The Eric Metaxas Show - #86 - Allie Beth Stuckey

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, Eric talks with Allie Beth Stuckey about Franklin Graham’s letter to President Trump, Christian responsibility in politics, weak pastors, toxic empathy, Hillary Clinton’s attack on her book, and the growing pressure on believers to stay silent while evil is called good. Subscribe for clips from The Eric Metaxas Show to hear politics and culture from a Christian perspective.

Hey there, folks. If you watch this program, which is called the Erkmataxis show, many of you don't watch it because it's hosted by Eric McTaxus. You watch it because Eric McTaxis has a preternatural, even perhaps supernatural gift for getting great guests. For example, my guest today is Ali, Beth, Stucky. Some of you know her from her podcast called Relatable. You've probably heard about her big bestseller toxic empathy, and it's a joy to have Alibeth Stuckian today. Alibath, welcome. Thank you so much.

I'm glad to be here. Yeah, listen, I want to talk to you about everything, which is always a little bit of a problem. So let's start with something. Where should we start? Do we want to talk about Franklin Graham's letter to President Trump back in October? I wasn't quite aware of this because, I mean, this has kind of come out recently.

But Franklin Graham took it upon himself, being Franklin Graham, of course, whom we love, to send a letter to the president back in October because the president had been making some classically Trumpian cryptic comments about heaven. And I think he's kind of trolling everybody. He's trolling Franklin Graham. He's trolling me. He's just trolling the world to kind of get us to suck a lot. us into some conversation.

And so Franklin Graham sends this letter to him telling him about there's only one way to get to heaven. And that's by subscribing to my Franklin Graham's theology. Just kidding. But he always has to use the shed blood and the thing. Like he just lays out the gospel beautifully. And a month later, I don't know if you know about this, a month later, I was at a wedding at Moralago.

President Trump walks into the room. I practically bump into him. and he points to my friend who just got married and says, this is the guy that's going to get me into heaven. I have no idea why he said that or just the most bizarre thing. I mean, he associates me with Christian faith because he's seen me in these kind of pastors situations and whatever. But he kind of blurts this out, which what cracks me up is even though Franklin Graham lays

the gospel out perfectly for him, he's still kind of playing with this idea. So I guess my takeaway is we have no. idea what he thinks. I'm going to see him tomorrow at the White House. Maybe I'll get a chance to say something. But anyway, that's what I'm thinking. There were so many things that I was encouraged about with this. So it seems that Trump shared this letter for the first time on truth social a couple days ago. And at the top of it, in the letterhead, you can see that Franklin Graham sent it in October. And I think this corresponds with that viral clip that was going around where Trump is on Air Force One.

The reporter is asking him a question. And he says, you know, quite frankly, I don't think that there's anything that I can do to get into heaven. And then he did a follow-up interview, maybe with Sean Hannity or someone saying, you know, I think there's a lot of good things that I've done that should get me in the heaven. But I don't know if it's enough.

And yeah, it's hard to know sometimes what Trump really thinks about these things. Is he just being sarcastic? Is he exaggerating? But I love that Franklin Graham took the access that he had. to the president took that moment seriously, whether Trump is joking or not to say, let's not mess around with this. Let's not even take chances. If you don't understand what actually gets you to happen. If you don't understand that it's not up to you at all, then I need to make that really clear to you. I'm sure that's not the first time that Franklin

Graham has shared the gospel. I know, for example, Phil Robertson has talked to me, has talked to a lot of people about. I was just going to say, Phil Robertson told me more than once how he laid it out for President Trump. Like back to you. 2016 with an illustration and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's this principle in advertising that someone has to see an ad about 20 times to do anything about it. And I just wonder, it's probably the same thing with any message. All of these people are planting the seeds. It's up to God to water them and give them growth. I also love that Trump shared it. It meant something to him. He gets a lot of letters, and this was said to him in October. He saved it for Holy Week. He shared it. And so maybe it did

prick something in his heart and that of course I love that Speaker Johnson shared it as well. And so good for Franklin Graham, not surprising at all, but that's a really, really good friend. A lot of people would be too scared to tell the leader of the free world, hey, you're a sinner and you're actually down for hell unless you get this. And he did. And that's what a good friend does. I think that's exactly correct. That is exactly correct. I think, and it's a tricky thing because, I mean, for me, you know, when I was at this wedding, because I've had a few moments with the president, but it's hard to know that line because you don't want to be rude. You're talking to the president. And he doesn't know, he's not obliged to listen to you or but he's being polite or whatever. And so you want to take that moment to say what the Lord wants you to say, whatever that is, you know, whether it's to plant a seed or to water or to whatever it is. You just want to be faithful to the Holy Spirit's leading. And so, but it is telling that the president would post that. I just think that it's wonderful.

And in case anybody wonders, he is at least a dramatically pro-Christian, pro-faith president. And that's more than can be said for many of the so-called believers who've been in the White House over the decades. Yes, definitely. I think every day, I mean, there are so many little moments that I think pass us by. whether it's, you know, Secretary Hegseth praying to the Lord, relying on Jesus for his strength, or whether it's Trump, I saw him a few months ago, standing behind this young man who stood up the trans ideology in his school, was completely persecuted for it as 12-year-old Christian boy named Shea. And just seeing President Trump stand behind him, those little moments we cannot take for granted because it would be the exact opposite if Kamala Harris were in office or any other Democrat were in office.

It would be standing behind a little boy who believed he was a girl was chemically castrated and they would be cheering something like that on. And that's one of a small thing. That is a systemic evil against the most vulnerable people in our society. And Trump is on the right side of that. He might not have all of the right theology or all of the right answers, but I'm so grateful every single day that he is on the right side of these issues and has people in his life sharing the gospel with it. When West Jet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel.

While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Well, you know, it's interesting what you just said. I mean, I have been furious. over the years to see feckless, in some cases, cowardly politicians who claim faith in Jesus

sort of piously, but they don't seem to have the common sense to understand that if Trump isn't elected, it's Kamala Harris, and they're going to bring truly wicked policies that are going to harm human beings and that you're responsible for whom you're, vote for. You're responsible because, but they, a lot of Christians have taken a pass. I mean, I think I, I, I, I was really scandalized in this last presidential election that Mike Pence and George W. Bush could not even take it upon themselves to endorse President Trump. They seem to be

tacitly saying, we don't care if Kamala Harris is elected. We don't like Trump so much that we don't care. And I think can, can they really not understand what happens under Biden presidency or under Kamala? Do they not, do they really not know that? I mean, I just find it so fascinating and disturbing. Yeah, it's really confusing. And I believe that Mike Pence is a genuine Christian. I don't know as much about George W. Bush's faith. And so, yeah, I don't really know, understand his reasoning. I look at someone like David French, who also professes Christianity, I think might even still, identify as a conservative. And he outright said that, you know, this time it needs to be Kamala Harris and echo that sentiment from other woke pastors out there. And I've just never really heard them

grapple with the policies that they know that someone like Kamala Harris puts forward and how they could be okay with that. Like, you know what that's going to lead to the slaughter of more babies. You know what that's going to lead to more kids being butchered in the name of gender ideology. and how can you, how can you assent to that? How can you basically endorse that? I don't get it. I'll give you my theory. I mean, my theory on a few of them.

I mean, first of all, when you mentioned something like David French, we are, when you think of folks like this, like you say, okay, Mike Pence is a Christian. To some extent for me, it almost becomes meaningless. Like, I hope I meet everyone in heaven, right? I mean, you know, I want everyone to end. end up in heaven. I know that's up to the Lord. But you'll know them by their fruits. And I think we have preached so much. And you know, you can even see this in Franklin Graham's letter to some extent, right? In other words, if you just believe this, you're in. That's true. We know that's true. But if you really believe it, you'll live it. You'll live it self-sacrificially. You'll be like

the 21 Coptic martyrs. You'll be like, yes, you can take my life. Yes, you can take my job. you can do anything to me because I actually believe this. And I think somehow in the evangelical church in America, we have ceased to talk about that aspect of it. And we say, well, you know, David French says he's a Christian. He's a Christian. Obama said he was a Christian. Right.

Joe Biden says he's a Christian. It kind of becomes preposterous. And I guess for me, ultimately becomes kind of meaningless. Like, I hope, I really hope these folks are Christians. but when you behave in such a way that baffles everyone who actually cares about the poor, who actually cares about kids that are going to be destroyed by transgender ideology, then you sort of think, at least I think, what is your faith worth at that point? And we're going to go to a break.

The other thing is I think that a lot of these Christians, they have a theology like they don't really care about this world. They're kind of like, well, it's all going to burn. I'm about the kingdom. It's just bad theology. and they don't care if a Kamala Harris is elected. If the world goes to hell, they'll say, oh, well, you know, I know Jesus wins in the end. And it doesn't matter.

Lots more to talk about with Ali Bethstocky. Folks, don't go away. I don't like alarmism. I don't like fear-mongering. I especially don't like people who profit from panic. But I do believe in telling the truth, especially when the markets are reminding us how fragile things are. Over the last few weeks, we've all watched the volatility, stock swinging, confidence-shaking, long-estanding. assumptions suddenly looking less solid.

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seem to get triggered by you in particular, which just makes you even more wonderful. But we can continue talking about what we were just talking about in the last segment, whatever your thoughts are, wherever you want to begin. Yeah, we were talking about the people

who profess to be Christians, but just continually, explicitly or tacitly endorse the evil ideology of the Democrat Party. And obviously there's a spectrum there. There are people who are just wrong politically. They have it right, theoretically, but they just have wrong politics, and all of us are going to enter the kingdom

of heaven being wrong about something. And then you have the other part of the spectrum, which are people who profess to be Christian in name only, but their lives, what they believe, how they support policies that translate into destruction and death and evil is completely contradictory to the faith that they espouse, and that probably is just not real. I mean, As you said earlier, there are a lot of people, Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, all of these people identify as Christians. And obviously, their belief system completely contradicts that. I think that's a different category than someone like Mike Pence that was wrong to not say, yeah, we need to vote against Kamala Harris in the election. But I do think has a true faith.

And so I think there are probably different categories there. But you're absolutely right to say that our politics and our faith are inextricably intertwined. And Christians, true Christians that don't understand that, I think that's where people like you and I, we have our work cut out for us. Those are the people that we have to engage and persuade and mogulize. Well, I remember, I was just talking to a friend about this last night. I had the privilege of being the main speaker at the National Prayer Breakfast in 2012. And Obama is there. And I will never forget looking into the audience and 20 feet away Hillary Clinton is sitting there.

And it kind of gave me chills because I thought, I can't even imagine the level of cynicism in this woman. I can't even imagine it. Just the level of cynicism and corruption and who knows what she believes. But the folks who were behind the prayer breakfast at the time, they would kind of gloat that, oh, we've got this Senate prayer breakfast. that we have this Senate prayer meeting that happens and Hillary Clinton shows up for this and that and I thought listen Christians you've got to get serious like this is not some game

if somebody really wants to push wicked policies maybe it's your job to point that out but they kind of acted like well no no no we just it's all about being bipartisan and sharing the person of Jesus whatever it's it seems like blathered to me there's evil Their people's lives are being destroyed. You know this. You talk about this all the time.

People's lives are being destroyed by wicked policies. And the Lord commands us to love those people to do what we can. You know, it's like when I've written about William Wilberforce, he was a politician who, you know, he spent his whole career trying to abolish the slave trade because he knew that Jesus and joins us to do what we can, however we can, including politically. Yeah. And we have tons of megachurch pastors that just, they, it seems to me they don't care.

They have a, I guess I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they have a bad theology. But it seems like the practical outworking is people are going to suffer because of that bad theology. Yeah. I always say that politics is not the only way or maybe not even the primary way to love your neighbor, but it's a way to love your neighbor. Politics matter because policy matters because people matter. Politics affects policy. Policy affects people. People are made in the image of God.

And so they matter to us and they matter to God. And we know Jeremiah 29-11 for I know the plans I have for you. But if you go right before that, the exiles, the Hebrew exiles are called in Babylon to seek the welfare of the city in which God has placed us. Christians, of course, are exiles in this world in this life. We are also called to seek the welfare of the city in which God has placed us. Not everywhere in the world. Can Christians do that politically?

They're just not free to. But here in America, we can. So we take advantage of that, as you said, to advance policies that are good for our neighbors. But it is amazing to me. And I've spent the last several years talking a lot about this when I wrote my book, Letter to the American Church, because it suddenly dawned on me how many Christians in America they bought into this bad theology that it doesn't matter. I don't need to.

Almost like politics is separated from their theology. Like, you know, we're just going to preach the gospel. We're not going to talk about anything political. And you think, what dead gospel are you preaching if you don't bring up the issue of slavery, if you have slavery on the docket? It's 1860. Well, we're not going to touch that. Or the Germans in Germany who said, well, we don't want to speak up against the Nazis because, you know, that'll rough.

I mean, this is a perennial problem. Folks, I'm talking to Ali Beth. Stucky, we'll be right back. For the first time ever, we're bringing you my pillow mattresses and mattress hoppers for as low as 9998. Remember, sleep's all about temperature and pressure points. Whatever sleep needs you have, we have the right technology for you. Like our MyPillow mattress topper, our queen size has over 10,000 individual comfort supports to help relieve your pressure points. And how about our 3-inch hybrid plus mattress topper? It's infused with copper and silver to help your body get

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but I want to touch on the subject of your book because it's so important. Yeah. Oh, sure. I do want to say one thing that we were talking about. We were talking about pastors that just refuse to speak out about things in politics and culture. And as you said, so perfectly, they think that it's separate.

They don't want to be divisive. They don't want to lose members. But I always say, you really only have to go 27 verses into scripture before you get into what's called the culture wars or before you get into what's considered political today. And that is that God made them in his image, male and female, he created them. So right there, you get a lot. You get the sanctity of human life that we're made in God's image. You get the definition of gender. You get the definition of marriage. So for pastors who don't want to talk about those three creation order fundamental things,

it's not that you don't want to be political. It's that you don't want to be biblical. And actually, you just don't want to talk about the very first chapter of the first book of the Bible. It was almost like God was like, I know that you're going to get confused. And so I'm not even going to make you read 30 verses. And we've got pastors who believe that they're nicer than God. I believe that the Pope in a lot of ways thinks that he's nicer than God, that he knows better, that he is more merciful, more compassionate than God lays out in his word. That's a self-idolatory problem that not only the Pope has, but a lot of evangelical pastors have too.

and it just comes down to a wrong belief about God, a bad theology. I don't know if you want to comment on that or we can get straight into my book. Well, let me hit pause. Chris, is this the 11? Five. This is the second five? Yeah. So then is this it or do we have time for an 11?

Except for more. What? We can keep it going. We can do a five. We can do another standalone five. You tell me, I'm confused. Okay. So I'm going to, I'll keep going with this.

five. Yeah, here we go. Well, I do want to talk about the Pope and I want to be clear, ladies and gentlemen, I'm a very pro-Catholic, non-Catholic. I'm not about to swim the tiber anytime soon. But in my seven men book, one of the heroes in there is Pope John Paul II, a giant of the faith who stood against evil, who stood against communism, who experienced the Nazis and the communists in Poland, a great hero. And then, you know, Benedict, a great hero. And since then, I don't know what in the world, I mean, if I were Catholic, I'm not.

But if I were, I don't know what I would make of the cultural Marxist blather coming out of the mouths of the popes because we know they're not speaking ex-cathedral. They're not speaking officially. But when they speak, you know, a billion plus Catholics take seriously what they say. And just the other day, Pope Leo just said something.

I think the word is inane, but, you know, I'll let you tell me what you think. Yeah, so he said for people who don't know that God doesn't listen to the prayers of people who wage war. And he cited, I believe it's the first chapter of Isaiah, where God is telling his people, look, there's blood on your hands. So when you pray to me, I'm not going to listen to you. There are some problems that I have with this. one when you're looking at that chapter of Isaiah, God is not talking about war. It seems to me, within the context, he's talking about murder. He might be talking about infantici. He's talking about all kinds of oppression. You can see in context, he's talking about oppression of the poor. He's not

talking about waging just war. Now, we can have a whole other debate about whether you think the war with Iran is just war or not. That's a different conversation. My problem was with the Pope saying that in principle, that as a rule, God does not listen to those who wage war. Like, okay, we got to tell that to Gideon. We got to tell that to David. We got to tell that to the heroes of the faith in Scripture, even our own founders, as you write so much about. And you could talk more about than I can,

who prayed to the Lord on their behalf, prayed for their own cause. And David himself says that the Lord answered his prayers when he was waging war against Saul by training his hands for battle. So not just by hiding him away, but by making David more, lethal. So it's just not true, biblically or historically, that in principle and per se, God doesn't listen to the prayers

of those who wage war. Sometimes, unfortunately, it takes force to defeat evil. And it just seems to me like the Pope doesn't understand that. Well, but it's so preposterous. I mean, it really makes no sense. We're talking about the Pope. We're not talking about some

lefty, you know, I mean, because we all know that, you know, there are people who identify as Catholic, who are idiots. I mean, Joe Biden, what kind of a Catholic is Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi? You know, the fact that the Catholic Church lets them get away with that is one huge issue. But when it's the Pope himself speaking, you know, Pope Francis said ridiculous things.

And it really is this kind of lefty virtue signaling. And I think one of the things that bothers me about it is it sounds, it's that kind of pious religiosity that I think, turns a lot of people away from God. I mean, people who have common sense just think, that just sounds like religious blather. There's no reality there. I mean, what are you talking about? Yeah, I mean, there is a reality of good and evil. And it's just true that sometimes, unfortunately, force is required to defeat evil. Again, maybe a different conversation when you're talking specifically about the war in Iran. But he has said repeatedly now,

but Christians must be against all war, and that is not true. And it's not just not true. It's insane. It's completely insane. Was Goliath, you know, guilty when he, I mean, was David guilty when he killed Goliath? Is that because, you know, it's before he became a Calvinist or what, I mean, what are we supposed to think of this kind of stuff in scripture? It's so silly. And you mentioned the, you know, I've written this book on the American Revolution and it is so clear to me.

I mean, I didn't know this before I did the research and wrote. the book, the people on our side, especially George Washington and John Adams at the head of the pack, they cared desperately that we would be on God's side, that this was a sacred cause and the way we fight the war. And I write about this a lot in the book because I'd never known this before. They didn't just say, well, we need to win. They said, we need to un- honor God in how we fight. And the other side, the British, couldn't care less. They were not calling for days of prayer and fasting.

And they were just on a completely different page. They just wanted to crush the enemy, kind of like the Roman army or the Japanese in World War II. And, you know, the way they treated their prisoners, just abominable. But our side was desperately concerned with fighting in a way that would honor God to treat their prisoners in the way they were on. I mean, on and on and on and on. And there are people out there. I mean, there are some, I guess, you know, Catholic integralists. And there's some in the Protestant camp who act like our founding or the revolution.

We shouldn't have done that. And I've heard people even say this to me. And I think, wow, they have, you know, Pope Leo's view. Like they seem to want to live in this utopia that it's our job just to sit around while evil happens. Yeah. And of course, that's not true. talk to someone named Raymond Ibrahim, and he writes about the history of Islam and the conflict between Muslims and Christians. And he talks about how the Crusades, and there's a lot to

talk about when it comes to the Crusades, but how a huge contingency of those Christian soldiers believed that they were operating out of the Gapé love, unconditional, sacrificial love for the women and children in their society to defeat the barbarism of Islam. And I think, we forget that perspective when it comes to war, when it comes to defending what is good, right and true. Again, aside from the current conflict, but just throughout history, that it is actually a laying down of your life on behalf of what is righteous and what is innocent and what is defenseless and what is good, that many Christians have rightly been motivated to wage war throughout history. So I just, I do understand where this perspective is coming from, social justice perspective. Obviously, evangelicals have a problem with that. Catholics within church have a huge problem with social justice ideology and just progressivism in general. So in both camps, we've got some work to do.

Well, we've just got about a minute left. I want to ask you about how you, this just makes me, you know, want to twirl for joy that you triggered Hillary Clinton with your book on toxic empathy. Can you give my audience that weren't tuned into that, like a short version of what happened? Yeah, I wrote this book, Toxic Empathy that came out in October 2024. And two months ago, Hillary Clinton, I guess she caught wind of it. And she decided to write an op-ed in the Atlantic talking about how dangerous it is. She positioned herself. This was the interesting and scary part throughout the op-ed is the authority on Christian morality.

She would say things like true Christians like me, real Christians like me, in comparison to people like you and me, Eric, and your audience, who apparently are just fake Christians. I had no idea. If I were no Christians, I would have at least tried to murder Vince Foster. I mean, you know, that's just the way it breaks down. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you.

We can all do better. We can all do better. Right. We should all be listening to Hillary. What point or why does it matter at this point, Benghazi Clinton, when it comes to Christian morality. So, yeah, it was a crazy experience. well this is something that i didn't know your book has been out that long that's amazing uh i i guess

just because it's been in the news and i'm glad but i mean just the concept of toxic empathy it is such this is kind of i guess tom holland uh in his book on the christian faith uh the the title of dominion he talks about this at the end of the book how christianity has within it the seeds of you know where you can you can take we can make an idol of any good thing and empathy of course of a good thing but then you make an idol of it and you become one of these screeching carons in minnesota uh you know yelling at the ice people or whatever you're just completely unhinged from reality i'm so annoyed that we're out of time ali best ducky just a great joy to see what you're doing out there god bless you thanks for coming on today

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