The Eric Metaxas Show - Bob Fu (Encore)

Episode Date: October 14, 2020

Dubbed "The pastor of China's underground railroad," Bob Fu relates his suspenseful story of working for the Chinese government by day and pastoring an underground church by night in "God's Double Agent." (Encore Presentation)

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Please keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times. This is your final warning. Now here's your host, Mr. Thrill Ride himself. Eric Mataxis. Hey, folks. I have such a joy on this program to get to speak to people whom I have wanted to meet for a long time. About five years ago, I read a book called God's Double Agent by Bob Fu.

It's one of the most extraordinary stories. The blurb on the cover, it says in big letters, impossible to put down. And I thought, who said that? It says, oh, Eric Mataxis, New York Times bestselling author of Bonhofer. I said that. This is a story that you will not. I don't even need to tell you, stick around. You will stick around because there are very few stories like this.

Mrs. Laura Bush has also given the blurb to the book, but I want everybody to know my blurbs on the cover. Bob Fu, I cannot believe finally I'm meeting you. You have one of the most amazing stories. The subtitle of the book is the true story of a Chinese Christians fight for freedom. I want my audience to get to know about you. First of all, welcome to the program. Thank you, Eric.

It's honor for me to have. I just so thrilled. I want to hear your story. So we've got to start at the beginning. You were born in China. Yes. Okay. Let's talk about what led you to,

to what happened in 1989. Yes, first of all, thank you very much, Eric, for having me. It's really an honor. Look, it's my honor and my audience's honor. Your story is, God is the author of your story. You've lived it. So I'm just, I'm tickled to death that I get to have you in person. I'm also a fan of your book club and if you can keep it.

Don't embarrass me, Bob. That's the latest book. Oh, my book, if you can keep it. Well, now you're an American and you understand. understand that when you're talking about freedom, so many people don't understand it. That's why I wrote that book, but forget about me. I want to talk about you. It was fascinating about faith, word to, and freedom. Yeah, and of course I stole it all from Oz Guinness, who stole it from the founders. But you have taken these ideas of freedom into China. You're a fighter for freedom. You live this.

How did you get to be that way? I don't imagine that you were raised as somebody who was anti-communist. I was actually raised and educated as a communist. Of course. You know, as all the Chinese young men and women had been going through the communist education, we were also always taught as an atheist, Marxist. And when God was mentioned, it was just mentioned as a tool for the foreign, kind of an imperialist for cultural invasion. and the Christianity is the opium of the people.

That was pretty much my concept of religion or Christianity going through my education. And so I was, of course, kind of born in a very poor family. My mother was a beggar. You know, I'm during the 1958 to 1960, the three years so-called great starvation, when Chairman Moore launched this human engineered disaster of so-called a great leap forward moment, more than 20 million Chinese died. 20 million Chinese died. See, people, because my parents have experienced communism in Europe,

many people in America don't understand the genuine evil that is in this world. If you've experienced communism, you're saying your mother was a beggar because the communist state engineered these horrible famines and starvation Stalin did the same thing. This is evil. It is purely evil and pure it. So my mother survived during this starvation time and with her two elder children. My elder brother and elder sister were begging food with her during that three years until she met. with my father and they got married and I was born. So it was really, you know, raising and living

through this humility and experiencing the tremendous injustice and inequality keep me, you know, having a heart for change at least. So initially I thought, you know, I can use my own effort to change others, change my own situation. by maybe become a millionaire. That was my first childhood dream. But you still thought in communist China that it was possible to become a millionaire? Well, at least I want to be rich, to be more accurate.

I felt maybe money was the problem. But then later on, I found actually in communist China, even if you are rich or millionaire, your life and safety would not be guaranteed. And you have no freedom. No freedom. So that's the problem. So in 1989, when I was a sophomore student at university, when millions of Chinese fellow

students took to the street in Beijing, Tianan Square, I felt that might be the best opportunity to make a meaningful change for more freedom, more democracy, and less corruption. So I became one of the students' leaders in my first. school and then I went to Tianan Square and led my students and occupied part of the Tamis Square. So this year is the 30th anniversary. It's an amazing thing and what's going on in Hong Kong is exciting. I just had someone on the program who's part of the Ouija minority. That's right. That's being tremendously persecuted, satanic persecution. I want my audience to know there's evil in this world today. So you were one of these figures,

because in America, of course, we followed this closely, the 1989 Tenement Square protests, and then the bloody, brutal massacre. Yeah. So basically, three days before the massacre happened at Tianan Square, and I left the Tamer Square because my then-girlfriend later on became my wife. Heidi was very sick and sent to the ER for drinking the unclean water at the Tamer Square because we were camping, you know, for hundreds of thousands of students at Tianmen Square. And that, otherwise, I might become one of these tankments blocking the tanks might be killed.

But God rescued my life out of that massacre, you know, the time of a massacre. How many people were killed? At least thousands, you know. I mean, we have to stop and think about this, because we can all picture protests, thousands of people. to think that over a thousand human beings were killed, I think the world has skipped past this rather quickly sometimes. That it wasn't 10. I mean, we talk in America about Kent State. Four students were shot. Horrible tragedy. We're not talking about four. We're talking about a thousand. Thousands. And these are young people standing up for freedom, brutally murdered.

and totally armless and really innocent peaceful protesters. And they were massacred by tanks, by the machine guns, you know, by the so-called People's Liberation Army, sent by our so-called People's Government of China. So that moment really broke all the dreams of our students' leaders because we had never imagined our so-called People's Government and even under the Commonwealth. party would send a military tanks to murder his own people in that way. So that's paved the way

for a spiritual revival among the Chinese intellect. And how so when you say, in other words, you were not one of those killed and you were not there when this suddenly happened. But what did happen? Because this is such a tremendously brutal, evil murder of thousands of young people by the state. And I think you must have, first of all, you must have been stunned. I was stunned, actually, when the next day, if the massacre happened on June 5th, I was at our university's sports arena, and I saw one of my colleagues, a fellow student leader, literally crawled out of the Tianan Square with the blood on his shirt and bare-feited and crying, and kneeling down, crying out to the crowd and to heaven.

and said, they did kill. They did kill. So we were all kind of stunned and in disappointing, despair, and of course later on really disillusioned for like, try to make a reason, like what had happened, why this happened. I want to, we're going to go to a break here, but when we come back, I want to find out how you in the midst of atheist, communist China found God. We'll be right back, folks. I have the honor of speaking to Bob Fu. He's been called the pastor of China's Underground Railroad. We'll be right back. I dreamed I saw the nights in the armor come and saying something were peasants,

St. Drum, and the archers with the tree. Hey, folks. It's here from a Texas show. Many of you know that tens of millions of Christians live in China today. Many of them are leading double lives hiding from the government that really. relentlessly, increasingly persecutes them. Bob Fu, who's my guest today, has been called by the Wall Street Journal, the pastor of China's Underground Railroad.

He's fighting to protect fellow believers from persecution, imprisonment, and even death. I'm holding in my hand his story, fascinating story. It's called God's double agent. Bob Fu, again, welcome. Thank you, Eric. I mean, your story is a story for the ages. I want to ask you, what was it that led you after this horrible massacre? this murder of a thousand plus young people by the state.

What led you somehow to find faith in the midst of an atheist regime? You know, Eric, before the time of massacre, the young men, women in China, we still left with some slim hope for a government institution, a communist party, to reform itself. That's why I almost became a communist party member, already a pre-member. in 1988, 88, 98, sorry. And then when this

government, the Communist Party, would send military tanks and machine guns and start mercilessly kill and murder thousands of people for students. And that really creates the kind of disappointment to see the

and really the dissolution meant to any government institutions. And to me, it was deeper because I thought I have changed some people during my students' years as a student leader in the government kind of approved students' union. But then during the time when I was treated like a criminal after the massacre because of my student leadership, and being investigated, interrogated by a group of Communist Party interrogators. And especially after I learned some of those supposedly changed friends suddenly betrayed me by even telling lies in order to escape their responsibility. So my disappointment also extended to the human nature.

And I felt, you know, how could this happen? Your friends, your buddies could be treated. radio by even telling lies. And then I was full of hatred, resentment against them. And I was really even meditating for a suicide. And, you know, I want to die a glorious death because I would rather die than being sent back to my village as a political criminal in China. You know, So that was the time really God came to my life by a group of American missionaries, I mean, who smuggled Christian books from Hong Kong, from California. And that was the time of my conversion started.

It's an amazing thing. The work that missionaries do, faceless, thankless jobs, they do. these things that change lives. I wouldn't be sitting here with you if we were not for some people, maybe we'll never, we'll meet them, who did God's work to reach you and did reach you with the good news of Jesus, which obviously it's not exactly on every street corner in the middle of China. It is basically the kind of a change they have brought, maybe not recognized by the secular media, is tremendous. I mean, little did the secular media has reported that after 1989,

that the massacre really turned into maybe the greatest redemptive moment in the Chinese history of intellectualism. Wow. So many millions and millions of Chinese intellectuals. You talk about professors, students, business leaders, lawyers have come to Christ. I was regarded as the first general. of Christians in our university after five years of spiritual labor of our American Christian teachers who were English teachers. That was kind of their profession. And they had been praying

for us. And then really after that massacre, the spiritual revival started right there. I mean, I just finally over kind of struck by those I called beautiful words. Later on, I found they are all from the scriptures. You know, something like declared as if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has gone. The new has come.

You know, I was kind of totally amazed and convicted by the fact that, you know, this is a living God who is the Redeemer, the Christian. and the inspirer who is only the agent can make a real change by a reborn a human being from a heart rebirth. Well, it's an amazing thing that this happened to you. And of course, you had to suffer tremendously before you were open to this. But it seems to me, as you said, that there are many millions, tens of millions in China today who are very serious Christian believers. But you say they're in hiding? Oh, many. Right now, the conservative estimate of the number of Chinese Christians

has already reached to over 100 million. I think there's more Christians in China than in the United States. That's kind of crazy, but I think that's about right. Most of them actually are in the kind of unofficial unregistered, you would ordinarily call it the underground church. Church. Yeah, the underground church. I mean, I would call it the real church. These are the people who understand that they are, they're risking their lives for their faith. Yeah. What do you see, well, let's stick to your story. So you come to faith and then what happens in your life? Yeah, my life was really totally changed and transformed. I remember that even the next day after I accept Christ as my savior and the Lord, I find.

mind, even the birds start singing to me and unspeakable joy and compassion, you know, even to those my betrayers. I just feel. So even those who betrayed you, you felt the love and forgiveness for them. Oh, yeah. I just found, I mean, if this is the good news of Jesus Christ about salvation, eternity, you know, how could I hide, you know, by myself without sharing? So I just started that kind of a very basic.

evangelistic moment. And you were, so you were able to get away with this, I guess, for a while, that you start sharing your faith in Christ. That's right. I didn't know the Communist Party's government kind of religious policy on persecution and restriction of public evangelism. Right. Until later on when I was caught. And when you say when you were caught, tell me about that. Well, the first time was right after I became Christian, I started sharing with my fellow classmates. students and professors in our English department. And then one day, the public security agent just pulled me aside while I was walking at the campus. And he was starting lecturing and warning against me and said,

this is the holy ground kind of a communist party in the university. The students are supposed to be successors of communism. You can't share your superstitious message. and I was warned that I could be in prison if I continue to do so. And of course, later on, I realize the prison theology is not an option in the Chinese Christianity. What do you mean prison theology is not an option? Basically, you know, those who entered into my life after I became Christian, the house church leaders kept telling me, said,

if you want to be a faithful follower and minister to the Word of God in China, the first theological course you need to take is not systematic theology or hermeneutics. It's called prison theology. It means everybody has to go to prison to study about this. And the pastor who married me and Heidi, my wife, spent almost 22 years in prison. And the pastor who baptized me spent 17 years in prison. We have so many American pastors who are afraid of losing their tax-exempt status by speaking from the pulpit about certain issues. We have people who are afraid of losing their jobs in America by speaking about Jesus or something. And you're telling me that the basic step of faith in China, if you want to know you're serious, you have to be willing to go to prison.

I mean, I think if a tenth of the American Christians had this attitude, the world would be changed in a month. Amen. I mean, this is a Chinese Christian community. This is the normal Christian life. I mean, this is going to get us to watch Mani and the normal Christian life, one of the great books of the 20th century. We're going to be right back. I'm talking to Bob Fu. The book is God's Double Agent, the true story of a Chinese Christian's fight for freedom.

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And Chris Heim's Ann Albin pointed out to me that there's like three pages of you whose first name is Eric. You yourself. I mean, that's humiliating for me that even though your name is Eric, you're still not willing to use the code Eric. I mean, if you don't want to use it because it's my name, use it because it's your name. But the point is that I see who you are, and I just feel humiliated by this. Please go to go to mypillar.com. It's okay, Mike. It's going to be okay.

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coming after me, coming for to carry me. Hey there, folks, it's here from Texas Show. I'm talking to Bob Fu that's spelled F.U. It is God's double agent. The book is God's double agent. Bob Fu, you went to prison for your faith in Jesus, and you escaped from prison. Tell us this story.

Yeah, so when I took my job as an English teacher in the Communist Party School in 1993, I knew, you know, the prison theology, is not kind of a selective or elective course. You have to take it. So I pray to the Lord, I said, give me three years, and at least I feel my faith is still not strong enough to face the prison theology.

So you knew you're going to go to prison, but you're asking God to prepare you. Yes. And for some reason you believe that you need a few more years to strengthen your faith. Yes, that was kind of a good excuse for being scared. And then 1996, when I was already an underground church pastor at the evening, and my daytime job was the Communist Party schoolteacher, a Gestapo agent.

And then my wife and I were both arrested. We were accused of engaging illegal evangelism or illegal religious activities. Right. And threw into the Communist Party in prison in Beijing. for a short time, kind of what I call it an intensive course for prison theology. And what was that like? Because I have no sense of what prisons are like in China. Well, the first three days and nights basically is nonstop interrogation.

The security officials, specifically interrogate you in a designated room in prison 24 hours a day. in rotation. You and your wife? Yes, but we were separated. Of course. Yeah, in different cell, I mean, different integration room. Yeah. I actually didn't know Heidi was also in prison until later time. And they basically beat you, they knock your head, they kick you, the, I mean, kind of that would not allow you to have any sleep.

And when I could not really bear and almost, you know, fell asleep, they just, knock you and kick. I mean, basically start beating you up. So that was, I mean, usually the first round of interrogation for a few days was the hardest until then they threw you into a prison cell. Actually, I fell inside the prison cell, God immediately empowered me and enabled me to turn the prison cell into a prison choir. And it's just, I have never failed, you know, kind of God's so vivid presence in my whole ministry in my life than in prison. Because you see life turned.

You see those prisoners when they heard the gospel, they're kind of instant, really. So you're sharing your faith in the prison? Yes, yes. Yeah, you kind of assume like we're supposed to know that. You know, Americans, I mean, I'm just in awe because here you are beaten for your faith. And then as soon as you're in the prison, you begin sharing your faith with prisoners who do not know Jesus. That's right. You didn't know.

We were, I mean, threw into that prison cell, it's like 15 square meter for 20, 30 prisoners squeezed together. And what could you do? So every day. And so I just start sharing the gospel and teaching them how to give thanks for the Lord by singing these songs. And so everybody kind of regarded me as their personal counselor by the end of the second. Yeah, you're the Communist Party's worst nightmare. I love the idea that they put you in jail and it's worse than if they kept you out of jail. That's right.

Actually, the Communist Party now had a new regulation that forbid any two of the United States. three Christians are in the same prison sale because they know in the Bible, I guess, that two or three together in the name of Jesus, there is a church. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so you're in prison. How long were you in prison? We were there for only two months in that prison cell. Okay. And what happened after the end of this? We were released temporarily and immediately under house arrest after that two months and we were being followed every step of our walk and then the Communist Party School fired me and so then my wife was pregnant without a pregnancy permit. Excuse me? Your wife was pregnant without a pregnancy permit. Yes. You need a permit.

Yes. I should have known that since they have forced abortions. The family planning system would only allow you to get pregnant, even for the first child, to get a quota first. Because for those of us who work, especially in the government, in the Communist Party system, you have to wait for the quota to come, even though we got married for three years. People wonder what is big government like. And this is just an example here, that you have a government beginning to control all parts of your life, and they are telling you when you can get pregnant. And if you get pregnant, when you're not supposed to get pregnant, forced abortion. They kill your baby. That's

right. I want people to understand this. Now, this was in the 90s. Are things similar today in China as you're describing them? Things changed a very little bit. It's the Communist Party allows like two children per family instead of one, but still the family planning system still exists. There are a million Chinese family planning officials whose only job is to monitor women's wombs. We're going to be right back, folks, amazing stuff. Talking to Bob Fu, God's double agent is the book, Stick Around. your city.

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So you're under house arrest, but then eventually you go back in prison. Well, we were actually not caught after we escaped from Beijing. Okay, so you were under house arrest. Yeah. Okay. Okay, but you escaped? Oh, we were kind of detained like another time for very briefly. Okay, but how, first of all, when you decided to escape, I mean, this is very serious stuff.

What made you and your wife decide that the only way to deal with this situation is escape? It's really primarily to protect our first child, you know, not to be forcefully abroad it. and so we also learned we would be re-arrested around the Chinese National Day. Excuse me, so what you're saying is your wife is pregnant. Yes. And if you do not escape, your child will be killed by the state. Yes. How old is your child now?

22 years old. And where's your child today? He's here in the stadium now. He's here in the room? He's in the room. It's that guy over there, that big guy? Yes, yes. You know, this gets very real when this gets very real.

Okay, so your wife is pregnant and you know you must escape to preserve the life of your son who's sitting here now. How do you do this? Well, we really, by Le Pufth, we escaped. I kind of jumped out of the second or third story of building Communist Party's suvet-style, very tall building. You jumped out of a building. Yes. Why did you need to do that? Because our building was sealed under house arrest, you know.

Oh, I'm sorry. I forget. So you're under house arrest in this building. The only way for you to get out is to jump out of a window. A window of a toilet room. And so I almost lost consciousness for a few moments. You didn't break any legs? By God's grace, miraculously, I did not.

But it was like a tough moment. and I was literally lost consciousness and then crawling on the ground. How did your wife escape? Well, she was disguised herself as somebody else and then kind of ran away. And then we kind of went, I mean, escaped outside Beijing first and hiding in the countryside and to find a kind of a doctor in the local village. to do some check up for my wife's pregnancy. And then really God shows his miracles.

And by opening the door, we escape to Hong Kong. And this was 1997? Yeah, later in 1996 to 1997. Okay. So somehow you were able to escape to Hong Kong. Yes. And this is two years before Hong Kong becomes part of China. A year, yeah, 1997 was the handover to China.

Oh, I'm sorry, right. Yeah. Wow. So three days before Hong Kong was handed over to China, we were accepted as the U.S. refugees into the land of the freedom, finally. The United States of America. Many Americans don't appreciate America because my parents are, you know, immigrants from places not quite as bad as China, but in some ways close. They taught me to appreciate what we have here. and you are living proof that people want to come to the land of the free.

Because the land of the free means you really are free. You can have as many children as you like. That's right. You can preach on the street corner. You can believe as you believe. Yeah. And we did break the quota and we have two more girls. You have three kids now?

Yes. Hooray. Yes. I love it. He broke the quota. Wow. So is there anything you want to share about this escape? Any miracles or any close calls? Because I forgot, you know, it's been so long since I read your book. But this is no small thing to escape the communists when they know that you are on the lamb, as we call it. I mean, you are gone suddenly. I mean, you're supposed to be there. Suddenly you're gone. And they know you're on the run. Yeah, I still remembered when we finally able to escape, you know, by really miracles. I mean, some people that we didn't even know just make up some fake documents, passport,

and Heidi and I were, like, treated as, like, not married, you know. And finally, on the airplane heading to Bangkok, to Thailand, is two of, and we were kind of with tears, basically knowing, you know, on the one hand, we're heading for freedom, but on the other hand, we know for foreseeable future we cannot return. And it was a very emotional journey. Of course, you know, you're leaving your family behind. Yeah, this is, tremendous. But so we settled in Hong Kong, waiting for another country. to accept ours and we're waiting and waiting. And literally, I mean, like two weeks before Hong Kong was handed over to China,

we were told by the U.S. consulate in Hong Kong that the U.S. government will never accept the Fus family to resettle into the U.S. Why? Why? Because we were not very well known. And we perhaps were the first House Church Christians to, to be kind of escaped. Was the Clinton administration not really in tune with what was happening?

Well, the U.S. Consular General, I mean, the officers didn't even know what is a house church at the time. You're kidding. You are kidding. You are kidding. You know, when the interview to me, they said, oh, what is the house church? Tell us the story. Is there real persecution? This is in the late 1990s?

Yes. Late 1990s. Yes. This is sick. This is really sick. I am shocked that my country at that high level would be unaware of this kind of thing. Well, it was really a very sad situation. So we have a lot of good friends from Washington, from other people of the world, to try to lobby, try to help us, and they were not moved. But really, God moved, even Bill Clinton. At the last minute, he granted our acceptance.

Unbelievable. That's extraordinary. So you've been in the United States for over 20 years? Yes, 22 years. And was your son born in the United States? He was born in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong. As a stateless refugee.

A stateless refugee. Okay, we're going to be right back final segment with Bob Fu. Folks, don't go away. Doing a campaign with the Alliance defending freedom, we're begging every one of you to give something, anything, a small amount, a non-small amount. either will do. The number is 855-5-4-7-53-8-55-5-4-7-53-53. Hey there, folks, it's here on the Texas show talking to God's double agent, Bob Fu. Bob, I hope we can keep you just for one more segment into the next hour because there's so much to talk about.

So you, by the grace of God, managed to come to United States, and what have you been doing all these years. I mean, I imagine that a lot of your efforts are to help your fellow Christians in China. How can you do that? I don't know if you can talk about it publicly. Yes, I can share some. I mean, we are really deeply indebted, of course, to this country, to the freedom-loving people and brother and sisters like, you know, Ron Lewis, our mutual friend, who was a tremendous hero and sponsor for our family to come over as refugees, you know, a pastor from from North Carolina. Ron Lewis and his wife Lynette are dear, dear friends.

And when I heard about his connection to you, I was kind of amazed, really. I wasn't aware of it. We knew each other back to, you know, more than 25 years ago. He was ministering to the Antoine Church. I was organizing the students' leaders for his leadership training program. And it was really a lot of people. It should be grateful and thankful. Anyway, so I ended up studying at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia and started my summer Greek.

And it was a little torture for somebody who has not mastered English yet. But, you know, every night when I come back home and looking at my child could sleep peacefully without worrying about his parents be taken away. and when I heard phone calls, I mean, from my fellow Chinese Christians from China that they were being readed, arrested, and tortured, sometimes was live. You know, on the phone, I could hear their cries when these told me, Pastor Bob, they are coming. They're knocking my door. And the Chinese state security agents were, you know, reading our church and start carrying out Bibles away. you know, from their home, I just could not sit there, you know, silently or just stand alone, you know, steel without at least speaking up for them as a voice for those voiceless brother and

sisters. Speaking of which, I want to hold you on for another segment. We'll keep you into hour two today. But what can Americans do? Because when I hear about these things, when I had this young man here who's talking about the weger's, these. Muslims who are being persecuted. When I hear you talking about infinitely more Christians being persecuted, I think to myself, the United States has tremendous power, economic power, military power.

And it seems to me if we don't use it, God will judge us. In other words, it seems to me that the President of the United States, President Trump, needs to use the leverage that we have for human rights and religious liberty in China. I don't know who has his ear on this subject, but we have tremendous ability right now. And what do you see possible? Oh, we do, Eric. We have the, I mean, we still, as the word, the most powerful, you know, free country on this earth. I mean, when the president and vice president, when the member of Congress speak for freedom to the communist regime in China, and they have to listen.

I mean, we know for sure that many over the years when our ministry, China, aid, started to, like, sending some words to the White House. For instance, in 2002, when we received news that five of the 17 one group of House church leaders were sentenced to death. And I communicate with the White House, the president himself, President Dr. W. Bush, when he visited China, and spoke about it. All the five death sentence were overturned. Okay, so we have tremendous power in the United States. We need to use it. Thankfully, we're going to keep you on for another 10 minutes.

Bob Fu, don't go away. Folks, if you can listen to Hour 2, more with Bob Fu. Hey, folks, you can listen to the rest of this interview on our YouTube channel, the Eric Metaxa show. Please subscribe. Thank you.