whatever but there's some people that they seem to major in this more than in in worshiping the lord or whatever and again this is this takes to sermon and there's no, you know, but there are people who act as though when you get to heaven,

there's going to be a theological, or when you die, there's going to be a theological test. And that is how you get in. And if you disagree on this and this, you're out. And that's, that is itself heretical. That is heretical. Think about it. Yeah, exactly. The scripture says.

I'm sorry, go ahead. No, but that's not biblical. But they act like they've reduced the, truth of God to a theology quiz. That if what's your view of the atonant? You're out. What's your view of the and you think that's that's that's just not biblical. That's right.

That's enlightenment rationalism which has crept into the church and has made the church focus on things that God is not as focused on. Now again, it doesn't mean that God doesn't have a view and that God doesn't care about of course, but there are people that seem to care about hunting the heretic more than leading somebody to faith. Now, I'm not saying I know who those people are, but I bumped into them. And it's a religious spirit, it seems to me. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I heard a sermon clip recently that was preached by Alistair Begg. And someone said there's one of the most powerful three minutes he'd ever heard. If you get a chance, you've got to look it up where the thief on the cross

gets to the pearly gates. And Peter or someone there asks him, well, why are you here? And he's like, well, I mean, he told me I could. And he said, well, hold on. He said, he says, let's just, you don't look like you belong here. Let's just get your statement of faith. Do you have your paper on justification by faith alone in Christ alone? And he's like, no, I don't have that. he's like, well, let me go get my supervisor. He said, why are you doing it? And he finally asked him all these questions that he can't answer. And he finally says, well, why do you think you get to come in?

And he says, well, the man on the middle cross said I could come. And it was just such a profound thing to say, you know, theology is important. We've got to believe the gospel of God, not some false gospel placing our faith somewhere else. But that's what that thief did. He believed that Jesus was the king of the kingdom. And he recognized apparently his guilt and through repentance and faith in the man on the middle cross. He got the past to come in and it was all by grace. And so I think, come on, you guys.

We're on the same team as the family of faith. There's a whole lost and dying world out there. And what may be a secondary issue to us, Eric, it's not the resurrection. It's not the authority of scripture or the gospel itself. However, you and I both know atheists who love. who look at eternal conscious torment in hell as a primary issue why they will not embrace the God of the Bible.

And if we don't recognize that and engage with thoughtfulness and compassion, we're going to lose these people. Well, listen, this is, the funny thing is, and this is one of the reasons I love you, is because you understand, like, hey, this is complicated. Being honest about anything is complicated.

There's no easy answer. And just as much as, in other words, I agree with people on both sides of this divide where you could say that some people will say, well, don't question stuff too much. I kind of agree with that to some extent. Yeah. Because there are people who do nothing but undermine and question and deconstruct. And that, of course you do. And that's not good. But then there are other people that they act.

I mean, it's kind of like when people talk about, you know, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or something like that. They really act like it's all about this fussy theology. And you think, well, it's not that either. God looks on a heart. And he loves us and there's grace, but we're not talking about cheap grace. We're talking about real grace. And what does it mean to trust in Jesus? I mean, there are plenty of people that act like it's all theological.

And if you mentally assent, you believe that you believe. you know, Jesus, but da da da da, yes, okay, check, you're in. And you think, well, are you going to live that way? Because if you're not going to live that way, I would say means you don't actually believe it. Yeah. So a lot of these folks have reduced stuff to intellectual constructs. It's this enlightenment rationalist you, as opposed to trusting in the Lord with your heart, where maybe you don't get the theology so much.

Right through the goalposts. Oh my goodness. That's it. I just saw a meme where A.W. Tozer, I think it was, said something like, the greatest theologian I ever read was Satan. And yet he is a devil still. There it is. Check, who is Jesus?

Bingo. Check, who is God? How is someone justified? He understands, check doesn't get in. Why? Because he's a devil still. He is in rebellion to God. And so were the religious leaders of Jesus.

Jesus Day. He called him a, you know, a den of thieves and wolves and serpents, whitewashed tombs. Well, that's the whole thing. I mean, I've been talking about this because of my book letter to the American Church about how there are people who they've got all the theology just right. And they know the Bible and they know, and you think, listen, at the end of the day, if you don't trust in him with your whole heart or willing to die for him. and know that he died for you. If you're not there with your whole heart and your whole being, then it doesn't matter what you claim intellectually. You're lying to yourself intellectually if you're not living it. And so for people where it's all about arguing about the theology,

and now again, the theology really is important. Of course it's important. But at the end of the day, it's more than mere theology. I mean, if you talk to somebody who has an IQ of 60, they're not going to understand, they're not going to be able to talk about a lot of the siblings of God's not looking at that. He's looking at your heart. He's looking at the disposition of your heart. Yeah. So, um, Eric, I got a, I got a great quote from the, uh, from the eminent theologian

Ray Comfort. He said, he said so many within the church are, are very unhealthy. You know, why? He says, because they're theologically obese and don't burn any calories through evangelism. Oh. That's pretty good. I like it. That's pretty good. Well, this is something, as you know, this is all. been close to my heart because all this stuff is important. Theology is important, but you can make an idol of correct theology. Yep. Amen. You can miss Jesus. Yeah. And that to me is the most demonic thing of all. Having all your theology perfect, but you're missing the heart of Jesus. You're missing the most important thing. And you've been lured over. So isn't that what we lament when we see a great

Christian leaders? You know, I don't know what you think of the, you know, the Philippiancy thing. And then we've got other great pastors and speakers and theologians in our lifetime who have fallen so hard. And you go, gosh, they had great theology. They wrote great books. These are the heroes that inspired my faith. And yet deep down in the in the basement, far off in the dark corners were lurking

these things that seem to get the best of them. And you go, you know, you mentioned Philippiancy. And by the way, folks, I believe in having grace for everybody. Like, we're all messed up. But we have to make, we have to clarify something. At some point, I guess Phil Bianzzi released a statement that I have gone against everything I believed about marriage. Yeah, he said that, right?

And I thought, this is the divide. The way you define belief, in other words, it seems clear to me you didn't believe that about marriage because you can't for eight years live a different way than what you actually believe. The problem is you had an intellectual idea that you didn't believe in. And you didn't live out faith in that. And this is where to me, where the evangelical church has gone so wrong, is we've defined everything intellectually. And it's like the Lord can see exactly what your theology is by how you live your life. He can see what your real theology is by how you live. And we've acted like, well, no, that doesn't count. It's a best.

what I say. It's about some statement of faith. And if I live in a way that's not consonant with that, well, that's what grace is for. You know who describes this so beautifully. What you just said is Jordan Peterson. And when he was asked, why he didn't just come out and say that he's a follower of Christ, he's like, do you know what it really means to believe? Do you know what he means to believe? You know, he does it. And he's like, you're talking about the hardest thing in the world to do because what would Jesus defined belief as is something I'm not sure you're ready to do, buddy, even though you call yourself a Christian. We're talking about, like, go pin yourself up to a cross.

We're talking about full-on confrontation with malevolence. It's going to cost you everything. And many Christians don't think about that. But, hey, I believe that this roundtable discussion we did called Hellgate is going to deepen people's faith, give them more gratitude for the cross when they recognize the gravity and the seriousness of hell. and encourage them to share the gospel with others. So I hope everybody goes and watches it. Well, first of all, we're out of time,

but I just want to say, I'm just grateful for your honesty, your willingness, your courage to talk about this kind of stuff. And I'm grateful for your hair at your age to have so much and to have it just looks so good. I glued it on.

I glued it on an hour ago. I glued it on an hour ago. I glued it on an hour ago. and I'm sticking with that. So listen, buddy. Love you, buddy. It's great to see you. Again, thanks for this, folks.

You can see it on YouTube, Hellgate. Thank you, my friend. Thanks, Eric. Hey, folks. I want to tell you about a coffee company. I genuinely admire 10-boom coffee inspired by the faith and courage of the 10-boom family.

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