The Eric Metaxas Show - Bill Johnson

Episode Date: November 9, 2020

Pastor Bill Johnson of Bethel Church shares much-needed encouragement in these trouble times with his new book, "Mornings and Evenings in His Presence: A Lifestyle of Daily Encounters with God."

They say it takes a big man to admit he's wrong, but I say it takes an even bigger man to admit he's never wrong. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you that bigger man, Eric Mataxis. Folks, welcome to hour two of the Eric Mataxis show. Yes, there are two hours, two whole hours. In this segment, I continue my conversation with Kevin McCullough on the election and what is happening. I want to remind you tomorrow night, Tuesday night, is another one of those wonderful prayer meetings I've been participating in. Yesterday we had over 10,000 people watching on Facebook live. I'm one of the people who praise lots of others, Michelle Bachman.

Actually, she'll be on this program tomorrow. But tomorrow night I'll post it on Facebook, on Twitter, and I'll probably send out an email as well. I think it's very important that we pray for this nation at this time. And these meetings are, you know, they're a little bit on the charismatic Pentecostal side, which of course I love, at the end of it, a guy pulled out, no joke, a red, white, and blue shofar, a huge, a huge showfar and blasted the chauffeur. How do you not love that? So anyway, tomorrow and that's tomorrow night. Okay, Kevin McCullough, I submit to you that when we talk about a divided nation, that's baloney, we're not nearly as divided. If the media were telling the truth,

if we had a media that was basically telling the truth, was basically trying to be fair, instead of trying to help the left, we would not be nearly as divided. Many people who voted for Biden, voted for Biden, because they are only getting their news from people who so despise the president that it would be illogical not to vote for Biden.

No, I couldn't agree with you more. And it's not just the news operations. I mean, I punished myself, but when I completed my Saturday night broadcast, I flipped on Saturday night live just to see how they were going to handle it. And it was the most over the top rhetorically that I've ever seen them do anything. And they've bested themselves many times in past history. And this is really damaging, Eric, from the standpoint,

that it does not take into account that people are frail. And our psychology is very important how we are healthy and able to go through, day to day. There's a lot of sensitivity here. Sadly, when the call was made on Saturday, I had to put up a little post that really got a lot of pushback in the Northeast area, New Jersey, New York area from people that I know. And I said, if you're a Biden Harris supporter and you're celebrating today, just understand that as a brother or sister in Christ, you have many around you who are mourning what that would mean, mourning the death of millions more babies. I got the most hateful responses of anything I've ever had response given me to. And Eric, I've had death threats against me before.

But I've had people I went to theology school at Moody Bible Institute 100 years ago that said, all you do is worship at the altar of the tyrant. And it's one of those things where you kind of scratch your head and you say, well, I understand that there's personality differences that you didn't care for, but you can't argue with the policy outcomes. And that's what the guy did. I was greatly encouraged the next day because my pastor, Ryan Batesle, who pastors a church called Emergence here in the Tri-State area, said this in his morning message. He said, if we are not as the church willing to do battle for justice, compassion, and truth, who will? And Eric, that question looms large on me as we are facing these legal recourses. If we don't step into this gap at this point in time and say, no, we're going to hold a place.

to find out what is the truth, no one else will. The media certainly will not. So it is up to the church to say, if we're going to be governed by truth, if we want truth to be relevant in the lives of our nation, it's going to be the church that has to bring that out. Well, I have to say, of course, I agree with you. And I remember when Trump won four years ago, I had friends on the other side that were obviously heartbroken. Right. And my heart went out. to them. I care about my friends. I may disagree with them, but I care about them. I wanted them to understand what I was seeing, and they weren't understanding that, and they were heartbroken. And I care about them. I love them. They're my friends. And I think what we're seeing on the left in a way is if you get

your emotions involved, if the facts aren't on your side, let's put it that way, you're kind of forced to hug your emotions all the more tightly. And so when people say idiotic things like you're worshipping at the feet of the tyrant or whatever, that's called a cliche. And a cliche is by definition idiotic. It is a substitute for actual thinking. So when people use clichés like you're a bigot or you worship Trump, you don't worship Jesus, when people do that, you know instantly,

They have no argument and they simply want to shut you up because what you're saying is painful to them. You're saying things that are forcing them to think it's too painful them to even consider that Trump might be a good president. And that's what this boils down to, Eric. And I want to pull the camera out to the 35,000 foot range here. This election is a microcosm of the modern day life, especially for the Christian in North America. in that this is a debate about what is going to be accepted as true. And what I have, I've been really reflecting on this. And I wrote about this in my first book a long time ago, but it's even more true today.

There's a significant difference between the philosophical left and right in the country. And one believes that truth is absolutely knowable. We may not see it at all times. We may have to seek it. We may have to dig for it. We may have to really wrestle with what it means sometimes. One piece of scripture may seem to contradict another piece of scripture, but we have to go down deeper. But we believe we hold to this idea that a truth can be known, that it is knowable and that that truth comes from God and is here for our purposes.

The other side believes, in essence, that truth isn't even a thing. That truth is fungible, not knowable, but fungible. It can be used for whatever purposes they wish it to be used for. And what we are seeing with glaring 2020 clarity right now is that the media, the culture, the Democrats, for the most part academia, for the most part Hollywood, for the most part entertainment, they all believe that truth is not knowable, but that it is fungible. I believe they fundamentally believe that because they don't believe that there's a God or certainly that he's not involved in the affairs of man or their lives. the right doesn't whether you're catholic jewish evangelical you believe in a god that is outside of you that is above you that is bigger than you that you are subject to this is the fundamental driving difference between the biden and trump argument right now will we find the truth that is knowable

about how the vote went down or should we pretend that truth doesn't matter that it was just an exercise of pretend and we're just going to go along with whatever the consensus says popularly. I believe as Christians, we've got to be placeholders in this day and age. Well, certainly I agree with you. And that's why I really do think that those of us who are people of faith should be sure that we pray, grab some friends, pray with them on the phone. Suzanne and I are fasting and praying this evening and probably tomorrow. Once again, there's a prayer call tomorrow night. Anyone can join if you're not offended by people blowing showfars. It is, it goes on for two and a half hours. I'm one of the people who will be praying.

Michelle Bachman will be praying. She's one of the folks. They'll be on the show tomorrow. I think Dick Morris is going to join us. But it's simply praying for the nation because I think at heart, just as you have put your finger on, Kevin, at heart, this is a spiritual battle. Are we going to submit to what is true, which is sometimes difficult? Or are we going to do the easy thing? and just go with what's popular, jump on the power bandwagon. That has never led to anything good. We need to know who we are, what we believe in. We need to stand against communism in China and the oppression of people in those places.

We just got 10 seconds. I'll give it to you, my friend. Well, I just want people to know that ultimately, whether Trump is reelected or Biden is elected, God is in control and our greatest encouragement and strength and source of emotions and happiness and joy don't come from winning elections. It comes from trusting him. He has called us to be stewards of truth. We need to do that. We need to pray.

We need to seek him. We need to seek what is true. And I think that when we do, we will be aligned with his will, which is always better than asking him to align with ours. Fantastic. God bless you, my friend. Folks. We'll catch you in the next segment. Don't go away.

Hey there, folks, welcome to the program. I have a great privilege today of speaking with Pastor Bill Johnson. Some of you know him. He's the senior pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California. Bill Johnson, welcome to the program. Thanks. It's great to be with you. It's good to see you.

It's good to see you, too. I know you have a new book out of going to talk about that. It's called Mornings and Evenings in His Presence, 365 mornings and evenings encountering the powerful presence of God. It sounds like a devotional. I think I'm reading that correctly. Yeah, it is. When you talk about encountering the presence of God, there are a lot of Christians

that they're skeptical of encountering the presence of God. They can do Bible study, they can talk about God. But when you encounter God himself, I know that there are people that. that they begin to get suspicious, they begin to think it's going to drift over into Gnosticism. Tell us about that, because this is a big part of your ministry and your church, and I think it's extremely important. So it's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on here. The greatest gift we've received is the person of the Holy Spirit.

When I got married, I didn't get married to have a marriage certificate. I got married to enter into a relationship. and if my natural relationship with my wife is an ongoing encounter, it's a relational journey, then how much more should my relationship with God be the same? Jesus spoke to this in the gospel of John where he said, you search the scriptures because you think in them is eternal life, and yet these scriptures testify me and you're unwilling to come to me. What we see in the word is supposed to take us to the person.

the word of God is the living word of God, but it's to take us to an encounter with God himself. And that's how we're changed. We're not changed because of embracing some new philosophic approach to life. We're transformed because of the power of his presence in our life. It changes us. And so it's an ongoing relationship that is extremely vital. Well, when you say that, it reminds me. that I have had a few friends that have, it seems to me, fallen away from the faith. And the only explanation that I can give to it, because it's so dismaying and so disheartening, is that they did not have that personal experience somehow, that it was mainly an intellectual thing.

Because when you have a personal experience, it becomes undeniable, even if you don't like it, even if you hate God because you just understand who he is. it's a personal experience. And I've often felt that that is the most important thing. There are a lot of people running around saying I'm a Christian, but it's an intellectual thing. It's not a personal thing. How do you go from an intellectual assent to certain doctrines or ideas

to that personal relationship? You've got to get hungry. In the natural, we get hungry when we don't eat. But in the kingdom, you get hungry by eating. and it's exposing ourselves to what's available. I mean, read the scripture, it's a living word, and see what's available, what Paul encountered, what Daniel encountered, what David encountered. Those were not just historic events.

Those are present realities because God never changes. And when you read about what's available, it just makes you hungry. And there's some, you know, the- He threw this out there. It's classic Bill Johnson. As I've gotten to know you a little bit in this last year, I realize you say some very, very profound things. I think that's your hallmark.

When I've heard you preach, I go, whoa, that's deep. You just said in the natural, if you don't eat, you get hungry. And you said in the supernatural, when you eat, you get hungry. So you're saying that one of the ways to get hungry for God is to read the Bible. That's basically what you just said, correct? Absolutely. Read the stories. the history of people's encounter with God, and also read church history. Just read of the revival

in Wales, read about Azusa Street, the prayer revival in 1859 in New York City. All these stories are so compelling when I see what's available. I'm no longer satisfied with the status quo. I must pursue what God made available to me. And it's eating that makes you hungry. Well, if you don't mind my asking, when you refer to Azusa Street, there are tons of people listening that they don't know what you're talking about. So I want them to know about that. But I also want to know what books would one even read? I can't even think myself, is there a book on the Welsh revival? I've heard about the Welsh revival.

What book would I read? Is there a book on the businessman's revival of 1859 in New York City? I live in New York City. What books cover this kind of stuff? There's a whole series of books on each of those subjects. You know, you can Google it, for example. Rick Joyner wrote a real tremendous book on the Welsh Revival that I really love. I forget the name of it offhand.

World of Flame, I think it is. I know, Rick. We should have him on to talk about that. Yeah. So there are just great materials out there. There's a whole host of books written about the 1859 Prayer Revival, where businesses shut down at noon just to seek God in New York City. And it was not led by, you know, superstar pastors or something.

It was literally businessmen that cried out to God. It's a great, great story. But when you read things like that, at least for me, it just makes me hungry. Well, let me ask you because, again, maybe it seems unbelievable to you, but there are tons of people listening to this program. They've never heard of the Azusa Street Revival. Would you mind telling my audience about the Assumption? Azusa Street Revival?

The Aziza Street Revival was kind of the beginning of what is modern day called the days of Pentecost. It would be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It would be a real visitation of God upon people that gathered from all over the world. This is 1906. And they came literally from all over the world because they heard God was doing something extraordinary. And it was led a large...

In Los Angeles. Los Angeles. Los Angeles. Not San Francisco. I'm confusing it with the earthquake. You understand. Los Angeles, 2006.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Exactly. And so it was led largely by a black man, William Seymour, who was blinded in one eye, which is kind of ironic to have a name Seymour and be blinded in one eye.

But he was used by God to just ignite are literally revivals that spread all over the world. And church historians trace now, I forget, several hundred million of believers can be traced back to that particular outpouring of the spirit. So it is quite significant in church history. Well, it's interesting because I've heard of Assousa Street so often, but hadn't something like this happened before?

In other words, the idea of people speaking in tongues and all the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, surely that it happened in history before, it just hadn't happened in this way where it led to so much else. Yeah, the church started that way in Acts Chapter 2. And there was a great book that 20, I think 20 centuries of charismatic Christianity, something of that nature. And he really traces the move of the Holy Spirit through the last 2,000 years. But what happened at Azusa Street was like pouring gasoline on a fire. It exploded and went to the nations. Simultaneously, there were visitations of God in Korea, Africa, Latin America, places around the world where God just sovereignly just visited these people at the same time.

In fact, there's a great outpouring in spirit in what's now North Korea. And so it was very, very historic. This black man to whom you referred, William Seymour, what became of him? Did he live long after this 1906 revival on Azusa Street? He did. He did. I don't remember the date of his death, but he lived quite a while and became a great leader in the Southern California. There was some manipulation going on where people tried to oust him from his position and, you know, competition and that sort of thing just ruins. a lot of what God intends to do in the earth. But he remained faithful to the Lord. It was a great, great spokesman for the kingdom.

Was the ministry of Amy Semple McPherson at all related to his ministry? I don't think there was ever a connection. I don't recall that right now. But she would have caught the wave, so to speak, that was created by what he was a part of. Yeah, well, I'm just saying. saying that she was in L.A. at the time. And is Smith Wigglesworth before this or after this? Wigglesworth's was after. He was after. He died in, I think, 1948, but he had a great impact in the 20s and the 30s and the 40s. I'll say. Anytime anybody talks about Smith Wigglesworth, I listen, I just think there are very few figures.

like that, who as you say, move in the spirit of God. We're going to be right back, folks. I'm talking to Bill Johnson. He and Benny Johnson have written a new devotional called Mornings and Evenings. We'll be right back with Bill Johnson. Don't go away. Investors seeking steady cash flow, ready to diversify. NRAIA has grown to be one of the nation's leading specialists and offers 10% annualized

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Go to mypillar.com. Use the code, Eric. You're going to get whopping savings and really high quality products. Did I mention that? Thank you. That old wheel is going to roll around once more when it does.

It will even up the score. Don't be weak. talking to Bill Johnson. He is the leader of Bethel Church. Many of you have heard of it in Reading, California. I had the privilege of speaking there at a conference a number of years ago, and I'll be back at the end of November. Bill, oftentimes when I put out info on Bethel Church or something like that, there are people out there who are very, very hostile. They seem to think that there's something theologically way off. Where do you think they get that idea? Because I, I've heard you speak a few times, and there's just no question that you are as straight on as can be, as biblical as can be, and you're zealous to be biblical. Why do you think there are some people that are made so uncomfortable by the kind of faith that you express, that manifests itself in your circles? I'm not sure. I know that they take sound bites. They'll take one phrase and try to build a case against me or one of our team members.

But that happens all through the world, especially of the Internet now. Everybody's a genius on the Internet. So you just kind of pick and choose different phrases and tear somebody down. And I do declare some extreme things, not in error, but to challenge people's thinking. And sometimes that doesn't sit well with critics. Well, okay. What extreme things do you declare to provoke people to faith? Oh, goodness.

It's my personal conviction that Jesus didn't do miracles as God. He did them as a man submitted to God. So people then come to the conclusion that I don't believe he's the son of God. There's the great mystery of Scripture. Jesus Christ is 100% God, well, at the same time, being 100% man. And so he lived, Jesus himself said, the son of man, referring to himself, can do nothing of himself. He can only do what he sees the Father. So there was that dependency that he modeled for us.

Now, if he did his miracles as God, I'm still impressed, I'm just an observer. But if I find out that he modeled a way for me to do life by yielding to the father and doing what only the father is doing, then I am no longer satisfied to stay where I'm at. I may never do it well, but I'm not satisfied to stay where I'm at. I must pursue the example Jesus gave me. And so that's been an area of great effect. for a number of people, but they've come to the conclusion. I don't understand why.

I mean, but I don't understand why, because it seems like it's perfectly biblical what you just said. In other words, that if I have access to the same Holy Spirit, who is God, that I can choose to ignore the Holy Spirit or I can invite him in and ask him to use me as his vessel, it seems clear that that's part of the whole point of Jesus coming to earth and becoming a man. And when he goes on the Mount of Transfiguration, they see him. in his glory. But he wasn't like that all the time. And you're quite right. When you put him in that kind of a box and you say, oh, well, he's God. It takes you off the hook. It kind of makes it like

there's two-tiered justice system. He's God. He does that crazy stuff. I'm just a person. I don't do that stuff. That's not biblical. Exactly. I agree. And it's generally put together these arguments or criticisms are put together by people who don't believe miracles exist today. And so they have to create some sort of a case against me and others to justify their unbelief in God being the same today as he was yesterday. I guess so. Well, let's talk about the book. I forgot that you wrote it with Benny. So tell us about that. That's not easy to write a book with someone else. Yeah, it's just things gleaned from our writings that would help people to encounter the Lord morning and night, morning and night, every day of their life. And so really it's just taken out of the things that we've written through the years and to really put it in a concise format and a very simple prayer for people to engage with the Holy Spirit

and learn to walk with him throughout the day. And so it's a very simple but hopefully inviting way to read scripture and the way to read a devotional. Bill, what is the first time? I know you come from generations of preachers in your family. What is the first time that you remember having an encounter with God? Do you remember? I do. Well, I grew up.

So in one sense, I grew up with an awareness of God and his love for me. But I remember going to an all-night prayer meeting, and I stepped into another room to rest for a few minutes. And when I laid down, the Lord spoke to me. It was the clearest thing I'd ever. experienced up to that day. And he just spoke very, very profoundly one sentence. He said, if you stay out of my way, I will use you in no small way. And how old were you then? Probably 19.

19. But you do remember that. And it was not an audible voice, but it was an inner voice? It was as clear as audible, but it wasn't audible. You know, it's hard to describe, but it was So where is your words right now? I've heard people say things like that. And you just, I love talking about how we hear from God, how we experience miracles. And even in my book about miracles, you realize that because God is, he's not a one-size-fits-all-God, he speaks to each of us ever so slightly differently in different ways at different times. And so I'm just, I'm fascinated with the variety of religious experience, to quote Henry

James, it's kind of interesting how people describe it. And for some people, it's such a normal thing that they don't even try to describe it. They kind of act like everybody experiences this. But I always love digging in a little bit and hearing more. We're going to go to a break, folks. I am talking to Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Reading, California. The book is mornings and evenings. We'll be right back.

Hey there, folks, I'm talking to Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Reading, California. I have been to Reading, California. It was 105 degrees. My first question to you, Bill Johnson, why Reading, California? So why? It's where God assigned me. It's where he planted me. And my dad actually pastored here many years ago.

And I passed now the church that he once passed me. And so it's a great privilege. You know, the Lord often works and out of the way places. He did that for John the Baptist, and we feel like they'll do it for us, too. I think New York, spiritually speaking, New York City, where I live, is far more out of the way than Reading, California. And the Lord has called me here, and, you know, I'm still waiting on him. Let me ask you, just because I want to wet the appetite, spiritually speaking, of my audience, you have seen amazing miracles in your ministry.

And there's so many people I think they're really hungry for it. There's some people that are hostile and skeptical. But talk to us about some of the miracles that you have seen because a lot of folks, they walk along in life. They say I'm a Christian, but they just don't believe that that stuff is possible today. What are some of the things that you've seen or maybe early on in your ministry when you first began to see things that you knew were real, that were miraculous? Oh, goodness. Yeah, we've seen so much. One of the most extraordinary things that we had happened was a young man about 12 years old came here from Norway. He was he was dying. His body couldn't absorb food. He was fed intervenously at night. And the family wanted to take him on one final trip as a family before he died. And so they got permission from the doctor.

something like 300 kilos of medical supplies, wheelchair and everything, they flew from Norway to Redding. Sometime during the first meeting, somebody prayed for him, and we don't even know who. But when they went to a... I got to go back. Before you get too far with this, he's dying. They live in Norway. Why did they want to come all the way to Reading? I mean, you think they would go to Lords.

You think that they would go to someplace. but did they have a previous relationship with somebody at Reading? How did they know that miracles are happening in this part of California to take their son from Norway? It's a bizarre story. They wanted to do something local, but the Lord made it very clear there to go to Reading. They had heard. The God was doing amazing things here. But they didn't even bring him necessarily to be healed.

That's always the hope. They were thinking of one last family trip together, and they thought it might as well. will be at a Christian conference. And when they went out to lunch, he asked for a breadstick. They would give him food to smell because he enjoyed the smell, but he couldn't eat it. A few minutes later, he said, can I have another? And they said, what did you do with the last one? They said, I ate it.

And a long story short, they tested him over the next several days, and he had been miraculously completely healed. And it's an extraordinary story. And in fact, Norway, they did a movie on his life. and his healing here at Redding. But there's many of those kinds of things, whether it be cancer healed, deaf ears open, people who can't walk, get up and walk.

And I need to make it clear, though. Not everyone we pray for gets healed. God is not a vending machine. We're on a relational journey where we're learning to live up to the standard of Scripture instead of lowering the standard of Scripture to our level of experience. And that's what the fight is over.

We're just contending for that. And there's so many people that don't understand why is it that somebody needs to go to a conference in a place like Reading to get healed? They would think, well, why couldn't I just pray in my room and get healed? I know that God can reach me here. Why would I need to go to a conference in Northern California? What do you say to somebody like that? What is it that happens there that would happen here? It can happen at home.

I mean, we encourage people. Seat God in your own house. But, you know, if you're not getting breakthrough, go to where it's happening. You know, wise men still travel. The wise men left where they were to go see where the Messiah was. And sometimes the Lord is moving in a particular location. And it's just smart to go there. I want to make myself available for whatever he's doing.

He's not a cosmic bellhop that I require to touch me where I am. I have to adjust my lifestyle to what he's saying and what he's doing. And sometimes that means travel. Well, do you think I always try to examine this stuff as it were scientifically or practically. Like I try to think, isn't it possible that when you go to a place where lots of people are praying, that somehow on some level that we can't comprehend logically, something is going on as a result of that, that there is more faith, that there's more of an open. for God to move. I mean, there has to be something like that going on, that people can experience

practically, but maybe we can't experience. You know, we don't have a spectrometer that we can measure these things. But if you're sensitive to the Holy Spirit, you know when the presence of God is someplace. And I know that in your meetings and things that you can, you can experience it. And then you go out to the street and it's different. Yeah, no, that, you're absolutely right. And whenever you get together with a group of people that have seen so much happen, of course, the faith level is higher. And it's always smart to get into a place where the faith level is higher because that is one of the ingredients of a miracle. It's not the only one, but it is one of the ingredients for a great miracle. And it can happen at home.

It can happen in our local church. And it can happen by traveling somewhere else. I just feel like we need to be hungry enough to do whatever he makes available to us. That's the important thing. I'm willing to humble myself. I've done it. I've traveled all over the world just to see what God was doing somewhere and then be impacted personally so I can bring it home.

And I feel like that's every believer's responsibility. And we hear about that, don't we, that people will go someplace and they get, you know, the new term. It's not new to you, but, you know, impartation. I mean, that was not something I'd ever heard. Then suddenly I'm in these circles and people are using that word constantly. What is that? Is that just a fancy way of saying a touch from God? You know, the Lord puts what the Bible calls grace. Grace is the enabling presence and power of God.

And he puts different flavors or unique graces on each of our lives as believers. And when we serve and minister to other people in our identity in Christ, in our place of personal breakthrough, we impart that grace for other people. It's the whole process of disciple. We've got a hard break. I want to come right back to that sentence. Folks, we'll be right back to Bill Johnson. Folks, I'm talking to Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Reading, California. The new book, A Devotional Mornings and Evenings in His Presence.

Bill, you were just making a point about that there's this element of grace that comes. Talk more about that. Well, Paul, for example, in Ephesians 4, says to each one of us, grace is given according to the measure of Christ's gift. And then he mentions apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The point is that we all of us carry a measure of grace to impart to other people so that our breakthrough becomes more common throughout the body of Christ. Sometimes it has to do with miracles, a grace for miracles. Sometimes it's a grace for parenting or managing money. it might be. There are graces on all of our lives. And as we submit to one another, honor one another,

we get to receive from the grace. You know, I get to receive from your personal breakthrough, and it impacts my life. And that's the way it's supposed to work. We are members of a body joined together. And that grace flows freely that way. It's a beautiful thing. Well, it's an amazing thing. You know, during this weird time of COVID, how have you all been dealing with this with gathering together? I know a lot of churches in California have been up in arms because the governor has really misunderstood the centrality of faith to people's lives. Yeah, that is so true. We're under a microscope here in Reading in a very real sense. It's a, we're working with political leaders, with health officials and everything in Reading to monitor this thing well so that we can serve our city well.

I like seeing the pushback that is happening, to be honest, in many parts of our state, because I think there is a great overreach of government. But on our very personal level, we have good favor and good relationships with our leaders. And so we are constantly monitoring our activities. with them. And they really do have our interest in mind, which is a refreshing, a refreshing perspective. That's absolutely wonderful. And there is no one-size-fits-all with that either. I know that my friend Greg Lurie was able to work with the local authorities and be able to do church outside, and it's been fantastic. But a lot of other pastors have really had to push back. They've gone to court. It's been a tough time. But I think that,

It's strange how this pandemic has forced a lot of people to recalibrate their relationship with the Lord, with their local churches and things. And I can only imagine that God's hand is in this. I'm coming to Reading to have the great privilege of preaching in your church at the end of November. I'm looking forward to that, if only because it's after the election. And I can't wait until this election is over. But that's a rare honor for me. I'm grateful for that. And meanwhile, I guess you're going to have to hold down the fort bill.

Isn't that the case? Yeah, yeah, that's a challenge, but I'll try. We're excited to have you come. We really are. How many years have you been in ministry before we close? I just want to ask, how many years have you been doing what you do? 47. 47 years.

47 years. Well, I take my head out to you. That is absolutely extraordinary. It's a real joy to have you on the program. Thanks for coming on. I hope people listening will get any of your books, but the new one is mornings and evenings in his presence. It's a devotional. Bill Johnson, thank you so much for your time. I look forward to more of it. God watch you, friend. Thank you.