The Eric Metaxas Show - Billy Hallowell (Encore)

Episode Date: March 8, 2021

Investigative reporter Billy Hallowell deals with evil and the devil head on in his newest book, "Playing with Fire: A Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts." (Encore Presentation)

talking in this hour with a friend, Billy Hallowell, who has written a book called Playing With Fire, a Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts. I find this stuff very important Billy Hallowall has been on this program number of times. He's currently the director of communications and content for PureFlix.com. Billy Hallowell, welcome to the program. Hey, thanks for having me. And congratulations on the book. Look, you've done so much and you've written other books, but What led you to a subject like this, playing with fire, modern investigation into demons, exorcism, and ghosts? What led you to write a book about this? You know, it's one of the topics that I've always found fascinating, and it's kind of haunted me, right?

So throughout my career in journalism, when I was at The Blaze, when I was at Faithwire, there would be these stories that would creep up. And sometimes it would be a Hollywood movie, like The Conjuring would be coming out. We'd be kind of telling the real story, right? What the family claimed happened. And there was a story, though, a few years ago that really struck me. And it struck me because the evidence for it. Now I'm a Christian and I believe in these things. We know they're true.

I think there's a lot of debate about how, you know, evil manifests itself today and all of that. But this one particular story out in Gary, Indiana, it had government documentation. It had people on the record talking about the fact that they experienced these things, saw these things. And I'm not just talking civilians. I'm talking, you know, police officers, sheriffs, CPS, workers. And so that was the first time that I really became a little more intrigued. And I thought, I want to, I want to cover this a little deeper. But, you know, I always had a pause with this topic. And I actually had a book deal to do this. And I turned it down a few years ago because I prayed about

and I didn't feel like it was the right time. This felt like the right time. And I'm happy to go into more detail. But it's just, it's something that God is sort of placed in front of me and I tried to escape it, but I'm fascinated by it. Well, I've always been fascinated by this stuff because to my mind, the big question of our time is, is there anything beyond the material world? And that was my struggle. I guess I write about it in my upcoming memoir, Fish Out of Water, that I just had been convinced that there's nothing or there's nothing that we can know.

And even if you see something demonic or evil, that can lead you to God because you can say, okay, I know that there's something real beyond this world. And guess what? I choose the good. I choose God. I don't choose the demons. But many people, including many Christians, are very, very skeptical. They just seem unable to deal with it. Either that or they get into arguing about what aspects of it are biblical and what aren't. And that's, by the way, very important. But it's kind of like science. You're looking at an unseen realm. You're trying to figure out what's there based on what you see, what you don't see. you know, it's like you look at a tree and you see it move and you assume that's the wind. And then you investigate and you kind of, you know, so I'm so glad you wrote the book.

Again, it's called Playing with Fire. So talk about it. What are some of the things that you write about in this book? You know, what was so important to me kind of going into this, and you know this, when you go in with a journalistic lens and you're trying to look at details and facts, it's having backing, being able to say, okay, this person has a story. and you can't always do this, right? Some people, and I want to just note this because I think this is important,

any person who is out there speaking about an experience that they've had with evil, most of those people have nothing to gain from it, right? There's movie deals and book deals, but the vast majority of these people are actually afraid to talk about it. They're afraid to be called weird or strange. And that was something I encountered very early on in this, because obviously I've written a book on the end times. I tend to tackle difficult topics, right?

That's what I'm just drawn toward. this I think is the most difficult topic because of the nature of it. There are so many people, as you said, even in the Christian world who are hesitant. And so going into this project, it was actually easier. And I don't want to get myself in trouble here, but I'm just going to say it was easier to get Hollywood actors and actresses to endorse the book and respond to me than it was to get some pastors. And that was shocking to me on so many levels.

And maybe it's because those people experience, if you're a solid Christian in Hollywood, you're experiencing that spiritual warfare? I don't know, but I was surprised by that. And so going into this, the first thing I did was I went back to that Indiana case, the Indiana case in Gary where it was a mother and her children, and she was claiming that she had experienced some crazy things in her house. Things were moving. She felt like she was being possessed at different moments.

And I started digging into that. Who were the key players? She wasn't really speaking out to media, but who was? And so tracking down the priest, tracking down the sheriff who was involved in that. And again, some of these people were more than willing to speak. Others weren't. I had to really say to them, listen, I'm not trying to make your story into anything other

than what you claim happened. That's what I'm trying to do. I want to tell your story. And so we were able to tell that story pretty incredibly on the Gary Indiana case in the book. And I don't want to spoil all the details, but I actually find it to be one of the most compelling cases around, at least in our modern era. another case that we all know the exorcist, right? The movie The Exorcist.

We're familiar with that, but a lot of people don't realize it's based on a supposedly real life story, a little boy who they've called Robbie, who is still alive and to date, only very few people know his identity. And that's what they base that entire movie on. So that's just sort of a little lens into how I started. Those are the stories I was gravitating toward. Well, the reason I find this stuff so important is that those of us who, are serious about our Christian faith, no, there's an answer. We know the answer to this is Jesus and

that the demons are afraid of Jesus. But there are so many people who are trapped by dark forces, they don't know where to go. And these dark forces control them. They're afraid if they speak out. I mean, it really is, I should say, this is real for people. And so the more we talk about it, the better. I've seen a lot of programs on TV that it's kind of like ghost hunting stuff or whatever. And I know that in some of these cases, you listen to the people talking, and you know exactly what they're describing. It's demonic stuff, but they're not talking to anyone who can help them with it. And so they're sort of talking in circles.

And I just want to say, I know people who can come to you and pray and solve this issue. So so many people, by denying the reality of this, are leaving other people locked in bondage to evil. Absolutely. I just want to say it's because I'm a Christian that I want to talk about this. Jesus is the answer to this evil, which many people that you just said, they don't talk about it. It is real. Well, it's real.

And the thing that's so fascinating to me, and we've talked a lot about this in the past when I've been on the show, I had a book called Fault Line where we talked about Hollywood Media Universities, the reality is by not only denying it, by pretending it's not there. I think most people, a lot of people who are outside of the church, even some in, they don't even know that this exists, right? If you're not even believing in God, the idea that there's this whole other realm, yeah, you're familiar with the concept, but it's foreign to you. And, you know, it's insane to me to think about the influence that Hollywood Media Universities has over all of us. And if you're the enemy, I mean, think about this, why would you not permeate those arenas? That's where people are learning. That's where worldview is being shaped.

everything that is happening around the world right now, if you look at it, very much lines up with this. And I would imagine if people had an idea of how much they were actually being influenced by these realms, which it sounds crazy on the surface, but it's not when you dig into scripture. They would be shocked. And that was something that came up in this book. And I want to also say, I found it to be incredibly important to talk with psychologists and people who are on the front lines of dealing with mental health because there's also a portion of the church, right, that everything that happens is spiritual. So you kind of have these two polar opposites.

In one side, they deny anything spiritual. On the other side, they say everything. Well, everything that happens is Satan. Well, not everything. Some things are bad decisions. They may be due to influence of evil, but we have free will. We make choices, right? So bringing in mental health professionals to try to say,

okay, when do you draw the line between something you think is demonic and something you believe to be a mental health issue? And that was fascinating. And I will tell you, some of these people did not want to be named because they were afraid if they were to reveal their name that they would have some sort of issue in their professional communities saying, listen, I believe this stuff. But there were plenty of people who solidly believe that they have encountered things as psychologists and mental health professionals that they cannot explain. We're going to be right back, folks. I'm talking to Billy Hallowell. The book is Playing with Fire.

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Eric, let me say it again, squadpod.com slash Eric. Check it out. Hey there, folks. I'm talking to Billy Hallowell. He has a new book out called Playing with Fire, Modern Investigation into demons, exorcism, and ghosts. Billy, I never knew what I believed. And then suddenly, you know, 30 years ago, I came to faith. And I knew that this world that I was told to laugh at, angels and demons, are you kidding, that it was real. The only question is what parts of it are really real and what parts of it are there's exaggeration or there's misunderstanding or whatever. It's an invisible realm. But, you know, when we're talking about quantum physics or we're talking about things, there are many invisible realms that we investigate

and eventually can learn about scientifically. And so there's never any question about that. But this is a realm that a lot of people say, well, I'm not, I'm not going to go there. And I think, hey, if it's real, I want to go there. And so what I find interesting is people who are Christians themselves arguing about this. For example, you talk about demons, exorcism, and ghosts, the existence of demons, the ability to cast out demons. I don't think most people would have a problem with that, but many people, myself included, get confused when you get into the realm of ghosts. Are ghosts, I was taught oftentimes that ghosts are demons masquerading as deceased loved ones. What do you say or what is your investigation led to and what does the Bible say?

Yeah, you know, that's the really interesting piece of this, right? Because 43% of Americans, they believe that people can die and come back as ghosts. So that's not just Christian. I mean, that's 43, 4 out of 10 people believe that. And so there's a real strong belief. And actually more people believe in demons. 45% believe that it's possible that demons exist. So you have this proportion of people, again,

they're not quite sure many of them what they believe, but they believe that something is happening. And so the way that Hollywood has shaped us is everything is the exorcist, right? Spitting heads and vomiting and all of that craziness. That's how people view exorcism. And on the flip side, a lot of people just assume that anything weird going on is ghosts. But the experts that I spoke with, And these are people who are on the front line.

Some of these people are people you know, Sam Rodriguez and many others. You know, the discussion was really centered more on what you just said, that there are no people who are dying and remaining behind. Now, a few experts were open to that. But the idea was that demons will try to trick you into believing they are a deceased loved one. So you go and you try to communicate with your deceased mother. You go to a medium to a psychic.

And you're really not talking to that person, right? So a lot of this, again, it's theory, it's idea, but we have to go back to Scripture, right? When in Scripture did we ever see an example of people coming back to haunt? And I don't want to spoil it now. There are a couple interesting examples in the Bible that people could say, oh, is that an example of somebody dying and coming back? After Jesus's resurrection, for instance, is one example. There's scripture talking about people coming out of their tombs essentially and walking in. It's almost this zombie-like description.

But that's tied to the resurrection, this amazing event. that has only happened once in human history, that's not the norm. So there are no examples that we have in scripture of somebody definitively dying and returning on their own without God bringing them about in some way. We see this with Samuel and Saul. There's another example that I'll give you of God allowing. We don't know if it's the ghost of Samuel or if it's an image that God's allowing Saul to see. But so we don't have those examples. So you have to go back to scripture. And when those experts go back, they don't see an example of a person dying, coming back, and haunting. And when you really get into the meat of these stories,

it really does seem like you're dealing with these demonic entities. You're not really dealing with that deceased loved one. And so I found that really interesting because I've always personally wondered, are ghosts real? And I walked away from the book as a Christian feeling like, well, no, I have no evidence that I could say, I believe. And I have a whole chapter on ghosts in there, that ghosts are actually something that happened in real life. It is, you know, absolutely fascinating to get into this. Because if you talk to many people, almost most people, they have stories that they say, well, I don't like to talk about this or I've never talked about this.

And they tell you story and you think, what is wrong with you? Why aren't you talking about that? That's kind of amazing. Yes. You hear many people have stories of encounters. And I think that the reason that I like to talk about it, and the reason I'm glad you wrote this book is because God wants everything to come out into the light, out into the open, because he has answers. So when I think of people who are dealing with demonic oppression, they're hearing voices, they're dealing with stuff, and they're being manipulated by these demons. It sounds crazy, but I mean, I've talked to many people who've experienced this.

And there are ways to deal with it, ways to pray for them, ways to find out. how you provided an opening for this demonic presence to come into your life. I was talking to a young woman about, well, growing up, she'd watched tons of horror films. And that was one of the ways that these demons came into her life. And as for exorcisms, I mean, I have seen, you know, exorcism is kind of a fancy word. Casting demons out of people, it's a real thing. I've been there when it has happened. I've seen it.

And it's usually not as scary as you would think. It's kind of basic. The power of God is far more powerful, infinitely more powerful than the power of the demons. And the only difference is, do the people dealing with this know that? And if the people know it, they have no fear of demons. They know that the demons are squirming, writhing, and fear of Jesus. So, again, I'm just so glad you wrote the book. What are some of the stories that you can share?

from the book. Yeah, there's one that, and if people go and pre-order it or, and even after pre-order, there's going to be a podcast, the Playing with Fire podcast, where I'm talking with some of the people who told me their stories and even some people who are not in the book. But there's one that really stuck out to me. As I was working on the book last fall, I saw, I noticed this story and it was out of Arkansas, and it was a local affiliate. And I'm always captivated when a media outlet is willing to actually cover one of these stories. And it's very rare. The Indiana case was a great example because everybody covered it. I don't know if you remember, but that, I think it was 2013. That story was everywhere. It was in every, a lot of mainstream outlets covering it.

It was the Indianapolis star that actually broke the story in the first place and they had enough documentation to do it. So I found this other story. It was in Arkansas. It happened last year. It was October of 2019. It was this woman named Amy. And she's telling her story. She was paralyzed from the waist down. And as I'm reading this story, this woman is so brave. I mean, I mean, she goes to the media with this story. She says, look, I was a nurse. I was completely healthy. I was a churchgoer.

And what's interesting and weird about Amy's story is that she can't pinpoint what it was that, as you were saying before, most people could say, okay, I was playing with a Ouija board. I was repeatedly sinning over and over again and not repenting. They all have a reason they think that allowed evil in. Amy can't really pinpoint that. But anyway, she was a nurse, completely healthy, working in a hospital one day. A burn patient came in.

and she said they thought it was it was drug-related meth lab, something like that that had caused his injuries. And that detail stuck out to me because I just thought it was sort of interesting. And as she's caring for that patient, she finishes up. And all of a sudden, she can't walk straight. She doesn't feel normal. She goes home and she was an avid runner. She can't run in a straight line.

She starts having these physical issues that turn very quickly into mental issues where she is within a week being hospitalized. She leaves her job. And she's married. as a family. She basically loses everything over this eight or nine month period, I believe it was. And no doctor can tell her what's wrong with her. She goes to the Mayo Clinic. Everybody assumes some doctors say it's in your head. Other doctors say it's physical. They put her on all sorts of medication. And the story culminates. And I go into it in detail in the book where she is one day on

the second floor of her house and something told her in her head to just drop herself out of the window, not jump, not throw herself out of the window. So she sat back. Her back was facing the window, right? So she's facing inside of the house. And she drops herself out of the window, lands on the platform below, and almost dies. And during this process, a woman who does deliverance ministry hears through the church, through this woman's church, Amy, that Amy is in the hospital and what has happened.

And she goes to the hospital and essentially performs a deliverance and prays over her. and Amy has never had another mental health issues since then, right? So I'm summarizing this story here, but it is a crazy story, and she comes on the podcast. She's in the book talking about this. And again, her family doesn't want her talking about it. People don't want her talking about it, but she feels compelled to help other people through her story.

And so that's just one example. Well, I've heard so many stories like this. Many of them from my friend Ken Fish. I've had him on this program many times telling some of these stories. And they're very clear. There's nothing spooky. It's just, it's an unknown realm, and it's kind of like dealing with disease. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist.

You've got to say, what is this, and what is the way to deal with this? And can fish and others, over time, they begin to recognize symptoms just the way a doctor would, and they begin to say that this seems like this, and then they start praying over that, or they ask the person, have you ever had issues with this? Or were you ever sexually abused? And, you know, you start realizing, look, this is real. And here's the bottom line. People are suffering.

It's not about us intellectually speculating. There are people suffering. They want answers. They want to know why does this happen? Why did that happen? And I'm here to say there are answers and we need to look at it. So again, I'm happy that you've written this book Playing with Fire. We'll have more with Billy Hallowell.

It's the Ircum Taxes Show. Hey there, folks. Talking to Billy Hallowell on the program. His brand new book is called Playing with Fire. There's also a podcast called Playing with Fire. The subtitle of the book is A Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts. And Billy, I just want to say congratulations on using the serial comma before and ghosts. That is appropriate.

Otherwise, it's kind of funny, but I, It makes a difference. Okay, so you talk about all of these different things in here. And I think that there are things that the scripture is not necessarily clear about. They're things that you have to, you've got to do a little guesswork or you say, well, this passage might refer to this or might refer to this. What about the so-called Nephilim? Who are they and how do they possibly figure into the story?

Yeah, this is one of the most fascinating elements. of this debate around what demons are. So the question of what is a demon, I think for most Christians, and this showed up in polling, and you'll see in the book, we actually do a number of polls and surveys among Christian leaders to try to understand what they believe,

and the vast majority of Christian leaders believe that demons are fallen angels, right? And that's what I think most of us have been told. There is a school of thought that they're the Nephileum. And we see this term show up in Genesis. It shows up in the Bible only a couple of times, and we don't get a very good sense of really what these beings are. But there are a number of theories surrounding it.

And you have to extend outside of the Bible a bit to look at some other literature to try to understand and get the ideas surrounding it. So this is part of the mystery, right? The fallen angel piece of this, I think we can understand and pull from scripture. This other element really requires looking back at Noah and the fall of man. and this idea that angels essentially procreated with human women to create these, you know, sons of man, these nephalium, these giants. And there are so many theories. And I go into a lot of this in the book, again, of, you know, whether or not these were wiped away,

these creatures essentially, these hybrids were wiped away. This sounds so wacky. It does. I'm just imagining somebody tuning into this program. What the heck are they? How does that work? It does. And it's because it is, we have.

to be clear. We're now in the realm of pure speculation. There's things that scripture is clear on. And there are other things we simply don't know. I mean, the idea that angelic beings could procreate with human beings, on some level it makes no sense. You can imagine that they, that demons, I mean, you hear of a succubus or an incubus, these are demons that will try to have sex with human beings. It's a horrible, evil thing, but I've heard many stories of this, but you can't actually imagine issue from such a horrific union. So the idea that there are creatures that are the issue of angelic beings and human beings, it doesn't seem to make sense biologically, but I guess people are speculating.

I simply don't know what to make. I here's the thing. I am very cautious on how I deal with this because of everything you just said, it sounds insane, it sounds science fiction. I think whenever we have to extend out to a book like one Enoch, you know, first Enoch and kind of look, which is not in the Bible, right? I was going to say, wait a minute, for one Enoch, I mean, but I don't even know if I've ever looked at that, but that is what we would call, it's not even apocrypha, right? It's an apocryphal book. It's a book that exists, and it may contain some ancient truth in the way that any ancient

literature, the Ili of the Odyssey of the Epic of Gilgamesh, may contain some clues to something. but what is the provenance of this book, the book of Enoch? So the history on it is a little muddied, but we know that Enoch very likely did not write it. So this is why it's not included in scripture. Whenever there's a doubt about authorship or where a book comes from, we have to be very careful. And so it's in this book, though. And here's the thing. And you just mentioned something important.

It may be that other writers in the Bible like Jude would go back and reference Enoch, which is what did happen. So because there's a reference, people will assume, well, it must mean that the book has some sort of biblical significance. Well, no, it must mean that what he's saying specifically, and he does not talk about this theory at all. It's not in the book of Jude. He's referring back to a truth that may be in First Enoch, one Enoch, in there, and that truth may be an eternal truth, but he's not saying the entire book is something that should be biblical. It would be in the canon, and it's not. And so whenever we have to extend outside of scripture to, to try to understand something, that makes me very nervous.

And so I tend to back away from it. Now, there are people, and I have their comments in the book, like Michael Heiser, who's a well-respected theologian, who he believes very strongly in this theory. And so, you know, it's very complicated. I'm trying to sort of simplify it here. But you can read about it in the book. You can see sort of where they go with it. I do think the vast majority of Christians and the vast majority of Christian leaders

settle more on fallen angel because it makes more sense when you look at, at the nature of Satan, and you try to understand that other angels may have left and gone alongside him, right, with their, use their free will to do that. So I didn't spend a lot of time in the book on it, but I have to, I had to address it because it is something that I think is actually creeping up as more of a debate now, where we currently are as this discussion progresses. But personally, it feels so sci-fi to me. And maybe this is just the human part of me, not willing to wrap my mind more around some

of these spiritual elements that I've had a hard time personally embracing that that ideology. I'm not saying it's not true. It's tough to get there, though, for me. Well, look, there's a lot of crazy stuff in scripture that's kind of like leading us in a direction, but it doesn't really clarify. And of course, it's tantalizing. But I want to say before we go to the break, folks, you got to keep your eyes on Jesus. You can get pulled away into all this weird stuff. Beware, because a lot of this stuff is real. It is dangerous. and there are many places in scripture where God commands us, you know, to keep our eyes fixed on him, because we're not safe if we don't.

We'll be right back talking about the new book, Playing with Fire. It's the Eric McIntaxe's Show. Hey there, folks, this is the Eric McAxas show. Yes, I'm Eric Mataxis, and yes, this is the show. I get to talk to people about all kinds of things we call it the show about everything. Today I'm talking to Billy Hallowell about his book, Playing with Fire. a modern investigation into demons, exorcism, and ghosts. Now, Billy, you mentioned that something happened to you now.

This is not in the book, but I thought this is a good place for you to talk about it. With regard to the contract for the book, some kind of a spooky odd something. So tell us what happened. Yeah, you know, this is something that I haven't really been sharing. And it's because, you know, you don't want to go out there and be like, I'm sharing my spooky story to try to sell the book about demons. And because I, listen, I've prayed through this book from start to finish more than I ever had. that was the best lesson for me was to say, is this something I really want to do?

And then say, well, wait a minute, is this something that God wants me to do? So last August, when this opportunity came, it was not an opportunity. I mentioned I had a book contract before on a similar topic. I said no to it. So I was cautious going into it. I had mentioned this on a phone call with a publisher. And I did not fill out a proposal, which, as you know, you've written many books. Eric, the normal procedure is you have a book proposal.

You go through and they made this offer. to do this book with like a one pager basically about the book. And every part of it was dropped in my lap to do. And I was resistant to it. But the day that my agent called me to tell me that I was getting this contract, which I was shocked to hear, my phone rang. I'm talking to him. And my wife sends me a text.

And she's like, that's really weird. She's looking at her phone. And she sends me a screenshot. Siri had gone off. And it said, you know, it had a person's name. This person, do you really want to call this person? person. You know, Siri thought that my wife had said, you want to call this individual's name. And the person that it was referencing was a friend of ours who had died. And it was one of those things

were it always kind of bothered me because I, and I had openly said this. I felt like, man, we didn't really talk to him about Jesus. I never had a chance to. We always wanted to have him over, like come over, come over. And he had this unexpected death before we were able to do that. And it was, it was just a really weird moment. I mean, it was the exact moment. They're calling to tell me this. She's sending me this text. My phone just went off with this number. We wouldn't, it wouldn't have done, she wouldn't have said anything into her phone that would have made that happen because he had been gone for a few years. And it just, there was something about it that really gave me this strange pause. And I'm not saying that a demon made it happen. But it was,

the chances of it happening in that very moment as I'm on the phone and her sending it to me, it freaked me out enough to sit on the book contract for a month and a half and to say, is this something that I want to enter back into because I had had some things that had happened before when I was covering these issues that I found really strange. It's possible that it was that it was God doing this. It felt dark to you. I'm not clear on why it wouldn't be God kind of just nudging you. So it felt uncertain and I wasn't sure.

And I was really backing away because I'll be honest with you. In writing books, you know, a lot of the things that I've done, I've done because I've wanted to advance my own career. I wanted to do things for myself. And what I loved about this project was once I got into it, I really felt like God was guiding the process and he had dropped it in my lap. I, for some reason, was so turned off in that moment. I may be shocked in that moment that I interpreted it as something that was dark when I don't know, I don't know that it was. I know for a fact God wanted me to do this.

He sent me on this path to do this project. And so it's been an amazing process writing this book and being able to talk about this. So there was just something about that in that moment. You know, when you have those moments where something lines up in a strange way, for me, I tend to back away from those things because, and I'll be honest, I was really afraid of this topic, even though I had dealt with it, written about it in very small bits and pieces before I worked on this book, I came to realize, even though I should have known this as a lifelong Christian,

that we have authority over this stuff. We don't need to be afraid of it. We don't need to be in fear over it. And so that was a big gain for me personally. throughout that process, but that moment was strange for me. Well, you know, I think that because this is real, we need to take it seriously and not lightly. In other words, I think that people don't understand

how horrific evil is and how horrific demons are. And I think that if you do, you cling more to Jesus. You understand that without him, you're at the mercy of dark forces. And you can't just pretend they don't exist. But I think a lot of times when it comes to people have all their superstitions, right, and say, oh, knock wood or whatever. You know, they do things that, like, they're trying to, it's like paying off the mafia to leave you alone, you know.

Like, I'm going to do this just in case, you know, I don't want any bad luck or any kind of thing. Well, that's not a biblical view, bad luck. Either your faith is in God and you put your trust in him or what? You're playing this like game of, it's not really, you're living in half measures. You're not really willing to acknowledge that there's a demonic realm, but you're willing to say, well, I better not walk on a ladder, or I better not do this, or I better do that. And you're living your life in fear. And of course, some people, this really takes over their lives.

And so I think that, again, we want to be open about what is real and what is God's answer. And there is a realm, a spiritual realm that hates God, and it is real. And we need to acknowledge it. And again, I think there's so many people listening right now. They've got their stories. I think it's important to know Jesus really is the answer to this. And frankly, many Christians, they don't walk in the authority that Jesus wants them to have. We're supposed to have his authority.

We're supposed to be his ambassadors wielding his power. we do things in his name and the demons should tremble. But I think there are many Christians that tremble at the idea of demons. Absolutely. We're afraid of it. And I was in that moment. I didn't know why that thing happened, right? And I said to my wife, you don't understand.

She had no idea. I'm on the phone right now getting this book offer that I never even filled out a proposal for. But it became very clear moving through the project. This is something I'm supposed to do. I've been kind of haunted by the fact that we're afraid as a church. I mean, look at what's happening in culture. Culture is falling apart.

people are freaking out, people are losing their minds. And I look around and I'm like, we're not talking about any of the difficult stuff. We're afraid to talk about the things that aren't difficult. And here we are. I mean, we did a survey for this book, as I mentioned, through Harper Collins, and we asked 1100 pastors and church leaders, you know, do they believe that demonic forces have the ability to overtake a person? Over 80% of them said yes. Do we believe that demons are active today? 85% said, yes, they are. But then 78% of those people said that, pastors and churches are ignoring these issues. So the majority of them are feeling, yeah, this is important.

It's real. But you know what? Our churches are not dealing with it. Only 17% of churches have deliverance ministry, right? So it's, and even that's controversial. Some people don't think we should be doing deliverance. And the book talks about what deliverance is as well, which is basically. We're going to go to a break.

I want to come back right to that for a final segment. Folks talking to Billy Hallowell. The book is playing with fire. Folks is here from Taxes Show talking to Billy Hallow about his new book, Playing with Fire, a Modern Investigation of Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts. Billy, you just said that there are Christians who don't believe we're supposed to do deliverance, as Jesus did, casting out demons. That seems to my mind preposterous.

What would their thinking be about why we ought not to do that? So there are a number of theories. Not everybody believes that demons are active. The vast majority of Christians do believe that. Some people believe it ended. you know, went with Jesus when Jesus was resurrected that that was sort of the end. But you see other stories after that. You see Paul dealing with demons.

There's a woman who chases them around and drives him crazy. And it says she's, you know, possessed by demons. And that happens after. So, and then there's some people who believe it sort of ended, you know, with Paul. So you have all these different ideas, but we have no indication in scripture that it ended then. And then there are other people who believe that demons are real, but that they can't physically move things, right? They can't physically manifest things.

They can only sort of put ideas into our minds. It's all... It's the eyes in the face of just endless evidence to the contrary. I mean, I don't understand how people can cavalierly say such things when you've got tons of anecdotes that, you know, seem to point in the other direction. It just seems kind of ridiculous to me. People on the mission field in particular have...

Yes. ...up in spades. And they have all kinds of stories. So I'm really, frankly, amazed that Christians, so-called today, could have an issue with this. Or they're just apathetic to it. And I think that's the biggest group of those who, they're just kind of like, well, it might exist,

but it's not something we need to be worried about. Well, look around the world. Look at what is happening right now. I think the most pervasive version of sort of spiritual warfare are the things that slowly erode. And that's what most people, most people are not going to experience a possession. They're not, but some will and some have and some are right now. But there are people who will be influenced through all of these.

these things through media and Hollywood and just what is going on in our world through other people. And even the ideas that are put into our head, the one thing, and this is sort of random, but I wanted to bring it up because it was very interesting to me that really stuck out to me in interviews with people who have dealt with these issues is this idea of having this thought in your mind when you're being afflicted, end your life, end your life, end your life, that it was this constant, you don't matter, you're worth nothing, end your life. And, you know, I am not saying that every single person who commits, I'm just saying that there tended to be this tie between encouragement of suicide for people and that they don't matter and they don't mean anything and demonic affliction. And so that opens up a lot of interesting conversations as well. Again, I am not saying to clarify that every person is possessed who's committing suicide. But what I am saying is that there was a trend among those people who claimed to have these issues that they were experiencing those thoughts. And that was something that I found fascinating and troubling.

It's, it's, it's horrifying to me that there are people who want to avoid this. I think that there are many Christians who are simply embarrassed. They want people to respect them intellectually. And they're afraid that if they talk about this, people will look down their nose at them. It's kind of like voting for Trump. Like, oh, I could possibly do that because I will lose social standing. And I think to myself, folks, you know, you go around once, here we are. why not simply speak the truth with confidence or or talk about things and if somebody has a problem with it, let it be their problem.

But there are many people that's all about their own respectability. And they say, I couldn't possibly talk about demons and angels. I want to have a respectable kind of Christianity. Well, that's not the kind that Jesus had because he went around doing this stuff all the time. And it really, I think, needs to be something people take seriously. And I hope your book, we're out of time, but I just hope your book playing with fire can be a wake-up call for some people because there are others whose lives depend on this. There are people suffering in silence. They don't know where to turn.

Churches need to take this seriously. Churches need to find people to whom they can turn when somebody in the congregation says, I've been having these problems. I am sorry, we're out of time, but I'm so happy for you, Billy, that you decided to write this book. It's playing with fire. Congratulations on it. And I hope we can have you back again soon. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.