The Eric Metaxas Show - Chase Replogle

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Chase Replogle has a new book that focuses on one of the key issues of our day, the distinction between men and women, in "The 5 Masculine Instincts: A Guide to Becoming a Better Man."

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m. Investments.com. That's legacy pm. Investments.com. The Texas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Folks, I'm talking to Andrew Claven. He has a brand new book out. Highly recommended the truth and beauty. How the lives and works of England's greatest poets point the way to a deeper understanding of the words of Jesus. Where in the world did you get this idea? It's almost funny. It's totally counterintuitive.

It could be like how the paintings of the 15th century. I mean, you obviously, Andrew, were a student of these poets for a while. So let me ask you that. How did you find your way into caring about their literature? Because obviously, their literature, helped you understand the words of Jesus, which can be perplexing if we're honest. But how did you find your way to these poets to begin with?

Well, I'd always loved them. Mostly it was Keats. I found first his life was so romantic, so dramatic, so tragic, that it had a lot of appeal to a young man who was himself troubled, namely me. And so when I found him as a young man, I just thought, this guy is a really dramatic character, his striving to be a great writer, which I wanted to be, his desperation, his problem.

He never succeeded in his life. He died thinking himself a failure, which is one of the parts of the book that I could barely write without, like, you know, breaking down because it was so painful to watch this young man pass away, thinking I failed at everything, when in fact he had succeeded at every single thing he was trying to do. So that's what really brought me in. And then I read all the poets because they're such great poets. And they're each one of them sort of speaks into the other. And the key thing that happened to inspire this book is my son at some point said to me when I was trying to understand the words of Jesus, he said, you know, your problem is you're trying to understand a philosophy instead of trying to get to know a man. And I thought that

was really brilliant because when you know somebody, you don't necessarily say, ah, Eric, you know, he's the kind of guy who has this philosophy. What you say is, oh, if Eric were here, he would say this. you start to know, what a guy would think and what he was, what he's seen. Actually, now you bring up a point that's very big for me. And I didn't realize this when I started writing these biographies, like it wasn't my plan. But in retrospect, you realize that inevitably, God is a person and he speaks through persons. There's something about, it's almost like the fundamental building blocks of the universe, or not atoms, they're people. And how perfect.

that he would become a person, Jesus, and that it is the person of Jesus, not his philosophy, but the person somehow that says everything, that speaks beyond philosophical bromides and thoughts. So it's interesting that that's kind of the through line for you in this book. And biography is exactly to the point, because the experiment that I pulled as I reread the Gospels,

I actually taught myself Greek to do it, so I could read it in the original, which I didn't do it very well, but I did it. And I forgot all the theology. I pushed it out of my mind. Even the theology of Paul, whatever it was, I just thought, I just want to get to know this guy. So it was very much like reading a great biography where you start to know, you start to see through the eyes of the guy who is, the story is about, or even reading a novel where you start to get to know the character. And so that was my experiment.

It was not to say, it's not a book of theology. It is not a book of theology. And a couple of people I sent it who got angry at me because it says things that weren't in their theology. And I said, no, you can still believe what you want to believe. This is my experience of meeting this man and coming back to tell it. And as I did, it was the words of these poets that kept coming into my mind. And that's where the idea of the book came from. I thought, oh, these poets are explaining this man to me.

And so maybe that would work for other people as well, even if they've never heard of these poets before. Well, and it is amazing that at the end of the book, you do get into this, And you talk about things that Jesus said that are counterintuitive, putting it mildly. They're kind of like infuriating, provocative counterintuitive. Like, what? You know, they're like bombs being thrown into our world. So like to reorder everything. And I love what you talk about when you talk about how he, you know, he tells us to love the man who was set upon by robbers, right?

At the end of the story of the Good Samaritan. and how it's not about because we treat someone right, that will lead them on the right path or whatever. It really is just about unconditional love, that Jesus is modeling for us, this idea of loving the unlovable and giving the results to God. So it's just about doing what God does and trusting God with the results, not about doing something to get something or to kind of force somebody to change in a way. I mean, I just thought that was kind of a major point. It's a huge point because I think one of the ways the church has lost its way is by trying to be relevant for trying to make the world a better place. And if there's one thing Jesus never said is that the world was going to become a better place, he said the opposite of that. You know, he said, give your money to the poor, but the poor you're going to have with you, follow me, but the world is going to hate you.

And in the case of the Good Samaritan, you know, when you talk about that love that he is calling on you for, as you say, it's not to make the world better. It's not to change the man who is mugged. may remain a bad guy. He may be a bad guy and stay that way. It's so you can see what God sees because God is love and God loves us so much that when we love like God does, we see what he sees and the joy that is in Jesus is in us. And I think that that is what he's trying to give us. He's trying to give us a wave of seeing. And so when you do these things, you know, whenever I hear people talk, I never hear them say, why? Why are we supposed to do this? Why should I love my enemies? Why should I? You know, why should I walk in love?

Why should I give money to the poor at all? It's certainly not so I can walk around thinking, what a charitable guy I am. I know I'm not that nice guy. We all know that about ourselves, you know. But when you do these things, when you let go of the things that matter to you and you start to pour love into people, you start to see them as God sees them, and they become beautiful.

And life becomes beautiful, and your life becomes beautiful. It is quite an amazing experience. You can practice it, you know, you can work at it. You can get better at it. it is really something that I think Christians should be thinking about more is how, what do I see when I walk down the street? Because you are creating, even when you walk down the street, you're creating an experience that has never been created before and will never be created again and is part of God's creation, a continuation of God's creation. That's a pretty exciting

thing to be doing while you're walking down the street. So you might want to pay attention to it. And that's what I hope this book gives you a little bit of a way to start to do that. Well, this is deep stuff, and the book is not going to be for everybody, which is part of the reason I want to have you back just to continue talking about this, because there is so much here, and it's beautiful. But some of it is deep. When you get into talking about how there's the object and then the word for the object and then the meaning, I thought, whoa, that's heavy, and it's Trinitarian. And you're getting to the, you're getting to the, what? did you say is metaphors all the way down or something like that. Yeah, it's a fractal. Yeah, everything, every single thing is a metaphor, yeah.

I mean, it's, it's heavy stuff, but because you're talking, Andrew, about the nature of reality. You're talking about the very nature of reality. You're not talking about the nature of physical reality. You're talking about the nature of reality itself as God has created it. So it's beautiful. It's deep. It really is extraordinary. What you just talked about walking down the sidewalk, you know, and how. the romantics began to figure this out, these poets, that we are collaborating with reality and creating a new thing, our lives. I mean, it is, it is heavy stuff. It is, it's beautiful and deep. But it, but it is for everybody. Yes. As the Gospels tell us, I mean, I've known people who do it without thinking, most of the moms, most of the mothers, there's a lot in the

book about motherhood, and most of the people I've known who do it without thinking have been mothers with small children and they just invest their lives into that and suddenly they become joyful and they you know they don't really know what it is but it is this kind of love that is connecting them to the creation of the world that they're they're getting to do I think men have a harder another step they have to take and I think we envy sometimes I know I envy mothers sometimes like complete involvement in life but it can be done and Jesus was here to help us do it because when we do it we connect to him and we become what he call the branch of the vine you know you become a creative person, which you can't be on your own.

On your own, you're simply going to do what I did for many of the years of my life. You're going to create your own kind of craziness over and over again in the world. We see this in Hollywood. We see all these very talented people turning out garbage because they haven't, they're not connected to the source. All right. Look, we've got to have you back ASAP. Folks, the book, brand new book, The Truth and Beauty, Andrew Claven. Thank you so much.

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Let Bambi run your HR. Go to Bambi.com slash metaxus right now for your free H-R audit. B-A-M-B-E-E-com slash Metaxus. Hey, folks, if ever there was a subject, we needed to discuss, I think this is it. What do I mean? Well, I have in my hands a brand new book, The Five Masculine Instincts by a pastor who is in Springfield, Missouri. and the subtitle is A Guide to Becoming a Better Man. Chase Replogel, I think that's I pronounced.

Did I nail it? That was my first question. Chase is how do I pronounce your last name, Rapogel? Yeah, you got it. Replogel, Replogel. It's closing anything with an R. I'm not offended, so you got it. Well, welcome to the program.

Congratulations on the book. Yeah, thank you very much. And I'm an agreement with you, an important topic, and just grateful for a chance to talk about it. Well, it's important, why is it important? It's important because it's at the heart of everything. I mean, especially if you're a person of faith in the God of the Bible, you realize that because God created us in his image,

it's not kind of an unimportant issue. It's like it's at the heart of everything. So for people just tuning in, what's at the center of this idea? In other words, why would you title the book, of I've masculine instincts. Let's start there. Yeah, well, first and foremost, I'm a pastor. So, you know, I'm a man myself. I have a brother, a father, a son, and then a whole lot of men in my congregation.

And I've seen over the last few years how so many men are really struggling, struggling to understand, well, the word, just putting the word masculinity on the cover of a book, automatically makes it controversial, kind of regardless of what's inside the book. And so I've seen a lot of men struggling with this conversation. I've seen a lot of men dropping out of the conversation because of the controversy around it. And so often in the church, the conversation we have with men and then also within culture has to do with the externals. In the church, we warn men about certain masculine sins, which I think is an important conversation. More broadly in culture, the conversation is, should your masculine instincts be indulged?

Are they salvific or are they toxic and they need to be rebuilt? And the thing we've really lost that I think previous generation of men had was just a path by which we grew in character. How do we just grow in virtue? How do we become better men? And how do we take the instincts we have and mature them into something that can be more useful in families, in churches, and communities? And unfortunately, because of the controversy, often that's the conversation no one's having with men today. And I think a good place to start, at least I think so, is, you know, when you're talking about what it is to be a man, the Bible is super clear. And by the way, you don't need to be any kind of a Christian.

Common sense has, you know, told us since the beginning of time, people know what a man is. When a man behaves in a way that's bad and when, you know, this is not like a new conversation, but suddenly it's become controversial, which is ridiculous. And I think the first place you have to start is you have to say, I'm not going to play the game that this is controversial. There's nothing controversial. Jesus was a man. He wasn't maybe a man, a combination of a man and a woman. He was a man.

He called his father in heaven, Abba father. He didn't say, you know, eternal parent. He said, father. And Jesus was a perfect human being, and yet he turned over the tables in the temple. He did some things that look like violence, that look startling. Wow, who is this guy? Where is he getting this energy from? What is happening here?

How could he behave this way? He was perfect. So you kind of need to start. with that. You can't kind of reinvent manhood without dealing with the fact that the perfect man did those things. Yeah, I actually think a lot of what men are experiencing right now is I use the word malaise in the first chapter, the sense of uneasiness, something's not right, we're not quite sure how to fix it. There's a time where really everything was about the controversy around masculinity, but now what seems to be happening is because of the controversy, a lot of men are just

disengaging from the conversation. They're basically saying, if there's not a place for me in culture, if culture thinks I'm somehow toxic or unhelpful, then you know what? I'll just retreat back into my home and my own world and my own fantasies, my own indulgences. There's a great line in a Walker Percy novel where he says, the only thing that we feared more than the bomb falling was that the bomb wouldn't fall. And what else is there to do now but fall prey to desire? Right. The sense of meaninglessness, there's nothing I can really rise to the occasion to. Then men slip back into just desire and into their own world and begin to disengage. And if you look at all the stats, whether it's men dropping out of the workplace, education, men dropping out of families,

the fatherlessness epidemic that really many ways is at the root cause of so many of our social ills, men participating in churchless. The real challenge we're facing right now is not overly aggressive men that are toxic in society. The real challenge we're facing is men disengaging and dropping out of participation in society. Well, so how do we fix that? What we do? Well, I think we have to, you know, it's an interesting moment we find ourselves in right now. You see, because of the situation in Ukraine, all of a sudden there's this real clarity around men rising to the occasion bearing responsibility for a significant challenge. C.S. Lewis, in one of his screw tape letters, writes about the temptation that we can, we can draw men to vice,

but the problem with tempting men with vice is eventually that vice leads to conflict and war and things like conflict and war have a tendency to clarify morality, to make things very crystal clear, what is good, what is right, how men can serve well. And so I think we find ourselves in a moment where men are starting to recognize when we do not participate in families, in communities, it's not just us who suffer. There are consequences, real consequences to men dropping out. And so I think we have to offer what previous generations of men had. And that was a path back, to re-engaging. And that's not primarily just an external work. That's the internal work of saying, how do I grow in character? How do I grow in virtue and become the kind of man that can rise to the

occasion of the moment? And I think most men, what they're missing is that path. I think most men have an ideal. They have a sense of who they wish they could be. They also have an appetite, a stomach that sometimes is hard to rule over. And what we've robbed them of is what CS Lewis called the chest, right? that discipline into knowing how to become the kind of man of character that can bear responsibility well. Nobody's having that conversation with men today. I was just reading a wonderful book. We'll have her on this program. Christiana Hale has written a book called Deep Heaven about C.S. Lewis's so-called Space Trilogy.

And she reminds the reader about this idea where Lewis talks about, I guess it was a medieval idea, that, you know, there's the viscera, the stomach, and then there's the brain, and in between is the chest. So he writes his famous essay, Men Without Chests. And it really is interesting because it is at the center, at the heart, no pun intended, of where we are in the culture right now. Men are supposed to be manly. Men are supposed to be lion-hearted. They're supposed to be protectors, warriors. There's something that God has given us to do, which is.

unique to us. And we live in a culture that doesn't understand the language. It doesn't understand what does that mean to be lionhearted. What does it mean to be a warrior in a good way? We can't even imagine what that would be. Chivalry and all of those ideas of the man as the protector, the one who fights to defend his home and his family. Those were noble ideas that really have existed since time immemorial. And it's only now amidst the madness of of the current culture, that suddenly these things are up in the air. When, of course, they're not up in the air. They're still exactly what they were.

But people are questioning them in a hostile way. Yeah, that's C.S. Lois's line from the abolition of man. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We act like maleness is nothing. The responsibilities of manhood mean nothing. And yet then we find ourselves in sort of meaningful moments of moral clarity and realize men rising to those responsibilities actually matters a lot. But we live in this sort of age where, as Lewis, I think, wisely understood, we tear down right and wrong, we tear down the

value, the God-given responsibility of gender that we've been given. And yet, then we find things not working and struggle to reconcile those two. So what are the five masks? I mean, the title of the five masculine instincts, a guy to becoming a better man. What are these five instincts you refer to? Yeah. So I was looking as a pastor for ways to have conversations with men about what it is that motivates them. Paul, when he writes to the young man, Timothy gives him a little piece of advice. Timothy's serving in a tough place in Ephesus, and he says, you'll make progress, you'll show the progress you make. This is moral language. By keeping a close watch on yourself and on the teaching, what you have through the gospel.

So those two works struck me as important to bring together. You can't just have gospel information. You can't just get lost in sort of self-indulgence. You've got to know what's motivating you and apply the things you have through Christ. So like I said previously, we tend to talk with men about sin behavior. Well, I'm interested as a pastor in what are those instincts or motivations beneath sin that are often driving men to those actions? Because sometimes those can be good things that go out of balance and suddenly lead to disobedience and destruction.

I came across Shakespeare's famous play, the opening of the monologue, all the world's a stage. And each of us, men and women, we have our parts, our entrance, our exits. And he goes on to describe these stages in a man's life. The first and last are birth and death. But in the middle are these five stages, these images that Shakespeare presents. Again, a kind of psychological writer trying to capture human nature. And these stages that a man finds himself in are the narratives. I use the word instincts.

They're the impulses that lead a man to act and live the way that he did. And it was pretty quick. I started to see in each of those Shakespearean images a character from the Bible. Hang on a second, Chase, just so we're going to go to break. When we come back, I want to go right to where you are. This is really exciting folks. The book is The Five Masculine Instincts. Chase Replogel is my guest.

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Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to the author of The Five Masculine Instinct, a Guide to Becoming a Better Man. So, Chase, you were referring to this. I can't remember which Shakespeare play it is, where, the prologue where he says all the world is a stage. Yes, as you like it. As you like it. Okay. And so, yeah, I remember that he does refer to the different stages of man. And so are you saying that in the book, you take the five stages between, you know, baby and very old? I mean, how do you break that up? Yeah, so the first one is the reluctant schoolboy who's dragging himself to school. I pair it with the story of Kane.

talk about sarcasm as an instinct. The second is the sort of romantic, woeful lover. So it's not just romance and women. It's also romance and just quests and adventure. So I talk about the instinct of adventure with the biblical character of Samson. The second one is the warrior who's filled with oaths, ready to write wrongs, quick to quarrel. I think of it as ambition, somebody trying to do something meaningful in the world. And I use Moses' story to look at that instinct of ambition. The fourth one, it's one of my favorite of Shakespeare's descriptions. He begins to cut his beard and dress the way that's expected and he starts to put a little extra weight on as Shakespeare describes it. This is somebody who's had enough success that they start to worry about their image, the reputation,

preserving it. So this instinct of reputation, I use David's story. And then the fifth, Shakespeare describes the man beginning to lose his voice. It's symbolic of his engagement with the world. There's a great line where Shakespeare says, but the world has become too wide. As men, we began to realize the complexity of relationships in the world and how little control we have. And I use Abraham's story to talk about this instinct of apathy that tends to set in. Those often happen across those ages in that order. But I think for a lot of men, they can kind of move in and out of these instincts, even at different points in their life as well.

I've really only recently begun rereading Shakespeare. The way into that is, you know, if you go on Apple TV or something like that, Lawrence Olivier starring in Hamlet or in Henry V, there's great stuff, and it kind of sucks you in. And then I thought, you know what, I need to read this. And when you read it, you can't help but be astonished or reminded of Shakespeare's extraordinary understanding of what it is to be human. And what you just said really is typical. But it's just so wonderful to me that you pluck that out of as you like it. And then find. five biblical models that suit these. So, I mean, let's just go through them. You said the first one

is the reluctant schoolboy. Hard to believe that in 1600, you have a similar kind of thing. But I guess 422 years ago, the reluctant schoolboy was a thing, just as is a thing right now. So start with that. Who did you pick as the model? Yeah, I use Kane's story, and I use the word sarcasm to sort of put a word to Shakespeare's image, which is a little bit surprising for people. It's important to say these instincts aren't sins. They can be good things, certainly ambition and reputation are, but if overindulged, they tend to be things that lead men to destruction. Sarcasm can be a funny joke. There's nothing wrong with a moment of sarcasm, certainly. But there is a kind of sarcasm that can be a cover for contempt that can keep us thinking we're clever and joking when really we're just masking something

worse. The big story of Kane's life, every commentator and preacher has to deal with is why does God reject his sacrifice and not Abel's? And what struck me about that passage is God comes down and initiates a conversation with Kane. Kane has an opportunity to ask that very question. God says to him, why is your face downcast? Don't you know sin is at the door ready to rule over you if you don't rule over it? Well, what does Kane do? He rejects that divine lesson, murders his brother. God comes and says, where's your brother Abel? And he says, the sarcasm, am I my brother's keeper? There's a kind of instinct in men, often in young men, that can feel like any challenge, any lesson is judgment, and can rebel against it with a kind of unwillingness to take anything seriously, to laugh everything

off, when really at its root, what it is is not a joke, but a kind of contempt for authority. And that certainly is there in Kane, I think. Wow, that's a beautiful concept. And obviously so true. The next one, I don't remember who the next one was. Yeah, Samson and Adventure. Samson, okay. Yeah, talk about that. Well, there is a cultural narrative right now that is pretty pervasive. I see it in all the kids' movies, my kids watch, that to know who you are, your true identity,

you need to leave home and place and tradition, your commitments, and you need to find yourself in this adventurous quest, and somehow through that process of leaving and discovering who you are, you'll become actualized and wise and cultured. Well, Samson grows up at a time where Israel is not an advanced civilization. They're sort of scraping out of living in the hills. There's no army. There's no centralized government. They're being raided by the Philistines. You might remember Samson isn't doesn't take the Nazarite vow for himself. It's given to his mother. He's sort of born into this odd family custom. Well, he finds himself infatuated with all things Philistine and constantly going down to these great Philistine cities.

And as you watch Samson's story, this pattern plays out over and over where God, pours this miraculous strength into his life. It saves him in one of these adventurous moments. And then he turns it into a drunken pun, a riddle at a party, or he boasts about his own strength. He actually becomes duller and less discerning the more of those adventures that play out. And of course, in the end, trusts his secret to Delilah, this great moment of lack of discernment and understanding what God is doing. So it's that adventurous spirit in him that doesn't leave him enlightened, but actually keeps him from recognizing the thing God is trying. to do in his story. I try to say to men, particularly in their 30s with a mortgage payment and two kids and a cubicle job they may not love. Maybe that's what all adventures feel like in the

middle. They feel boring or dull or unfulfilling, and it's only because you haven't reached the end, like Samson's story, to really know what God is doing. That is wisdom right, right there. That needs to be said to all those folks out there thinking, hey, what am I doing? The book is The Five Masculine Instincts, A Guide to Becoming a Better Man, will be right back. Hey, folks, if you listen to this program, of course, you've heard me talk at infinitum about my pillow and my friend Mike Lindell. Well, Mike has just announced that you will receive one of his books and the book is next level insane. It is called What Are the Odds from Crack Addict to CEO? It's his story.

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Folks, welcome back. As we've been saying in Shakespeare's play as you like it, in the beginning, he talks about the stages of manhood. And the author of this book, The Five Masculine Instincts, Chase Rapogel, is talking about them, how each one of these five stages has an analog in scripture. So we mentioned the reluctant schoolboy. We've mentioned the Samson figure, the Advocate. venture or whatever. I guess the next one was Moses. Is that, am I remembering that? Yeah, yeah. You will find this one meaningful because I actually use Bonhofer quite a bit in this chapter. Moses has a kind of ambition that shows up in his life. It's the reason he strikes down the Egyptian. Axe tells us he thought that people would rally behind him. They don't, of course, and he flees into the wilderness. God shows up some 40 years later and calls him back to that

very task, and all of a sudden you get this reluctance in Moses. Some people say, how can this be the same one, who's quick and impulsive to action and now slow and reluctant to speak. But I think that's really the experience of ambition. There's nothing like ambition, a vision we have for our life and future, that one minute leaves us feeling empowered and capable and the next disillusioned and discouraged. Moses wrestles with that throughout his story. And of course, that great moment where he strikes the rock instead of speaking to it, he says more than just the disobedience. He says to the people of Israel, you rebels must we provide water from this rock. This ambition has gotten so out of proportion in Moses' life that he starts to measure by that vision the people, God himself, and him.

And of course, I use that great Bonhofer line from life together, that God hates a visionary dreamer because the consequences of this sort of unchecked ambition is we begin to judge others, we begin to judge God, and ultimately we judge ourselves, that a good thing like ambition can actually by being over-indulged, lead us into direct disobedience of God. It's really a shocking thing, and certainly the case in Moses's life. Well, this is what's so interesting is that when you know, when you say the five masculine instincts, the title of the book, these are all good. And then the question is, do we follow God's plan as we respond to these instincts that are built into us as men? Or do we, you know, allow ourselves to kind of get out over our skis or whatever metaphor you

you want to use and then get in big trouble. Because they all do start as good things. They can drive us in the right way. But as you're saying in many cases, and especially these examples from scripture, they can drive us in the wrong way. So the next one you talk about is King David. Yeah, reputation. David's story in many ways is a story about the tension between the public image of being

king and the reality, the integrity of him. being a humble shepherd, God's choice. At moments he gets that right, he takes off Saul's armor and faces Goliath as who he is, a shepherd with God on his side. At other moments, he gets it painfully wrong. It was the time of year where the kings went out to war and David is lounging. He commits sin with Bathsheba, but then makes it worse by covering up that sin, murdering Uriah, lying, a whole plot to cover it up. We live in a day where, you know, it's not uncommon for people to spend millions of dollars to cover up their sins. It's not uncommon for them to hire image consultants, PR firms. I like to define integrity, not as I always do what's right, but I'm willing to own.

I'm willing to inventory my life and bear responsibility for everything that's there, the truth of everything in my life. And maybe the thing that David gets so right, because there's certainly so much he gets wrong, is we have everything. We have all of the records of his life. We have his Psalms. I mean, David and his power could have burned the books, you know, put to death anybody who recorded the sort of details. But yet he leaves us both good and bad, the whole reality of who he is. And we understand through that a better kind of integrity that we need, not just a public image, but a kind of owning the truth, the full truth of who we are. That's one of the things that lately I've been realizing about the Bible is that ancient accounts, except for the Bible, they get rid of the negative. stuff. I mean, if you read whatever, ancient Egyptian accounts or any Babylonian accounts,

they don't volunteer their sins, their mistakes, their struggles. They never do that. They basically wipe that from the record. But the Bible shows us real people making huge mistakes because, obviously, the God of the Bible is a God of redemption. And only if we own our mistakes and say, yes, I need to fix this, or I can't fix this, God help me with this. And it really is, if anybody's wondering, you know, I wonder if the Bible could be the Word of God. It is so different from other ancient texts in that respect. Obviously, the New Testament is very similar, where why would they put in their doubt and their fears and their screw-ups and Peter's denying Jesus? They leave it all in because they believe that the truth is the way, and God,

can redeem these things. So it is beautiful. So I just say this because if you're somebody you think I've screwed up or I've done this or that, everybody has screwed up. The only difference is some people will admit it and some people won't. And if you'll be one of those who can face it, trusting that God wants you to face it and he wants to walk with you, it's such a beautiful thing. But if you don't know that, you can see why people would just be like, let's just shove it under the carpet. Yeah, we sometimes turn them into heroes. But really, I say that they're companions. The Hebrew writers write these stories to expose humanity, not to create some cliche that we could live up to. I mean, ultimately, Christ is the one we're trying to become

like, not David or Moses, Abraham. They're there to help us recognize our own humanity and to see our story and their story that they might point us to Christ. I mean, that's the great message of the book of Hebrews, those famous chapter 11 faith, that they lead us to Christ as companions on this road. Yeah, they're all pretty much cautionary tales, right? It's we're supposed to learn what not to do, but also learn that if you do that, God will be there, you know, to catch you and to patch you up. So who is the last figure of the five? Yeah, the final one is Abraham and this instinct of apathy, which is a little surprising. Abraham's the character of faith, right? I mean, he's the one that follows God, leaves home, goes off.

You don't think of him as apathetic character, but a few times where things get complicated. in his life. He tends to withdraw from the complexity. When he's waiting and waiting for a son an heir to be born, his wife, Sarah, comes up with a plan to produce that son through Hagar, their servant. He goes along with it without much discussion, it seems, but maybe even more obvious. Whenever that son, Ishmael, is born to Hagar, it creates tension within their home, no surprise. And Sarah comes to Abraham complaining about it, and he literally says to her, you deal with it. So she begins to mistreat. This sounds weirdly familiar.

Like, guys can be this way. Yeah. And speaking as a guy, it's very interesting. When we come back, we'll hear the rest of this story. We're talking to the author of The Five Masculine Instincts. Folks, welcome back. We're talking to the author of the Five Masculine Instincts, a guide to becoming a better man.

So you have to be a man. Otherwise, you can't be a better man. But if you are a man, who doesn't want to be a better man? I think that this is an important conversation. We were just talking, Chase, Rapogel is the author. We're just talking about these five models that you use using Shakespeare, and each one has an analog in scripture. So the one you're talking about now, really fascinating, Abraham,

who kind of, he steps back. When he should lead, he lets his wife lead or says, I don't care, whatever, which we can do as guys sometimes, but it's not God's first best for us. So what happens in the case of Abraham? Yeah, well, there's this scientific idea of entropy you'll be familiar with. It's one of the laws of thermodynamics. Things don't get simpler. They don't become organized.

They become more complicated. They become more disordered. And the longer we live as men, I think the more we realize that is true. Relationships are complicated and require more things we thought we had control over. we discover we don't. Control seems like an illusion. And Abraham's story has a kind of false ending. It's a kind of retirement picture. He plants a tamaris tree in Bersheba and sets beneath it. He signs peace treaties. Isaac, his son is finally there. We expect that story of the patriarchs to carry on to the next one. But you turn the page and instead you read those famous words from Genesis 22, but God

tested Abraham. That God often brings things into our lives to move us back into faith, to re-engage our faith. I think the most dangerous moment of Abraham's life was not when he was following God through wilderness. It was when he had everything, when faith no longer had to be a lived experience. It could be an abstract idea God exists, but what did he really need faith for anymore? And so God puts him in a position of a test to wake him back up to keep him engaged by faith. And for a lot of us as men, I know it's easy to go back into our recliners and the little control of our hobbies and our own worlds. but there are consequences when we withdraw from relationships and from the responsibilities around us. And sometimes God forces us into a moment of sacrifice to wake us back up to that faith.

Well, that's a beautiful way of putting it. And we don't know how old Isaac was when Abraham, you know, took him to Mount Moriah, ostensibly to sacrifice him. But it is interesting because you think that he's past all that stuff. Like he's now had the child promised that they prayed and believed and believed and waited and waited. Yeah, hasn't he already passed the test by now? And it's like it's over now. The kid's here and like, let's have a good time.

And God says, I need you to do this. And that's, listen, we all need to hear this, right? That God, in his mercy, in his mercy, allows us to experience things that maybe we wouldn't have picked for ourselves. But if we trust him, we know he's doing something. glorious as a result of it. And that's the story with Abraham. Wow. Talk about trusting God. He's not just trusting God to show him a place where he will go. He's trusting God for everything that matters to him. We've just got 30 seconds left. Where can we leave folks with, as we talk about the five masculine instincts? Yeah, well, I hope at the end of the day, the book is a tool for people.

It gives them language to have more meaningful conversations. I think good books do that. They help us talk about things that matter. And I hope at the end of the day, these words, these instincts help you do that with the men in your life, whether that's a son, whether that's a husband, whether that's a brother, if you're a pastor with men in your congregation, that we could just rise to the occasion of the moment and engage the world, bear responsibility better through better character. Well said. The book is called The Five Masculine Instincts, a Guide of Becoming a Better Man. Chase Replogel is the author. Chase, thanks for writing the book, and thanks for being my guest. Yeah, I'm honored. Thanks. It's a great opportunity. I'm really grateful to talk about it, a conversation that matters. You're right.

My pleasure. Amen.