The Eric Metaxas Show - Christiana Hale

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

Christiana Hale, professor at a classical Christian school, presents her fascinating research found in "Deeper Heaven: A Reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy."

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. The Texas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Are you ready? Are you ready? The show has just begun. And if you know anything about C.S. Lewis, my guest today, ladies and gentlemen, I don't want to brag when she's on the program, so I will just say now, this very young woman has written a spectacular book about C.S. Lewis.

Christiana Hale is her name. She will be my guest. I believe in both hours today. In hour two, at the beginning of hour two, we have a segment with Sean Foyt. We spoke to him yesterday. We will speak to him again today just for the first segment of hour two. He had his group on the steps of the Supreme Court yesterday. Yes, very exciting.

I also should mention today, I voted. I did too. Now, never tell people how you vote. No. But I will tell you for whom I voted. Andrew Giuliani, governor. Now, there are many people who, I mean, if you don't vote, ladies and gentlemen, don't complain, or better yet move to a country where they don't let you vote,

because it is such a privilege to vote. So I voted this morning. And when I went into the voting thing, this woman said, do you have a mask, sir? I said, no. Would you like a mask? No, thank you.

I don't need a mask. Yeah. I'm going to like, I could do a back flip. People are, don't get me. Hey, don't get me started. Okay. Yeah, I was in voting at 6.30 this morning.

I walked in and I said, hey, I came to beat the crowd. And they're all sitting there like nobody else was there, you know. And they were surprised because they had to give me the Republican form. It's like, oh, I was shocked. They blew the dust off of it. I said, am I the only Republican? It's so funny.

It's so funny. All right. We should mention this. Today is the 28th. Yesterday was my birthday. Yeah. Today, we have two days left. Nutrametics.com.

They're giving 30% off. only in June. So normally you go to Nutrametics.com, use the code Eric. You get 20% off everything. And half of their profits go to third world missions. What's not to like? But this month only, which has two days left, you can go to Nutrametics.com, use the code Eric June on just a handful of products.

These are the basic immune things that I think everyone really ought to take. Number one, vitamin C, vitamin D. Um, quercetin? Uh, coercetin. Uh, coercetin and magnesium. Yes. And they have a immunity kit. Right.

So those things only, because these to me are, are the basics, are 30% off in the month of June. If you use the code, Eric June at metaxis, sorry, at nutrometics.com. Uh, I want to mention that. Now, there's so much to talk about. First of all, we've got a lot of exciting guests coming up. We have Dinesh D'Suzza coming up. Not today.

Uh, tomorrow or the next day to talk. about kind of an update on 2,000 mules. Now, if you haven't seen 2,000 mules, some of my best friends said, no, no, I haven't seen it yet. That's when I know they're a communist. Yes. And I don't want to know that about you. 2,000 mules. Unless, by the way, if you're communist, you don't need to see it. No. That's your choice. But if you're not a communist, if you don't hate America, I think you want to see 2,000 mules just because you won't believe it. There's stuff in there that you can't, you can't, okay. So now I got to say this also. We've got Dr. Simone Gold coming up. This is a woman who's been persecuted by the deep state.

It is a nightmare and we need to do what we can to help these people. Dr. Simone Gold, she is a hero. And she's going to be on this program this week. And then of course, the hero we have every week, John Smirak will be on. So a lot of exciting stuff. Yeah, Phelam and Anne. And McAleer. And Macalir. And Macalir and. Anne McAneaney and Phila McAleir. Something like that. From old Ireland. Wonderful. Wonderful.

Yeah. They got the Gosnell movie and all that stuff. So a lot of updates and good stuff. Yep. Now, one of the things I wanted to talk about before we leap in, oh, one more item before I read the letter, because we have letters and all kinds of things. I want to say also, by the way, people write to me at our website, Ericmataxis.com. sometimes people write at metaxis talk.com, but my personal website is atratuctortaxist.com.

And I want to say again, I read every letter that comes in. I can still do that. It's not easy, but I do that. And so if you write to me, some of you wrote to wish me happy birthday yesterday. It's like so touching, you have no idea. Folks, God bless you. So people are so kind. Obviously, I'm also on Facebook and on Twitter, and people sent birthday wishes on Facebook. I mean, I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. And even the letters that are critical, I read everyone and I take them to heart. I can't respond on the air to everything. But I appreciate them.

And I take everything everyone writes seriously. And we do make mistakes on this program, particularly Albin. Yeah, I'm here to make mistakes. Yeah, to make you look good. Smart guy. You're hired to do that to make me look good. No, but in all seriousness, obviously, I mean, make mistakes or I misspeak or I or I say things and later on I think well I I should have corrected the

guest and said wait a minute or or something like that somebody wrote in about Francis Chan the other day and I just think I appreciate people giving us grace because I can't clarify everything but we read absolutely everything and I want to thank you for your letters and so on and so forth I should mention ericmataxis.com sign up for the newsletter if you sign up for the newsletter yesterday you saw a video of my dad. If you got the newsletter, Eric McDactx.com, a video of my dad on his 95th birthday singing this beautiful Greek song that I write about in my book. So there's all kinds of stuff with the newsletter. And by the way, if you begin your letter, dear knucklehead, we don't. We don't. That's the only word. No, that's it. That I consider a curse word.

Please. Knucklehead. I just said it. Oh my gosh. Leap that out. Leap that out. All right. Now, so the one thing that I have to say before I read the letter, this letter and before we go to our guest about CS Lewis, is that if you go to SalemNow.com, SalemNow.com, there's a movie out right now. Yes. The movie, if you care about the life issue, there's a movie out called The Matter of Life. Obviously, people are talking about it. Sean Foyt and I will talk about it, but it's called The Matter of Life.

It's a film that we recommend very highly, The Matter of Life. You can also see 2000 mules at SalemNow.com. SalemNow.com, SalemNow.com, SalemNow.com. And I should also add SalemNow.com. I can spell that. Salem now.com. I won't spell it, but it's pronounced salemnow.com. The matter of life is the movie.

And of course, 2000 mules. And if you haven't seen that yet, I'm pretty sure you're a communist. Just saying, I hate to cast aspersions, but I'm pretty sure. Too many. I have not seen it. All right. So now let me read this letter. People, again, people write, and it just blesses my socks off. This person wrote, her name is Kate.

She lives in a red state. She writes, part of me never believed I would see this day. The era of Roe v. Wade is over. And she writes, when my husband and I visited Independence Hall in Philadelphia in October 2016, so this is before Trump was elected, the tour guide mentioned Ben Franklin's, if you can keep its statement. I elbowed my husband and said, that's the title of Eric Metaxus latest book. The election was only a few weeks away.

We both knew it was important. So for a few moments in the birthplace of our republic, we prayed. We prayed for the Lord's will to be accomplished in the election. We prayed for wisdom. My husband wasn't yet a citizen, so I had the sole vote for our family. I agonized over this decision. I wasn't sure Trump was the man for the job. But today, since Roe v. Wade is overturned, I am so thankful I voted for him.

I'm thankful for your op-ed in the Wall Street Journal about the election. I wrote an op-ed that came out in October of 2016, saying should Christians vote for Trump and explaining why I thought that was the right decision. This woman, Kate, writes, I agreed that the Supreme Court appointments and the possibility overturning Roe was worth the risk. I marvel at the courage of justices, Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett, and although abortion is still legal where we live, I'm emboldened to believe God wants to change hearts and lives and end abortion even here

with Roe overturned a terrible wrong has been made right. Thank you for standing for truth. Folks, when you write stuff like this, I remember why I'm doing what I'm doing. I guarantee it hasn't been easy. Albin knows the details, but it is just a deep blessing to hear from folks like you, and to know that I can look myself in the mirror and say, I'm doing what I think God called me to do. All right. Well, when we come back, thank you, Kate, for that beautiful letter and for all these letters. Thank you. When we come back, C.S. Lewis, as the subject. We'll be right back.

In case you haven't been paying attention, the Biden administration has caused a financial crisis, and they have no clue how to fix it. Oil prices have skyrocketed. And when oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation, that's the last thing we need. Our economy is in trouble and you need to take steps to protect yourself. If all your money is tied up in stocks, bonds, and traditional markets, you are vulnerable. Gold is one of the best ways to protect your retirement. No matter what happens, you own your gold. It is real, it is physical, it's always been valuable since the dawn of time.

Legacy precious metals is the company I trust for investing in gold. They can help you roll your retirement account into a gold-backed IRA where you still own the physical. gold. They can also ship gold and precious metal safely and securely to your house. Call Legacy at 866 5281903 or visit them online at LegacyPMinvestments.com. Improve your memory with award-winning Vivalore

memory support. Vivalore's founder prayed God would show her the solution to memory loss when her mom was devastated by dementia. Divine encounters, faith, and her background as a pharmacist led Susan Gibson to create Vivalore memory support. Vivalor is a premium quality supplement with 5 to 20 times more nutrients than any other memory supplements. Vivalore has won numerous awards and a customer

independently wrote three books about it. Visit Vivalore.com for testimonials about the life-changing improvements. Vivalor has helped those with normal memory, mild or severe memory loss, and it can help you. Vivalor has many brain-fortifying nutrients to help focus in memory. Don't wait until your memory slips. Invest in your memory now. Vivalor is V-I-V-O-L-R. Get 30% off with code Eric. Memories are real treasures. Keep yours. Help us pray for miraculous healing. that give God glory. Vivalore.com, V-I-V-O-L-R-D-com, and use code Eric. V-V-V-A-L-L-R-R-K-E-V-A-R-E-V-A-R-E-E-V-A-R-E-L-E-A-L-E-L-E-A-L-L-U-S. And so, let me say, first of all, her name is Christiana-Hale.

she hails, spelled differently, from Idaho. She is in Idaho right now. Just so you understand, while she was writing this book, she also teaches Latin and English to junior high school students. Try to take that in, ladies and gentlemen. At a classical Christian school, I am just thrilled to meet her and to talk to her about her brand new book. It's called Deeper Heaven.

A Reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. Chris Jana Hale, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Thank you so much for having me. Well, listen, we try to get you in the studio and our schedule was all screwed up. But I just want to say, when I read this book, I was just so thrilled because I love C.S. Lewis so much. And the Ransom Trilogy, the Space Trilogy, whatever it's called, many, many people are not familiar with it. and that, of course, needs to change. And books like yours will help to change,

I'm already are helping to, is helping to change that. Your book is helping to change that. So before we get into the book, Deeper Heaven, I just have to ask you about yourself, how does a very young woman like yourself come to write a magnificent volume on C.S. Lewis's Ransom Chology? How did this happen?

Where did you grow up? How did you happen? What's going on? Yeah. Sometimes I ask myself how it happened because it still surprises me at times that this is where life has taken me. But I grew up on C.S. Lewis, primarily The Chronicles of Narnia, as many of us did. So a very young age, I was introduced to Narnia and just fell in love with those books. And it wasn't until I was probably in high school that I realized there's a lot more to C.S. Lewis than just a children's fiction author. In fact, that was very small part of his life and his calling and what he did. So I remember reading or starting to read The Ransom Trilogy at a young age, and I actually, quite frankly, didn't like it.

I didn't get into it, really. I couldn't understand it. But then I attended New St. Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho. And as a freshman rhetoric class, we had to read the Ransom Trilogy. And at that, at that, point with a with a teacher who delve deeper into the especially the medieval cosmology side of things which i think we'll probably talk about later they that just captured my imagination i really really loved that side of it and realized that there was a lot more going on in those books than there's so much going on that that's what makes lewis the more astonishing i mean when when you you you can be um i recently spoke to James Como on this program, about he has a new book about

Peralandra. He's written many C.S. Lewis books over the decades, and his new book is about Paralandra, which is the middle book of this ransom trilogy. And it was just such a joy to talk to him about that and to introduce audiences to that book. But you deal with all three books. And let's first of all start out with the idea that it's called the Ransom Trilogy. A lot of people

call it the Space Trilogy, which is a little weird. But it is, what I say, it's kind of like the Narnia books for adults. In other words, now, don't get me wrong, I read the Narnia books for the first time when I was just a little younger than you. I mean, I think I was 30 when I first read the Narnia books, and I was blown away because like a lot of great literature that we call it kids literature, it's actually not. It's simply a genre that can be read to kids, but it's perfectly appropriate, more than appropriate for adults. There's so much there that kids will never get. You have to grow up to kind of understand the depths of it. But it's like Lewis, you know, he wrote these three books before the

Narnia books. And I often describe them as, you know, the Narnia world for adults. But there's a darkness to them. I mean, they really just are magnificent. So when did you think it was worth writing an entire book of your own, and obviously I have a copy here, it's called Deeper Heaven, about the Ransom Trilogy. When did that idea occur to you? Because it's a very big idea. So the first stage of it really was in my undergraduate studies. I decided to tackle the Ransom Trilogy for my undergraduate thesis. And that was much narrower focus. It was more specific and argumentative, I would say. I had a specific thesis statement that I was looking at. I was looking at primarily the medieval cosmology that Lewis loved and that he implements in the trilogy. And it was much

nearer topic, but it started out writing that thesis. And as I was writing it, for one thing, once you dive in, you start noticing more and more. So I was finding elements that I couldn't work into that paper, but was stowing away for perhaps a later project. But the bigger, the bigger thing that happened throughout that project was as I talked to people about it, specifically people from back home or from family friends or a lot of homeschooling moms or students. And I had so many people just saying, why are you writing about the ransom trilogy? It's so weird. That was the recurring theme was it's so weird. And I don't understand it. And what's the point? What's going on there? And I found myself trying more and more to point

them in certain directions. Like, where is there a good, solid guide or a book that I can just say, here, read this. This will explain why I think it's such an amazing book and give you a good foundation. And there's many good books on the trilogy out there, but there's not anything, there wasn't quite the thing I was looking for, which was a more comprehensive guide through the fundamental themes and that paid a special attention to the medieval aspect. And so when it came time to my graduate studies, I thought to myself, well, if there's not something out there that I want to point people to, I might as well, since I've done all this research, just write it. Write it myself. I'm glad I asked you that question because in a funny way, well, first of all, it reminds me of something that I'd forgotten that in fact there is no such book. You have written the book.

It's called Deeper Heaven, a Reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. And I often think that that's why books get written. It happened to me with my Bonhofer book. I kept thinking there's no Bonhofer book that I would consider definitive that I could say to somebody, oh, you got to read that, read that, read that. They all were somehow missing it or they were focused on something so narrow. And I thought, what a crime. Like, there should be a book that you can just say, just read this and you'll get it.

And it didn't exist. And that's what launched me into writing my Bonhofer. book. And I really think that with Lewis's Ransom Trilogy, you're quite right. That there is not, I mean, often I'll tell people to read the books, but you want to kind of draw them in so that they're understanding what you, what you bring out in the books. And now, again, because you're so young, I realize when I first read Lewis, it was before I got to know Michael Ward, who wrote his book, planet Narnia and that kind of stuff and talked about medieval cosmology. So I wasn't even tapped in to medieval cosmology.

Talk a little bit about the medieval cosmology in the last couple of minutes so people can get a sense because that sounds like a scary concept. What do you mean by medieval cosmology? Yes. So cosmology is just a very, very fancy word, just meaning arrangement, right? So we get the word cosmos from the Greek means to arrange or order. something. So we actually do get the word cosmetology from that, but it's not the same thing. But you're putting things in a certain order. So when we say medieval cosmology, we're just

talking about how medieval man saw the arrangement of the universe of the cosmos, which was different from we had the Copernican Revolution where most people are familiar with that sort of shift from a earth-centric, geocentric arrangement to a solar system, having the sun at the center. But beyond just the arrangement in the medieval conception of the cosmos, there were actual imaginative effects. They had a very peculiar view of more than just, oh, we're just switching the order around, but that that order actually has an effect on the way you look at humanity and the man's place in the cosmos. So it has anthropological effects as well, right? That there's all sorts of

and philosophical and theological effects. So when we say medieval cosmology, you could simply say, well, it's just the arrangement of the cosmos, but it actually has downstream effects on the way they saw the entire world. When we come back, I want to break this down because I still think it sounds scary to most people. And it's not. It's actually fascinating and beautiful and simple. but the 30-second version really is just that the medieval world. C.S. Lewis was a medievalist. We forget that he was an expert on the medieval world and saw things through that lens and arranged a lot of what he wrote with reference to that,

but didn't say that he was doing. He just kind of did it. And then years later, people like Christiana Hale and others really kind of ferret this out. and you realize this is all these other levels. So we're going to get into that when we come back. I'm speaking to Christiana Hale. The book is Deeper Heaven. And as each moment has unfurled,

I've been waiting to awaken from these trips. I never noticed. Hey there, folks. Eric Metax is here. As you know, our friend, and he's a real friend, Mike Lindell, has a passion to help everyone get the best sleep of their life. But he didn't stop by simply creating the best pillow.

Now Mike has done. it again by introducing his my slippers. My slippers. They're unbelievable. I know all about them, but I got to tell you, for a limited time, you will save $90 on each pair of my slippers. They're expensive. You can save $90. This blowout sale of the year won't last order now. He's taken over two years to develop them. The my slippers are designed to wear indoors and out all day long, made with my pillow foam and impact gel to help prevent fatigue made with quality leather swayed. Call 1-800-978-3057. Use the promo code Eric or go to Mypillow.com.

Click on the radio listeners square and use promo code Eric. The offer will not last long, so order now with promo code Eric at Mypillow.com or call 800-978-3057-80-3057. 800-978 3057. Hey, there, folks. Welcome back. I'm talking to Christiana Hale, who hails, different spelling from Idaho. She's in Idaho now.

I am not in Idaho. I want to be very clear. The book that she has written, and it is wonderful, it's called Deeper Heaven, a Reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. So, Christiana, C.S. Lewis wrote so much. Some people know them from the screw tape letters. Many people know the Narnia Chronicles and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Very few people know that he wrote an absolutely spectacular trilogy of novels for adults, often called the Ransom Trilers. often called the Ransom Trilogy. They are literarily magnificent, and they're full of so much stuff,

so much genius, so many levels. But one level, which is vital and which you write about in your book, which you clarify, is this thing called the medieval cosmology. So let's just break it down for the audience. The ancients believed, and the medieval world believed

that the earth is at the center. Now we now know that's not true, but it kind of doesn't matter. They believe the earth is at the center. And then they could see with the naked eye before telescopes, they could see the sun, the moon, and Mercury, Mars, Saturn, Saturn, Venus, and Jupiter. That's it, right? So those were the medieval planets.

and when you talk about medieval cosmology, first, that's what you're talking about, correct? Yes, yes, correct. So the seven planets of their cosmology. But beyond that, they saw the planets as having very distinct personalities, too, which is something that's very foreign to us. We just look up and we see them and they're pretty in the night sky and they're bright. So give us an example of what we mean with that. So, for example, Jupiter, Jupiter, I would argue they would see as one of the most important planets.

And so in the system. So he is, and I say he, because it's very connected to the Roman god, Jupiter, after whom it's named. But they would see him as the king of the planets. So as Jupiter is the king of the Roman gods. And so connected with kingliness and all of the qualities that are associated with what we think, of a king being like. You can see, also they could see with the naked, well, not quite with the naked eye, but as rudimentary telescopes were developed, they could see the spot in Jupiter's side. So he's the wounded king, which then draws connections to Christ, obviously on the cross.

His side was pierced. And so there comes into all of these then theological connotations as well. And so not that they would see the planets as being distinct from the planetary being. So there's some conflicting accounts. Lewis uses the one where they think of the planet itself, physical planet, as being almost like a mode of transportation for an angelic being that is also the planet in a sense of a planetary figure. This is, I mean, there's so much to it. I guess the, maybe the simplest place to start is when, and your book touches on this, but it's not about this.

But the idea that Michael Ward writes about that, the seven Narnia chronicles, that every one of them corresponds to one of these medieval planets. So, obviously, the lion, the witch in the wardrobe corresponds to Jupiter because it's about a king. And then you get this idea of, why is Father Christmas in there? Well, he's this Jupiter, jovial, kingly, happy character. Because when we use phrases, like we say somebody's jovial, that's what it means. Prince Caspian has this Mars, martial, warring thing. Like, there are all these personalities. I guess Venus is the perfect example.

I mean, talk about, you know, like Venus and Mars, for example, so people can get some idea or about the, or, about the sun because I want people to grasp this idea. When you talk about the personalities of these planets, it's almost like a poetic conceit, right? Yes, it's almost like creating an entire world around a single theme, right, around a certain note that you're trying to hit. And these planetary personalities kind of involve all of this imagery, poetry, atmosphere. They're kind of all wrapped up together. and it's hard to tease them out, which is why I think Dr. Michael Ward's thesis is so brilliant,

and the way that he teases that out from the Chronicles of Narnia, the more you read them, the more you see it, and the more it makes sense and kind of comes into alignment. So, for example, I personally love The Voyage of the Don Treter. That's one of my favorites. And it's the solar book or the book associated with the sun. And, I mean, that one you see very clearly just in the title, right? you have the dawn treader. There's the sun, sun in the title, and they're heading east. They're trying to find, they're heading towards the sun throughout the entire book.

But then as you continue to dive even deeper, you have little details like the sun's metal is gold, and they come to that one island where the water turns things to gold, and gold is a theme. You have dragons. Apollo, the sun god in Greek mythology is associated with dragon slaying. One of his names is Apollo Sauraktonos, which means killer. the dragon. And so there's the whole story with him in the Python, which some argue is a dragon. So there's dragons all over the place, a dragon on the prow of the boat. The dragon, of course, that Eustace turns into, the dragon they find on the island, the sea dragon, the sea monster. There's dragons all over the place as well, which you might think, how does that connect to the

sun? But as you dig more deeply into this personality, you can see how it connects. And I think the key to say is so that people don't get scared away, it doesn't matter if you get all this stuff. That's the beauty of it is that even if you don't get any of this stuff and you just read these books what they are, they're magnificent. But then when you get into these things and understand it more, it just gets deeper and deeper. We'll be right back with Christiana Hale. The new book is called Deeper Heaven. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to the author of Deeper Heaven.

Heaven, a reader's guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. Her name is Christiana Hale. Christiana. Let's leave aside the medieval cosmology for a moment just to familiarize the audience with the plot of these three books. The first book is out of the silent planet. The second book is Paralandra, and the third book is that hideous strength. That's the ransom trilogy. But talk about the general plot. What is this about? Why is it called the Ransom? some trilogy? Yes. So I think the first book, Lewis intended, I think, at the beginning to actually only write a

single book. This happened frequently for him, where he would kind of get sidetracked and it would turn into something bigger than he maybe initially intended it to. And I would argue the first book is almost a kind of a there and back again, almost like The Hobbit story. We have our main character who inadvertently stumbles upon these men who are. trying to abduct a boy to take him to Mars to sacrifice him to the to the Martians. They think the natives require a sacrifice and so they're trying to abduct this boy.

He intervenes. He ends up getting kidnapped in the boy's place. And so he ends up taken to Mars in their spaceship and basically the rest of the book is him trying to find his way and figure out how to get back. Okay, this is the first book called Out of the Silent Planet. First book, out of the silent planet. And Ransom, who's appropriately named because he's a type of Christ. And also, he goes in the place of the boy who these evil characters are trying to kidnap to take to Mars as a sacrifice or whatever.

So that's the first book. And that was written, what? 39. When was that written? I believe so I am really, really bad at memorizing dates. So I believe it was around end of 30. Yes. So 39 sounds right.

might have been 40 right around there. And in a funny way, I mean, this is at the beginning of science fiction. I mean, Lewis, you know, there was some science fiction, H.G. Wells or whatever. But Lewis is writing, it's fantasy. It's a kind of science fiction. But it's more than that. It's very literary. And so you do think that the first book, out of the silent planet, silent planet is Earth, I guess?

Yes. Yes, it is. that that you think that he just meant to just write that book about this guy ransom going to Mars and then and then coming back? I do. And I think that for two main reasons. First, so the book came about as kind of a game or a challenge between him and Tolkien, J.R. Tolkien, who wrote The Hobbit, Lord the Rings. They were talking about stories and kind of bemoaning the lack of stories of the kind of the kind of they. both liked. Like, there's not enough good stories out there that we like. So let's write some. And so the challenge was Tolkien was going to write a time traveling story and Lewis was going to write a space traveling story. Tolkien actually started a time traveling story called the

Lost Road and it was meant to connect his Middle Earth with our, with the contemporary time period. But he never finished it. Somewhat typical Tolkien fashion, he was very much a perfectionist, wanted everything to be perfect, and so it fell off. But Lewis, in typical Lewis fashion, didn't write just one book, but he turned it into a trilogy. But I do think the one book was kind of the answer to that challenge. And the way he had second reason is the way he ends that book, he kind of ends it with this manifesto on why he thinks this is important, and he hopes that this will inspire more exploration of this sort of topic and how he hopes that his readers come away with this sense of not so much space,

but returning to a conception of the heavens instead. And so the way he ends that book, it very much feels like he's kind of done, right? And he even makes a comment about time travel, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, poking Tolkien, like, okay, now it's your turn, right, handing the baton to him. So it very much feels kind of like he was going to only leave it there. But we're very glad he didn't. and he wrote two more books and finished out that trilogy. But I do think it was kind of a second plan.

It didn't start out as a trilogy. It's just amazing. And if anybody just wants to see the genius of Lewis, I mean, what he does in these books is just genius. You can hardly believe that he did anything else with his life because these books are so amazing. But so, yeah, the first book, I mean, to sum it up, it's a trip to Mars.

And of course, because of the, this is the late 30s, it's completely, you know, fantastical view of Mars. And the second book is a trip to Venus. And the third book is that hideous strength. But talk about what he finds on Mars, because this points to the literary genius of Lewis to create a world like a complete. I mean, it's a lot like what Tolkien does in a way, just create another world so convincingly. But so talk briefly about what he feels. finds what this ransom character finds when he gets to Mars.

Yes. So the fascinating thing about what he finds on Mars is he encounters three species, you could say, of a creature on Mars. They are sentient beings that are not human. And the fascinating thing that he does there is that it's actually an unfallen planet that is yet affected by the fall of man. So there's this kind of odd juxtaposition of, ransom, a fallen human being interacting with these sentient, intelligent beings that are not

human and are unfallen and have no real conception of sin nature. And so it really leads to a series of fascinating conversations, which is something that I don't think you could have in the same way if it was set on Earth, for example, or if Lewis was having, or ransom, sorry, was having these conversations with another man by putting it on another planet, by introducing, these creatures, he has all these very fascinating intellectual and philosophical, theological questions that come about that don't, for some reason, don't bore the reader, even though there's page, it can be pages of just conversation, same thing in Peralandra, even more so, I would say. And yet it's just fascinating because it's, because of the backdrop and the setting and the

nature of his conversation partner, that they are having these conversations. conversations that we would never have. And yet Lewis geniusly unravels certain questions that we do have and we do struggle with. And yet he can address them in a very unique way. Because Ransom is talking to what we might call an alien, right? It's a foreign species, foreign conversational partner. And so that's one of the brilliant things I think that he does in both That's what reveals like the level of his genius. It's her freaky level of genius to be able to pull this off. When we come back,

Christiana Hale is going to pronounce the names of these creatures because I can't. We'll be right back. Oh, great. Welcome back. I'm talking to Christiana Hale, H-A-L-E. The book is called Deeper Heaven, a reader's guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy.

Okay, so in the first book, out of the silent planet, this ransom figure goes to Mars. ostensibly Mars. But what's so interesting is he discovers, you know, they're not our version of Martians. When we think of Martians, our fictitious version of Martians, we think of a certain thing. In a way, that world hadn't been established yet, that fictional world that we all kind of live in and where we think Martians look like this or whatever. So what are these three creatures, these types of creatures that he encounters on his version of Mars? Yes, so there's the three types.

There's the hrasa, and again, I'm going to attempt to pronounce these correctly. Every one is impossible. Every pronunciation. So the first one is what? Say it again? Hrasa. H-R-O-S-S-A. Harasa.

And they're like gigantic gerbils or something. Yes, or beaver type. I can imagine them as beaver type, some sort of mammal type of creature. Okay, keep going. And then we have the sorens, which is the easiest to pronounce. The sorens really freaked me out when I first read about them. Yeah, they did. They're kind of bird-like and they're huge.

They're giant, gigantic, and they're kind of almost winged and bird-like. But in the beginning, they're menacing. You don't know. I mean, that's what's so creepy about these books is that you could see Lewis's, he has the ability to write about evil and to scare you. So these are not good books for, like, little kids or anything. Yeah, so the sorn. Yeah, Ransom sees one and runs from it.

Yeah, Sorn. He actually sees one, and that's one of the things that sets him running away because he sees it and he's just terrified by it. But then he encounters the Hrasa, which are a lot less intimidating at first. And he gets to know them. He actually lives with them for a while. So then by the time he actually meets a Sorn again and has interaction with it, he's still intimidated and terrified in a way, but he understands it. He at least understands what he's seeing. and is able to interact with and have conversations with now I dare you to try to pronounce

the third kind of creature on Mars let's see I think it's fiffletriggy Gzintight say it again yeah fiffel triggy fiffletriggy fiffle triggy fiffle triggy that's how I say it I think you're just playing with my head Christiana let's get serious no I've actually when I read that word I was like there's literally no way to pronounce this but you think it's what again so I think I think it's fiffle triggie Fiffle Triggie. So there's a P. The problem is there's a P. FF. He starts out with a PFFF, but I don't, the P is got to be silent. There's no way.

Fiffle Triggy. It's not silent, I think. Fiffle Trigee. I got a bad case of Fiffle Triggy. I can't come. Okay, so, so the three creatures are the Sorns, the Horassa, and the Fiffle Triggy. And I don't remember what do the Fiffle Trigie look like? So they're almost, he mentions dwarves, But then he also, I think, mentions frogs in describing them. So they're very small. They're short, squat, and close to the ground.

They are the ones that work primarily with their hands. So they create things. They're kind of like the miners, the makers. And when ransom in the book encounters one, he's actually carving a statue of ransom. Oh, the fiffle tricky is carving a statue of ransom. And at first he doesn't. recognize it as a statue of himself because it looks so weird to him. It looks because he's seeing it through the Fiffletrigg's eyes, right?

He's seeing, oh, this is what I look like to them. And it's so foreign to him, he doesn't actually realize it's him at first. And then he's also carving a map of the cosmos, which is really fascinating because that's where we see that Lewis in the trilogy is not using the medieval order of the planets. he's actually using our solar system in terms of the arrangement. Holy cow. Now, we're going to a break. That's the end of hour one.

But we've got plenty more with Christiana Hale and hour two. The book, folks, Deeper Heaven, a reader's guide to C.S. Louis's Ransom trilogy. We'll be right back.