The Eric Metaxas Show - Bonhoeffer Film

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Eric breaks down the Bonhoeffer film and his best selling book that inspired it.

Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Eric Mataxis show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you can protect your wealth with noble gold investments. That's noblegoldinvestments.com. Ladies and gentlemen, are you ready to listen to a man of grace, sophistication, integrity, and whimsy? Well, so are we. But until such a man shows up, please welcome. Eric Mattaxas. Hey there, folks. This is a very special. I can use the word special.

A very special edition of the Eric Mataxis show. Because the Bonhofer movie is coming out, or maybe it's already out, and we thought, you know, maybe I should let my friend, at least we've been friends up until now, Chris Himes, interview. you meet about Bonhoeffer. So Chris, yes, hello. No pressure, but well, here we go. What do you got? I feel like this is like that movie, parent trap, you know,

where the kid and the child, they trade places. Yeah. The parent and the child trade places. Exactly like that. It's like that. I get to be the, usually I'm running around saying who's going to be on the show. Are they ready? Yeah. And today it's I and you. Yeah. So this is very special. I, yeah, I'm not normally in this

position of answering the questions. But the Bonhofer thing, it's fascinating because the film is coming out November 22nd. November 22nd. So it's taken years and years to make the film. The producers were inspired by my Bonhofer book in making the film.

That was a perfect setup to my first question for you, which is how do you feel knowing that the book that you work so hard on inspired in some way the attention to this character that is now the subject of the Angel Studios film. Like, how does that feel for you? Is that surreal? Are you sad that, and then I have a follow-up, are you upset that you weren't cast in the film in a supporting role, perhaps, as a good German, you know, I wanted to be cast as Hitler's brother. Well, I know. People think I'm joking. I'm going to bring that up later. That's not a joke. That's true. But it didn't work out. But I do, I want to talk about that in the course of the conversation. But,

let's just be clear I never ever ever had an ambition to write a biography I just I always say that I'm far too self-centered to want to spend that much time talking about some other person right usually gets a huge laugh

Yeah no that's good that's good But honestly I never had an ambition to write a biography and if you had asked me you know when I was in college I knew I wanted to be a writer after college I wanted it but if you'd ever ask me do you think you'll ever write a biography, I would have said emphatically, no. It may be sometime in the course of my whole life, maybe I'll end up writing one or something, but it was not on my horizon. So without getting into it, I wrote the biography of Wilberforce called Amazing Grace, and that's itself an extraordinary story.

But I never thought I'd write that book. So I wrote that book. And I, Everywhere I went, people kind of thought, oh, Eric's found his genre or his matriet. He's now going to write biographies. And they said, who are you going to write about next? Who are you going to write about next? Some people correctly asked about whom. Yes, that would be correct. And I thought, I never meant to write a biography.

I certainly don't know that I'll write too. But if I ever did write another biography, I would write it about Dietrich Bonhofer, because I knew enough about his story. I didn't know much, but I knew enough to think that he's worthy of a biography. obviously at some point I was persuaded, nah, why don't you take a crack at it? And the reason I wrote it is not just because his is such an extraordinary story, but because no one, in my opinion, had told it properly.

There were books, I mean, his best friend, Abrahard Badega, wrote an 1,100-page brick. The paperback literally weighs five pounds. Wow. It's not readable. It's amazing. It's like a research book. but I thought his story is so amazing.

Somebody needs to just tell the story, and there really isn't such a book. So that's why I thought, well, okay, let me take a crack at it. And without going into that whole story, it was a very, very difficult experience. I won't get into why, but it was very, very tough. And all I could think of was I would like to move on with my life. I want to put this to bed, let it get published,

and let me just do something else. I never dreamt, ever, never dreamt that it would be any kind of a success. It was an agony to write, an agony to get published. I talk about that in my miracles book. I tell the story, agony. And I just wanted to be done. And so it came out in April of 2010. And I think two months later, Chuck Colson, for whom I'd worked and whom I revere,

said to me in an email that everywhere I go, people are talking about your Bonhofer book. I thought, you've got to be kidding. Like, wherever I go, nobody's talking about the Bonhoffer. What world are you in, you know? But from when I heard that, more and more and more, I kind of got this idea that somehow it has struck a nerve. And so I was genuinely mystified.

I'm not being falsely humbled. humble, I was really mystified. I thought, well, I'm glad that's nice. But it kind of kept going and kept going. I was on Glenn Beck. And so pretty soon afterward, people were talking about, you do see this being a movie. Right.

And I thought, yeah. Yeah, in your dreams. So my wife, Tiffany, as you know, helped out a little bit with, she has a journalism background, helped out with the footnote part of the book. where you had pulled in footnotes and she had resource or reference things.

This is many, many years ago. Yeah, many, many years ago. But she read the book, and when she finished it and read the storyline about the fiancé, she said, this has to be a movie. The love story part of it as a woman, and I think this is part of the mystery of the success,

is why, she says, why you saw women all over beaches, in some case you would run into them, some of them reading the books. You know, you had some pictures on vacation. By the way, Louisiana doesn't know about all the women I run into on beaches. I know, I know. So I don't want to, we'll just cut that out.

If you don't mind, just cut that out and post. But no, seriously, I got to be. But that was the phenomenon thing of like it was in some cases a beach read, which you wouldn't think of. Yeah. You know, you wouldn't think Bonhofer book Beach Read, but that's what it was. The first time I knew that it had kind of like hit another level was no joke. Duck Dynasty had just come out. and somebody told me that they did like,

they went on a trip to Hawaii, the Duck Dynasty family, with whom I'm now friends, right? But that they, in 2011 or something like that, they went on a trip to Hawaii, and I think Willie's wife was reading your Bonhoffer book at the pool or something like that. I thought, what the hell? What is going on?

Now, to be clear, the film is not officially based on my book. Right. But there is no doubt that the producers, the Camporus, were inspired to make a film from reading my book. So, no, I never really dreamt that that could happen. But of course, I'm thrilled because the story of, I mean, why did I write the Bonhoeffer story? Because I want to lead people to Jesus.

If you encounter the figure of Bonhofer, it is such a rare expression of faith in life, in action. It's such a powerful expression of Christian faith that it cannot, it cannot help but make you want to fall in love with the God with whom Bonhoeffer had fallen in love. It just, it's inevitable that when you encounter the life of Bonhofer, you're led toward God, toward truth, toward courage. So, you know, that's, it's, it's gratifying, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about, I don't know you don't want to go into it too much, but the writing process for you, I know you've used words like agony and in hellish because it is, it is hard. It has been hard for you. I know that doing that is challenging and difficult, but you're burdened with this, you know, bringing, it's almost like a birth, right? You were burdened with this birthing this story that sort of went on to have a life of its own. And it's painful. But what, you know, what? What do you want to share, maybe in short, I know we only have a little bit of time left, but like, how would you describe that for people out there who probably have a missing? The writing process?

Yeah, because some people probably think it's glamorous. You have some, like, you know, writing place in Connecticut or somewhere. Yeah, I think people. Glamorous idea. People who don't write, people who aren't writers, picture like, oh, you're sitting, you're at a table outside a cabin by a lake in the, you know, in the mountains or something like that. and you've got your cup of postum, and you're just being inspired to write. And to me, I've never had that experience.

Writing is much more like, you see that pile of rocks. Like, we need you to move them over there. Like, you've got just a few hours, and, you know, it's pure work. So anyway, I know we're at a time for this segment. We'll be right back. Hey, folks, we're officially in that time of the year, where eating becomes way off balanced. Parties, holidays, family gatherings

always mean more snacks, more sweets, and generally indulging in all the wrong foods. And when your eating habits get off balance, so can you. That's why I strongly recommend balance of nature daily supplements. Their fruits and veggie supplements are sourced from whole fruit and vegetable ingredients, all the things you may be missing, all the things you need to make up for being off balance during this eating season.

Make sure you're getting more of a variety of fruit and vegetable ingredients every step of the way with balance of nature. Start a trend toward better health today with my special startup offer. Whether you order online or call them direct, you must use the promo code Eric to get 35% off plus free shipping and their money back guarantee. Call them at 800 2468751 and use discount code Eric or order online at balance of nature.com. Use discount code Eric to get 35% off plus free shipping. Holy cow. How do they do it?

There's a revolution happening right above our heads. It's about to make silver more precious than ever. The sun's power is taking over the world. It's growing so fast it'll be the biggest source of electricity by the 2030s. Solar. Here's the kicker. Every single solar panel needs silver to work. We're talking about a silver-paced web in every panel turning sunlight into power.

Smart investors are already making their move, and that's where noble gold investments comes in. With the silver IRA, you can surf this incredible wave of growth. It doesn't matter who sits in the White House or what we're going to. Wall Street does, solar power is unstoppable and silver is its secret weapon. As the world goes green, your retirement could be going sterling silver. Don't let this opportunity slip through your fingers in 2024. Visit noblegoldinvestments.com. You may get up to 10 free brand new one ounce silver trump coins or a 10 ounce silver American flag bar with every qualifying IRA. That's noble goldinvestments.com.

Welcome back. If you're just tuning in, Chris Himes, my producer and friend, is interviewing me about my Bonhoeffer book. So you just asked me about the writing process. It is hard. People glamorize it. It is, it's very hard work. And I think why do people glamorize it? I think since the romantic period, right? So for about 200 years, we have this idea, which is a false idea, that art is self-expression, that it's all about, I'm going to tap into something and I'm going to express myself and whatever. And that's garbage. That's nonsense. It's not about

self-expression. It's about communicating. It's you know, or it's like doing a painting. It is work. Right. Or a sculpture where you start with a block of marble. Yeah. You have to chip away at it. It's hard work. And I can certainly say

at least in my experience, it's very hard. It's very hard. So whatever, you know, a lot of good things are worth the effort. Yeah. So I have to tell you, I, you know, in preparation for this interview, I've spent many minutes on it. You prepared? Many minutes. Many minutes. Why? I asked the robots out there. It used to be about the kids, you know, what do the kids want. Now it's all about algorithms and robots. Right. So I asked the robots out there for some questions, some lighthearted, some serious. And you know what? The robot was a little snarky,

I feel like. You used AI to quote unquote prepare? Yes, to get some questions. Okay. I don't consider that preparation. Well, here we go. So some are a little bit lighthearted and some are a little more serious, but one of the lighthearted questions was, which I thought was okay. If you could invite Bonhoeffer to a dinner party today, which modern historical figures would you see in between, and how do you think he would handle the small talk? Okay, my first response is shut up robot. I don't talk to you. See, that's what I'm saying. But I thought you should know that robots.

Yeah, that's really lame. I'd rather. You've thought of your own lame questions. Well, I like that one. I think it, I won't really answer that because I think that one of the things that happened to me in writing the Bonhoeffer book, I alluded to this earlier, you cannot help but falling in love with him. He is such a magnificent human being. And there's something painful about that. I spent so much time with him. And one of the reasons that I see. stand behind the book the way I do is because it's mostly Bonhoeffer. It's not me really writing

about him. I'm using his journals, his diaries, his letters. And you can't help, if you read my book, you can't help but get close to him as a person, which is interesting because I think one of the reasons people didn't, people were confused about him kind of until my book came out is because they would read Bonhoeffer himself. And Bonhofer is not a compelling writer. He's an incredibly brilliant. I mean, super genius. But his writing is very dense, very theological, very difficult. And when you actually get to know him as a person, which I did in the course of writing it and which people do in the course of reading my book, you really do, you sort of fall in love with him. And, but it's a little painful because he can't call him up on the phone.

Yeah. And so when I finished writing the book, I really, I had to push it away. I just thought it's just, it's just too painful in a sense. Like I miss him. I feel like I know him. Right. I look forward to seeing him in heaven. But it really is, it's interesting.

But I also think there's a temptation to hagiography where you make him out to be some superhuman or something like that. And, you know, he wasn't. I mean, he was an extraordinary human being. There's just no doubt about it. But he was a person. And that's what's, to me, so compelling about him. Was there anything that you didn't put in the book that was sort of cut out that people

might be surprised to hear about? Is there anything I didn't put in the book? Yeah. Was there anything? Absolutely not. Really? I put, I mean, that's one thing. I pride myself in all my books.

If it's interesting or important, I'm putting it in there. If it's funny, I'm definitely putting it in there. But no, I wanted, I mean, this gets back to why I wrote the book. There was no, to my mind, definitive book on Bonhoeffer. I could sort of say the same thing about my Luther biography. There wasn't one, I mean, the Roland Bainton one was definitive, but it came out in 1950. That's 70 years ago.

And there wasn't a book that had everything. There were some books they would kind of talk about this aspect, the Bonhofer or that aspect. But I thought, I want soup to nuts. I want the whole story. And I think part of the reason some of the previous books on Bonhoffer failed to me is because

they assumed, oh, you know all about World War II history, or you know all about the church struggle in Germany. Most people don't know about that stuff. Most people in this generation don't know about that stuff. So I had to put that in there. I also had to put in, you know, kind of like the setting for the stone.

I had to put in what the Nazis were doing. I had to put in what Hitler was doing so that when you're reading about Bonhoeffer, it kind of stands out against what he was dealing with. So a lot of the previous books kind of assumed that you, oh, you'd know that, so we're just going to focus on Bonhofer. So, yeah, so really I don't think I left anything out. And as a result of that, the book is 600 pages long.

Yeah, it's very long. But I don't. And there's a shorter version. There's an abridged version. That's right. Is that right? I heard of rumor about that. For stupid people, they have printed a, and I don't mean that in a mean way.

No, I know. I know. You mean it in a, yeah. I read the pop-up book. That's what I started with. And that was very short. I'll tell you the truth. This is true.

This is part of the agony I alluded to in the previous segment of writing the book and getting it published. The original publisher, who will remain nameless, um, insisted. that I pretty much cut the book in half. Yeah. Because it was, you know, over six. That's crazy.

Nobody's going to buy a 600. But I, and they, you know, they rightly said, yeah, nobody's going to buy 600 page book. But when I realized what I had, I thought, if you're telling me to trim the fat, I'll trim the fat. But there's like 10 pages or five pages of fat. I know, because that's how I write. I'm not. There's not a lot of fat here to be trimmed. You're telling me to cut meat and bone.

I'm not going to do that. The book is 600 pages because it needs to be 600 pages. And so I stuck by my guns. I got a different publisher. God bless Thomas Nelson and David Mowberg. And they published it as I wrote it. And lo and behold, it sold a million copies. It was the book of the year.

It really dramatically outperformed any expectations I had. But I knew that it needed to be what it was, that I couldn't do a short version of it. Yeah. So trimming the fat on a book, it sounds like you're an author who might fat shame other books. Is that true? Would you say that's accurate? I don't know what you mean. You know, just another book has too much. Well, no. I mean, the funny thing is, yes, I'm very critical.

I mean, I think the reason people read my books is because I'm very harsh critic of all writing. If it's not compelling, why would people read it? People are busy. People have got other things to do. I really do feel like you need to, you know, it should be an important. entertaining. It should be fascinating. It should be what. I mean, why would people wade through something that's not those things? Now, I don't mean that you want to kind of tart it up. Of course not. But you have to find a story that is all those things, first of all. And then you have to tell the story well. And the biggest compliment that I've gotten over the years, no kidding,

is tons of people have come up to me, usually guys, middle-aged or older guys come up to me and say, like, you know what, I'm not a reader. I don't read books, but I read your whole book. I read the whole thing. That's, to me, the greatest compliment. Who was a surprise to you that had read it? Somebody that you would never have expected to read it. All kinds of strange, Dan Rather read it.

Wow. Former Senate leader Harry Reid read it. I mean, people on the left and the write Reddit. Lots of people read it. I handed a copy to President Obama. I was going to say, tell us about that story because I was pretty sure he didn't read it. Yeah. Tell us about that Obama story because there's a great photo.

Share this. You were at the Men's, or sorry, the prayer breakfast, National Prayer Breakfast. You were the speaker that year. And like any good author, you plugged your book at the end of your speech, which was an incredible speech. Nobody else would go watch it on YouTube. But you hand the book

to President Obama. President Obama. Yeah. And then afterwards. Well, I was sarcastic, as I can be. You were talking about life, actually. Well, I was, the National Prayer Breakfast, this was 2012. So yeah, the book comes out in 2011, and by 2011, suddenly I'm like the flavor of the year in, you know, certain Christian circles. And I got this invitation to be the speaker at the National Prayer Breakfast. And I thought, I mean, I'm not making this up. I was so stunned. I thought, this isn't right. They're going to ask me, like, to read a scripture or something. previous speakers at the National Prayer Breakfast were like Tony Blair, Mother Teresa, Bono.

You know, like, I'm not going to be the speaker. So when I found it, I was actually the speaker, I couldn't believe it. And so, yes, I spoke. It went viral. Like it really, it was kind of game-changing in my career. And at some point, I was referring to the Bonhofer book because I was talking about Bonhofer. and I said I was being sarcastic

deliberately cheeky and sarcastic I know we have to go to a break when we come back I'll tell you what I mean I like knowing exactly where my meat comes from and with Moink that place is from small family farms all across the country and you can help save the family farm and get access to the highest quality meat

when you join the Moink movement today. Moink farmers farm like our grandparents did, and that means meat tastes like it should. Moink delivers grass-fed beef and lamb, pastured pork and chicken, a sustainable wild-caught, Alaskan salmon delivered straight to your door. The Moink difference is one you can taste, and you can feel good knowing you're helping family farms stay financially independent too. Keep American farming going by signing up at Moinkbox.com slash Eric right now, and listeners of this show get free bacon for a year. You choose the meat delivered in every box, like ribbyes, chicken breasts, pork chops, or salmon. salmon fillets and so much more, plus a free year of bacon, and you can cancel it anytime.

That's one whole year of the best bacon you'll ever taste, but only for a limited time. Spelled M-O-I-N-K-box.com slash Eric. That's moinkbox.com slash Eric, moinkbox.com slash Eric. Hey, this is Eric Mettaxas. For years, I've told you about Nutrametics, a professional supplement brand trusted by doctors since 1993. NutriMedics offers a variety of health bundles. Whether you want to support your immune system, improve your system, improve your sleep, promote joint comfort or detoxification support, Neutrametics has a health bundle right for you.

The best part about Neutrametics, every year they donate a minimum of 50% of their profits to Christian charities and missions. That's right, 50% of their profits. Neutrametics has a goal of surpassing $100 million in giving by 2030. Many of you take supplements already. Switch to Neutrametics. It's the highest quality, and they donate 50% of their profits. Get 15% off by using the code Eric during checkout. Go to Nutrametics.com.

Search health bundles, support your health while helping others in need. Go to Nutrametics. That's N-U-T-R-A-M-E-D-I-X.com. Neutrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. Again, Nutrametics, N-U-T-R-A-M-E-D-I-X.com. Neutrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. So, Chris, I was just saying at the prayer breakfast, I was being sarcastic. So here's what I did. I was really like, you know, I can be like a little bit.

So to color the story, you're standing by. behind the dais, the podium. I'm at the podium. And two feet away is Obama, and next to him as Biden. Is President Obama? No, no, no, Biden was next. I had breakfast with Joe Biden. And so I'm speaking.

I'm talking about the Bonhofer book, and I say a lot of people have read the book. And then to be the jerk that I am, I said, in fact, President George W. Bush read my book. And I paused. Like, you can just feel the uncomfortableness of people like, uh-oh. And I said, and of course, and we know he's intellectually incurious, you know, which got a laugh because somebody had called him intellectually incurious. And I said, so if he could read the book, you know, I figure maybe this president would want to read the book too.

And so I took it from under the podium and I handed it to Senator Jeff Sessions, who handed it to the president. And I said, no pressure, Mr. President. I know you got a lot of time on long flights and, you know, you need something to do. So, you know, have fun. Or something like that. So he holds up the book. Yeah, he holds it up.

And the AP and all the news services took pictures and stuff. So it was just, you know, to use the cliche, it was a surreal experience. Yeah. But it got a lot of people to read the book. And then afterwards, you got a picture with Obama. And you want to tell them who took your picture? Oh, my gosh. This is insane.

It sounds like I'm making this up. No, it is. It's great, though. I was amazed. I mean, I'm the main speaker at the prayer breakfast. I'm the guy that day with, you know, 3,500 people in the ballroom in the Washington. Hilton. And the other main speaker is the president of the United States. And I thought for sure the White House photographer is going to take a picture of me with the president. I've never

gotten a picture with the president before. This is exciting. Never happened. So like the event's over and the president is leaving or something. Then he decides to kind of go down the line and shake everybody's hand. I was like, I've got to pull out my phone to take a selfie with President Obama since the White House is not going to take a photo with me. So as the president approaches me, I take my phone out. And Vice President Joe Biden says to me, no, no, no, give me that phone. He says, I'll take it.

So this is the avuncular good side of Biden. Sure, sure. And he very generously says, I'll take it a second. So Joe Biden, the vice president of the United States, takes a picture of me with the president of the United States. And even weirder than that, a couple of weeks later, I see online that the White House photography. had taken a beautiful picture of Joe Biden, the vice president, taking the picture of me with

President Obama. It's fantastic. So it's the most insane picture ever. It was very meta. And it actually happened. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll have to share that with everyone. So as I mentioned before, Tiffany, my wife, helped with a little bit of the kind of the research rights side of things. Because you quote a lot of German text and books that you had to get clearances for. So she has a background in journalism and offered to help do some of that grunt work. And at the time, I think there was a little bit of delay getting approvals and things like that. And it was all very stressful. And she wrote a note, she just dug up and handed to me earlier this week, that I don't think she had read in a while.

And it was sort of like, sometimes wives have these thoughts and they'll just write it down or sometimes they'll share them with you. Sometimes they won't. And so she wrote this down, and I thought it was really interesting. This is in 2009. This is like, yeah, this is like however many years ago that is. Yeah. About math.

But a long time ago, and I thought it was very sort of profound and prophetic. She wrote, you know, there's something very frustrating about the, sorry, I can't read that one in church. The word. Sorry, one second. She basically saying something that's very frustrating with this process during this time. And then she kind of got, you know, retrospective. Philosophical. Yeah, she wrote, what if people really read this book?

What is. if Christians heard the true gospel and true theology and decided to allow it to change their lives? What if non-Christians read it and saw for the first time, Grace preached from the pages of a book about a modern day matter? What if it made them rethink everything they had settled on believing? Wouldn't that all be worth the extra work? Wouldn't it be worth it? Pretty cool. That's amazing.

And I have to say, you know, over the years, many, many people have come up to me and said that the book changed their lives. And I know that it's not my book that changed their lives, that it's the life of Bonhoeffer that changed their lives. But I've heard it over and over and over and over the years now. How many years has been 14 years that people have come up to me and say. said that your book changed my life. And I think to myself, what a privilege, what a holy, holy privilege that God would give you the ability to write a book that could change people's lives. And I think that, again, it's Bonhofer's life that changes our lives. I mean, when you read the life of a saint, when you read something about, you know, somebody who's really beautiful,

it's so moving, it cannot help but affect you. And that's one of the reasons. that I wrote my book, Seven Men and Seven Women, because I thought, when you hear about the life of somebody who's lived an extraordinary life, it really does affect you. It can't help but affect you. But I've heard that over and over and over again, and I have to say, you know, with the movie coming out, I hope more people will read the book. And because it makes you want to live right. It makes you want to be courageous. It makes you want not to miss the opportunity to be a Bonhofer in your time, whatever that means, because it means different things. for different people. Yeah, talk about the timing of this of this film and and I guess you know, it's, it's interesting that the film is coming out now and it's interesting that the book, it's sort of like God has his own timing and I know, you know, for people like us that are trying to, you know, do what they can. It's, it can be challenging. So, uh, they give us a sign. We're going to a break. We'll be right back. Okay, so if it's okay with you, we'll do a seven, and that's the end of part one. And if it's okay with you, because there's a lot of, like, moral issues that were brought up last night. Yeah, yeah, we'll get about that. Okay. So this is the seven, 7.30.

A large retail store just canceled a huge order leaving MyPillow with a ton of extra MyPillows. But you know what? That's their loss and your gain. For the first time ever, you can get a standard classic MyPillow for wholesale prices, only 1488, but it gets better for a limited time. They're offering their entire classic collection at wholesale prices. Get queen-sized MyPillows for just 1888. Upgrade to a king for only a dollar more.

Get the body pillows for 2988 and multi-use MyPillows for only 98. Go to MyPillow.com. Use promo code Eric or call 800-9783057 to take advantage of wholesale pricing for the first time ever. On top of that, receive free shipping on orders over $75. They have never been offered this low before. There are limited quantities at this price, so the limit is 10, and once they're gone, they're gone. Go to MyPillow.com or call 800-978-3057. Use promo code Eric to get the standard My Pillar for only 1488, the lowest price ever.

From the creators of Jesus Revolution comes a new film that's bound to touch your heart, White Bird, a wonder story. Discover the moving tale of Julian as he encounters his grandmother's incredible journey to escape Nazi-occupied France during World War II. Based on the beloved book by the best-selling author of wonder, this inspiring film demonstrates how one simple act of kindness can create ripples that last a lifetime. Directed by the visionary behind Finding Neverland

and featuring stellar performances by Julian Anderson and Academy Award winner Helen Mirren, Whitebird promises to be a cinematic experience you won't forget. Catch it in theaters now. For tickets and more details, visit whitebird.movie. That's whitebird.com. So, Chris, you were just talking about the film. Yeah, the timing of the film and the message of Bonhoeff's life.

And it's really interesting, I think, you know, if someone had asked you after you wrote the book, you know, 2011, 2012, it'd be really great if someone made a film about the book. Yeah. Oh, I don't know, a couple of years. Yeah. And here we are in 2024. Yeah. Well, the Camp Porras is when they started. It was like 2011.

That's right. I know it's been a labor of love in a long time. 12, 13 years for them to make the film. Well, I mean, I think it really is an issue of God's timing. I think that when I wrote the book, and people have to believe me, I mean, I had no sense of what I was getting into when I thought I'm going to tell the story Bonhofer. I didn't know enough to know what I'm getting into. And in the course of telling his story and ferreting out the facts and really seeing who he really was, was and what he really thought, whatever.

I noticed some stuff, I thought, this is different than the Bonhofer that's been portrayed in some of these other books. A lot of the academics kind of spun him as a kind of left-leaning agnostic. They were very big about the idea that he's a pacifist, which is not really even true. I mean, the definition of pacifism in the 30s is pretty different than our own day. But the point is that as I was writing the book, I got a sense like, this is a little different than what I expected. And his faith was much more profound than I had thought.

I thought at the end of his life he kind of went wobbly or became, I mean, Christopher Hitchens, my gosh. He was interviewed on Charlie Rose. And Charlie Rose was asking Christopher Hitchens, the famous atheist, about faith. And he goes, well, what about Bonhofer? You know, he was a Christian. And Christopher Hitchens says, he goes, no, no, no, no, he was a humanist. You know. And I thought, what a load of belief.

He was not a humanist. He was a profound Christian, but that idea was out there that Bonhofer at the end of his life kind of slid over into kind of this ethical humanism. And so in the course of writing my book, I realized, wow, they kind of got this wrong. They got this completely wrong. And you don't need to be a theological genius to see that. But I, you know, so anyway, so the book ended up being kind of different than what I thought. But while I was writing the book and writing about, Germany during this period and how the evil of the Nazis rose, I had this chilling feeling while I was writing the book, this is happening in America. I don't know how far away it is, but it's happening. Somehow, I wonder whether it will happen in my lifetime. I could sort of smell that what was going on there is happening here. And exactly as the Germans failed to see it, we in America are failing to see it. So very recently, my two most recent books, deal with this issue. The first is letter to the American church and the sequel is religionless Christianity, which is a Bonhofer phrase, which I can explain later. But

there is no doubt in my mind that writing about the story of Bonhoeffer and what happened to Germany and the failure of the church to understand that it was their job to stand and speak against the evil, as Bonhoeffer was trying to get them to do, that that informed my ability to see what is happening now. And so now I find myself going around the country, and in these two books I mentioned, letter to the American church and religious and Christianity, trying to make people understand that exactly what Bonhofer was saying, exactly what he was facing, we are facing now. The inability of... of Christians to discern the evil and to discern that it's God's will, that they stand strongly,

courageously against the evil. And I feel like that's happening right now. So the timing is bizarre to me that the film is coming out now, right when all this is happening, right when October 7th happened a year ago, that it's, it does, I mean, it always seems like a cliche when people say, oh, it's God's timing. It's God's timing. There's this idea, I think, you know, we've had people on our show like Jonathan Kahn, who's a messianic Jew, and he talks about these old, you know, gods, lowercase G, that are kind of, you know, ancient and they're evil,

and they sort of will go away and be dormant and then sort of prop their heads up again. And it's almost like none of this is new. And the evil doesn't, even though it can be defeated at times, you can never kill it entirely. It just goes somewhere else and sort of puts on a different mask. Pops up 100 years is nothing for these things, whatever this, this, you know, whatever you call it. Thrones, dominions, principalities. It's just, and it seems like it's just coming back for another act. It's interesting.

Well, yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about it that. And it's very, it's very, well, let me put it this way. I think that it's God's will that we discern these things. it wasn't his will that the German church not discern these things. It wasn't God's will. But God does allow us to ignore him if we insist on it. It's kind of like I think C.S. Lewis says that, you know, God wants us to say to him, thy will be done.

But if we don't, eventually, eventually God says to us, okay, thy will be done. Have it your way. And so that's what happened in Germany that Bonhofer tried and tried to get the church to stand against the evil of the Nazis. And they simply refuse to acknowledge that it could get as bad as it got. They just thought, that can't happen in Germany. No, no, no. The pendulum swings both ways.

We'll be fine. We'll be fine. And they missed the opportunity to do something about it. And so I really do believe he called me to write the Bonhofer book and led me to write a letter to the American Church and religiousness Christianity to sound the alarm to the American church today. That exactly what the German church missed, you're missing. And there are churches all over this country that they think everything's fine.

They don't think it's their business to talk about politics or whatever. They don't want to go there. And I think that that's fundamentally wrong. It's unbiblical, just as it would be unbiblical to say, well, we're not going to take a position on slavery. That's political. We're just going to preach the gospel. What gospel are you preaching? What God are you worshipping that you could be silent on slavery? what God are you worshipping that you could be silent on the Nazis wanting to demonize and murder millions of Jews? I mean, what kind of God are you worshipping? And so I really feel like we are going through the exact same thing right now. And in retrospect, I believe firmly that God called me to write the Bonhofer book for where we are now, for where we are right now.

I know we're out of time we're going to do a part two. So this ends part one of the Bonhofer conversation. Chris, thank you for using chat GPT. Yeah, you're welcome. Well. To give us. Yeah. All right.

So that ends, that ends part one. Hey there, folks. In hour one, just now, I hope you heard Chris's conversation with me about Bonhofer, the Bonhofer book. We're going to play the second part of that. that tomorrow in hour one. Everybody, everywhere I go, people are talking about Bonhofer. It's very exciting.

Obviously, the film is coming out November 22nd. And you have sworn Boy Scout Oath, Girl Scout Oath, that you will see it on the opening weekend, November 22nd. Very, very important. Chris, you and I actually tonight, what we are now in Phoenix, Arizona, and tonight there's going to be a screening of the film here in Phoenix, Arizona.

It's a private sneak peek screening. Obviously, the film doesn't officially come out, but certain people are getting to see a sneak peek. So I'll be there tonight. I'll be speaking about Bonhofer tonight. But I got to tell you, I'm traveling like a maniac. I've been saying this.

If you go to my website, you can see where I am. And it's, you will pray for me if you read my schedule. It's Ericmataxis.com, and you can see where I am. But yesterday, Chris, you and I were treated to a tour. Yeah, we were like VIPs. Honestly, I thought I was back on the Hollywood film. Well, wait, wait, wait, people don't know what we're talking about.

Grand Canyon University. Yeah. We were toured yesterday. So we're here in Phoenix. And we visited Grand Canyon University, which is here in Phoenix. And the president, Brian Mueller, gave us a tour of the campus. a golf cart because it's the biggest campus I cannot get over it. But it is a deeply Christian university here in Phoenix.

And I think it is now like the largest Christian university in the world, correct? Yeah, yeah, I think it is. And they have plans to make it even twice the size it is now. Oh, no, definitely, definitely. But I was so impressed because people often ask me, well, where can I send my kid or what's good out there or whatever? And, you know, I go, well, there's a hill. Hillsdale, there's Liberty, you know, there's Colorado Christian. There aren't a lot.

Do you say Hillsdale? I did. Well, look, the heck with Hillsdale. They take 400 students a year. Like, they're the greatest thing. I just wish they would scale it up to take 4,000 or something. But, of course, like Hillsdale is phenomenal. Liberty is phenomenal.

They take a ton. But, you know, people want to know. what are my options? Where could I send my kid that's actually good? You know, there's regent in Virginia Beach. You know, Pat Robertson started that many years ago. They're awesome. I mentioned Colorado Christian. You know, so there's just a tiny handful. But yesterday, you and I got the tour and the lowdown and the download on Grand Canyon University, which is here in Phoenix. And I was so impressed. They said, I want to go on the air tomorrow and tell my audience about it because it was just

it was remarkable. I think that an understatement. It was remarkable. And there was something, there's something miraculous about it. And you have to visit in person to really see it. and touch it or whatever. But yeah, it's just kind of like, in a way, it reminded me of Israel springing up

in the middle of the desert, right? They have some of it. It's like this college has sprung up in the middle of the desert. It's remarkable. And it's not even, and the other thing is it's, it's in a town that historically has had very difficult problems with crime and all sorts of things. It's not like they popped it in this sort of little suburb cloister,

you know, kind of white bread. It's part of a part of the city. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, Everything, you know, anyway, look, I want to have the president, Brian Mueller on this program. We'll get him on. But I just said, I just want to talk about it. I just want to tell my audience if you need a place. Like, if you want to send your kid there, like email the president's office.

Tell him Eric Mataxis sent you because it was just phenomenal. Okay, we'll be back with our two. Don't go away.