The Eric Metaxas Show - Arthur Brooks

Episode Date: July 15, 2020

 Harvard professor Arthur Brooks clears up some of the confusion surrounding the phrase, "Love thy enemies," and also explains the film project in which he's involved, "Fishing with Dynamite."

You know, comparing Eric Mataxis to any other radio show host is a lot like comparing apples and, oh, I don't know. Oranges, perhaps? Yes, that's it. Precisely, oranges. Ripe, luscious, supple oranges, dripping with sticky sweet juice. Another day or two, and they'll be rotten and inedible. But today, oh, they're glorious and inviting. Just like Eric.

And now, Orange's you glad he's here? Eric with Texas. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Arkmataxis show. This is our one. probably to be followed by hour two. I don't know who arranges that, but it happens just about every day. We have two hours and the second hour follows the first. And by the way, we've got a lot of news here. First of all, in hour one, which is in a couple of minutes, I'm talking to Arthur Brooks.

He used to be with the American Enterprise Institute. He's now teaching at Harvard. And I have to tell you, he is always fascinating to talk to. He spoke at the National Prayer Breakfast this past year, and he talked about loving your enemies. And I want to ask him about that because the president said he didn't agree with what Arthur said. And then we're going to talk an hour two to our friend Jack Barski.

Now, Jack Barski, he's been on this program. He was a KGB agent. We're not making this up. It's an unbelievable story. We had him on the program a while ago. He tells all the details. But we wanted to talk to him about what he sees

as a former dedicated communist now living in the United States and being a Christian and loving American freedom. And I'm having some dental work done during the program. So if you hear me drilling or anything, just realize that I'm having some dental work done. Okay, now, Chris, can you hear this drilling? I can't. Yeah, that's good.

It's part of the fun of living in New York. You have someone is mining into the bunker. Someone is mining into the bunker. You found you. You have some chicken news, do you not? Yes, we do. So we bought eight chickens over the weekend. One represent all eight members of our family.

So six little ones and two kind of larger little ones. They're called pullets, which means they don't have the down anymore. They have feathers. So they're a couple months older than the little ones. And so they can be outside in a coop. once they have their feathers to protect them. Still hear this noise? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the KGB. You're going to have Jack Barski on later than trying to. I feel like crawling out the window and saying, hey, guys, we're trying to do a radio show. I'm dating myself, but it reminds me of Heraldo trying to get into Alcapon Safe. You remember they had to drill into it? They get in here.

Well, they're working on the building. Yeah. And they thought that they should start at the room where, where we, do the radio show because just to get it out of the way. So I honestly kind of wonder what they do. Maybe they're refacing the bricks or something. I don't know. But, you know, it adds a sense of fun to our program.

But we were talking about chickens and I think people confused me. Yeah. So anyway, the news of the day is we built a coop last week. And yesterday was the first day that we put the kind of more grown-up chickens, the pullets, into their coop. So we transferred them to their new home. So they slept out there overnight, and we woke up this morning to make sure they weren't eaten by anything, and we built a secure enough coop, and they were still alive.

So that's great news. They're still alive. Wow. That's great. By the way, my chipmunk is doing very well as well. I've got a pepper for him for today. My question is, have he gotten any eggs so far? When do you expect to get eggs?

I don't get eggs from my chipmunk, I'm sorry. Yeah, we get eggs. We'll get eggs in a couple weeks. They're still not quite mature enough yet, but we're probably looking for a couple weeks, and then for the younger ones, it'll probably be closer to like November or something like that. Why don't you give us a Tucker Carlson update, by the way?

I was on Tucker Carlson two nights ago, and I've never, ever, ever, ever gotten so much positive feedback from anything I ever did on TV. So we've posted it on social media. I hope everyone goes to my website. I'm sorry, not my website. Goes to Twitter, goes to Parlor, goes to Gab, goes to Facebook, goes to Instagram, and shares it. And also, I'm sending out an email today.

We don't normally send out emails on Wednesday, but I thought this is a good opportunity. Because I've never gotten such positive feedback. I think a lot of people are thrilled that somebody like me was talking about what I talk about. People don't normally talk about that on TV. You got a little metaphysical. Yeah. Yeah, I think what you were also suggesting is that American churches have to clean up their act before election day and get involved in what's going on here because there is evil this time around. It really is.

I just can't believe this noise. I'm so sorry. So did you get radio, though, isn't it? Yeah, did they give you any warning that they were going to be doing renovations, were their big signs up? Were they, you know, were they wearing masks? I only give you warning in the really, really high rent buildings. For writers, we can't afford to live in those places. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. So I guess the saying, like, you know the drill is literal for you this week. Like, hey, you guys, you know the drill. And now you really know it. You wish you didn't know it. I didn't even hear what you just said. That's how noisy it here.

You see, people think that we're faking it, that we're not doing this in our bunkers. I mean, who would make this up? This actually happened at Socrates in the same. city. We did an event with Alice von Hildebrand. Yeah. Hey, shut up. We did an event. Hey, we did an event with Alice Fondhildebrand. And she's a very soft-spoken older woman. And there was drilling just like this literally like right behind her. And we had to go outside and like slip the guys of 20 to shut up for for 10 minutes. Yeah. No, that's a great idea. Maybe I'll do that for the next segment. Well, Eric, there's a good chance that you might, you know, the silver lining could be if they find

oil upstairs. And I'm pretty sure you get a share. You get some ground rights or air rights. I'm not sure which way it's up. They'll find oil if they drill into his refrigerator. Canola, Landau Lakes, or no, not Landau Lakes. I don't know what is happening. Maybe James can cut out some of the worst parts of this noise. And then I'll go open the window and scream at these guys. It's like, hey, I'm going to be talking to a senator in five minutes. Could you shut up? This is really crazy. Yeah, right. Ted Cruz is supposed to be on this show tomorrow.

So hopefully this is going to work out. Yeah, tomorrow. Tomorrow, seriously. Yes, tomorrow is Senator Ted Cruz. Next week, we're hoping to get KT. McFarland back. David Barton, we're trying to get back. Bob Woodson, we're trying to get him back on the show. A lot of good people.

Larry Elder. And Eric taped an amazing hour with David Wood, the store, two hours actually and that story when that comes out is going to be uh that's miracle monday yeah you don't want to miss that one that is without any doubt one of the most stunning stories we've ever had on this program that's right up there with our friend leon uh robert davis i mean it's the story you just think is he making it up he's not making it up it is truly truly stunning and it's the first time you've actually and this is no joke you interview a psychotic right uh a psychotic person that that besides us well no is he he calls it something else it was a psychosis what did he

call himself um well he did refer to himself as that you know he was someone who was psychotic when he was younger no no no it's actually he's he is a psychopath another word psychopath right psychopath yeah not we got that cleared up we're waiting for the drill we we stop because we think the drilling is going to begin again. The reality is there is no drill. It's just all in our heads and we all happen to be hearing it at the same time. Oh, gosh. What a bunker video.

I wonder what Uncle Ben has to say about this. Uncle Ben's converted rice. There is none. It's getting wacky up in here, isn't it? It's getting too wacky. Speaking of bobbleheads or speaking of effigies and things, look, it's the founding fathers. It's my own Mount Rushmore.

Look. Um, seriously? Yeah. We have contacted Mike Lindell about bobbleheads. Maybe you guys should talk about that. Yeah, no, but we have bobbleheads on its way, so we're going to have a little fun with that. And, uh, you know, you could go to the website right now and use the code, Eric, and get your own bobblehead or pillows or sheets or mattress toppers.

Yeah. I think for our listeners, we're out of time. Maybe a James can, can tighten this up. a little bit. We've gone overtime a little bit. Maybe he can cut out some of the worst of the noise. When we come back, we're going to have far less drilling with Arthur Brooks. Stick around. Hey, the folks. Welcome back. Yes, as promised, Arthur Brooks, formerly with the American Enterprise Institute, now a professor at Harvard. Arthur, welcome. Thank you, Eric. How are you? It's good to see you in your home.

I'm fine. How do you know this is my home? How do you know? This is my home? How can you tell? Just because my books are all over. Yeah. I want to talk to you about a number of things. I know that you have just, you know, you've done this career change. I associate you inescapably with AEI. Tell us what you're going to be doing up at Harvard.

Well, I associate myself with AEI, quite frankly. I was president for 11 years. And just getting the tattoos off my body is, you know, quite a task, I have to say. that honestly. I had planned to be the president of AEI for a decade. And the reason is I had done a lot of work as an academic in the past. I taught at Syracuse for a long time before that. And I found that chief executives shouldn't stay in their jobs for about more than a decade

because you become less effective. It's not good for your organization. Of course, my time came due. And I thought, uh, did I say 10? I've been 15. But I did. I actually, you know, I ate my own cooking. And so I went on and I moved up to Harvard to get back into creative work.

and so I've been writing, speaking, and teaching about public leadership and mostly about happiness. That's really what I'm trying to build the next self-improvement movement. I know that you're all about that. Well, I have to say the idea that Harvard has you, as a professor, makes me very happy. As you know, I don't have a very high view of the Ivy League, having attended one of those universities. So in all seriousness, knowing that you are there, it's music to my ears. So I'm glad that you're there. I want to talk to you about a number of things,

but principally, a new film called Fishing with Dynamite. If you don't mind, tell my audience, what is Fishing with Dynamite? Fishing with Dynamite is a new movie. I'm not the star, I'm not the producer. I just appeared in the movie, but it was made by the business school of the University of Virginia about new approaches, which aren't new at all. I mean, they're in the gospel, for Pete's sake, about how to conduct ourselves in a market economy,

how we can protect capitalism, not letting it be spoiled by our worst impulses. It's a very nice movie because it gives a bunch of different perspectives on people from both the left and on my case from the right that says basically morals need to come before markets, something that you've always talked about, I think really eloquently, and that your listeners really agree with.

Well, it's funny you say that because literally last night I happened in bumbling around, around, you know, the streaming options on my TV, to come across an hour-long, you know, kind of a documentary, really, about Karl Marx. And I realized that even though I know that capitalism in its best form is, you know, spectacular, I didn't know so much about Marx. And it was so interesting in a way to go back to the beginning and to rethink why would somebody like Karl Marx see capitalism as the enemy, as the enemy of working class people. And it's

not as though he didn't have a point because the capitalism that he was criticizing is the same kind of capitalism that you and I would criticize. It's not God's idea of capitalism. It's capitalism perverted. It's capitalism where you have people that are, in fact, exploiting workers. And so we're living at a time again where the case needs to be. be made. You're always making it, but the fact that this film fishing with dynamite makes the case so that people really understand what is going on and why socialism for all its heart doesn't work. Yeah, that's right. It's funny because the word capitalism was coined by Karl Marx as to cast aspersions at the idea that we would have a religion and that we would reward

people because they own stuff as opposed to selling their labor. Now, most of our viewers and listeners are not economists, thank God. And one of the things that's worth pointing out is that Marxism, the fundamental reason that it fails is based on a mistake. And the mistake is what Marx thought of is what he called the labor theory of value. The labor theory of value is that all value

can be denominated in terms of the units of labor that go into a good or service. Now, that's a mistake because in point of fact it's not just labor, it's also capital. It is, you know, the machines and the education and the expertise. and all that stuff that goes into the production process. So he was just simply wrong about that.

And you can forgive him. It was in the middle of the 19th century that it came up with this. But that continues to be the main problem that socialists and even more Marxists have. It's all about units of labor. And anybody who owns something and tries to profit from their ownership of something is doing something fundamentally immoral. We don't agree with that. However, we do have to remember that there's dignity that comes from all work.

There's purpose and meaning that actually has to go in. to rewarding people for their hard work and personal responsibility. And when we don't take that into account, we get into big trouble and capitalism gets into big trouble. Well, I was fascinated because, you know, typically people will look at the worst examples of the thing they're trying to criticize. And he was, you know, studying hard in the reading room there in wherever it was in London, looking for cases.

And, you know, he would find plenty things that there were, you know, nine-year-olds working 15-hour days and genuinely being exploited. There's no doubt about that. But then to to cast all of that kind of labor as exploitation is fundamentally wrong. But it's valuable to understand what we're dealing with, we, you know, who are proponents of capitalism, to understand that there was a time when these things went on. There was a time when we needed labor unions, when we needed to push back against people. It's the more you know, the more you can understand this. But right now, Arthur, I just was going to say, what do you, what do you suppose would make it so possible that people could be talking openly about socialism? I mean, 10 years ago, nobody was talking

openly about socialism, at least the Democrats that I know were not talking openly about it. What has happened? Well, what's happened is sort of inevitable. And how this happens in the 10 to 15 years after a financial crisis. So if you look back in history, and believe it or not, you know, I have data on 120 years and 800 elections over, you know, 20 advanced economies. And every time there's a financial crisis in advanced economies, twice a century, basically. And the 15 years following that, you get the same kind of dynamics where people start to question market economies, question the moral and practical basis of capitalism. And you get this populism that we typically see on both left and right in countries all over the world.

It's not a terrible thing. I mean, you know, it's a lot of it's misbegotten. The idea that we would become, you know, a democratic socialist country, it's a problem. It's not a, but questioning the basis on which we actually treat each other economically, that's a good thing to do. Because if we forget, then we forget our basic values. Remember, economics is downstream from culture. Morals always do have to come before.

markets. I mean, most of the people who are watching us today have religious beliefs that tell us that. They believe, or at least they're descended from a Judeo-Christian conception of what the best life is made up. And a lot of people are very serious practicing Christians. And we know, those of us who are Christians, we know that if markets come before morals, everything is upside down and everything will be used to the bad, not for the good. Just lately, this is something I've been thinking about because it came to my attention to a guest I had on the show. I ought to have known it before, but I spoke to Ethan Gutman about China

and how they have Uyghur Muslims working as slave laborers. And he brought to the attention that Nike in particular was using some of that slave labor. And I thought to myself, how is it possible that we have to revisit something like? this. I mean, if somebody told me that something could make me a lot of money, but I needed to understand some of it was being made by Jews who were enslaved by the Nazis. I would reject that profit as utterly immoral. And we need to be thinking about that with regard to China in general,

with regard to other nations in general. And people seem to be worshiping the free market without any sense that it has this moral component. Yeah. Well, and there's individual decisions that people make too. So that's the supply side of the economy, where Nike or whoever would be doing something because it makes money and not raising a moral objection, whereas they're not, they're thinking about the market, they're not thinking about the morality, but all the people who are watching and listening to us, they have their own decisions too. And I'll give you a perfect example. It's legal to make pornography, but pornography is bad. It's bad for society. It's bad for women. It's bad for culture. It's bad for our brain. It's bad. It's like poison gas, man. And what happens?

every time somebody watching or listening to us clicks on a pornographic website, they're sending a market signal to sending a dollar vote to this part of the economy. That's perfectly legal, but perfectly wrong as well. Each of us is accountable to our own morality, not to actually pop up some of the markets. The problem is not capitalism. The problem is the soul, and that's always been the case. Yeah. No, it's just, it's so good to talk to you about this because I really do think that it's little spokes. of and it was something that I've only really thought about more recently in the in the last

few years but how without morality without thinking these things through we really are promoting things that that we wouldn't promote if we really did think about it so we need to think about it we need to talk about it we're going to continue the conversation with you folks I'm talking to Arthur Brooks the movie is fishing with dynamite don't go away It's knowing that your door is always open and your path is free to walk. President Trump has a huge announcement for his top supporters. We'll be celebrating the 2020 Republican National Convention this summer, and he wants you to enter for your chance to join him at the convention.

If you win, the team will cover the flight, hotel, and give you VIP passes for yourself and a guest. All you have to do is text Metaxus to 88022. Today for your chance to meet President Trump at the convention. Again, that's METAXAS to 880. 022 to enter to win this once in a lifetime opportunity to be a special guest paid for by Donald J. Trump for president. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Arthur Brooks. Have you heard of him? Did you know that he spoke

at the National Prayer Breakfast? Was that this last February? Am I remembering this correctly? Yeah, it feels like it was about, you know, the year, I don't know, 2000, maybe 1900. It's hard to say. No, it was after I spoke. I spoke there in 2012, and you spoke recently, but it does seem like this year. It was this year, but it was, yeah, it was, and it was amazing because it was one month before the lockdown started, and we didn't know. Thank God. I mean, it was 4,000 people packed into the, the Hillton and then Washington, D.C. I've been there, of course, and that room is just insanely huge.

I've never seen a room where you could fit 3,500 people at tables. Like, it's all room. I mean, whatever. But I want to talk to you a little bit about your speech. I've spoken about this on the air, but I've never spoken to you about it directly. You gave a wonderful speech, as I expected. And you talked about loving one's enemies. And right after you gave your speech and the president got up, I just laugh.

I find his president very entertaining, Arthur. Like whatever he says usually absolutely cracks me up, as he says, sort of what everybody's thinking, but he has the self-confidence to say it. Most people, I don't think I'm going to bring that up. I don't want to look foolish. But he actually looks over you and says, I don't know if I can agree with that, Arthur, or something like that. I mean, I had just quoted Matthew 544, by the way.

So when he says, I'm not sure he was actually disagreeing with Jesus, but that's just an aside. Here's the thing. This is what I wanted to bring up. I don't think that he was. In other words, what I think is the case, at least this is my interpretation, but for years I've actually thought this, is that whenever one brings up things like that, most people don't understand it. Most people think forgiving your

enemies or loving your enemies means agreeing with them in their evil. And nobody really explains it. And so most people go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that sounds like extra credit Christianity to me. It doesn't make sense to me. And nobody's ever been able to explain it to me. That's what I think people are thinking. In other words, they don't know what to think, but they know that no one's explained it to them because it takes some explaining, obviously. And this president is the kind of a person

who just says that. And I think, you know, millions of people go, yeah, like, I don't get it. So I actually found it, I just found it very entertaining. Yeah, no, I wrote about it later in the Washington Post because the Washington Post asked me to comment on it. I said, look, here's my big take on it. Whether he's disagreeing with me or the gospel, the point is, I got up in front of 4,000 people and the whole country in the President of the United States, and I said my peace. And then I, and the President of the United States sat there

and listened to me. And then I sat down, and the President of the United States got up, and he said his peace, and I listened to him. God bless America. That's my friends, this is the competition of my days. This is what we should be celebrating, not, you know, this sort of angel, on the head of a pin, discussion about this and the interpretation of that. This is a great thing that in this country, I mean, I could actually say something that the President of the United States disagrees with in his presence. He took no umbrage. He took no offense.

He said, I disagree with you. And then I was able to sit and talk and listen to him. What a great country. Is there any other country in the world where, you know, I went back to Harvard. I still had my job. My family felt safe. I mean, any other country in the world, I'd be big trouble, not in America. It's obvious that you're nothing but a white supremacist, and I just want my audience to know that I see that, okay? And I'm calling you out. And if there are any Arthur Brooks statues out there, I'll be the first to take him down, Arthur. I'm just telling you right now. But seriously, folks. That's my bus behind you, Eric. That's my bus. I can tell. Oh, that's George Washington. Sorry.

But you, listen, while we're on the subject, I have a candle, a beautiful candle of Benjamin Franklin, my favorite enlightenment theorist. I like it. And he's bald. So, you know, there is hope for us bald guys. And he's pretty bald. He didn't wear a wig. I do want to say, you know, first of all, what you said, how true and how beautiful and how wonderful. And I think that part of the problem today is that people really are, they're nitpicky. You put it, you said angels on the head of a pin, better way of putting it. But to try to find what someone has said with which one disagrees.

and then, you know, blowing it up into, inflating it into an essay, rather than trying to understand what you have in common, and then maybe talking about the thing that you disagreed with. I mean, I think the mainstream media's response to the president's speech at Mount Rushmore was an example of that. I thought, my goodness, he said so much that's wonderful. I could see how people on the left might quibble with some of what he said. But we're living in tough times, Arthur.

I think that's my point. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you made a very good point a minute ago, which is, what does it mean to love your enemies? It doesn't mean to agree with your enemies. It doesn't mean to give in to your enemies. To love your enemies means to not treat people with contempt to try to persuade your enemies. Nobody's ever been insulted into agreement. So that's not the right way to do it.

But at the same time, giving in to them and acting as if they're right when you don't think that they are, that's actually not even an expression of law. love. That's the truth of the matter. And so we're in a country right now. The big problem that we're have is, you know, if you run any company, which a lot of us have, is that you've got three tools when there's disagreement. You've got coercion. You've got negotiation and you have persuasion. Well, persuasion is the highest art when there's disagreement. And we're in a moment in our country where everybody's trying to coerce everybody else. Everybody's a bully. Everybody's trying to beat everybody else up. And so when you see something like the president's speech,

where there's something to disagree with and something to agree with, you try to coerce everybody else into saying that it's completely wrong because of the one thing you're disagreeing with. That's an ineffective tactic. And that's what I call cancel culture. I just coined that term. You feel free to use it. We're going to be right back, folks. I'm talking to Arthur Brooks. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Arthur Brooks of Harvard University. Do you see how open-minded I am. Ah, Hurtz, are welcome. It's wonderful always to talk to you. I guess I'd love to go back to, well, to the two things we've been discussing. First of all, your speech at the National Prayer Breakfast, when you talked about loving one's enemies, I really do think that the president and so

many people don't understand that. I sent a tweet out recently about praying for one's enemies. Right. And you get two responses, both of which are wrong, often. One is, oh, I don't have any enemies. Well, you think, oh, so you're better than Jesus because he's the one that said, you know, love your enemies, whatever. Like, of course we have enemies, ideological enemies, people that want to kill you if they get the opportunity.

So, of course, we have enemies, number one. And then people who say, look, I don't want to love my enemies. They basically don't understand that it doesn't mean agreeing with the evil or the wrong. It's something else. And I just feel like we haven't really explained that. And I wasn't really surprised when the president said, I'm not sure if I agree with that, because I think he, like many people, just doesn't understand what a radical concept it is,

to love what means, to pray for one's enemies. So talk a little bit about that, for example, what does it mean to pray for one's enemies? I mean, it's a lot of people say, I could never pray for my political opponent or something like that. they don't really understand a few things. Yeah, well, you know, when Jesus Christ said that, he radically changed the course of culture. In point of fact, this is the secret weapon that we have. It's the source of the interior source of strength that we have.

One thing that weakens us is when we can only see somebody as a one or two-dimensional character. When you see somebody with whom you're opposed as completely bad, incapable of saying something that's correct, you can't learn from that person, and so therefore you're that much weaker. Second is you can't be the kind of person that you wish that your enemy were. You effectively make yourself into a one or two-dimensional character as well. You objectify yourself effectively by me being all right and that person being all wrong.

The third point is one that Abraham Lincoln was making when he said, I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends in his first inaugural. This is a famous thing, and people say, well, what does he mean? is he trying to really destroy these people? The Dalai Lama has said this as well, you know, and he's a Buddhist, so he's a pacifist. What they meant when they said that, what Abraham Lincoln met when he said that, is that ordinarily, in most cases, when I destroy, by destroying my enemies, I'm actually destroying the illusion that that person was my enemy in the first place. This is somebody with whom I have big differences.

And he met this largely in the context to people who share his country, people who were fellow citizens. People talk about their enemies ideologically in the United States. Okay, these are people who disagree with us, but come on, these are Americans that we're talking about. This is not ISIS that we're talking about. The thing that really shocks me today is the public opinion polling that shows that Republicans will have greater animosity toward Democrats than they actually have toward America's national security foes and vice versa, that Democrats feel the same way about Republicans. Those are my true enemies. These are the people who should be effectively pushed into the sea, as Hamas says about the Israelis. That's a big mistake. And so your point is really well taken. Don't agree with the people with whom you disagree. That's an insult to them.

That betrays their dignity. But pray for them. And think about the fact that you do love them because love is their due if you are, if you believe that you're made in God's image. Well, you know, people would immediately bring up something like, well, do you love Hitler? And I think to myself, well, it depends on whether somebody really understands what that word means. first of all, the Greek word is agape, so we're not talking about warm feelings, but it means treating someone as you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes. And somebody who cannot conceive of being as wicked as Hitler or being wicked or doing anything wrong, obviously doesn't

have much imagination and obviously doesn't have a biblical view of things, which says that we are all sinners divided from God because of what we have done. I guess that brings us back to to the woke mobs, there are a lot of people today pointing fingers at others and saying that everything can be solved by demonizing others, which is, to me, the exact opposite of loving one's enemies is you demonize someone and effectively dehumanize them. That's actually the better word. You dehumanize someone. That is precisely the opposite of seeing them the way God sees them. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, it's also horribly ineffective. It actually doesn't get the job done according to your people's own standards. What are we trying to do effectively? We know perfectly that we're not going to win through pure power in the political process in the United States. There's just no chance, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, conservative, or liberal. We're going to have to live together. We're going to have to have different opinions and get along as fellow citizens. And the only way that we're going to make progress, you and I are more than, you and I are more than, you. conservative side. The only way that we're going to make progress is by convincing other people,

by persuading other people. Once again, sitting on the coercion part of the spectrum is not going to get the job done because it's inherently creating more enemies. They're going to like you less. They're going to be less likely to be persuaded. And sooner or later, they're going to have the power. It's an exercise and futility. It's an outburst, an outrage that's sort of childish in its way. And it's happening on both the left and the right. Everybody watching and listening to needs to remember that if you try to insult your way out of a problem, you're going to get more disagreement, you're not going to get less. And sooner or later, it's going to come back and get you. So be practical. Even if you can't be moral at this moment, even if you can't live the gospel at

this moment, at least don't eviscerate your own cause by trying to insult people into agreement. I have to say, of course, I agree with you. If it worked, I'd be all for it, but it doesn't work. it ends up backfiring. The movie Fishing with Dynamite, that was originally how we came to book you on the program. Tell us in just a few seconds because we'll have another segment. But just tell my audience what that is. It's a documentary, first of all. It's a documentary film about the way that we're conducting market economies today.

It's very, very pro-markets. But it helps us to remember that markets that are unbridges, from morals will wind up giving us things that we don't want. It'll wind up creating the situation that we currently have, which is people thinking that we should get rid of market economies entirely. And it reminds us that reconsidering our own values is always a good thing to do. All right. When we come back, final segment with Arthur Brooks, folks. This is important stuff. Thanks for listening. Please share this with anyone you can think of. Great expectations.

Everybody's watching you. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm talking to Arthur Brooks of Harvard University. I spit on Harvard. Actually, no, Arthur, welcome back. People often assume, you know, if there's some Harvard comes up, they go, oh, you're a Yale man. And I think, no, I don't have much warm feeling for university.

I'm perfectly happy talking to people to Harvard. I think that it's wonderful news that you are. are teaching at the Kennedy School. And you said also at the business school. Yeah, it's great. I love being there. The business school and the Kennedy School are, you know, they have all different kinds of people. There's a real competition of ideas. And I'm delighted to actually be spending my post-AEI time doing my creative work, writing, teaching, and speaking. These days, I'm not out on the, you know, you and I are not on airplanes giving speeches all over the place. I was doing 175 a year, which came to the screeching halt. And so now I'm actually working on my

creative portfolio. I've got a podcast called The Art of Happiness. I have a new column in the Atlantic called How to Build a Life. And I'm writing a new book. I have time. It's kind of nice, isn't it? That's, I have to say, I agree. For me, generally speaking, it's been a sort of a blessed kind of Sabbath. I never minded traveling, but it's been, it's been really interesting to be, to be home. I guess I want to, I want to talk to, continue talking to you about the more moral side of capitalism or of economics in general. I mentioned earlier that, you know, well, maybe I didn't go all the way. I was just thinking that, you know, back when Clinton was pushing most favored nation status for China, you had, I always say this, and I say in my book,

if you can keep it, you had kind of a, what I think of as a classic liberal naivete toward evil, usually of the totalitarian kind. And then you had a classic conservative naivete toward the possibility of accomplishing things with the market alone, without the morality involved. And of course, Reed enters into this because I think both people on the left and on the right thought, hey, that's a huge market.

So maybe we'll turn a blind eye toward some stuff if we need to. I think that that chicken has come home to roost. It is grown. It is now a 10 billion pound chicken. The branch is not holding it and we're all going to die as it cracks on our heads. I am really grieved right now by the misunderstanding in America about what totalitarianism is and what it does and how many Americans just, we don't understand our own freedom and celebrate our own freedom, much less stand up for the people of Hong Kong. Yeah. I know that the market is really responsible for creating the monster that is today, China. And I guess I wonder if in your circles people are talking about the moral side of the market.

They are. I mean, it's people are talking, people should always. And, you know, people like you always have and people in my world as well. And, you know, the whole concept of most favored nation status for China, it wasn't entirely cynical. The truth is the United States is a nation that's based on on enlightenment values, on the competition of ideas and pluralism, and that downstream from that, we had market economies that worked really well where people are opposing on different signs of a business proposition, but who didn't kill each other and everybody got richer, show the invisible hand. And so the whole idea was that it would work in reverse. If we could get the invisible hand, then we would get the enlightenment values, but it doesn't work that way. It starts with enlightenment values and goes that direction.

We kind of found that out the hard way. Now we have to make a decision about actually what we want to subsidize, because when you subsidize something, you get more of it. And right now we're subsidizing totalitarian values in China, and it's a big mistake. It doesn't mean we have to hate the Chinese. It doesn't mean we can't reward them when they do good things, but we have to be very serious about what we're subsidizing. I want to continue this conversation with you.

We're at the end of our one today. but perhaps we can continue this conversation on the other side. Folks, don't go away. You can see us, see it on YouTube at the Aircomtaxis show channel in case it's not carried on your local broadcast airwaves.