The Eric Metaxas Show - #96 - Joe Loconte

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

Today On The Eric Metaxas Show, Eric talks with Joe Loconte about his new Benjamin Rush documentary, the Christian roots of the American founding, the myth that the Revolution was merely secular and Enlightenment driven, and why figures like Rush, John Adams, and George Washington understood liberty through a biblical lens. They also dig into slavery, religious liberty, Protestant influence, and how modern historians keep getting America’s founding story wrong. Subscribe for clips from The Eric Metaxas Show to hear politics and culture from a Christian perspective.

Hey there, folks. If you know this program, you know that I'm friends with a guy who goes by the name of Dr. Joseph LaCante. And we've had him on many times. And it's always a joy to have him on as it is right now. Joe LaCante, welcome back. Thank you, Eric. Great to be back. I also go by the name of Joe. Joe is just fine. Yeah. You sometimes go by Joe, but not Joey. Not Joe. Just Joe. Just Joe. My dad used to call me Joe. My dad used to call me Joe. Joe Pepp because the Italian name for Joseph is Giuseppe and short for Giuseppe is peppy. So I might be known as Joe Pep around the house. Joe Pep.

Joe Peppetone. Joe Pepetone. Joe Pepetone. Did a lot of cocaine back in the day. We're not going there. We're not going back there. No, no, no. I had a Joe Pepitone baseball glove in the 70s.

Oh, gosh. Well, all right. Listen, this is the problem. When people are my friends, I forget how distinguished they are. I have to tell my audience who this really is. Folks, Joe Laconte, Dr. Joseph Lecante, is director of the Rivenell Center in New York City, serves as presidential scholar at New College of Florida and the CS-Lewis Scholar for Public Life at Grove City College, New York Times bestselling author of many books.

I've had him on the program in times. He's been on Socrates in the city. But Joe, you and I right now are working on something very similar. You have made this documentary. I want you to tell my audience about it. All about Dr. Benjamin Rush, one of the great heroes of the American Revolution. I don't deal with Rush very much in my book.

I mention him here and there and the quotes, but you tell the story. So let's start at the beginning. What is this documentary? What led you to make a documentary about Benjamin Rush? Yes, I think like you, Eric, we wanted to contribute to this cultural moment of honoring America's 250th.

you and I both aware that a lot of people are going to get it wrong and we wanted to try to get it right. I came across a biography of Dr. Benjamin Rush and I realized this founder is among the most extraordinary of American founders and most Americans have never heard of him. Because think about, in summary, he signs the Declaration of Independence. He's the chief surgeon in Washington's Continental Army. He is a pioneer in the field of psychiatry. he's an abolitionist and he's a man of Christian faith he's just a remarkable character he knows everybody he's the ultimate insider in the revolutionary era

well I mean that's why I quote him quite a bit in my book I don't really get into him very much but he knew everyone he was close to everyone and I think you understated his you know as you say he's a Christian many of them most of them were Christians he was a particularly serious devout Christian. He was famous for his Christian faith. He was a great man of Christian faith. And I think that's one of the reasons that history pushes them away because you've got all these Enlightenment people that

they kind of like, it makes them uncomfortable. They'd rather talk about Jefferson or somebody. They don't like these outspoken Christians. And of course, it's the, well, it's the unstated thesis of my book that without these Christians, you got nothing. You're not going to have a revolution, but he to me is at the center of it. So how did you discover Dr. Benjamin Rush? What was the first way in for you that you said, I think I want to talk about him. I want to make a documentary about him. Yeah, I think it was coming across a couple of different biographies and realizing that there's gold here with Benjamin Rush. And to your point, the historiography, the modern historians, the 20th century historians, they love to gravitate toward a Jeff

or Franklin because they're perceived as very secular, very enlightened, guys. Why focus on Benjamin Rush, a leader in the American Bible Society, for example, a founder of the Sunday School movement? He just raises too many uncomfortable questions, I think, for the militantly secular historians in our ranks. But you really can't tell the story of the American Revolution, as you know, without telling the story of Christianity, because these different streams are so interconnected evangelical Christianity, republicanism, right? Separation of powers, religious liberty. These streams are all coming together in the American founding, aren't they, Eric? Well, you know, you and I have talked about this. It is, to my mind, astonishing how clear this is.

This is not some interpretation. It's just clear. But there are people that are uncomfortable with it, the secularists, the leftists, they're very uncomfortable with this. And a lot of conservative secularists that they pretend like, I can ignore this. It was all about the Enlightenment or Montesquieu or whatever. They just, they don't, it just makes them uncomfortable. And so it's by omission they kind of ignore this stuff. And they push anybody that's perceived as being a deist or whatever.

I mean, the way they pushed Thomas Jefferson, I am amazed, Joe, at they practically make it sound like he wrote the Declaration of Independence. in the sense that he came up with it. And I think he came up with nothing. He wrote it. You know, it's like somebody says, I got all these ideas and I tick off the ideas and he said, can you put them on a piece of paper?

It's like, got it. And then, you know, you write up what you just heard. He didn't come up with any of this stuff himself. None of it. None of it. But they act like, like nobody really knew what they believed. And they turned to Jefferson. and Jefferson kind of came up with these great ideas.

We owe these truths to be self-evident. I mean, that wasn't even his phrase. That was Ben Franklin's phrase. And I feel like that's part of the subtext of the history, the revolution, is how historians have really pushed this enlightenment idea to the exclusion of the faith idea. And so that's one of the reasons that I want to know about Benjamin Rush. Now, before we get into the subject of Benjamin Rush, where does this documentary exist?

How can people see it? Yes, thank you for asking, my friend. We just did a film screening at the Tribeca Film Center here last week, which was terrific. We have as a one hour now film. It also exists on my YouTube channel in four different episodes. So we are negotiating with distributors right now where people can see the one hour, you know, uninterrupted, ready to go. That's in negotiations now, but you can see it in four parts on my YouTube channel.

people can watch it on Joe LaCante's YouTube channel. Fantastic. I got to put that up on X or whatever because this is just so important. It's so important. But Joe, tell us the story then, if you would, about Dr. Benjamin Rush, where was he born? What happened? Yeah. I want to reinforce your earlier point as we get into here, my friend, the secular narrative

is that America came to its senses, had it. revolution, declared all these natural rights, freedom, etc. Because it became less and less religious. It was these secular enlightenment guys. You really gave us all these wonderful ideas. And that narrative was completely false. And Benjamin Rush really embodies the truth of the thing. Because in Benjamin Rush, you have this, yes, he's a man of science.

He's an enlightenment guy in the American sense, which means absolutely friendly to historic Christianity. so he's a thinker, but he's also rooted in the scriptures. Deeply rooted in the scriptures, go. What we're really talking about, the lie that's been pushed, is that you have to choose between faith and reason. That is a vile lie from the pit of hell. I know you're not going to say that.

You're Dr. Joseph Lekonte, but I will say that. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a vile lie from the pit of hell, that you have to choose between faith and reason. That is a lie. faith points you to reason reason points you to faith so this idea that i've got to pick one is complete nonsense yes and in my research for my book i mean the enlightenment sharpened the theology of the christians in america it forced them to to clarify where they were coming from and leads to religious liberty yes i mean it's kind of interesting so the enlightenment critique of religion forced um

American Christians to to really in a way double down on what is this faith. And at the heart, when you squeeze the Christian faith, religious liberty comes out of it. It's an amazing paradox. It's beautiful. And it's so misunderstood. So that's why it just throws me, you know, that you're on this page that you get this. And we have to re-educate, you know, Americans say, hey, folks, don't, don't be fooling. the faith is not at odds with reason.

It really is something that it's going to take some time to re-educate people about what really happened. The person of Benjamin Rush helps us do that. So, yes, start on, you know, where did he grow? I guess he grew up in Boston. No, he's a native Philadelphian, a native Philadelphian. He goes off to medical school in Scotland, but he is a local Philadelphia. guy. He will study for a while at the College of New Jersey, now Princeton. He'll have some interactions with the Reverend John Witherspoon as well, but he is a native Philadelphia, and he's

deeply embedded in that community, my friend. And I think again, back to Rush and his, how he embodies the truths you just expressed. Reason, revelation, give us the American Revolution. That in my mind is kind of a conceptual trinity, if you will, reason, revelation, revolution. So what do you have with Rush. Yes, he's a surgeon in Washington's Continental Army, and he's deeply concerned about how the soldiers are conducting themselves, how they're being treated, the state of the military hospitals, and he will write a manual, a really important manual for physicians and for politicians. Here's how we need to raise the standard of health in the military hospitals, and they're in the field, and Washington will take many of his recommendations. We can only guess at how many soldiers

live to fight another day because of Benjamin Rush's recommendations, particularly there at Valley Forge. Actually, when I did my research on Valley Forge, I was astonished at how many men died. They just died, folks. They weren't killed. They just died with disease. We're going to come right back talking to Zolacanti about Benjamin Rush.

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Welcome back talking to Joe LeConte, Dr. Joseph P. LeConte to you. But I get to call him Joe. Joe, we're talking about your documentary on Benjamin Rush. And this is important in this 250th, it's supercentennial year. In case anybody wants to know, the official term is the supercentennial. It's America's supercentennial. But this is actually very, very important work that you're doing in telling the story of Benjamin Rush to correct some of the mistakes that have lingered for decades in American higher education and in the culture at large about the role of faith. You were just talking about what a man of science, Benjamin Rush was, that he was the lead surgeon of the Continental Army.

I got confused about Boston for a second because he was so close to John Adams. John Adams, right. That for a second, but I mean, he really was, he was the best of the Christians of that era because he did embody science and, and again, that lie that we have to choose. Yes. We've really got to undo that. We've got to work against that. Excellent points, Eric.

I didn't mean to interrupt you, friend. I think it's hard to imagine an American founder who was more consistent in applying the principles of the Declaration and the Constitution in every realm of human endeavor that he entered. So I'll give you an example. He gets to the Pennsylvania Hospital there where he's, it's a huge part of his career, his work there as a surgeon at the hospital.

He arrives, he sees the mentally ill chained in the basement, treated like animals, like they're in a cell. And he immediately decides, we need more humane treatment, off with the chains, and figure out how to connect with these people and treat them humanely. And as a result, Dr. Rush will be known as the father of modern psychiatry in the Pennsylvania

hospital to this day has that reputation as being a pioneer in this humane treatment of the mentally ill. That's out of his Christian convictions. That's not contrary to. It's a result of his Christian conviction. That's just one example we can talk about more. It's funny. In my research on when John Adams goes in 1775,

to Philadelphia for the first time. He talks about getting a tour of a hospital and of the underground cells of the lunatics. That's it. And when I read that, it chilled me. I thought, what were troubled people treated like in 1774? And so you're telling us that thanks to Benjamin Rush, that's right.

They were treated more humanely. It's just beautiful. I did not know that. It's one example. I think the principle, that guides his life, Eric, and it comes out in my documentary film. It's the principle of the golden rule. Treat others as you want to be treated. And he applies that rule to his civic and political life in profoundly important ways. The other obvious example is he's an abolitionist. And he's an abolitionist

when it's not a comfortable thing to do in Philadelphia where something like a third of all the households in Philadelphia, they have slaves. And some of his good friends, friends, Benjamin Franklin, for example, are slave owners. So he's writing tracks denouncing slavery in the harshest terms in like 1773, 74, even before the revolution. And he's calling out the Christian ministers in Philadelphia for justifying slavery. It's an amazing, bold and courageous step, and it's not going to help him in terms of his business, his social status. But again, he's arguing from the scriptures as well. It's coming out of a deep Christian conviction and he's calling people to account. Pretty impressive stuff. Well, I was going to say that's something that I noticed,

too. I don't really say much about it in my book, but how the devout Christians were really strongly, openly, explicitly against slavery. I mean, you see it, especially among the Boston Puritans, you know, James Otis Jr., John and Abigail Adams, and on and on. They, really railed against it. Samuel Adams was given on his, for his wedding, someone gave him a female slave for him and his wife. And he made it real clear, I will not live with someone enslaved under my roof. And they freed her. And so I think she stayed on as a servant. But it's so interesting, because that story is not enough told how the Christian voices spoke so strongly, very strongly. And James Otis Jr., not somebody that many people know his story, but I write about him a little bit.

But it really is interesting how little told that story is. And even those who were slave owners, how they, in the course of the revolution, were persuaded against it. Benjamin Franklin at the top of the list, fascinating. Yes, yes. Those who are slave owners, as you know, they all seem to have a guilty conscience about it. Or most of them had a guilty conscience about it. And what Rush understands early on in his initial tract against slavery is that the logic of the American Revolution, the logic is it's putting the institution of slavery on notice all over the world. Your days will be numbered.

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We're talking about Benjamin Rush, one of the great, great figures of the American Revolution. And you were just saying, Joe, how it became clear that, you know, when you say we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, there's a problem that many of them saw the handwriting on the wall that somehow we cannot say we believe in this if we don't deal with this. And it's, it is interesting how various of them dealt with it in their, in their different ways.

I mean, Benjamin Franklin becomes very, very outspokenly against abolition. Earlier in his life, he himself owned slaves. Yes. Yes. It's like follow the logic of the language of the declaration. Follow the logic. And that's precisely what Benjamin Rush does. And one remarkable act that he's involved in, I think it's one of the most remarkable

acts of racial reconciliation in the early American Republicans in 1793. Rush is part of a celebration because he's supporting the black churches, the independent black churches in Philadelphia. There's a roof raising. There's a celebration, a big picnic. Initially, the carpenters, the white guys, the white colonial guys, sit down at the table and they are served by the African Americans. And then they change places. The white guys get up from the table. The African Americans, 50 or so, sit down at the table and they are served by the white colonial guys who are helping to celebrate the church. Rush records this event in his journal.

It takes your breath away. It absolutely takes your breath away. The fact that that could happen in 1793 absolutely takes my breath away. I think you mentioned that on this program some months back. It's almost unbelievable that they could be that progressive in the positive sense at that time. Yes. that their Christian convictions were so strong. Now, you know, I know about William Wilberforce.

I mean, the evangelical Christians really got this. Yes, they did. Most other people didn't really get it. And it took time. But it was usually the outspoken evangelical Christians, we would call them. They wouldn't use that term. But folks like Benjamin Rush that really pushed the logic of it. I mentioned James Otis Jr., they understood.

this, that there's no way around this? How do you get around this? And it took time. And again, so many of the revolutionary leaders involved. I mean, George Washington evolved dramatically himself on this issue. Yes. And back to her early point here, Eric, this is not coming out of some cultural religious vacuum. These deep convictions about human equality and human freedom, that is rooted in the Anglo tradition, the Anglo-American tradition. We have to have a nod here to John Locke and his second treatise. What Locke does in the second treatise is to lay out a theological foundation for human equality and human freedom. And all those American revolutionary leaders, they have Locke's second treatise in their hands. They've read it. And some preachers are actually using it in place of sermons from the pulpit. A biblical basis for human equality and human freedom. The American Revolution is a Lockean revolution, meaning it is deeply rooted in a Christian. biblical understanding of the human person. That's a big deal. You've done a lot of work on John Locke. Tell us, tell my audience more about John. If somebody knows nothing about John Locke,

we'll talk about him because you've done a lot of work on him. Long story short, John Locke is this English philosopher in the 1670, 1680s, and he's up against this absolutism, political absolutism, religious absolutism, tyranny. They're joined at the hip. And part of Locke's solution is to write his two treatises of government. The second treatise in particular, where he's laying out the case for natural rights, universal human rights that come from the hand of God. And he's even quoting a bit from Ephesians 2, we are God's workmanship sent into the world about his business. We belong to him. And that language really resonates with the Americans a hundred years later. So Locke lays out the vision for human equality, human freedom,

in a really accessible way, natural law, but also the scriptures. And the Americans being so Protestant, so biblically literate, they run with it like no one else in the world is going to run with it. Well, it is interesting. You say so Protestant. I want to come back to that in our next segment because that's something that fascinated me about my, in my own research, the Protestant quality, particularly Protestant quality, whatever we mean by Protestant. have to get back to that. But it's also fascinating to me that this battle of ideas was going on in England before it comes here, before, you know, that some were going along with it. Some were buying this stuff. But it really was not settled in England. And I actually, Joe, I don't know

that it's settled today when we talk about this. We're going to go to a break. We'll be right back talking to Joe La Conte. I don't like alarmism. I don't like. fear-mongering. I especially don't like people who profit from panic. But I do believe in telling the truth, especially when the markets are reminding us how fragile things are. Over the last few weeks, we've all watched the volatility, stock swinging, confidence-shaking, long-estanding assumptions, suddenly looking less solid. Many economists are calling this moment the everything bubble, where nearly every asset class has been inflated at the same time by years of cheap money and global policy. This isn't political. It's not partisan. It's math. And when confidence erodes,

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Welcome back talking to Jolacante. He has a new documentary out on Benjamin Rush. You can see it his YouTube channel. Highly recommended folks. This is so important. So, Joe, I just was mentioning that it's fascinating. You know, when you talk about a figure like John Locke, this just fabled philosopher in England in the 1670, 1680s, he writes his two treatises.

And it's what's fascinating to me is how these things were not settled. in England. This battle of ideas was going on then. It goes on all through the 18th century. We turn these ideas into a country called the United States of America. We say we believe in religious liberty. We believe in free speech.

We believe in all these ideas. We turn these ideas, which are Christian ideas, into a nation. But they didn't do that over there. Not exactly. Yeah. You're right.

I didn't mean to wrap, Eric. No, no, no, I'm curious to your response to that because I'm, I really was fascinated at how, you know, you've got figures like, you know, Edmund Burke and William Pitt and others in England

who get this stuff. Yes. But they're sort of in the minority. They lose ultimately when, you know, arguing with the king and his government on these ideas. They sided with the colonists, but

so these ideas were working themselves out. Yeah. But they really never seem to get settled in England in the way that they got settled here. I mean, and to this day, I kind of, I just look in England today and I say, what do they believe over there? Do they believe in freedom of speech? It doesn't seem like it. They have real troubles. Yeah, they got real troubles over there.

The great breakthrough in Britain was in 1680, 1690, the glorious revolution. Now, why that's so important for the Americans is they reaffirm, constitutional government, constitutional Marniqui. They still have the king, but they're going to put limits on the king now. He's going to have to rule with parliament. He can't just dismiss parliament. So that's really important. So think about the Americans. They're claiming their rights as Englishmen. They're claiming Magna Carta. They're claiming the English bill of rights, which came out of that glorious revolution a hundred years before. But you're right. The Americans take those principles and we run with it. We give it a political form. We embody it.

in a constitution like no one else has done in the history of the world, right? That's impressive stuff. Well, that's, and I want to get back to the Protestant thing, but just to follow this, what amazed me was how King George III didn't get this, and he pushed against it. And we see this in our own government, the United States of America. Now, you can have an administration that seems to be pulling away from the Constitution. So this is constantly something that's in play. But it's fascinating to me how George III, largely due to corruption, he was able to just spend a ton of money to get people to vote his way and to say, listen, we're not going to follow the logic.

We're not going to follow our own logic, even though you have people like Burke and William Pitt pushing and others, Isaac Barry, whatever, that they see the Americans point of view and they see that it is fundamentally English. This is in our own constitution. This is something that we theoretically figured this out a while ago, you know, and we're not being true to it. And it really is clear that they weren't. I was fascinated actually, Joe, that I didn't know this, but that King George III, when we defeated Cornwallis at Yorktown, we meaning you and me, when we defeated Cornwallis.

The handwriting is on the wall. I'm using that phrase again, but everybody in England could see it's over. Lord North famously says it's over, it's over. King George III didn't think it was over. And he was so upset that Parliament wanted to say it's over and that we need to move on, we can't fight this revolution, we can't fight this war anymore, that he chose to abdicate.

Did you know that? I did not know that. I have to confess, no. I was so astonished. he wrote a letter of abdication because he refused to exceed to the will of parliament. And Lord North has to take him like a child and explain to him, excuse me, you know, according to our new constitution, according to gay, as king, you do need at this point to exceed to what parliament has chosen to do.

But he actually wrote out his abdication because his version of things says, you know what, if I cannot be, you know, if I can't do what I want to do, I need to, I need to leave. And Lord North is trying to explain him like, no, no, no, we need a monarch who is willing to follow our Constitution. Yes. But I was just astonished that he actually went to the trouble of writing out his abdication because of this class. Anyway. Yeah. Hence the problem with monarchies at the end of the day, right, Eric?

I mean, this is what makes the American Revolution so radical, right? We get rid of the king and we get rid of a national church at the same time. Two of the most stabilizing institutions in Europe for centuries and we get rid of them. Wow. Now how are you going to hold this? Go ahead, go ahead. Which brings us to, I have a whole chapter in my book about Tom, sorry, John Adams writes an essay in 1765 called a dissertation on the canon and feudal law. And I was bold over by this essay.

I think I mentioned it to you when we were together. And it brings us to this idea that at the heart of American liberty, at the heart of the principles that lead us to the revolution and that lead us to fight the revolution and to establish the government we have in our constitution, at the heart of it is Protestantism. It's really not escapable. And that that was a very strong thing at the time.

We've sort of lost sight of that. And this doesn't mean that we're anti-Catholic. I'm certainly not. But it needs to be dealt with that this was a reaction to the authoritarian canon law in the churches in Europe at the time. So talk about that because I know you know about this. Yes. And this is, again, Benjamin Rush is excellent on this point. What is distinctive of Protestant Christianity in the 18th century in colonial America?

Well, a number of things we could say. certainly the supremacy of the Bible as the highest authority and freedom of conscience in the pursuit of truth conscience grounded in the word of God not free floating conscience rooted in the word of God in the pursuit of truth that's a Protestant distinctive and you know it's it's regretful to say that the Catholics are just not there in the 18th century at all they don't represent that viewpoint but that viewpoint is so important to the American Revolution isn't it because it emphasizes the importance of the individual, human agency, moral agency, and human freedom.

Well, it's interesting to me because you, you know, I think that, you know, when John F. Kennedy was running for president, there were many American Protestants who were worried, who thought, how is this going to work? Isn't his fidelity fundamentally to the Pope in Rome and not to the Constitution? And of course, there are some Catholics that would say, yes, it is. But there were other Catholics, I would say Kennedy was among them who didn't see it

that way, whose fidelity was to the Constitution. So it is interesting how, you know, you kind of say, well, then what is true Roman Catholicism? What is true? It's kind of like, you know, when I talk to certain cab drivers in New York who are Muslim, they're not radical Muslims. They identify as Muslims, but they believe in America. Right. So when did that happen? for the Catholics. It's an interesting conversation. It's a great question. And I think you could argue when it comes to religious liberty, freedom of conscience, we're all Protestants now. Come on in, the water's fine. But it really was that Protestant stream that established that political principle because of a respect for the nature of faith, the nature of the human person.

Faith has to be freely chosen. It can't be imposed by political or religious authorities. So Benjamin Rush is really important in this point, Eric, because when there's a debate going on among the Pennsylvania delegates, if you're going to approve the Constitution, do you have to swear to a religious oath? Affirm the Trinity, affirm the Bible, affirm Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Benjamin Rush believes all those things, but he says, no, can't have a religious test for office. Can't do it. He will lose the argument initially, but of course, that will be embedded in our Constitution. No religious test for public office. That, again, is a Protestant distinctive. No one else is thinking this way on the world scene. That's an incredible contribution, it seems to me, to liberal democracy. Well, I mean, I really couldn't agree more. And I was so amazed. I was even amazed in 1775 when George Washington sends Benedict Arnold through the woods of Maine to Canada,

because they were hoping to take Canada from the British. They were hoping to get Canada to join us in the rebellion. And he sends Benedict Arnold up there, and he strictly enjoins him in his orders that, yes, we have theological differences with them. In fact, it's interesting that Washington says, in effect, yes, they are wrong in their Catholic theology, but it is not our job to correct them,

to insult them. So he puts religious liberty above his theological beliefs. He doesn't say I have no theological beliefs. He has theological beliefs. This is talking about George Washington, but he puts religious liberty above that. When we come back, we're talking to Joe LaCante, new documentary on Benjamin Rush.

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Welcome back talking to Joe Laconte about many things, but centered around your new documentary on Benjamin Rush, which people can find out of your YouTube channel. What's the YouTube channel? Joseph Laconte, Joe Locante. Joe Loconte, J-O-E-L-O-C-O-C-O-N-T-E. Joe LaCante. So I was fascinated by, because there's this, it's not maybe a conundrum, but there's a paradox, right? That you're saying, and I'm saying that we believe that Christianity teaches X, and part of X is that we're not going to force everyone to believe in X.

Right. that what so so when when when when george washington sends benedict arnold up to canada he says yes the according to benjamin uh sorry according to uh Washington the the Canadians up there the Catholics they have there in some theological error but it is not our job to correct that error this is at the heart of the American revolution it's the heart of the of the creation of this nation is that we believe certain things um and there's certain things things we will insist on, but there are other things we won't insist on. We won't insist on everyone believing every little bit of theology that we do. I mean, that right there is, you talk about

something new in world history. That right there is an amazing, epical moment in world history. Yes, and it doesn't happen without Protestant Christianity, my friend, to your point. What the Protestants understand, go back to the scriptures, the scene there with Jesus and the rich young man who wants to justify himself, what must I do to be saved? And Jesus tells him, sell everything, and then come follow me. Come follow me. You know, we call that a call. He's called by Jesus. It doesn't get any more vivid than that. Come and follow me. What does the rich young man do? He goes away sad because he had great wealth. Jesus allows him to make that choice. The Protestant insight is that's the nature of faith because it's a relationship with a real person. The

God of heaven and earth, Jesus or Lord. That has to be freely chosen. The Protestants get that, unfortunately, long before the Catholics get that. But that is so crucial to understanding the American story, it seems to me, representing, respecting the nature of the human person made in God's image. And there are some Christians today, mostly Catholic, but some Protestant, who are going backwards on this. The Catholic integralists, I think John Zmirich has talked about Patrick Deneen and others who seem to believe that we need somehow to impose. Yeah. What do you call it?

I mean, of course, we impose a certain kind of morality. We have rules and things. But it's a little bit troubling. And this is there are some genuine Christian nationalists in the pejorative sense, not have a wholesome sense that I believe in my nation and I'm a Christian and I want to have an influence. But there are people that that seem to go a little bit farther than that. And I don't think they're going to have much success. But it is interesting that this battle for these ideas is ever new.

Yes, it's ever new. And, you know, John Adams and Benjamin Rush, they worried about the future of the Republic. Are we going to be, are we going to have the kind of civic character and virtue that's required to sustain the Republican? John Adams is very worried about it in his correspondence with Rush. And Rush responds in an essay. And he says this, we are neglecting the one thing that we need to ensure our Republican form of government, that is the teachings of Christianity by means of the Bible. He wants the Bible throughout public education, an educational system.

Now, we live in a different era, obviously, than Benjamin Rush, very religiously diverse and pluralistic. But we need to think seriously about what these guys are, what they're saying, what they're believing about the nation. of this Republican government, how do you get civic virtue? How do you get the kind of self-governing citizens that you need to sustain a republic? What do you think, Eric? Well, that's the, you know, this has obsessed me for a number of years. I mean, I sort of wrote a book about it called If You Can Keep It, where you realize that this is the paradox at the heart of liberty, which I learned from our friend Oz Guinness. If you don't believe certain things, liberty is going to go away, but you can't coerce those beliefs.

But it's interesting, Joe, that, you know, you say we're living in a different society, but you kind of wonder, are we being dishonest with ourselves about the idea that somehow it's wrong to want to teach the Bible in public schools? Why was it wrong then? In other words, I'd like to explore the limits of that in some way because, well, Well, not that I think that Bibles are going to be taught in public schools, but it is interesting that this stuff is, it's inescapable, that if you do not have people or at least enough people having a biblical faith and living out that faith, liberty goes away. And so it really is, it's almost impossible to figure out, but you've got to talk about it. We'll be right back talking to Joe LaCante.

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Welcome back talking to Joe Laconte. Joe, we've talked about so many different things, but tell us more about Benjamin Rush. I mean, one of the things that fascinated me is his love of Republican principles. And it's interesting how he and John Adams, who were buddies in Philadelphia during the Continental Congress, and they got some stuff wrong.

Like they were both bothered, deeply bothered, about the idea of a standing army saying this goes against Republican principles. It's got to be all on a volunteer basis. And we get where that comes from, right? That we want everything to be, you know, can't be coerced. But there's that fine line. And Washington's pushing. for standing army.

Yeah. I mean, Rush was, as I say, I mean, as much as I admire him, I feel like he kind of got this wrong in a way. Yeah. There were some things that he just dug in on

that he shouldn't have dug in on. One of them, we just have to mention his bloodletting. You know, it was a common practice. If a man is sick, draw out some blood. It's still in practice in the 18th century.

And Rush digs in on that. Because in some case, it seems to work. And even though there are competing theories, he holds them. line on that despite the fact he's a remarkable physician, incredibly compassionate and humane. Let me give me one quick example of how dedicated this guy is to his profession and to the people around him. When the yellow fever epidemic hits caused by mosquitoes in Philadelphia, 1793,

and people are, they are dropping by the bucket loads. They just dying one after another. They don't know how to treat it. Anybody with means, financial means, will get out of the city. Benjamin Rush stays at his post. He's bringing the sick into his own home, Eric. He's rising at dawn to treat anybody who calls on him. It's a remarkable commitment to his profession, to his neighbors. He puts his own life at risk. He gets deftly ill himself, survives, and of course gives the credit to the God of mercy. His journal is just filled with his gratitude to Jesus Christ and the Lord for rescuing from this great darkness, but he's commitment to the profession. It's so remarkable.

that's what that's what christian men and women do who are living out their faith isn't it right well it's amazing because he was the real deal and he is a hero have you thought about writing a short biography of him well you know i think there are good biographies that are out there stephen frees biography is really excellent single volume biography really well done which a great source for me i think that work's been done we were just excited to get this film out because honestly uh you know a Ben Burns 12-hour documentary. I haven't seen all of it. And despite good intentions and all kinds of budget and personnel and staff,

I worried that these guys were not going to get the basic story right. You know, so there we are. I have seen all 12 hours of the Ken Burns documentary. And let me tell you, not great. Not great at all. He makes the standard error. And again, you know, I just shake my head because I think Ken Burns is a a good guy. He's done some great work.

But it's fatiguing to see people pretend that the men of the revolution were all deists and the whole thing was an enlightenment. That's just complete nonsense. Yeah, it is nonsense. It's total nonsense. Yes, it is. But it's pushed by everybody, including by some good guys like Joseph Ellis, he says Washington was a deist.

He didn't believe. Joseph Ellis knows way more about Washington than I do, but he's getting that wrong. You know, they're certain they keep pushing it. And in the, I can't really recommend Ken Burns' Revolution Document. There's just so much in it. I mean, he spends half the time, you know, talking about the Lenape and the Iroquois. And he just goes on and on and on. It's politically correct to talk about the sadness of, you know, dog on it.

You know, a lot of these Native Americans sided with the British and they lost and, oh, it's so sad. And you think, well, okay. He's missing the story. He's missing the incredible story, which is you can hardly overstate the importance of biblical assumptions to the American Revolutionaries, the moral assumptions, the theological assumptions, human equality, human freedom. It's not a secular idea. It's a profoundly biblical idea. And these American revolutionaries are rooted in that great book. And honestly, he barely, barely touches on it.

In fact, he pushes against it. No, it is astonishing. It's an astonishing thing that you could do 12 hours on the revolution and miss this central fact. It's kind of funny. It's not like I planned my book as a corrective, but it ends up being without trying to be because my book is not about the faith of the founders. But it just by telling the story, you say, here it is. I mean, one of the classic cases is the story of Nathan Hale, one of the great Christian heroes kill the 21. But, I mean, what a hero he is.

he gets about 18 seconds in the 12-hour documentary. I mean, it's kind of scandalous. We're out of time. I'll be talking to you at Socrates in the studio. Folks, if you want more of this, tune into Socrates in the studio, plenty more with Joe LaCante. But Joe, for today, we'll leave it there.

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