The Eric Metaxas Show - Biblical Justice vs. Social Justice (Encore)

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Biblical Justice vs. Social Justice | A Panel with Voddie Baucham, Charlie Kirk, Eric Metaxas

Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. Did you ever see the movie The Blobs starring Steve McQueen? The blood-curdling threat of The Blob. Well, way back when Eric had a small part in that film, but they had to cut his scene because the blob was supposed to eat him. But he kept spitting him out. Oh, the whole thing was just a disaster. Anyway, here's the guy who's not always that easy to digest.

Eric the Texas! Hey there, folks. is Monday, September 22nd. Today I'm flying home from Phoenix, where I was at the Charlie Kirk Memorial. I'll be talking about that on tomorrow's program. But today, we've got something kind of special here. Four years ago, I was on a panel. This was a Salem Media panel.

I think it was at NRB with Charlie and Lerner. Vote Baucom and I, the three of us, we're discussing biblical justice versus social justice. So today, we're going to play that for you. Owen Strawn, who's a friend, he's been on the program. He was the moderator. He introduces it. So he's the fourth voice in this conversation. So we're going to play that for you in our two.

last year I did a short interview with Erica Kirk, now the widow of our friend Charlie. We're going to play that so you can hear her. She is just so delightful. And so we're going to be playing that for you. And then at the end of our two today, we're going to be playing the conversation that I had with Charlie back last December at Amfest. It's amazing to think that that is 10 months ago. And I think that's the last public conversation that I had with Charlie. So today we've got a lot of Charlie Kirk for you.

As I say, the first part of what we're going to play for you right now was a panel from four years ago with Vody Balcom and me and Charlie. And it's moderated by Owen Strand. And then an hour two, we've got a segment with Erica Kirk. And then another interview that I did from just last December with Charlie. Chris, what else? What are we? Yeah, I was just thinking, you know, the conversation of biblical justice versus social justice, you know, from four years ago, it's kind of a time capsule for going, you know, archaeologically through the layers of these social conversations. And really, you know, social justice is framed and rooted in some, it's very subjective.

And, you know, it's about, you know, how you think you were or perceived you were. oppressed or or you know it's it's marxist garbage and here you have three people talking about it four years ago and and here we are well also want to say folks please check out my YouTube channel a lot of these interviews with Charlie and other stuff are on my YouTube channel so go to Eric Mattaxas YouTube channel okay we'll leave it there so here is the conversation Vody Balcom Charlie Kirk and me. God bless you. Thank you all for being here. My name is Owen Strand. I have a new book coming out with Salem called Christianity and Wokeness. I'm a provost and professor of theology at Grace Bible

Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas. So that's what I do to pay the bills on a daily basis and longtime supporter of Salem. So thankful for Ed Atzinger and Stu Epperson, Rich Riddle, and so many others who have done heroic work in the public square and beyond. to strengthen so many. So it's a joy to be the host and moderator of this panel. I have quite a task ahead of me because the three gentlemen joining me are all very gifted and will have much to say on the subject of biblical justice and social justice. The first person I'd like to welcome is Voddy Baccombe. Voddy Bacum is the dean, yes. Thank you. Geology at African Christian University in Zambia and a prolific author just published the book,

Fault Lines with Salem Books, a bestseller, and man, such an important voice. So thank you for being here on the panel. My pleasure. All right. Next up, we have Charlie Kirk. Join me in welcoming Charlie Kirk to the stage. Charlie is the founder of Turning Point USA,

which has played such an important role in especially winning over many millennials and younger people to the conservative cause. If he ever does a rap CD, he could call himself Young Buckley, maybe. So we're thankful to have Charlie on the panel, and he's also, of course, a Salem Radio Network host with the Charlie Kirk show. And last but not least, Eric Mataxis, join me in welcoming Eric Mataxis to the stage. Eric, of course, is the host of the Eric Mataxis show, best-selling author of Bonhofer and numerous books, famous, of course, for throwing down right in front of President Obama some years ago about the

need to be pro-life, just a glorious public moment and a very important figure in the public square. So gentlemen, welcome to the panel. Thank you for being here. And let's dive in. We're talking about biblical justice and social justice. And to kick it off, I want to ask you about your personal engagement with these subjects. But first, Vody, if you could give us a working, definitely, definition of each, of the distinction between social justice and biblical justice. Social justice is distributive justice. It's redistributive justice. It's based on the idea of equity, not equality, but equity, equal outcomes. So social justice is about distributing resources within a given community, culture, whatever, so that the various groups,

within that culture don't have disparate outcomes. Biblical justice, on the other hand, is about applying the righteous standard of God equally to all people in all circumstances. Thank you. Thank you. That's very helpful. They use a lot of the same terms, those who promote social justice, and yet there are distinct differences. Charlie, when did you first see these issues cropping up on campuses among younger folks or whoever in the culture and start to realize we need to make some distinctions here. Yeah, thank you and honored to be here and thank you to Salem. We've had a fun a couple months working together and we're going to have a lot more. So Phil and Dave and the whole Salem team. It's been great. I also want to say, Vody, you're our secret weapon, man.

I'm telling you. We need you in front of millions and millions and more people. We're going to make sure that happens. It's so important what you're doing. Super quick. I started, as soon as I got involved with the campuses, I realized this idea of social justice is the religion of most of secular America. And the most succinct way, I think I can describe it, is social justice is always changing, and biblical justice never changes.

And it's one of the world and one of the word. It's completely different. And social justice, will always lead you to a arc and a bend of totalitarianism, because there is no root, there is no anchor, there is no unchanging truth that guides you, therefore it's completely and totally relativistic based on the communicator's passions, the needs, wants, and desires of the audience, or even worse, how treacherous or deceitful the people that are using whatever power they have to try to enforce that social justice. This is a tricky subject for a lot of

Christians, and it's very front and center in the church because they use our desire and our heart and our yearning to help the less fortunate as a way to try and to try and overtake power structures to then actually deconstruct the sort of civilization that we know. And they're using it through kind of the most vulnerable way imaginable, which is Americans' inability to understand or communicate about race. And this is where Vody comes in so, you know, in such a helpful way. We've all talked about this, and they use the most effective tool of manageable, which is they call you a racist and they think you're going to shut up. And so I'll

stop there, but that's kind of where I started encountering. That's very important. We'll come back to that theme of how the card that is really dropped on the table is that of racist, if you even dare oppose critical race theory, wokeness, intersectionality. Eric, how did you start to see these issues, these subjects crop up? When did this first catch your attention? Well, Probably when I was an undergraduate at Yale in the early 1980s. Oh, I know I look young, but I was there. A major retail chain just canceled a massive order, leaving My Pillow with an overstock of the classic My Pillows,

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My mom and dad are European immigrants. My mom came from Germany, which became East Germany. So she was under Stalinist communism and was so grieved by it that she escaped East Germany at age 17. My father was in Greece when the communists tried to take over that country following World War II. So my parents, without even trying very hard, raised me to hate communism and understand it is evil. So when I got to Yale, I was astonished suddenly to be around the cultural elites who were basically anti-American, anti-Christian. And it's when I first began smelling this stuff, but I was too young and naive to really understand how bad it was.

And in my book, which was flashed on the screen, published by Salem Books, because he'll publish anything. I have to say, that's only half a joke, because a lot of other people won't publish some good stuff. And that's redounds to the benefit of Salem. Praise the Lord. Thank you for your courage in publishing truth. lot of people are cowards. But I guess I first noticed it then,

and it's the same thing. We understand what it is. It's cultural, Marxism, and if we want to just really go even be more clear, if we want to distill it, it is an anti-biblical, anti-God worldview.

Social justice is just one ex crescence, you know, one blister. It is just another way of expressing the same kind of thing. It's a deep philosophy, as Charlie said, it is a religion, it is evil. And like all things evil, they don't say, hey, we're evil. You know, Hitler didn't say, oh, I'm Satan's man, follow me. They have to borrow from the truth. They have to cannibalize reality, since the devil can't create. and they have nothing but the ability to twist the truth. So even the term social justice, let's face it, it's right out of 1984. It's a way to take something that sounds good,

and there's no way that they can do anything other than that, and it works, and it's our job to make sure that people understand what is happening. It's really a Marxist vision of seeing people. in either the oppressor or oppressed category marks, of course, is economic and his focus today. The focus is racial. So if you have white skin, you're an oppressor. If you don't have white skin or benefit from the system of whiteness, then you're oppressed. And as you alluded to, this has been seen in numerous countries over the years.

It's not new. Voddy, when did you first start seeing this crop up and start engaging it? I started really talking about these things, I guess, in 2004, 2005, I became aware really of the influence of Gramsian Marxism and the Frankfurt School. And, you know, during that time, 0405, 06, you know, people kind of looked at you and crossed their eyes when you mentioned these kinds of things. But then in 2008, during the election, when Obama's pension toward Marxism, you know, became public, people started to pay a little more attention by then. And now this is just more of a progression of the influence of those same ideologies,

but just with different manifestations. And I would also say that, you know, this oppressor-oppressed paradigm, it's not just about black and white. In America, it's about black and white. But having lived as an expat for the last six years overseas, when you look at this globally, whereas in America, the oppressor is white people, white males, also white male Christians,

but globally the oppressor is America. And so internationally, people, you know, here, you say to a white person, you need to check your privilege globally and internationally, people say to America, you need to check your privilege. And what's going on at the border has a lot to do with that as well. Because this is about these people who need to check their privilege, America, lowering their borders, so that we can redistribute among people who haven't had the privilege to be here.

That's important. What do you three see as the ultimate vision of social justice? I find it rather fuzzy in a lot of places, and yet I think there is a vision behind all this movement. How would you point us? I think there's probably three different ways you can answer that. And they all agree on the problem, the diagnosis, and the revolution. This is the question I get all the time. Charlie, what do these people want?

And the first category are people that actually think they're going to usher in a utopia. These are the useful idiots. These are your typical college students. They really believe that there's a way to eradicate private property. And this is what really has frustrated me with the church, is this whole thing centers on who are we as human beings? Are we nothing more than a collection of randomness or cells? Or are we the speaking beings, as Aristotle would say?

Are we made the image of God? And are we broken by nature? We need Christ to save us. That's a really important argument when you try to design a political system. When you try to design a political system and you understand that human beings are naturally likely to sin, then you're going to create a system that hopefully doesn't allow them to collectivize that sin and then destroy the kind of vocal minority, which is what the founding fathers did. They think that any problem in the world is because of the system.

not because of human beings. That's a really important point. If you go and ask college class, do you think human beings are naturally good or naturally bad, they think human beings are naturally good? That's where this whole kind of argument centers. So that's number one. It's the utopian types. Number two are the folks that quite honestly are nihilists. This is Nietzsche in its fullest possible in brightest colors. They are driven not by an end result, but instead by the passion and the enjoyment of watching systems burn down to the ground. This is something. something that is more prevalent than you might ever possibly imagine, especially amongst young people that are 18, 19, and 20 years old that have been taught that there is no beauty, there is no truth, there is no goodness, there is no wonder. So all there is is you that can possibly try to bring down the world down around you. This is best personified in a 15-second clip in one of the Batman movies where the Joker says some people just want to watch the world burn. That's exactly right. That is a portion of the activist base. The third part is honestly the most scary and this is where this is heading. which is the bend towards totalitarianism.

What happens when you have these massive movements is eventually they're going to splinter, they're going to fight, there will be chaos, they'll be disorder, and then a sociopathic narcissist is going to be able to charm them to give all of that collective power to one person or a small group of people, and then we're going to live under that form of totalitarianism or tyranny.

This almost always leads to a smaller and smaller of group of people controlling more where the people that thought they were actually going to have the power end up not having the power. And so I think it's not, It's somewhat useful to talk about those three different things, but they won't even be able to agree that amongst themselves. What they can agree, though, is what currently generally exists

is a cancer and a poison, and what they want to do is they want to, they want to put forward a chemotherapy type of shock and awe blitzkrieg on the American Republic and on Christianity, and they don't care the cost. They just want it gone, and what comes next, they'll figure out once we are no longer in power, because that's all they, That's all they say is true. I'm sorry, what? Did that make any sense?

Oh, it made some sense. Thanks, Eric. You know, honestly, I forgot the question. What was the question? The question is who is... Who's idea was it to do a 7 a.m. breakfast? And why is he's still among the living? The question is...

Was it you, Phil? Who is the best blazer up here? I think voting. I think there's no question about it. There's no question about it. He's rocking the sear-soaker. I'm not kidding. I don't remember the question. The question is, where is this all headed?

Oh, I'm sorry. I do remember the question. You know, it's important for us to understand, and this is what we're talking about here, what this is. What this is, you know, we have to kind of cut to the chase. What is this? It is a view utterly antithetical to scripture. You've seen it since the garden, and you've seen it in the French Revolution. We saw it at the Tower of Babel.

When men try to exalt themselves above God, or when they try to reach God in their own strength, it is a satanic project. Buckley always quoted somebody talking about immanentizing the Eschaton. I want heaven now. I don't want to go through the cross. That's stupid. I can do it. Let's do it. It is designed by reality itself, which God created to fail. It cannot succeed. But because we're living in a fallen and broken universe, we are designed to do this in our brokenness. And apart from Jesus, this is what people do, right? People talk about what do sinners do. They sin. That's what they do. And you can't really blame them. Apart from God's grace, that's what we do. And so it's only because God has inserted himself into history that we have the ability at times to do other things. And the United States of America is the time when in the history of the universe, human beings were able to take a biblical worldview and say, oh, yes, we are fallen, so we need as many checks

and balances as we can. We don't want power to be centralized at all. And they set that up. And then they said, and yet, because we believe that with God, we are capable of of great things. We will have this free market of ideas, economic free market, and if we can keep it, if we can keep the Republic, that will flourish. Of course, is just another version of the anti-God philosophy. But if you look back, in my Bonhoeffer book at one point, I talk about a place called Bielefeld, which was really a ministry place where people were ministering to him. handicapped people and schizophrenics and all kinds of people that the Nazis would say should be

terminated. And at the end of the day, you get those two views. One says it's Nietzsche, it is satanic, it says that if you can't produce, if you can't do what we need you to do, you're worthless. You have no intrinsic value. God doesn't exist, therefore you're not sacred, you're not made in his image. And that's basically it. And you see that more and more. And obviously, to the extent that people can sell that, they will sell it. And there are times in culture when the Christian faith is strong or when there are other forces that are partaking of the good, the true, and the beautiful, they're strong, and you're not able to get away with that.

So in America, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, you can only say so much. But as those forces wane, these forces come out of the closet, and just as Hitler was able to say things in 39 and 40 that he wouldn't dare say in 34, you're seeing people say increasingly absurd things. And so when you talk about what is the goal, I think it is really clear that some people, yeah, they're stupid enough to think you could build a utopia. Other people don't care. They want to burn it all down.

But the bottom line is we know where it goes. Where it goes, ultimately, is to the death camps. those who disagree with the satanic power have to be destroyed. They have no intrinsic value. And so it's really like everybody's taking a ride on the zeitgeist, and if you're not willing to go wherever that's going to take you, you need to die. You know, you're just using up fuel. And so we do need to understand.

It really boils down to two views. There's the kingdom of God, and there's this stuff. And I think we need to understand that the people who are, foolish enough or lost enough to be going along with that, you know, they're destroying themselves. And so I think it's really tempting to think of them as enemies. The enemy is the enemy because this really is a satanic project. And we have to be very clear that the two views have increasingly become clear. Thank you.

It strikes me in the context of Christianity, the church. that especially among my generation and younger, the phrase, neither left nor right has become very popular when it comes to third way. It's become very popular in evangelical circles to describe basically our political philosophy. We're about Jesus, as indeed all three of us are. So that's good, in my view. And yet this, oh, we're not of the left and we're not of the right, we just sort of keep our hands clean. There's no mud on our boots in the public square, and there's not supposed to be. Keep

them lily white and pristine. And I think that has had a real effect with regard to some. Why it's got to be white, man. We can't have black boots or brown boots. All got to have white boots, man. Yeah, yeah. Racial, man. Yeah, what he said. I was actually mocking them. I was trying to make fun of their

white boots, but we are in Texas. So, there's lots of boots. This neither left nor right philosophy, though, I think it's deadly, and I think it causes, especially younger people, to think, I don't need to even get my hands dirty at all

in the public square. What would you men say in response to that kind of line? I think one of the things that drives young people to that is their unwillingness to be confrontational. I've often said, you know, there is an 11th commandment. The 11th commandment is thou shalt be nice, and we don't believe the other 10.

And what these people are trying to do is avoid having to confront ideas that oppose them and to avoid debate, I mean, like real debate and real disagreement and discussion. We don't want that. We recoil from that. And one of the ways that you get around that is to not believe anything, to not stand for anything just to say I'm not that and I'm not that right because if I'm one of those things then I'll have to suffer the slings and arrows that come from the other side and I don't want to be about combat I don't want to be about confrontation which is one of the reasons that

we hate masculinity there is a war on masculinity right now and all of it all of it boils down to this same issue of, thou shalt be nice, and we don't think masculinity is nice. Obviously, I spend most of my time in the political world as a Christian, and I'm starting to do more and more things in the Christian world, spoken over 70 churches in the last year. I'm really shocked at how many young Christians, how weak they are, and just they have very little direction or purpose. They don't want to have any sort of confrontational conversations.

It says in Isaiah 1, let us reason together. But if you go back to the ancient Hebrew, it's let us debate together. Let's talk about this stuff. Let's show me your ideas. Well, I want the third way. So you're trying to say, you don't take stances on moral issues? Is that the new position of the skinny gene Christianity? No offense, Eric, because those are nice.

It's great. So, you'll get me back, I know. I guess. And so, look, Christ was 100% grace and 100% truth. and if all of a sudden we're not going to be clear about what the scriptures tell us on how to govern ourselves and how to live, then it really gets back to the true problem, which is watered down theology. And that is really what's going on here. And I've had the opportunity to dig into this a fair amount, by no means an expert.

But when it comes down to a lot of these Christians, if you really get down to it, all of a sudden they'll say, oh, yeah, it's an allegory. Ah, okay. So it's not the Word of God. It's a suggestion manual. Or it's a place of good stories. Now I get where we're coming from here. This is not the authority. It's a, it's part of your bibliography of your worldview. A book that is of comparable moral claim as Aristotle's ethics or Robin DiAngelo's white fragility or is it the Word of God. Is it something that says in First Peter that was given to us divinely that we must port? into and has an imprint on our heart. That's really what's going on here. And if we're, if we're having a political discussion and they say they want the third way, then they're picking and choosing from the Bible, like a buffet line that makes them feel good that actually doesn't say true things about our faith and about what we're supposed to do as Christians. Part of a megachurch pastors or whoever out there overfocused on evangelism. Now it's bad to

under-focus on evangelism, but if you act as though getting people saved is the only thing we're here on earth to do, you're an idiot. You're not reading the scripture. The fact of the matter is that if you over-focus on evangelism, what happens is you make people think, I cannot say anything ever unless it might help lead somebody to faith. And if I say anything controversial or that they might disagree with, that's bad for the witness. And I was hamstrung in that position for years myself. I just thought I've got to be careful. I don't want to be political because it's all about, you know, getting them safe, getting them safe, getting them safe. Well, at the end of the day, you have to trust truth and you have to trust that if I speak the truth, I am speaking God. And I think

we all have to understand. We've all seen idiots who drive people away from Jesus. And I'm looking at you, Jack Graham. So that's my love language. Now he knows. I love him more than any of you. But we've all seen that. And so the left and the culture lifts this up as a boogeyman that, oh, you don't want to be that guy who's driving people away.

He's the religious fanatic, right? Well, now we have the opposite thing. The guy who's so nice, who he's afraid to talk about truth. And in America, this is a particularly American issue. Bonhofer, when he came to America

in 1930, was kind of scandalized how everybody at Union Theological Seminary, which was woke 90 years ago, that everybody wanted to get along and get along. And he was like, well, what about truth? Because the Germans, you know, they don't have a problem with that. But America's, we want to be nice. We want to be nice. So every culture is uniquely blessed by God, but every culture has unique issues and possibilities of going wrong. And our problem in Erica is this wanting to be nice. And so when you wrap that together with this desire to get everybody saved, you tell people, don't get into politics, don't get into this, don't get into that. And it's the same old thing. Look, Wilberforce heard this,

okay? Wilberforce said, slavery is an abomination from the pit of hell, and it is my duty as a human being and as a believer to talk about it. And many people said to him, keep your faith private, okay? So they didn't even like him. But the point is, anytime these truth claims come up, It's divisive. It's this. It's that. But if you are an African slave, what would you want the Christians to talk about? Would you want them to talk that slavery is bad? Yes, you would say if you're any kind of a Christian, you better talk about that. You better, if you're a Jew and a box car going to Treblinka, you're thinking, I hope there's some Christians out there who'll be combative and speak out against the Nazi worldview. But there were Germans. in Germany saying it's only about evangelism. We don't want to bring up that divisive stuff. Romans 13. Hitler's appointed by God.

Even if he's doing bad stuff, we can't speak against it. There's just a concatenation of confusing ideas all building up into wherever you are in a given culture. But we have had plenty warnings before. We've seen it before when Christians say, I don't want to be divisive. And I'm just tell you a lot of good. German Christians said that. And they said, if we talk about this, we talk about that, it'll dampen our witness. Well, my attitude is your witness can go to hell and your fake evangelism to a fake gospel can go to hell. If you are not willing to stick up for the unborn or truth or whatever

it is, your Christianity is worthless to the people you claim to want to lead and you're the blind leading the blind. And the church needs to understand. It's not a choice between do I want to lead people to Jesus or do I want to talk about truth? If you don't understand those two things are one, you know, you're already lost. Amen. And, you know, I would just say to bring these things together, this is about a poor theology because you have a problem with divisiveness if you believe that unity depends on us. If you believe that we have to do the work of reconciling us to one another. And so one of the things is we're not holding those two halves of Ephesians two together.

That first half where Christ, through his death on the cross, right, reconciles us with God, reconciles lost dead sinners to God. But in the second half, he reconciles lost dead sinners to one another. The cross reconciles us vertically and horizontally. And what many Christians believe is, sure, the cross may reconcile us to God. but it is insufficient to reconcile us to one another, so we have to make sure that we don't mess that up. When the fact of the matter is,

if you believe you can mess up what Christ accomplished on the cross, then you don't believe Christ accomplished it on the cross. And that's one of the main differences between biblical justice and social justice. You look to the justice of the cross to find divine justice and divine mercy flowing out of that, but there's no such grace, mercy. There's no mercy in social justice. There's no love, really, in social justice. I want to switch tracks, though, here in your book, Fault Lines,

my book Christianity and Wokeness. We both talk about intersectionality, which is the idea, basically, that the interests of... Is it, by the way, is there a new rule now that the two of us can't be in the same place at the same time after this since we've... Yeah. It's a dangerous proposition, my man.

So intersectionality. is the idea that the interests of underprivileged groups intersect. So women have been kept down by men, sexual minorities have been kept down by straight people, disabled people have been depriveled people, et cetera, and so on. And foreigners by the native-born. Foreigners by the native-born. Non-Christians by Christians,

it's very important for people to understand that in the world of critical social justice, it's not just the white person that's the problem or the white male that's the problem it's the white male heterosexual cisgendered able-bodied native born and if you keep going down the list you get to Christian and if you read the literature the critical social justice literature ultimately you realize that Christianity is seen as an oppressive hegemonic power so one of those intersections where people, you know, pile up their oppression as if they are not Christian or if they are not Orthodox in their Christianity as well. Let's go to the LGBT project and its advancement just for a minute here, Vody. We've heard in recent years that sexual minorities need to be elevated in platform. They've been oppressed. even in the Southern Baptist Convention now, this isn't exactly the same thing,

but we've heard two consecutive presidents of the SBC, Jady Greer and Ed Lytton, say basically that Scripture whispers about sexual sin, which I think is tied into this whole embrace and softening around this issue. I'd love to hear you respond to the claim. Scripture whispers about sexual sin. What would you say to that? First of all, that's a lie. But secondly, even if it was true, we need to think about it like I used to think about my mama.

I could be out playing with my friends in the streets. And if I thought I heard my mama whisper my name, I'd go home just to make sure, right? So even if it was true that God, whispers about that, listen to the whisper. But that's not what they mean. When they say this, what they're trying to say is that God doesn't speak to this at all. Because even if you believe he speaks to it in a whisper, that should be enough. Amen. Amen. Eric and Charlie, I want to switch tracks to our children, the children. They're being taught in public schools, in colleges, in universities, basically to hate America, because as Vody talked about just a minute ago,

America is a white supremacist, heteronormative, capitalist public order that is infested with sin, right, in a structural way. So what we saw with Antifa and BLM last summer, I don't think it was just being locked down in a terrible way. I think it was also lots of people thinking they were doing something righteous in destroying this public order. How should, should we think about our children and how they're being educated today to basically despise authority, the public order that God has made, and America itself? Yeah, I mean, this is sort of a sweet spot of what we do every day at turning point. And so to be as blunt as possible, if we don't radically change the way we do higher education

in our country, we will not have a nation in 15 years. Yeah, we, it's really, that simple. And so we have way too many kids going to college, way too many, probably 50% too many. We have a generation of young people that are... Would you just back that one up? Yeah. Because I think some people like didn't catch what you just said. And it's incredibly important. Okay. We have way too many people going to college in America. Explain that. So yeah, we have we have an entire industry designed towards trying to capture high school seniors

putting them through a debt cycle to borrow money that they don't have, obviously because they're borrowing money, to study things that don't matter, to find jobs that don't exist, to colleges that would otherwise go under and be financially bankrupt if it wasn't for the subsidy of the federal government.

Most of what they're studying, they don't even find jobs in those majors when they graduate. By getting them in these environments that is basically the new Sodom and Gomorrah, where sexual degeneracy is platformed and glamorized, where dorm rooms of male and females are next to each other, where bad ideas are incubated and given a platform. They are then exposed to evangelistic nihilism, anti-American thought, and we're supposed to believe this is some sort of right of passage. It's mostly and mainly,

and then I'm going to offend most of the people in the room, it's mostly and mainly parents' fault because they have this idea that their kid needs to go to college because they don't want to tell their friends that their child's become a plumber, and they don't want their kid to become a carpenter or work construction, because that would be the worst thing, right? They'd rather have their kid become a nihilistic, screwed up Marxist than actually have to go work HVAC for a living, right? It's true.