The Eric Metaxas Show - Amanda Barratt (Encore)

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

Amanda Barratt presents the fascinating details found in her new book, "The White Rose Resists," the novelization of the true story of heroic resistance to true evil -- the German students who defied Hitler. (Encore Presentation)

show. It's the show that answers the questions. Could you milk a cockroach? By the way, cockroach milk is really yummy. Some would even say numbing. This announcement has been brought to you by the cockroach dairy council. And now the man who once wrangled cockroaches for a living in Kansas City, Eric Mattaxas. Hey folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. I have good news for you. Good news. The good news is we get to talk about a book. We get to talk with the author of the book. and we get to talk about a period in history with which I'm not only somewhat familiar, but very excited, very enthusiastic. But without going into further detail, why don't I simply say that our guest today is Amanda Barrett,

whom we've had on the program before. Amanda, welcome back. So good to see you. Thank you so much, Eric. It's such a joy to be here. Well, look, you make me very happy because you're writing about things that I care about very, very deeply. you're writing about them in a fictional way. And let's explain that because not everybody understands it. There are people that sometimes say to me. Now, I write nonfiction biographies and they say, I loved your novel about Bonhoeffer.

I love it. And I sometimes correct them and say, no, no, no, it's not a novel. It's nonfiction. A novel is fiction. And then there's this thing called historical fiction, which is what you do and you've done in your two books, where you write about true events, but you write about them with some fictional elements.

And so your last book we talked about was my dearest Dietrich about the love affair between Bonhofer and Maria von Vedemeyer. And your new book is about a hero of mine, Sophie Scholl and the White Rose Movement. The title, of course, is the White Rose Resists. But you're very clear in the title. You say, the White Rose resists a novel of the German students who defied Hitler.

So I'm just fascinated, Amanda, that you've been very busy. And in the time that we last spoke, you've written this book. So tell us, for people who know nothing about the White Rose and Sophie Scholl, tell us about her. So researching my previous novel, my dearest Dietrich, led me to the story of Sophie Scholl. I was reading a book about youth in Nazi Germany and came across Sophie's story. And I was immediately captivated by the idea of this 21-year-old woman who dared to stand against Hitler by printing and distributed in thousands of leaflets calling on the German people to resist Nazism. And I immediately wanted to know more beyond the brief paragraph I found in this book. And so I immediately began exploring merely from my own personal curiosity.

But the more that I explored and the more that I delve into Sophie's story, the more I felt that this needed to be shared in a fictional form. out because I believe fiction has the power to create a deeper empathy than the biographies in non-fiction is wonderful. It can reach a new demographic of readers, and that's what I wanted to do with the White Rose with it. And you're quite right. You don't know this, but I have a new book out called Seven More Men, which is a continuation of my book Seven Men. And in a year or less, I'll come out with Seven More Women, and one of them is Sophie Schall. I just thought, my goodness, story needs to be known. She's such an extraordinary person. And yet, already my audience gets to know about her through you. So I really am excited about this. So tell more about the White Rose movement,

because many people don't know about it. I mean, I know there was a film about about it a few years ago, wasn't there? Yes, there was an Academy Award nominated film called Sophie Scholl the Final Days. Right. Was that part of your inspiration? Is that how you found your way to her? I did watch the film early on, but no, what brought me was a book about youth in Nazi Germany. And it just happened to be talking about Sophie's story and just and reading about her and how she was, you know, the way that she lived and the way that she died just made me want to explore more. Yeah. I didn't know that she was a young woman of Christian faith. A lot of times, you know, history skips over that part.

And so to find out that she was, obviously that Bonhofer was, that Von Schafer was that Von Sched. Dauphinberg was, they were all moved to do what they did so heroically, at least in part, but I would say in large part, because of their Christian faith. And when you go to Germany and you see statues to them and those kinds of things, you could really miss that. They seem to skip over that. Yes, well, they were all Christians, not just Sophie and Hans. Hans and Sophie were Lutheran, Alexander Schmerel, who was another.

member was Russian orthodox and really grass was Catholic. So they all held different states, but a deep belief in God and a deep heartbreak over what was going on in the Germany that they were growing up in. Isn't that extraordinary? Okay, so what is this story then? And tell us about how Sophie and her brother Hans, how they grew up. What was their upbringing? So they grew up in own Germany. And in the 1930s, both Hans and Sophie were ardent supporters of Nazism. They were both members of the Hitler youth and the League of German Girls. And they were swept up in the speeches and the parades. They got to go camping with their friends. They got to go hiking and they loved it, even though their father, Robert Scholl, was very against the Nazis. He told his children,

the Nazis are wolves, wild beasts out to destroy the German people. They are not, they are very bad for Germany. But being teenagers, they didn't listen. And this kind of have continued until about 1935 when Hans Scholl went to the Nuremberg rally. He was selected out of all the boys in Ome to bear a flat at the Nuremberg rally, and they are surrounded by the speeches and the parade in the grandeur of the Nazi regime. He became disillusioned by this mind-numbing conformity that he saw. And when he returned home, his family noticed a mark difference in him, that from then on they were all of one accord as a family and that they wanted to be against Nazism. Homs actually joined an illegal banned youth group, the DJ 111, which he was

eventually imprisoned, spent time in 1937 in jail because of his involvement in, and that reinforced their desire. And what really clinched it was when they heard about the Reich Euthanasia program, they received a leaf in their mailbox written by a man named Bishop Clemens von Galen. And Bishop Clemens von Galen was preached a sermon that some people duplicated. And when they received this leaflet, the Scholl family, in their mailbox, they said, we need to have a duplicating machine of our own, Hans and his sister said. And so in 1942 May, Sophie arrives at University of Munich to begin her first semester there. And while there, Hans and his friend Alexander Schmerel have already begun the preparations for producing leaflets. And when she finds out about it,

she immediately says, I want to be a part of this. This is something that I have to do. It's really hard for us living in America. I know you're in Michigan. I'm here in New York to imagine the bravery to do something like this, especially as late as 1942 when the Nazis had total control. There were still nooks and crannies of safety in the mid-30s, but by the time you get to that point, it's just complete control. Did she or her brother have any sense?

that they might be killed by the Nazis as a result of this? Oh, absolutely. Their own father, Robert Scholl, was actually at the time that they began the leaflet production, his impending trial was coming up that August because he had happened to, in the hearing of his secretary, call Hitler a scourge of humanity. He was kind of a hot-headed man,

and so he was just venting, and she happened to overhear him, and she immediately went and denounced him, and so he was facing trial and probable imprisonment. they very much knew. Sophie's fiance, Fritz Hartnogel, visited Sophie in May of 1942, and Sophie asked him to get her a voucher for a duplicating machine, and he said to her, do you know that what you're doing could cost you your life? And she said, yes, I know. She was completely prepared that this would very much, very likely end in her execution, even though, but she still continued to do it.

And so your book is about the whole White Rose movement, not just Sophie Scholl. Yes, it was very important to me because I think if anyone knows about the White Rose story, they know about Hans and Sophie. But it was important to me to focus on all of the members. And the more I explored all of their stories, their stories just captivated me and their varying personalities. My story also includes a couple of fictionalized characters that come to work with the White Rose. and so I was able to play with some fictional elements that way, which was a lot of fun. It is interesting that you've chosen fiction as the medium, as the genre in which you're operating.

And I always, when we come back from the break, because we're going to go to break, I want to talk to you about how you make those choices about what to put in that you know is absolutely right and what you have to twist. Folks, I'm talking to Amanda Barrett. You will not go away, so I won't ask you not to. We'll be right back. Hey, folks, welcome back. I almost said I'm talking to Sophie Scholl. Not quite. I'm talking to Amanda Barrett who has written a novel about the White Rose movement in Germany during the Nazi times, the heroic White Rose movement and the heroic figures, very, very young, young people

who were involved in it, Sophie Scholl and her brother Hans and a number of of others. Amanda, this book is brand new. Let me congratulate you on the publication of the book. Thank you so much. It's just been such a privilege and an honor for me to share the stories of these really courageous men and women. It's a wonderful thing, isn't it, to be able to do something, you know, really useful. And this is, it is useful to tell the world about these stories of real heroes. I want to ask you so many things. First of all, when did your previous book about Dietrich Bonhofer come out. Is that about two years ago now?

That came out last May. Okay, so it is that recent. I was going to say, it seems to me that it's more recent. So you were obviously already working on this book about the White Rose during the time that your book on Dietrich Bonhofer had come out.

Yes, I was. It was really great to be able to spend so much time immersed in World War II Germany, just from a research standpoint, the interconnectedness of their stories, you know how there was connections between the resistance movement of the White Rose and the German resistance movement that Bonhoeffer was a part of, was just really fascinating to me as an author to be able to explore. Like in my novel, I have the scene where Hans talks about that they're going to Berlin on February 25th to meet with members of the German resistance movement. And one of those people was Bonhofer. And then in my Bonhofer novel, I talk about Bonhofer, how he was going to meet with the Shoals on February 25th.

but then they were executed tragically just a few days before that. So they never did meet? No, they never did meet. Yeah, I didn't think so. When you write about a period in history like this, it fascinates me, having never written historical fiction, how do you make your decisions about what to put in and what to invent? In other words, you know, you want to be faithful to history, and I know that you are. But at the same time, because you're working in fiction, you have the ability to set scenes and to have conversations that you don't know that they happened exactly that way.

How did that work for you? So I begin by doing an immersive amount of research. I began by reading books and biographies written about the White Rose. I studied their letters and diaries extensively. So the letters Sophie wrote to her fiancé, the letters Hans Scholl wrote to his family, you know, throughout their entire childhood, not just when the time frame. my book was set. I also listened to recorded interviews with family and friends, and so interviews with Sophie's sister, interviews with the son of the Gestapo interrogator who interrogated Sophie, and then I also delved into and was able to access the interrogation transcripts, the trial records,

and their execution records. And those were some of the most moving parts reading in the execution record that right before the blade fell, Han Shul shouted long-lived freedom, and that in Sophie's execution, record, there was this very moving part where the Germans had noted a list of her personal items that were there for her family to pick up after her execution and just these little human items, you know, her wristwatch, some candy that her mother had brought to the prison wanting to give to her, but it never, and that would just go back to the family unopened. And so all of those things just provided this wonderful foundation for then me to build on and fill in the lines with my fictional pen, as I like to say, where there are vagaries in the historical narrative.

Well, it's extraordinary that you got to do that. And how did you get access to their, to their correspondence? Has that been published someplace? Yes, it has been published in English. And then there is some that was published in Germany that I was able to have translated. So I was able to access it. And then their interrogation transcripts and everything like that have also been translated into English. Is there anyone living who remembers them? It doesn't seem likely, but I'm just curious. Well, it's actually fascinating because right as I was finishing final edits on the book,

Sophie's sister Elizabeth passed away. And so I was able to include in my author's note the date that she passed away. And I basically had just days to spare it had been days later when it made it into the book. So she would be one of the last who remembers them. I believe Han Shoe's first girlfriend, Trotma Friends, who was a part of the group kind of more and not one of the core members, but was still part of the group, is still living somewhere. I believe she's over 100 now. Wow.

Yeah, it's a wild thing. When I was writing my Bonhofer book, it was the same kind of thing. It was the last gasp. There were a few people still living with whom I could speak, some that I missed speaking to. But it's amazing that this happened in many ways. not so long ago. So when you're writing about them, what did you discover?

I mean, first of all, for folks who don't know anything about the story of Sophie Shaw and her brother Hans and the White Rose Movement, what were they doing principally? In other words, this was while they were enrolled

at the university in 42 that most of this happened or does this go back before that? They began to actively print leaflets in the summer of 1942. They wrote their first four leaflets, averaging about 100 to 150 copies apiece. And then the men were sent during summer break to the front where they worked in Russia in hospitals as medics.

They were all medical students. So that's what they did while Sophie spent her summer working in a factory, working for the war effort. Then in November of 1942, they regather together. And at this point, they saw the Warsaw Ghetto. They saw horrific things in Russia. So they are even more on fire to take action. And at this point, they bump up their leaflet distribution from like 150 copies per leaflet to thousands of copies. And that's what they do for their final two leaflets.

And the last leaflet was the one that they're distributing at the university, their sixth leaflet, on the day they were arrested. And so what was their goal? In other words, we know that the goal of Bonhoeffer, he was involved in a larger plot to assassinate Hitler and hopefully the other leading, members of the Nazi party with the idea that they could, you know, not just defeat the Nazis, but then bring Germany back into negotiations with the English. But the main thing was killing Hitler. In the case of Sophie Schull and the White Rose folks, what was their principal goal in passing out these leaflets in 40s? Their principal goal was to open the eyes of those who were silently complicit, which was the majority of German people at the time. So they were writing these leaflets.

Their first leaflet began, nothing is so unworthy of a civilized nation as to allow itself to be governed without any opposition by an irresponsible plea that is yielded to base instincts. It is certainly the case today that every honest German is ashamed of his government. And other leaflets went on to say every word that comes out of Hitler's mouth is a lie when he says, peace, he means war. So they were writing these incredibly bold things and urging their fellow citizens to resist, to use sabotage, to not attend Nazi rallies, and to pass the leaflets arm. Wow. That's, that is extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary. And so it's, it's really like an act of conscience in the sense that they didn't know what the outcome would be. They just felt that they had to do this. Yes, very much show. They were very much acting not because they thought that they were,

going to be able to do this tremendous thing, but just because they believe they had to do something, or they themselves would be guilty. How old were the principal figures in this while this was going on? Sophie Scholl was 21, Hunt, and the other young men were in their early 20s. No one was above 25 years old. Unbelievable. And neither are you. Neither am I. Yes, but you're not a kid. You're too sophisticated. and you've written two wonderful books. Honestly, I'm so excited for you. It is amazing to think that these young people had the wisdom and the courage at this time to do this. Do we know how aware their parents were of what they were doing? Because most parents, I think, would tell their kids, listen, we love what you're doing, but please don't do it. We don't want you to die.

Their parents were not aware whatsoever. They, Hans and Sophie, wanted to keep keep it secret from their families. And that was the case of all the members of the White Rose, including Christoph Probst, who had a young wife, two little boys when he was working in the White Rose resistance. And so they were really trying to keep their families safe. Because you probably know the Gestapo protocol of plan arrest where they would not just arrest the person who was involved in the resistance, but their entire family. And so they were really trying to spare their families from knowing anything at all about this. Yeah, it's, it is amazing how horrifying the Gestapo was, I have to ask you a really basic question. Why did they call themselves

the White Rose? What was the name of the group? The White Rose or the White Rose something? The name of the group was the White Rose. How they got that name is still sort of a mystery. It's one of the things. They gave different answers in their interrogation as to how that name came about. Perhaps it was from a book that Honsho was reading that was called the White Rose. But what I believe how they got the name was it was a symbol. It meant purity against darkness. as Hans Scholl said that some words evokes certain feelings, and the White Rose evokes a feeling that they wanted. But they often did not call themselves the White Rose,

that they never called themselves the White Rose a couple of times in their leaflets, but really they were just students working together. And their last leaflets were called Leiflets of the German Resistance Movement. And so that's what they were moving to that. Hang on a moment. Folks, I'm talking to Amanda Barrett about her new book, The White Rose Resists.

Don't go away. Folks, I'm talking to Amanda Barrett about her brand new book about the White Rose movement. Some of you've heard of Sophie Shawl. These are young people who resisted the Nazis and who were executed by the Nazis. I have to ask you, Amanda, because you're a writer and I'm a writer, when you're writing, when do you or how do you write? Do you write as you go or do you do all your research and then suddenly write? Do you have a process?

Yes, I do. I do a bulk of my research ahead of time just because as I'm plotting the novel, I want to make sure I'm staying completely true to the historical narrative as it is written. And then I do research scene by scene. For example, when I was researching the scene, when the men were working in the field hospitals in Russia, I was doing a lot of research as to, you know, German field hospitals and things like that. but I really try to have a bulk of research done ahead of time. And because I enjoy it so much and because it fascinates me so much,

I'm always reading new research material, you know, when I'm not writing and just continuing to study. It's kind of funny because I know that when you do things like that, it leads you to ideas for other books. Are you thinking of what your next book is already? I'm guessing you may be. Yes, my next book is going to be set in World War II, Poland. So, and it's going to have a greater focus on the Holocaust than my previous two books.

And it's another little-known true story. And this story, I think, is even lesser known than the Scholes and Bonhoeffer. And I'm so excited to share more about it with readers in the months ahead. Well, terrific. Now, do you have the same publisher for both of these two books that you've done? Yes, Cregal Publications has published both of my two World War II novels. And when you, when you decide to write a book, do you have a sense? of what the length will be. I don't remember how long my dearest Dietrich was, and I don't remember

how long this book is. But do you have a sense, or does the publisher tell you it really needs to be no longer than about 280 pages? Or how does that work for you? I do. I mean, a typical novel is anywhere between 100,000 words to 110,000 words. And so that's kind of I was able to go a little bit over just because the depth and breadth of the story required it. And so the novel did end up being longer than my projected word count. But I think the story needed, I needed the extra room to explore, you know, just a But when you're talking to non-writers, word count doesn't mean so much. So say that once more again?

About 100 to 110,000 words, which is about the size of your typical novel that you'd find on a bookstore shelf, like a hardcover. My, the way I remember these things, my book, Amazing Grace, about Wilberforce is 100,000, words, it's about 300 pages. My book on Bonhofer is about 200,000 words. It's 600 pages. So that's sort of how I think of that, you know, in terms of the thickness of it. But 100,000 words is, you know, it's pretty hefty. Is there just a sense that that's what the market is looking for? Or, you know, because clearly there have been novels that have been, you know, a thousand pages and there have been novels that have been 120 pages. How do you, how did you approach it?

because I just, I can't help thinking that as you're doing the research, you're finding more and more and you're thinking this would be interesting, that would be interesting. How did you go about that? I did, and I did discover new things that I wanted to add. And so, yeah, the White Rose Resist is about 120,000 words. So it is a bit longer than what I and my publisher had originally planned on. But I was glad that they were willing to work with me to explore the extra word count,

just to create the most quality story that we could possibly put out. Right. Well, that's the funny thing. Sometimes extra words makes it a better story and sometimes extra words makes it a worse story. And that's always the problem, right? Is as a writer figuring out the answer to that question and then working with an editor and thinking, do I trust the editor enough to cut this or are they in fact making a mistake? I went to that with my Bonhofer book. You can imagine. I mean, it was way longer than anybody thought. And it is hard to know how to do that. Now, one thing that I have never done, and you've now done it at least twice, is to plot a novel. In other words, it's one thing to have a series of incidents, you know the history, but you're writing novels and you do have to plot. So how do you go about that? Do you do that while you're writing, or do you do the whole thing beforehand? Well, because these novels are biographical fiction, and I have to very much stick to the historical narrative. And so that is really my guiding force, as I imply.

and I can't really vary at all from that. And so I do write an extensive several-page summary of the book, summarizing all the main points, major scenes I want to have in little character, sketches of major characters. And so that is really my Bible, so to speak, as I am writing. But that's a very fluid document. It does go through changes as my creative process changes. And as I discover new things I want to include in the novel.

And because, yeah, you have to decide how do I end? end it? Where do I end it? On what kind of note do I end it? In what scene do I end it? Where do I begin it? Where do you begin this book? So I begin the book. In May of 1942, Justice Sophie is arriving after having spent two years working for the Reich Labor Service fulfilling her requisites to attend university. And so it's just as she's arriving in Munich meeting her brother for the first time after their separation. And so what is the length, the chronological length of the event? in the book? Is it about a year or less, or does it cover more of their lives? I go up until the end of the war. So the final scenes are right around May,

1945, as the war is ending. Although Sophie, of course, is executed. My fictional characters continue the story, because there were more than just the first White Rose trial where Sophie, Hans, and Christoph Probst were executed. There were the other trials later on, and so I go to have my other characters going through those. And so my story ends. in May 1945. May 1945. We're going to be right back, folks. I'm talking to the author of The White Rose Resists,

a novel of the German Students Who Defied Hitler. Brand New Book by Amanda Barrett. We'll be right back. Hey, folks too far. We wonder. Love sweet voices calling yonder. Every day when the work is behind you

and the shop and the store, put the lock on the door. Hey folks, I'm talking to Amanda. Barrett, who is a young author. I can say that only because I'm more than double her age. She has written two novels, historical novels, that take place during Nazi Germany. So of course, I'm immediately fascinated with the whole idea of it. And I'm thrilled to have Amanda back on the program to talk about her brand new book. It's just out called The White Rose Resists. Some of you've heard of Sophie Scholl. Amanda, tell us about their trial and their execution. I mean, it is a, it's a horrifying thing

and yet beautiful in a way, the idea that these young people for these noble ideas would give their lives. Tell us what you can. So on February 18th, Hans and Sophie took a chattel and a suitcase of about 1,700 leaflets to the university while morning classes were in session, and they scattered the leaflets on all three floors, were just about to leave when they realized they still had some in their suitcase, so they race back up to the third floor, and just before they're going to leave for the final time, Sophie pushes a stack of leaflets off the balustrade,

sending them swirling into the atrium below, and she's spotted by a janitor who's making his rounds, who immediately apprehends them, and they're taken into Gistachapo custody and interrogated in separate rooms for 17 hours. And at first, both of them are very much saying that we have nothing to do with this. And the Gestapo is believing them. They look like college students, a young brother and a sister.

They're not these culprits. But then the Gestapo searches their apartment and finds a bunch of stamps, their typewriter. And at this point, Hans and Sophie confess hoping to spare the other members of their group. And just four days later, they're taken to trial on February 22nd. And Judge Roland Frieser, the notorious people's court president, the one presiding. And if you know anything about Friesler, and I was fortunate to be able to watch him, video footage of him trying participants of the July 20th plot just to see how he was. He was a maniac. He shouted, he screamed, he hurled obscenities, and of course he did this all with the shoals.

But they, at this point, realizing that they were likely going to face execution, they spoke out and they said boldly why they had done what they did. Sophie actually told the judge, somebody after all had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did. And of course, they were sentenced to be executed, Han, Sophie, and Christoph Probst, whose wife had just given birth to their third little daughter

just a few weeks ago. And so from there, they're taken to Stadohme Prison in Munich, given one final visit with their parents, and at 5 o'clock, just four hours after the trial ends, they're executed viability. It's an extraordinary thing. I know that in Plutzen-Sae prison, many of the July 20th plotters were executed by guillotine. It's just an odd thing that in the middle of the 20th century, they were still using the guillotine. I'm not quite clear on why. Roland Friesler was, I mean, at this point, I would go out on a limb and say he was probably demon-possessed. There was a wickedness. to him that was infamous. There's just no question about it. He was a deeply wicked man. And I'm trying to think, I think it was Bonhoeffer's brother or someone who was on the street while Berlin is being bombed.

Maybe you'll remember this. I don't remember half of what I wrote in my own book, but he was summoned to somebody had been injured in the falling rubble as Berlin is being bombed. And this gentleman is taken in and he looks down at the injured man and it's Roland Friesler. And this man had the joy of declaring this wicked man finally to be dead. You probably remember the details. I do. So Rudiger Schleiker had just the day before, which was Dietrich Bonner's brother-in-law, and sentenced by Friesler.

And so I believe it was perhaps Rudiger Schleiker's brother. Oh, that's right. It was Schleichers brother. Yes. And so he was able to then say, that scoundrel is dead. And I don't think anybody was super sad at that particular moment. But, I mean, it's a wild coincidence, if you believe in coincidences, because, you know, I met Rudiger Schleichler's daughter.

I went to Germany in 2008 when I was doing research for Bonhofer. And, you know, Renata Baitga was the niece of Dietrich Bonhofer and the daughter of Rude Grischliker. And so this was her uncle going to check up on Renata's father. And in the middle of the chaos of running there, he is dragged in. You know, you're a doctor. Come here. Tell us, you know, what's going on. And he looks down and he sees the very judge who has sentenced his brother to death.

And he was able at least to go home to the Bonhoeffer family on Marienbueger Alley and to tell them the scoundrel is dead. I mean, it's just an amazing, you know, part of the story. But his name, unfortunately, comes up over and over and over. I'm talking about Roland Freisler, one of the wickedest men. People often think of Hitler as the wickedest man, but when you think about Goebbels and Friesler and others, it really is kind of a contest. Yes, it is. Well, I want to ask you when you, when do you decide that you wanted to write? Were you raised in a home where you had friends and relatives that were writers?

Did you read a lot of classic literature? I'm always curious how that happens for people. So, yes, I have loved reading from an early age, and I have loved classic literature from a very early age. And so I began writing and just exploring writing the kind of genre that I love to read. My first novels were sort of similar to kind of a spoof on like Charlotte Bronte, Jane Austen. But once I began delving into research for my dearest D. Trick, I just, the more stories I discover in the World War II era, the more that I feel like that's where I really want to continue sharing those stories. And you're so young, you don't have to choose. You can just write whatever you want. You can do this for 10 years,

and then skip back to, you know, Brontes and Jane Austen. Okay, what is your favorite Jane Austen or Bronte Sisters book? I love Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre. It's really at a lot of deeper levels. It's a lot deeper than what most people think. It's not just a romance. There's so many spiritual depth and moral depth. It's just a really great novel, not just to read, but to study and explore.

My wife and I have been, you know, during this pandemic shutdown, watching a lot of BBC miniseries and films based on Bronte, Dickens, and some of them are absolutely amazing. Folks, don't go away. I'm talking to Amanda Barrett. We'll be right back. The book, which you will purchase, is called The White Rose Resists. We'll be right back.

Hey, folks, it's the Eric Mattelette. access show. We're talking fiction and we're talking history. We're talking with Amanda Barrett, the author of a new book of historical fiction. It's called The White Rose Resists. It's about Sophie Schall and the White Rose movement. Amanda, so what then is the legacy? I know that when it came to folks like Dietrich Bonhofer and others involved in the plot to kill Hitler in that plot, for many years, Germans either were ambivalent about celebrating them or despised them as traitors. How has it fallen for Sophie and her brother and the other folks in the White Rose movement? So they were definitely executed as traitors, but their message was able to reach even further in the summer of

1943 when another member of the German resistance Helmut von Moltke, who was part of the Chrysau Circle, smuggled their six weeks that integrate Britain and tens of them. thousands of copies were dropped over German cities by the RAF with a new heading Manifesto of the Munich students. Those leaflets had much broader reach than what Hans and Sophie even ever would have anticipated. And then today they're honored in Germany. They're honored as what we all should have been doing. That's the way the German people view them.

There are streets and schools named after them. Shoal sibling school is one of the most popular school names in Germany. And there was this poll, this German TV channel, polled people asking for the 10-grade Germans of all time. Hans and Sophie took fourth place above Bach, Gerta, and Einstein. So that's how they're remembered. Holy cow. That's actually great. Wow. Well, you know, just to get back to the fact that they were motivated by the Christian faith, I'm just so fascinated because that's the thing that, you know, whenever we have heroes like this, whether it's in the civil rights movement or the abolitionist movement or in the movement against Hitler, we often forget that most of them were. We, we often forget that most of them

were motivated by their Christian convictions. And you're saying that that was the case with the four leading members of the White Rose Movement, even though they were Russian Orthodox, Catholic, and Lutherans. Yes, it very much, it was really their deep faith in God was very much what motivated them. They believed that God's heart was breaking over what was going on, and they cannot remain silent witnesses of these evil atrocities, and that was not what God would have them do. And reading their letters, especially the letters,

they wrote on the Alec Alexander Smorrell, who was executed later than Hans and Sophie, the letters he wrote to his family during the months before. Just speak of this very deep faith in God. It's to me very humbly and moving to read about. Many of those who stood in the dock facing Roland Freisler spoke of God in their last statements. And it is an amazing thing because those words have been captured. And it's always interesting to me to think that Roland Friesler had to listen to that. It's amazing that there was enough legality still that that judge, that monster, had to listen to the statements of these people.

If people want to find out more about the White Rose movement, what are some other books that you might suggest after they have read your fascinating novel? Well, there's a wonderful book called At the Heart of the Right Rose, the letters and diaries of Hans and Sophie Scholl. And there is also another wonderful book called Sophie Scholl and the White Rose by Annette Dunbach and Jud Newborn that I would highly recommend. And there are a few others. There are also some really wonderful ones for younger readers out there as well.

A noble treason is another really good one. And so there are a lot of really great resources out there that I studied, especially for people just wanting to get to know them. Okay. But first, people have to read the White Roaston. Rose resists. Amanda, I'm just so happy to think that you have written this book. Is there a website for you? Yes, there is. It's Amandabarrett.net. Amanda Barrett.net. Okay, people can figure that out. The book is the White Rose Resists. Again, congratulations. Thank you so much for your time. This is

terrific. Thank you so much, Eric. This has been an absolute pleasure.