The Eric Metaxas Show - #88 - Kathie Lee Gifford

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, Eric talks with Kathie Lee Gifford about faith in the entertainment world, Billy Graham’s advice, her Jewish roots, and her new book on Nero and Paul. They explore the darkness of Rome, the power of the gospel, and why Paul’s message of grace outlasted the ruler who tried to crush it. Subscribe for clips from The Eric Metaxas Show to hear politics and culture from a Christian perspective.

After 19 years, they're back. Frankie Munes, Brian Cranston, and the rest of the family reunite in Malcolm in the middle, life's still unfair. After 10 years avoiding them, how and lowest demand Malcolm be at their anniversary party, pulling him straight back into their chaos. Malcolm in the middle, life's still unfair. A special four-part event, streaming April 10th on Hulu on Disney Plus. Folks, welcome back. I have the joy and privilege of having as my guest, none other than Kathy Lee.

Gifford, Kathy Lee, welcome back. Thank you, hon. How are you? You make me smile. I know you don't try because you don't care. You have no one to impress. But I just, I like you. I like kidding around with you. I also like talking about serious stuff with you. I just saw you recently at the Judeo-Christian Zionist Congress,

because you and I take the issue of Israel and the Jewish people very seriously. And you, of course, yourself. are ethnically Jewish and a believer in Yeshua. Yeah, that makes me belong, doesn't it? Yes. Well, you don't need to be grafted in, but, you know. Yeah. Well, my mother was, she was a beautiful,

Shiksa woman, blonde hair, blue eyes, and came to know and love Messiah Yeshua with all her heart. And so did my daddy. I didn't realize yet too much later in life. that when he was eight years old, his mother had told the kids on a summer day to get out of the house and get it, couldn't make a noise and go down to that little,

it was a little black church, African American church. And she said, they have that vacation Bible school down there. Now don't you come back till it's dinner time? She was just done with the, you know. And he asked Jesus into his heart when he was eight years old. He didn't tell any of us that for the longest time.

so interesting that a, you know, a little, well, he didn't, we didn't, they didn't practice Judaism. His father was a terrible father and left the whole family very early, left her with five children, you know. But ironically, it took care of all the, all the African American people around the town that were, or anybody that was on the, on the Bowery, you know, oh, that kind of thing. The down and out people, back then there were, you know, well, there's still is, but in Annapolis, Maryland there were quite a few. And he would go down there and when he wasn't himself, take care of people. But it didn't take care of. Unbelievable. I never know what's going to come out of you.

I had no idea of that story. And as usual, you crack me up when you're not trying to. Just using the word shiksa. You know the last person who used the word shixa on this program? No. Nobody. It's just so great. It's just so great.

It's descriptive, you know. Well, most of my audience, I'm assuming they don't know what that even means. That would be a Gentile woman, a beautiful. A Gentile woman is a Shiksa, and you don't want to marry a Shiksa. My daddy wanted to marry her. Oh, from Unity Star. Yeah. Yeah, that was a real love affair.

I was grateful to be able to watch and model that kind of love, you know. So we were a family that didn't practice any particular religion, but we honored God, Jehovah God, the creator of the world. So I grew up with that. And I grew up, as a little girl, I remember having a dream of looking up in the sky, and there was Jesus sitting on a cloud, sitting with his legs crossed and making a fire. And I was raking leaves with my daddy, and I just looked up, And I went, oh, Jesus.

And he looked down at me and smiled and said, Kathy. That was it. How old were you? Eight. I don't, I'm sure I haven't heard that story. That's extraordinary. What a gift to have that happen. That was why I got kicked out of the brownies.

So. But before I got kicked out of Sunday school. Unbelievable. True stories, true. Now, before we talk about your. book, I just have to ask you because you were in, you know, the Hollywood world show business TV for so long. And it's typically such a secular world. But what I really have always loved about you is how open you were, how unashamed you were of your faith. And sometimes that was difficult,

you know, for you because you had people mocking you. But I think it's very important that people who are in the media are open about that. And you really never shied away from that. Not at all. In fact, I made a concerted effort. I prayed long and hard about what I should do with my life, but I knew I was supposed to be in entertainment world. And I prayed about it. I said, Lord, just show me, guide me, lead me. And I knew that I should never, ever separate the secular from the spiritual in my life. I'm the same person. If I do your show or if I'm on a radio someplace or on top of a mountain directing something or on a Broadway stage, My mission field was that, the entertainment world. In fact, when I met Billy Graham when I was in my early 20s, he said, Kathy, I think you're going to have a huge career in the entertainment world. And I hadn't done a thing hardly at all except some, I don't know, not much. And a friend introduced me to him in Washington, D.C., and I was thrilled to meet him.

And he was such a lovely man, and we remained really close friends until the day he died. I was so honored to have him and he said to me early on When West Jet first took flight in 1996 The vibes were a bit different People thought denim on denim was peak fashion Inline skates were everywhere And two out of three women rocked the Rachel

While those things stayed in the 90s One thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get When West Jet welcomes you on board Here's to West Jetting since 96 Travel back in time with us And actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years If you want some advice

And I said, from Billy Graham, sure. You know, he said, the only thing I really regret is the time that I left what I knew my purpose was, which was to tell people just as you are, come, come, you know, that a famous song that he always played. George Beverly Shea would sing at the end. And just come to Jesus. And he said, the couple of times that I got involved with politics, he said, I regretted it. You immediately lose half your audience. And he said, I learned from that.

And God's going to use you mightily in the entertainment field. And millions of people will hear the gospel because he's giving us you such a boldness. So it's never been hard for me to share my faith. I look forward to the moments when the Lord reveals now. Now you share it. There's your lead. There's, there's, you know, and I never proselytize to people, but I share it. And I'm always joyful to.

because I can't tell how many people. There was a big event last night, about 300 people for my book. And so many of them just said, years ago, I started watching you, and you were the only one on TV that talked about your faith. And I said, that's why the Lord put me there. Amen. A dear friend who said, I don't want to be famous. I could never be, you know, he sees what goes on in my life.

And I said, I didn't want to be famous. My daddy said, find something you love to do and then figure out a way to get paid for it. I wanted to be an actress and a singer and a writer and all the on to put on shows. And I said, I never dreamed ever that I would become like a household name, infamous and famous, you know. Now, obviously I want to talk to you about your book, but I just ask you one more showbiz question since you reminded me of something. Who did you ever meet from, you know, when you were working early in the business, a star, from another era. I mean, I had the privilege

I remember of meeting Mickey Rooney and just being over the moon that I'm talking to Mickey Rooney who was a star in the 30s. Yeah, and Judy Garland. Let's put on a show.

Yep. Let's put on a show. Yeah, who from that era did you ever meet big stars from that era? Well, when I did Good Morning America, the first person I interviewed

was Paul Newman. and then we became friends and I helped him with his camp and I just had and then also Audrey Hepburn and when I was with Regis early early on and what I admired so much about the two of them

is first of all I love their body of work you call it you know everything they did was with such excellence and was memorable and then what I loved was that they were beautiful people personally treated everybody with with respect.

And then there, the two people I remember the most that were well known and established who used their notoriety, their celebrity, their fame to help other people. You know, they got out of themselves, the ego-driven. And that's a lot about what our book is about. Nero wanted to be a singer. Can you imagine? Nero used to put people in an audience and sing for hours and play his little. didn't do the fiddle. That was not true. Nero didn't fiddle while Rome burned. It had not been

designed then, that kind of instrumentation. But anyway, I remember thinking, I have so much respect for these people, the work they do. But then it's deeper than that. I love the sentiment that drives them that because they are so blessed, they need, they are, well, the Bible says, you know, to who much is given much is required, right? They knew that they were going to use their position to change the world for people that couldn't change their own. Just the other night, I was watching The Hustler with Paul Newman. Oh, my goodness. Everything he did, such charm, such intelligence and fun.

He was a lot of fun to be around. And I don't know how much time we have for our whole interview, but usually you're very gracious. And one night I went to a fundraiser near our homes in Greenwich, Connecticut. And I heard Russell and somebody came through the door and I turned and looked and it was Paul and his white Joe am. And I said, oh, there's Paul. I get to see. I'll see him later because a bunch of people were around him. Everybody wants to be around Paul Newman, right?

So I want to do a different room and I'm standing there and I feel this on my back. and I turn around and it's Paul and it gets down on one knee and takes both of my hands in his and looks up at me with those eyes and goes, hi, Kathy, how are you, honey? And I went, my son, Paul, I haven't seen you in so long. How are you? He goes, I was, he was 80 something. Well, I'm 80 something like that. So I still got a pulse. I've still got a pulse. And that really touched me because I actually use that all through my Broadway musical. If I have a pulse, I have a purpose. If I wake up every morning and metaphorically or physically,

and you've got a pulse, you're still here, that's not finished with us yet. And we may feel like he is. I have had four operations, serious ones in the last year, in four and one year. And I've had perfect health. It's just that my body is wearing down from the kind of life I've lived on mountains and thwarting every stream and, you know, never in stiletto heels, baby.

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families can consider now. I encourage you to read it and decide for yourself. Please go to Metaxusgoldir.com. That's metaxusgoldir.com. You don't need to panic, but you do need to be informed in times like these. Wisdom matters more than optimism. Obviously, I want to talk to you, and I have time, but you've written a book. This is really, I love, obviously, history because I've written so many history books myself. But the story of Nero and Paul, so the title of the book,

folks is Nero and Paul how the Gospel of Grace defeated the ruler of Rome. You've co-authored it with Brian Litvin. What led you, Kathy Lee, to write this book? Because this is a serious subject. You know, when you take up a Bonhoffer, you take up all the ones that you've written just brilliantly, nobody writes those kinds of books like you do. I've always told you that. Your scholarship and your dedication to excellence always put accuracy.

You know, it's just so I don't want to lose my credibility at this point in my life. You know, people, this is my 37th book. People buy them because they know I'm going to deliver what I say. I'm going to, listen, I'm going to do my best to deliver it to them. So my son, who has got his master's degree at Oxford University, and he got it in screenwriting and all of that sort of stuff. And he said, when I came back from my first rabbinical church, not a church, sorry, I've been selling this book for weeks now, forgive me.

When I came back to America from the Holy Land, after my first rabbinical trip, going there to study what the Greek and the Hebrew actually mean in the original source, and I changed my life. I had read the Bible for 11 years in a row. You know that Bible in a year thing? 11 years I did that straight. And I was so bored afterwards. I said, Lord, not only am I not learning anything new. I'm starting to feel like so much of what I am learning here.

I don't believe it. I don't believe it's true. And that's went back all the way to when I was 10 years old. and got kicked out of Sunday school because the teacher was talking about, you know, that the story when Jesus cursed the fig tree. And I said, teacher, teacher, I'm sorry,

I don't believe that. She goes, what do you mean you don't believe it? I just read it to you. It's in the Bible. I said, I know, but my Jesus would never curse something he created. My Jesus loves me and you. He loves everything he's created. I said, I know it's there,

but I don't think that's what it means. And she asked me, my parents to please, you know, have me not upsetting her class anymore in coming in and asking things like that. Years later, I'm on another rabbinical trip and we're at the same spot. It's that road in between the two garden of Gassimedes, you know, the little road that Jesus entered the city in on the cult on Palm Sunday. It's the main little road back then, of course, and still there. I'm so glad it's still there. From the Mount of Olives all the way down to the Kidren Valley and then over to the temple.

So that day, we were going to be studying the story of Jesus cursing the fig tree. And I'm going, uh-oh, giddy up, giddy up. Well, what you learn when you studied the way I was studying at that time, you learn the geopolitical and cultural aspects of the stories that are being told. I'm dying to hear this because I do believe the story, but I don't know any context. So go. Because Bible, really, that we all. read is black and white. There's no room for details. All these epic stories, they're black and white.

But when you study this way, and when I explain what it means, you're going to go, oh, but it just becomes technicolor. It goes from black and white to technicolor with Dolby Sound. And I'm a filmmaker. I like technical and Dolby Sound. I like the theatrical and the cinematic stuff. And so what happened is he said the teacher was saying, and he was a rabbi. He said, he said, saying back in Jesus' day, there was no buildable wood. Everything was a desert. Everything that is still in ruins is rock and stone. Jesus was not a carpenter. That's the first thing I learned that I was wrong about. The word in the New Testament is tecton, T-E-K-T-O-N. It means, it means, oh gosh, builder. Builder, yes, builder. But it also means architect. So we know Jesus was part of the architect of creation,

along with his father and the Holy Spirit. But the word builder, when it was translated by King James, and these guys had never been to Israel. They'd never been to Israel. They didn't know that there was no buildable wood. So they said, oh, he was a carpenter like us. No. You know, that's so interesting.

I've never thought of it that way that, yes, you're in England. It's, you know, 1595. What do you know about the Holy Land? Nothing. In the first century A.D. Nothing, nothing. So what we found out was, but at the time, no buildable wood, but they had like big bushes that they called trees, like the balsam and the olive and the sycamore fig. Well, these things came to represent something symbolically in Jewish life.

Most of the main, we don't have to go into all of them, but I was about to find out what the fig tree was symbolic of. Because we know that the olive trees has always symbolized the Jewish people, always. So it starts to say that when Jesus cursed the fig tree, he was the fig tree represented to everybody that was following him, especially these people, the Sadducees and the Pharisees. And he was cursing them for not. I've never heard this. Never. I have to have Kathy Lee Gifford on my program to get good Bible teaching. I can't believe that I've never heard.

that, Kathy Lee. And then I went, see, I knew it didn't mean that. He was that the Pharisees and the Sadducees were not feeding his people. They were starving them of truth. They were walking around of their whitewashed robes. Deep inside, they were what? You know, dead man's bones. And he called him, woe do you hypocrites. Well, the word from hypocrite in the Greek is actors. They were born around acting like all these, you know, this religious great leaders. And Jesus hated that. That's when he got so angry that he went over into the Kidron Valley up to the temple. And that's when he took the, made the whip and threw the money changers tables over. My Jesus would never do that, Kathy Lee. I don't believe you.

Well, he didn't do it to the money changers, just the table with all the money and said, you have made my father's house, a house of prayer, who had done a thieves, basically. And that's when we think, not, could be, this is a could be one, that's when they were so mad because they were trying to get Jesus in a gotcha moment and trying to get him to say something that would be blasphemous or do something, well, he said it all,

everything to them was blasphemous, because they didn't understand what the word of God actually meant or represented. So anyway, that's when they went to Caiaphas and said, we're losing the people. We're losing the people. They're not going to pay their taxes. They're not going to bring their ties

and their gifts and all of that. And our life, our temple-based life, is really threatened now. And that's when they made the deal with Judas. It's chilling. I mean, your book, again, is called Nero and Paul, how the Gospel of Grace defeated the ruler of Rome. but just even talking about, thinking about Nero is chilling,

the evil of some of these figures, just so dark and so awful. Tell us a little bit, I mean, for folks listening, you don't know anything about Nero and Paul and how you came to write the book. Tell us a little bit of just the background. Yes, all these Caesars, and my first rabbinical trick by was fascinated by Herod.

I only knew the nativity story. When I studied the vastness of his life and how he was in bed with Julius Caesar, and then everything was not literally. Well, Cleopatra came on to him. He's probably the only man who didn't sleep with Cleopatra. She was the great seductress of her day, but he didn't want Mark Antony to murder him, you know. So he said, no thank you to her. And then slept with everybody else and died with his groin, like,

charcoal. This is a family program. We're going to have to edit that out. Okay. I won't describe it. Natalie always works blue. She can't help it. You know what?

I just, yeah, the evil, but they don't start out evil. No. Babies come straight from heaven. They're perfect. And then the world and the tentacles. And that's the main thing about our book is how the, first of all, a lot of it is Agrippina, Nero's mother, was very, very. very, very, all she wanted, she had a lust for total power.

And, of course, women only had so much power at the time. And but she married and kept marrying and marrying and she was seductors in her own way. And she ended up, by golly, she was going to have a baby and he was going to become Caesar. And now, our book opens with him, Nero sitting there after just murdering his mother. And she's laying there on a slab covered with a white cloth. murdering his mother Yep Yep

See we've frown on that In my family We just don't like that Yes my sons wanted to Murder me a few people But my daughter He murdered his mother His mother

He murdered her The book is full of all the reasons why But he's sitting there He's wondering Should I even take the cloth off And see her naked body Which he had just Yeah

He It had been prepared I guess for some some kind of burial. I'm trying to remember. It's been a year since we wrote, two years since we wrote the book. Then it takes a year to come out.

You know what it's like. Anyway, he had seen her naked body. He had slept with his mother for years. Hold on a second. We're going to edit this out. No, we're not going to hurt us out. I'm just teasing you.

But listen, this is what, I mean, when I say evil, it's so horrifying. It's horrifying. These figures, how lost you can be. So if you don't mind my asking, because it's so crazy. How is it that he slept with his own mother?

Like, that's just beyond, beyond. Well, we go into it because when you're sleeping with pretty much everybody and you're murdering your own children, it's the lust for power. And nothing's changed, really. It's all over the world still. The serpent was in the Garden of Eden. Evil has been with us forever. But the presence of God has always been greater than any evil.

So he just got more evil all the time. His ego was crazy. He wanted everybody to listen to. to him sing and he was not a great singer, but he sees her. They have to. That's the biggest crime of all. Yeah. He was a bad singer and he forced people to listen.

It's just, yeah. I mean, that was not a bad thing. It was just typical of the lust, the ego that he had for applause, for applause. And, you know, you have to make people applaud for you. It's not the kind of applause you actually treasure, right? But anyway, he was more and more wanting that kind of egotistical feedback from everybody. And then, of course, the sex was, you just didn't say no to a Caesar, whether you were all kinds of sex and animals and anything like that.

And the more that you feed that kind of lust, the more you look for more of it. It's just, you know, it's just typical. And so that's what happened to him. And then all of a sudden, you know, you don't know this, and I didn't know this before we started writing this book. you know about the apostolic period Jesus' followers were called Followers of the Way

and his kids had his disciples All the story is Jewish from the beginning You know That's a truth that a lot of people don't like to even contemplate That it's a Jewish story Jesus was Jewish Mary was Jewish

Oh in case anybody didn't know We should let them know Kathy Jesus ladies and gentlemen We're pretty sure Jesus was a Jew Mary, some people think she's Italian, I'm pretty sure she was also Jewish.

So we just need to get that out of the way. Paul, definitely Jewish. Yes, and he had the different kind of lust. He had a lust for, he had a zeal for, for the law, mosaic law. So he thought would be. Before his conversion, he was a legalist and a monster. And wanted to be, he wanted to be the new Cuythus.

He wanted to be in the Sanhedron. He had his own lust for power in his own world. So that's why we chose these two men to show the contrast between the same thing. He thought he was doing righteousness when he was murdering these followers of the Yeshua Messiah. But a lot of people don't understand. And I didn't either. That's why I study the way I do. I'm not a biblical scholar at all.

I just study with the best in the world. And I love to share it with people after I learn it. But what happened is after Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven, that began the apostolic period. And that's when people were going out and sharing the good news, which the gospel means good news of the message of Yeshua for salvation for all. Therefore, the Gentiles were coming to faith, right? Now, so they were, they stopped calling them the followers. They were followers of the way initially. But then, Nero, they became a problem too.

Same thing. There were too many people were following Yeshua. Even though he was dead and gone, they thought, no, his, and it was getting to be a huge problem. So Nero is the one who said, we have a problem with these little Christians. because Christ in Greek means Messiah. And that's when the followers of Jesus for the first time started being called Christians. I want to talk to you for days.

I know we're at a time. The book is Nero and Paul, how the Gospel of Grace defeated the ruler of Rome. Kathleen would give her one final question is simply yes or no. Did you ever meet Charles Nelson Riley? Yes. I loved him.

I loved him. He was so funny Somehow I knew this I was going to wear an ascot Today in his honor But I didn't know how you'd answer that question Yes I just love talking to you

About everything about the scripture About showbiz Thanks for doing what you do God bless you And congratulations on the new book Nero and Paul Thanks so good to see you my friend Shalom Shalom Shalom

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