The Eric Metaxas Show - Alec Klein

Episode Date: September 8, 2020

The utterly destructive nature of the "cancel culture" is addressed from personal experience when award-winning journalist Alec Klein joins the show to talk about his book, "Aftermath: When It Felt Like Life Was Over." (Encore Presentation)

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. Why don't you pull up a chair and settle while? Because a wizard fiction to learn your thing or two. If you can stand it. And it wouldn't hurt you nothing, neither. In fact is, some folks say Eric wouldn't know whether the scratchers watch or wind his buttocks. Won't say who, but they said it anyhow. He's dark tooting they did.

You'll come back now, you hear. Here's America's sweetheart himself, Eric Mataxis. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. It's a show. And typically I have on guests on a wide variety of subjects. Each subject is not itself wide. The subjects themselves are sometimes narrow. But over the course of time, we cover a wide variety of subjects. That's why we call it the show about everything.

Today, I have the great pleasure of speaking to a journalist, Alec Klein, who is a best-selling author. Yes, there's a book, and yes, you may have to buy the book. This may be compelling enough that you're going to have to buy yet another book. The title of his book is, aftermath when it felt like life was over. Folks, this is about the cancel culture. Alec Klein, it's a pleasure to have you. It's an honor to be here. You were a journalist with the Washington Post with the Wall Street Journal. You are an investigative journalist. you helped dozens of women who were incarcerated with excessive sentences, gain their freedom through parole and commutation.

You've done all kinds of stuff, and you're a straight up real journalist of the kind that I feel doesn't exist very much anymore. What happened to you? My audience knows absolutely nothing of your story, I'm assuming. You wrote about it in the book, Aftermath, when it felt like life was over. So what is it that happened? Where do I start? I guess I should start by saying that I was a professor and I was running a center investigating

wrongful convictions and false accusations. And then suddenly I found myself on the other side where I was being accused. And in particular, I had some former students and staffers who accused me of mistreating them and harassing them. But what was put out there in the public domain through the media was wildly and grossly false. The attack was led by a former employee whom I had let go. And I should add, none of the accusations included any kind of sexual interaction. So even though it didn't come out in the media, the complaints that were actually filed with the university were kind of this hodgepodgepodge. of things. So for instance, there were students who complained about the chair that they sat in in my office.

There was a small futon chair that my little kids would sit in when they came to visit me. Some of my students said that that chair was slightly lower than my chair in my office, and they called it a power differential, which was a term I hadn't really heard before. But as soon as I heard about this, I chucked the chair in a dumpster and got rid of it. but there were students who also complained about their grades. They wanted an A-minus instead of a B-plus. They wanted a B-plus instead of a B. And this was from, you know, seven years ago.

Tell us the name of the college or university. Yes, a Northwestern University. In Chicago. Yes, correct. And what were you a professor of? What's your subject? Well, I was teaching investigative journalism, but I was also running a center that investigated wrongful convictions. And so most of my time was spent investigating cases where people were falsely accused of things they didn't do until, as I said, I myself was accused falsely of different things like this.

So that's essentially what happened. So when did this start? I mean, you're an award-winning journalist. you're not just some guy. You're an award-winning journalist. You've written for some of the most prestigious papers in the country. When did this process begin? It started in 2018 right at the height of the Me Too movement

when things were sort of at a fever pitch. And maybe two and a half years ago, this former employee who I had let go, she put out a public letter to the media that essentially accused me of all sorts of terrible things. And it was kind of like, you know, wildfire. It happened instantly. My life was destroyed overnight. And it was basically all over just like that based on what happened right away.

I guess, you know, when I hear stories like this, it's why I often say that we all have to. speak up and we have to be vigilant because this is a grotesque thing to happen to anyone, even if there were slight truth to it. And I'm not saying in your case there was, but I'm saying that we've moved away from having real respect for truth and for the values that make us a civilized society. And we allow trends like the Me Too movement to kind of carry us into places where we ought never to have gone. And yours is a classic case. Here you have a disgruntled employee, so that would tip most people off that she may have an axe to grind. So let's be careful how we figure out whether this is true or isn't. Let's make sure that this is true.

But that's what you said began it. Well, I mean, you know, have you heard of McCarthyism or the Salem witch trials, which is to say that at the height of the Me Too movement, it was the accusations itself that destroyed people. So in other words, you were guilt by accusation. It was trial by media. And there's really not much you can do about it. And it can happen to anybody, by the way. You know, anybody at any time in a position of authority or in the public eye could be accused of these kinds of things. And it doesn't take much because, as you know, at the height of the Me Too movement, it's also about all women are to be believed. And I would just say, I don't care who the demographic is, but that idea that all people should be believed

before you verify things makes no sense. I mean, as an investigative reporter, you got to bet these things. You got to check it out. You got to confirm it. That's part of, you know, at least the journalism I came from at the Washington Post, which was, you know, you can't simply just say these terrible things about somebody without checking it out because it kills that person almost instantly. It's actually what's been called by, I think it was Barry Weiss who said it's social murder. I'd say it's professional and social murder because if you're canceled, you're done. There's no, you're not even supposed to come back. It was Louis C.K. who tried to come back, you know, as a comedian.

And people said, oh, how dare he try to have a career and be a comedian again? Well, what's he supposed to do, you know? Or others who have a family to feed, myself included, what are we supposed to do for our children or our families? But there's no forgiveness in this. In fact, if you're convicted of murder, I would say in some ways you have a better chance, of coming back into society once you're out after you've served your time, as opposed to those who've been canceled because those who've been canceled by cancel culture are not supposed to come back.

They're supposed to be just finished completely. And I think that's really dangerous. I mean, think about it. You know, for our children, it doesn't take much for somebody to say something online about them to hurt them. And as you know, kids have actually killed themselves over this. Other people have killed themselves over this. I wanted to kill myself when all this happened.

So give us your background. Where did you grow up? you married, you have kids? Where are you in life? Well, I grew up in New York City. As I said, we're kind of, you and I are contemporaries in many ways. So I'm from the East Coast. My father was and is a journalist. And so I grew up with it. He was at the New York Times running the New York Times magazine when I was growing up. And so I guess I sort of caught the bug. And your father is the famous journalist, Ed Klein, whom I've had on this program. That's right. And he speaks very highly of you.

Wow. Well, I'm not kidding. His is the classic case of somebody who, you know, came of age in a different time, but had the ability to see that it was the world that was going crazy, that it was the New York Times that was going crazy, and that the things he took for granted, he could no longer take it for granted. So he shifted his allegiances to become more conservative. You obviously are of a dramatically younger generation. But you, so you grew up in journalism. And when did you, when did you begin to teach? Because I know that you have written as a journalist. But at what point did you begin to teach at Northwestern? Well, it really started when I was at the Washington Post, and I did investigations, because when I did those investigations, I was invited to some universities to lecture.

And I realized, oh, gosh, you know, this is kind of, cool that you can, you know, sort of impart your experience to the younger generation and teach them. Hang on. We're going to go to one of these hard breaks. We'll be right back, folks, talking to Alec Klein. Don't go away. Hey there, folks. Welcome back. We are talking to the author of a new book. His name is Alec Klein. He is an award-winning investigative journalist who suffered at the hands of the monstrous thing. We call the cancel culture, the culturally Marxist woke mobs, online or physically in the street carrying pitchforks. The book he has written is called Afterman when it felt like life was over. So, Alec, are you married? Do you have kids? I have two kids.

I'm legally separated, but I have a daughter who's 13 and a son who's 11. And I got to tell you, maybe the worst part of being canceled was the impact that it had on my family more so than on me. my daughter being the daughter of an investigative funeral, she went to school to the library to check out what was written about me, the terrible things, and she came home crying about it because she knew this wasn't dad, this wasn't daddy, and I had to talk to her about how these things happened,

and it was a tough conversation, I can tell you that. But this is, you know, I think what people don't understand is that when people are canceled, those who like this say, oh, what's the big deal? It's just their career. But it's much more than a person's career. It's who they are. It's their families. It's their communities. I mean, I think the destruction of cancel culture is really one of the worst things that's going on today. And frankly, in my mind, it's really counter to what the Bible talks about, about forgiveness, about what is sort of espoused. There's no question about that. There is no grace. There's something. That's why it has a

demonic flavor to it because it is so unforgiving. It's as unforgiving as it gets. Did you, at what point in life did you come to faith? Because I know you mentioned that. Yeah, well, pretty late, to be honest. I was actually investigating a case, a criminal case in about 2016, and I was having a chat with a friend, and I said something like, you know, why do bad things happen to good people? And he handed me a book, which was Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ. And I have to tell you, to be honest, I wasn't going to read it. When I saw the cover, I was a non-believer.

I actually didn't believe in a single thing at all. And so I took the book, you know, and thought, okay, I'm not going to read it. But as an author, I have a tendency to look at the first page of how somebody writes their book. I'm kind of curious how they get into the story. And it's not an exaggeration, but you probably know the book. But Lee Strobel talks about how he was. was an investigative reporter, which is what I am. He was investigating a wrongful conviction, which is what I do.

And he was doing it from Chicago, which is where I was. I was just going to say, I didn't know the wrongful conviction. The other two parts I know, and I know Lee Strobel. So that would have had to grab you by the throat. He did, completely. It had something to do with his writing style and everything to do with the content. That's amazing. But the other thing that was amazing about it was that he wrote it as a skeptic,

because he was trying to convince his own wife that, you know, Jesus was a myth. And I thought Jesus was a myth until I read the book. And the book makes it very strong a case, of course, for the historical relevancy and proof of Jesus' existence. So I thought, well, wait a minute, maybe I should read the book that he's referring to that we's talking about, which is the Bible. So I picked up the Bible, and I started with the Gospels. Big mistake. Yeah, and that blew my mind.

And from that point forward, I said, you know what? I am going to teach my children what I've learned from the Gospels about Jesus. And they loved it. And they wanted these first almost like bedtime stories that I would tell them about this. And that was sort of the beginning of my journey to faith, although I have to say it really came to fruition during my own destruction when I was canceled. Because at my darkest moment, I was literally face down in the rug in the dining room, drinking. alcohol and taking prescription medication. And I couldn't really focus on anything.

I couldn't read. I couldn't watch television. I couldn't really move. But the one thing that I found myself able to do was to read books about Jesus. And I can't tell you why. But for whatever reason, I was ordering books about Jesus almost every other day and trying to just sort of understand what that was all about. But that got me through it.

That got me through the darkest, deepest. I mean, I didn't know you were a person of faith when I invited you to be on this program, so that's a surprise to me. It's a surprise to me. I assume you were raised as a secular Jew. Well, my father who is Jewish, and my mother is Japanese, and we celebrated Christmas. So I'm not quite sure what you call that. Except, you know, it was kind of like, you know, I really just didn't believe in anything. I didn't think that there was anything to any of this.

And I didn't understand what I didn't understand. And so, by the way, I got baptized about a year ago, and I was in the kiddie pool with a bunch of little kids. You know, it's just me and the little kids. But, you know, frankly, it's the one of the great things that came out of my own sort of suffering and destruction was coming to my faith, because it's the one thing that is now part of my daily life. but you know how it is I think for a lot of people it's they have to reach their lowest point before they finally you know reach out for something greater than themselves yeah yeah well unfortunately that's the case but listen I think a lot of times Christians refer to people who

aren't Christians I'm talking about serious Christians I'm not talking about people you know there are a lot of people who I call them they're Gentiles right in other words they're not there maybe aren't Jewish but they're definitely not Christians they're just Gentiles but But the fact of the matter is a lot of serious Christians refer to non-Christians as, oh, their seekers or their searchers. And I think, no, there are many people just floating through life because life is loaded with opportunities to distract ourselves from what's real or what is true. But when you go through a crisis, oftentimes that's when you say, I need to know what

is true. Is there a way to deal with this or whatever? So it's fascinating to me that, again, I didn't know that you were going to go. there. But I wasn't planning to, and I was going to say one of the things I really like about the way that you view things is that, you know, people, you know, say you're intellectual, and that's often sort of viewed as sort of counter to being a believer. But in fact, you know, it makes much more rational sense than people realize if you actually look at what the historical proof was about Jesus and what he said and what he did, I mean, you know, you've probably read all these books, but there's

quite a bit out there because I think I needed as a skeptic to wrap my head around the miracles about the resurrection to understand what he was saying and what it means. And I think, you know, as an intellectual, you can do that and come to the right place, frankly, which is that it makes perfect sense. Oh, no, I'm right there with you. I mean, I, coming to faith many years before you, but it was the same kind of thing. I just thought, like, are any really smart people, were they Christians and suddenly you discover that tons and tons and tons of brilliant people were profound Christians in art today. And you thought, how has this been kept from me? It doesn't mean you have to become a Christian, but how did I not even know that all of these amazing

geniuses and great people and heroes had a devout Christian faith? And Bonhofer at the top of the list, you know, the man who spoke up for the Jews because of his Christian faith. I mean, there's a lot there but anyway I don't want to get into this too much I want to I want to go to your story so you are accused by this ex-employee suddenly and this is fairly recent 2018 you said right correct so where does it go where does it go from there this letter comes out suddenly it's in the news your your attack professor well imagine basically an atom bomb falling on your head because right after the letter came out students who I had never taught and didn't know, created a template on Facebook and said, this is how you can complain and attack this guy, just fill in the blanks. So in addition to that, there were other students that I didn't know who started an online petition to have me ousted. At the same time, there were professors, my colleagues, who knew absolutely nothing

about any of this. And they put out a public letter of sympathy and apology to this sort of attack. attack group. And so this was all happening within a matter of days. And I, you know, my lawyers were saying basically to remain silent because that was what the university required of me as an employee to honor this process, this process, which is called Title IX. And so I did. So I sat there basically getting hammered. I like to think it as an online stoning. You're sitting there and you're just getting online and you're stoned and bloodied. And there's nothing you can do about But you can't really, the more you try to even fight against it, the worse it gets.

So in some ways, you know, you've seen this with a variety of other people who've been canceled. I mean, you know, left and right, by the way. Al Franken, you know, he's pretty progressive. But boy, was he absolutely hammered over, as it turned out, almost nothing of substance. And even his own colleagues basically throw him under the bus. I mean, Ellen DeGeneres. there's something uh you mentioned this earlier there's something very very spiritually dark about this uh it doesn't feel the way justice is supposed to feel you know uh and i think that when you

refer to al frank and uh that's that's another case of someone that i disagree with him in all kinds of ways but i saw that what happened to him was it was flat out wrong it was absolutely wrong we're going to be right back folks i'm talking to alec klein alec with a c The book is Aftermath. Hi folks. These uncertain times can cause uncertain gut slowdown. Worrying fear can wreak havoc on our digestion, making it hard to feel optimum. Bloading, less energy, and occasional constipation can slow you down in your daily activity.

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Hey there, folks. Welcome back. I'm talking to Alec Klein, the author of a book, Aftermath, when it felt like life was over. We're talking about the cancel culture. So, Alec, so this happens to you, and you're told these university situations are really bizarre. They've got their own odd rules. And so you're having to take these punches and you can't hit back. So what happens?

Well, it's actually worse than that because under the title. nine process when you're accused of misconduct, and this is happening all over the country, not just at universities. I, for instance, was not allowed to have an attorney present while I was being actually grilled for hours by an attorney. I was also told that I couldn't produce the hundreds of people who could speak to my character. So I'm like, well, how do you prove a negative? I mean, if you can't even produce the people who are supposed to be able to tell people what you're really like. So there really wasn't much that I can do. And, you know, It was really a bad situation.

And I was frankly suicidal and... But let's be clear. This is because the universities are insane. They don't go by American law. They have... It's like having Sharia law. Yeah. It's no difference.

They have their independent, strange ways which do not bring about justice. And you're a victim of it. Many others have been victims of it. And it's a lot of... allowed to go on on university campuses. Thank God for Betsy DeVos. She recently did something to protect young men against accusations, secular accusations, so that at least there's some semblance of fairness. So you had to go through that. Well, you're absolutely right about the fact that Betsy DeVos is trying to do something about this because so many actually kids in

college have been absolutely destroyed by this. And because you're essentially without any due process. And so, thank goodness that's happening. But I got to tell you, a lot of people out there, it's kind of like McCarthyism, which is to say, you know, you're accused of something. You go off and you're canceled and your life is over. You know, it doesn't even... You say it's like McCarthyism?

I think it's worse than McCarthyism. Because, you know, we've had movies made about McCarthyism. and on and on and on. And a lot of the people who were accused during the time of McCarthyism were at least partially guilty of being communist sympathizers, Lillian Hellman and the whole gang. We're talking about something that's actually worse than that because the left and the organs that once would have defended folks like you

are on the other side. I think actually one of the biggest parts of this problem is the media to be frank. That's what I'm saying, yeah. Well, you're absolutely right because, you know, it's the weaponization, in my opinion, of the Internet. So, you know, the Internet comes along, and then they suddenly figure out, hey, wait a minute, there's a way to destroy somebody on the Internet.

All you have to do is push a button on your smartphone, and they're done. And I got to tell you, this was not the journalism that I grew up when my father was at the New York Times and I was at the Washington Post in the Wall Street, which is to say, You couldn't simply say, you know, this person did some terrible thing unless you've actually verified it because you can't take it back. You know, but now, you know how it is. The problem is that the New York Times and the Washington Post, they can't compete with these little blogs. So what do they do? They can't do what they're doing, which is they put out unverified rumors, which instantly destroys people because they're trying to compete.

But, you know, frankly, they're struggling to do that. I actually blame them for a lot of this because let's face it, you know, whether it's Charlie Rose or somebody else, it's Rush amount, which is, you know, there's like 17 different perspectives about what happened or take Ellen DeGeneres. Did she or did she not giggle when somebody at her office said something that was kind of mean? I don't know. Well, look, Charlie Rose is, it's another one of these cases where, you know, you read about what somebody supposedly did. And you can say, yes, that was wrong, but it certainly doesn't rise to the level that their career gets canceled. I mean, what it said that Charlie Rose did, I would say is wrong, but I would never have thought that his career would have been canceled over that. The same thing with, as we mentioned, Senator Al Franken. I mean, the point is that we've had a modicum of fairness in our culture for the left and for the left and,

for the right, but there of course are some people on the right who rejoice when somebody like Al Franken is canceled and shame on them because you're contributing to the problem. Yeah. I mean, you're so right. I mean, you know, not every case is Harvey Weinstein. And I think that, you know, people who've actually tried to make that argument that there's spectrums of behavior, who is it, Matt Damon, and said, wait a minute, wait a minute, there, that's not the same thing what Harvey Weinstein did compared to somebody who he patted somebody

on the back. And then he was absolutely eviscerated on what I was saying that. So he totally backed off because in this environment, if you don't genuflect to the left, if you don't do and say exactly what they want, you're eviscerated. It's all over. So people are silenced because they don't want to get ensured by this. And I think that that's actually a scary thing. We're kind of in this totalitarianism.

But that, Alec, is why everyone needs to speak up. And if you don't speak up, you become part of the problem. I have to say that. When Garrison Keeler is another case. He had a picture taken and he put his arm around some middle-aged woman. And that was why he got kicked off of his show. It's just completely bizarre. But the fact that people aren't willing to do something.

I mean, we had the letter, was it in Harper's or the Atlantic? Somebody wrote a letter, 150 signatories, mostly on the left. But the classical liberalism of, of, their era is gone. And it has been replaced by something like you mentioned, the Salem witch trials. It is a, let's put it this way. And we're going to go to a break. But it's a kind of madness. It is nothing to the kind of madness. I would say it has demonic aspects to it. We're going to be right back. I'm talking to Alec Klein. The book is Aftermath. Folks, I got some embarrassing news to share with you. But you know what? This is just the kind of a show where I don't care.

willing to lay my heart, you know, on the line. Here's the issue. Mike Lindell with my pillow. You may, you may notice that I have a bobble hell of him near me. He's here to remind all of us that when you go to mypillow.com, you get whopping discounts if you use the code Eric. Okay. Now, there are a lot of people who haven't done that and we have your names here. And Chris Heimes Ann Albin pointed out to me that there's like three pages of you whose first name is Eric. You, you're so, I mean, that's humiliating for me

that even though your name is Eric, you're still not willing to use the code Eric. I mean, if you don't want to use it because it's my name, use it because it's your name. But the point is that I see who you are and I just feel humiliated by this. Please go to go to mypillar.com. It's okay, Mike.

It's going to be okay. go to my pillow.com, use the code, Eric. You're going to get whopping savings and really high quality products. Did I mention that? Thank you. Folks, I'm talking to Alec Klein. The book is Aftermath when it felt like life was over. So if somebody gets this book, what will they find in here? It tells your story of how this happened and how you struggle through it. Well, it's such a great question because I think at the time, I was so despondent. I was so despondent. in such despair, I couldn't sleep. And I was up at like, you know,

for something in the morning, which, by the way, is pretty early for me. And I didn't know what to do. So I sat at my desk after I walked the dog, and I started writing because I'm a writer. You know, I was actually thought, I thought I was writing to myself. I had no idea what I was doing.

But I was so much in anguish. And I started to write. And in the process, it suddenly occurred to me over some time. Like, wait a minute, this is actually made, a story, but it was unintentional. I was planning to just write it for myself because I had nothing more to do, really, except to sort of try to make sense of what had just happened to me. And that

became the book. And I'd just say that it's the first time I've ever written a book where I didn't struggle for a single day writing, which it's never happened to be before or since. Because as you know, as a writer, it's really hard sometimes, no matter how much you've done it, sometimes you struggle over one thing or another. But in this case, it just sort of came out. out. And I was very fortunate because I had a publisher, and then they were scared off by some of the same attackers who canceled me. They tried to. Unbelievable. Well, it was sort of interesting because one of them used her position at a public radio outlet to scare off the publisher. And a friend of mine said, oh, you ought to complain to, you know, that outlet and say that she improperly used her position as a

journalist to scare off the publisher. And I said, no, I'm not going to do that, you know, because that's not what the Bible says, which is to just, you know, have compassion, be forgiving. And so I let it go. And within a matter of days after that publisher backed out of the deal, another publisher came forward. It was kind of almost, it was kind of a miracle, I have to say. And so just like that, the book came out. And I'm very thankful that it's out there, because I think that there has to be a conversation about this. It's not just about my case. It's about all the people out there, especially, you know, we both have children.

But for kids out there, you know how it is. They all have their smartphones. And they can say, oh, Joey's a meeting or he plagiarized or he did whatever. And there's no taking it back. The Internet is permanent. There's a famous anecdote where somebody was exonerated and then the person said, okay, and to what department do I now go to get my reputation back? I can't remember.

Oh, gosh. You're so right. In fact, I've talked to a lot of people who have been canceled, including a guy who was accused in a court of law in the UK. He was accused of rape. And he was actually exonerated and found not guilty. But it didn't matter. His life was ruined anyway. So even if you're found not guilty in a court of law as he was, it didn't matter. His life was utterly ruined. And I know a lot of other people who have been canceled. They have said that they have not found a way back into society, which I think is. kind of tragic. Well, I have to say I feel so strongly about this that I have deliberately had people on this program because they've been canceled, because others wouldn't have them on their programs. And so if anybody wants to know why I have Katie Hopkins or Milo Unopoulos or a number of other people, it is because this cancel culture is so pernicious, so dark, it's not the way in a free society we're meant to deal with disagree. or with things that we don't like. Absolutely. It means, in fact, how our country was founded as a republic,

which was this idea of, you know, people having an expression. They could say what they want. This is what the founding fathers were talking about, which was let the marketplace decide which ideas prevail and which don't. But we don't do that anymore. Now it's like, you know, you must believe with everything that the left says or you're destroyed. And it's just a great, I think it's a crazy time. But you know how it is?

when you live in the crazy time, I'm not sure you know it until later. I mean, some people do, but sometimes it takes decades before we say, gosh, you know, I can't believe McCarthyism happened. You know, we have to say it now. But, you know, I think we're in one of those crazy times right now. There's no question.

And I never thought that, you know, Milton's aereopogynica would be meaningful in our time. I mean, the idea that we can read all things. We should allow everyone to speak. And we believe, if you have some sense, that there is such a thing as truth, you believe that the cream rises to the top, that people will be able to distinguish between truth and lies. And so you don't have to cancel. You don't have to censor. It used to be one of the classic, you know, liberal values, but obviously

it's gotten run over recently. Now, do you talk about your faith and how that helped you get through this in this book? I do, you know, and it didn't go over terribly well on the family, you know, because I was starting to send Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Price, to my family members, and they're like, what is this? You know, what are you doing? And they frankly didn't take it well. And I'm not sure if any of them actually read the book. But I, you know, I tried to explain to myself. First of all, have you actually read the Gospels? And the answer, by the way, was no. Because if you read the Gospels, I would argue there's nothing you could dispute about it. There's nothing in there. But the point is that people often just won't read that. And, and, and, To me, that's why some books, like Case for Christ, I know for a fact that if you hand that book to most people, they won't read it because of the title. And I've always tried to write my books in such a way that people who wouldn't read those books might read my books because I know how hard those folks are to reach and how there is such a prejudice. And I was one of the people who had those prejudices and, you know, most of my friends have those prejudices. So I get it. So it's a weird thing.

So you're saying that people in your own family were troubled by your dealing with this faith stuff. I would say probably to this day they think I'm crazy. Some of them. I'm not saying all of them, but you know what? I don't care because in my mind, my faith has to be anchored not on other humans. Because we're all fallible. We're all in sin. It has to be on something higher, which is about God.

And to me, that's what it has to be about. And so every day I read the Bible, every day I read devotionals. And I try to stay grounded in it because I think it's important. And I think as a society, that's the biggest problem right now, which is we are so horned off from faith because it's not, you know, sort of the thing right now, especially among the elitists on the coasts, which is, you know, actually, that's a religion in itself, right? If you don't believe that, that's a religion right there.

But, you know, to me, it's all about, you know, bringing us back to our faith so that we can actually understand what compassion and forgiveness is all about, which we don't even talk about that anymore. Alex, you are singing my song in my key, everything you just said. There's no question about it. It is, I wrote a book called If You Can Keep It, where I talk about the link between American freedom and faith. Why weren't we taught that in schools? It doesn't mean you have to believe in that faith, but these intellectual ideological links are

fundamental to everything. We're going to be right back final segment. I'm talking to Alec Klein, the book. I hope you get a copy. It's Aftermath. Hey, the folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Alec Klein. His book is Aftermath.

Alec, we're talking about, you know, I said, this is my song you're singing in my key, because this is the tragedy today, is that the cultural elites particularly have cordoned off faith. And, you know, you're not even about faith. You're about truth. In other words, what you are talking about is not saying, hey, this works for me.

You're saying, I have come to believe this is true. And so where do you go from there? If you actually believe it's true, you really can't back away from it. You have to figure out a way to deal with it. I mean, you got to walk the walk. I mean, for me, it's helping inmates.

By the way, talk about cancel culture. If you have been put into prison, that is the ultimate cancel culture. And by the way, I'm not excusing crimes that are committed and that are bad. But I got to tell you, I talk to inmates almost every day. and talk about suffering and about the fact that they've been forgotten. They've lost their children.

They've lost everything. But I investigate those cases on a daily basis to try to help them. Oftentimes they're sort of out of options. But it's interesting because a lot of inmates have more faith than I've ever seen before, and they've turned to God because they have nothing. And it's the one thing that keeps them going. It's so strange almost to me how often I bump into it now. Now that my eyes are open, I see it every.

I see it on television. I see it. And the people I talk to, I see it wherever I go. But to me, that's what it's about is like somehow sort of acting out our faith through what we do. It's not that we're saved by that, but it's basically doing what Jesus talked about, which is to go forth and to baptize all nations. And that's what I think we ought to be doing. So there's a happy story. There's a happy ending to your difficult story. And I think that, I think it's important, you know, to say that because a lot of times people want to focus on how terrible everything is. And I always say, listen, from my point of view, the God of the Bible is the answer and he's alive. And I'm not just making that up because it sounds nice, but it's actually true. So when people

face hopelessness the way you did, there is an answer. And the lie that there is no answer needs to be called out as a lie. And so you've been doing that in your story here. But, I mean, you really did hit bottom. And to go through the hell you went through, you know, I'm so sorry to hear that. And yet, my goodness, look what good is coming out of it. Well, it was, I mean, I have to say it was by far the worst thing I've ever experienced. But on the other hand, I sometimes say I'm thankful for it,

which is to say, I don't want it to happen again. But I'm thankful in a way because it did bring me to my faith. which is the most important thing in my life. And for that, I'm genuinely thankful for. I'm closer and I spend more time with my kids, which I also am grateful for. So there's a lot to be said for this. And I'm on a different path now, which is good, which is I think that, you know, the more we can do to talk about compassion and forgiveness

and about the Bible and about what Jesus was trying to impart, the better off we are, because I got to tell you, I think we live in a pretty fallen world right now. I mean, I don't know if it's the worst that I've ever seen in my lifetime. And I just think that, you know, what you're doing and what you talk about is what, in fact, we ought to be talking about as a society because we've lost all of this idea of being civil and being tolerant. And so I'm all for that. Well, I mean, it's all related, obviously. And we are going through a civilizational crisis and existential crisis in America.

and it's because we haven't been teaching these foundational ideas for about 50 years. Since the sexual revolution, we've kind of like jumped onto this anti-heroic narrative about America, about everything. And it doesn't work. And here we are. We're out of time. Alex Klein, I'm just so glad to be getting to know you here and to know about your book. Folks, the book is called Aftermath when it felt like life was over. Alec Klein, congratulations.

Hope to have you back soon. Thank you so much. It was an honor. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.