The Eric Metaxas Show - Christiana Hale (Part 3)

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

In the third and concluding part of her interview, Christiana Hale, professor at a classical Christian school, presents her fascinating research found in "Deeper Heaven: A Reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy."

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m. Investments.com. Taxis show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. It's, uh, is it Friday? Albin, it's already Friday. It's Friday. The big weekend for the four. My body says it's Thursday, but you're telling me it's Friday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what's the message.

Don't listen to your body. No, okay, so, so, not yours anyway, but mine may be. Do not.

Do not. Now, by the way, I just want to say that this is my birthday week. And I'm going to continue celebrating. It's a new year for me. And I have,

I have goals this year that I don't know if I can speak of them on the air. Can I speak of them on the air? Try. Yeah, I want arms like Tom Fitten. I want, I want a chest. like Arnold Schwarzenegger, I think in the past, I said breasts, technically,

their chess. But I believe in a country like America, you can be whoever you want to be. If you want to lactate as a man, I think that's your right. And when you stand up for our rights or not, whatever you want. No, seriously, though, it's been a fun week seeing friends that I haven't seen for a while celebrating my birthday, celebrating my dad's 95th birthday. I could mention that if you get our newsletter, I sent out pictures of my mom and dad. It was also my mom's birthday.

We always celebrate our birthdays together because they are, you know, my dad and I have the same birthday, but my mom's birthday is only three days before. So we always celebrate our birthdays around the same weekend, which we did last weekend. Now this coming weekend, I'm going to be in Greenwich, Connecticut. Yes, Greenwich, Connecticut. They have churches there now. And I'm speaking at Harvest Time Church. all the details are in my newsletter.

Eric metaxis.com if you sign up for the newsletter or if you go to the website, it's listed there. Next week I'm going to be in Dallas like practically the whole week, which is weird because John Zmirak, who lives in Dallas, he's going to be in New York. Does that make any sense? Nope. But we're going to overlap one day in New York. So in the studio on Tuesday, we're going to have Johns Zmirak in the studio.

I'm so excited. Now, coming up in this hour, Albin, correct me if I'm wrong, you're the producer. We're airing the third part of my three-part conversation with Christiana Hale, who wrote a book called Deeper Heaven. Many times you're wrong, but you are right on that one. Thank you. Deeper Heaven is a spectacular book about C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy.

And if you're interested in deeper stuff, I mean, it doesn't get better than CS Lewis, but her book is the ultimate guide. And you kind of need a guide to understand it. It's interesting because they're deep, they're deep books, but they're great. We talk about a lot of Lewis's other books as well. But anyway, that's airing right after this segment. We're going to air the third part. And of course, like a broken record, if you're signed up for the newsletter, you'll get the video of all three parts.

So you can watch us having the conversation. and you don't have to merely listen to it. But a lot of people I know you listen to us on podcast, and you can do that. I mentioned I'm going to be in Dallas next week. After that, I'm going to be at Freedom Fest in Las Vegas. I'm not a big fan of Las Vegas, but I was invited to speak at Freedom Fest.

I'm going to get to interview John Cleese, Money Python's junk. I can't believe that's happening. In fact, I don't want to think about it because it makes me nervous. It's like when I knew Clarence Thomas was going to call me up on the phone, I got so nervous I was for Clempe. And speaking of Clarence Thomas, is it today? Yes, today.

Today, yep. After my conversation with Christiana Hale, we were airing the conversation we had yesterday with Michael Pack. Folks, Michael Pack is a great filmmaker. And he made a film. It's called, it's about Clarence Thomas. It's Clarence Thomas, in his own words, it's called Created Equal. We'll talk about that an hour two today. it is important.

Most of the stuff I think is actually very important. So we'll talk to him in hour two today, but it really is amazing that he managed to make this beautiful film interviewing Clarence Thomas. And right now when Clarence Thomas is so much in the news, Rovi Wade, so much in the news, it's just so beautiful that he made this film that it aired on PBS. You can find it in all these different streaming services.

but it's called Created Equal about Clarence Thomas. And there's a new book out, which gives you all the stuff they couldn't put in the film. So I'm glad I remembered. Yeah. And that complete interview is going to run next week, too, during the Fourth of July week. By the way, people always ask, well, where's Albin going to be? How do we meet Albin? Well, you know what?

People always say to me. Yep. Just so you know. Is Alvin a real person or character you invented, Eric? And I say, well, in a way, he's a real person. Yeah. But Saturday night at the Sea Wolves game in Erie, I'm going to be there with the family. Are you serious? You're going to be in Erie, Pennsylvania?

Yep, yep. And I forget, it's a farm team for the pirates or something, the sea wolves, Erie Sea Wolf are going to be at that game. Are they double A or AAA? There should be AAA, yeah. Triple A. To me howling. I find farm teams themselves to be Erie, just the idea of it. Yeah. Spooks me.

Yeah. So you're going to be. If you build it, the sea wolves will come. Yeah, it's in a farm. It's on the back end of the area. We're, and then, and then, are you going to Europe next month, Albin? I mean, in the, toward the end of August, we're going to go to, if you, if you like the TV show, Doc Martin, we're going to go to the set of Doc Martin up there in Scotland or something. Gosh.

Yeah. I'm not going to Europe. I'm not going to Europe. I'm bitter. I'm bitter about it. All right. We've got a couple of things to mention. but today Christiana Hale talking about C.S. Lewis with me.

In our two, Michael Pack, talking about Clarence Thomas with me. Next week, gosh, we're airing a ton of stuff next week. Should I even mention it? I probably should mention it. But we have Johns Merrick in the studio next week. Let me say this, in case anybody doesn't know it, for the month of July. Actually, I don't know if I mentioned this. For the entire month of July, Neutrametics has decided.

to make all of their products 30% off. Normally if you use the code Eric, you get 20% off Nutrametics products. For the month of July only, they're doing a special, everything, not just a few products. In the month of June, there was like they picked five products to do 30% off. I guess that went well and they thought maybe 30's the magic number to get people to try Nutramidics products. I want to tell you, folks, I use them absolutely every day. I think immune support is very important. I know it is. And a lot of their products, I mean, I've spoken to secular doctors. When I mentioned Nutrametics, they go, oh, that's a good company. Like, they are really the top level of nutraceuticals and supplements and so on and so forth. Nutrametics.com,

that's with an X, Neutrametics, M-E-D-I-X, Nutrametics.com. But if you use the code Eric, because they're a major sponsor of the program, if you use the code Eric all through the month of July, everything is 30% off. Melatonin, whatever it is. And I say again, the other day, actually yesterday, we had Robert Netsley of Inspire investing on how you invest your money, how you spend your money. It's an issue of stewardship. So I say to people, look, you probably should be taking melatonin, vitamin C, vitamin D,

all these different things anyway. But instead of getting them from wherever you get them, from companies that don't share your values and may be using their profits to work against the things you believe in, why not get those products from nutrometics.com? If you use the code Eric in the month of July, you get 30% off. correct me for wrong, but that's almost the third. Almost. 30% off if you use the code. Eric, obviously

if you go to MyPillow.com and use the code, Eric, you get way more. You get all kinds of stuff off. MyPillow.com. We haven't had Mike Lindell on here in a while. We need to get an update from Mike Lindel. We need to get an update from Dinesh to Susan. Next week, we're going to get an update.

Yeah. From Dinesh. Yes. Yep. And by the way, Speaking of 2000 mules, if you go to SalemNow.com, you can see that there, but you can also see the matter of life, which is a great film about the whole abortion industry and the pro-life movement and pro-choice, so-called, and all that good stuff. Do you think there are people who listen to this program who still haven't seen 2000 mules? Nope. I don't believe it.

I refuse to believe it. I won't hear it. People listening to this program who haven't yet seen 2000 mules. Alvin, that would make them communists. I think so. Wittingly or unwittingly, that would make them communist. So I refuse to believe that. Folks, if you haven't seen 2000 mules, you want to go to SalemNow.com. But don't tell your friends you haven't seen it because that's deeply shameful. We'll be right back. Hey, folks, if you could make money off of abortion or pornography, would you do it? I hope the answer is no.

But I want to tell you, Robert Netsley, the founder of InspireInsight.com, he was the president of his local pro-life pregnancy center when he discovered. that he owned investments in three companies manufacturing abortion drugs. Well, God helped him to see that he was making money from abortion, pornography, LGBT activism, and the list goes on. And that's why he created Inspireinsight.com. Inspireinsight.com gives you instant access to biblical values data on over 23,000 stocks, mutual funds, and ETFs so you can invest to the glory of God.

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And when oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation, that's the last thing we need. Our economy is in trouble and you need to take steps to protect yourself. If all your money is tied up in stocks, bonds, and traditional markets, you are vulnerable. Gold is one of the best ways to protect your retirement. No matter what happens, you own your gold. It is real. It is physical.

It's always been valuable since the dawn of time. Legacy precious metals is the company I trust for investing in gold. They can help you roll your retirement account into a gold-backed IRA where you still own the physical gold. They can also ship gold and precious metals safely and securely to your house. Call Legacy at 866-528-1903 or visit them online at LegacyPMinvestments.com. Folks, welcome back. I'm Eric Metaxis, and I am continuing my conversation with Christiana Hale, who has written a book,

called Deeper Heaven. It is a reader's guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. Christiana, welcome back. Thank you. It's kind of funny that Lewis's Ransom Trilogy is so, you know, big and amazing that it almost, you need a guide, somebody to help you hold your hand to be a Virgil, to, you know, recall the Divine Comedy, to sort of be your guide somehow through this. And that's what you are in this book.

Do you think of yourself as a Virgil? Well, I hope so. I try to me. That's the goal. Yeah, the goal is to give someone a foundation, at least. There's definitely so much more. As I've had more and more conversations about this book and questions that I've had about it, I realize there has to be maybe a third and fourth and fifth edition or something.

It'll keep getting bigger because there's always more. There's always more. And so sometimes, you know, as a writer after it's gone off to the printers, you can be like, oh, I wish I had included that. But really, in essence, the point is to give people a launching pad. It's like here is a foundation, here's a start, here's glimpses of the depths and the richness that is to be found in this series, and to hopefully give you handles to grab onto so that then, hopefully down the road in five, ten, twenty years, there will be even more books like this

that go even deeper or that spot things that I haven't seen because people have gone that direction, right? Because they see a start to it here. Well, reading C.S. Lewis, for me, over the years, it really is a genuine education in understanding life and the world. I mean, I understand the Bible dramatically better because I have read C.S. Lewis. That's what I find so amazing about C.S. Lewis is that the Narnia Chronicles have given me an understanding of theological issues that I don't know that I would have understood them any other way. If I hadn't read the Narnia Chronicles. And I feel the same way about these three books, the so-called Ransom Trilogy, Out of the Silent Planet, Paralandra, and the last one, that hideous strength,

that they help you see things and understand things. I mean, for example, you were just talking about how in the last book, that hideous strength, it's a clash between these two world views, one of which is beautiful and of God, and the other one is demonic. It's this creepy, reductionist scientific, it's like evil science. It's just so creepy. But it reminds me that I don't know,

are you familiar with the book, Chancellor of the Dance by Thomas Howard? I have read it. Yes, been a while, but I am familiar. Well, that book, I mean, that's an example of a book that Thomas Howard met C.S. Lewis and I guess it was 1961 and really writes in that tradition.

and his book, Chance of the Dance, could be like a C.S. Lewis book. It's so, but, but, but, but he directly addresses this issue that you brought up of their two worldviews. One is kind of the medieval Christian worldview. And then the other one is this reductionist, atheistic, materialistic worldview that's impossibly bleak. And reading Thomas Howard helped me really to understand this so that when I read Lewis, I kind of get it. But I think that as people read all of these books, books, it really shapes your imagination. It helps you to think more clearly and helps you understand the world more clearly. So these are not just, you know, fun books to read, which obviously you deal with this in your book, the deeper issue of comprehending the universe as you read these books. Yeah, and understanding it as a story rather than a set of data points, which is why I think the Chronicles of Narnia and the Ransom trilogy are so important and effective is that there's things that you can communicate in an academic essay maybe as data points or in a more didactic sort of manner that won't hit the same as a good story does,

that you can present these truths in a fictional, in a world, in a story, and you don't have to hit it really hard. It's just there. And it kind of, it slips past our defenses, really, and it can affect us emotionally in a way that a list of data points doesn't, which I think is one reason why Chronicles of Narnia are so amazing as stories for kids, because you have these is very simple children's books that just kids love, but there's so much depth there that slips past a lot of the guards that might be up if you were trying to make an argument, right? Your have a logical syllogism laid out there. And I think that's why Jesus uses parables when he's communicating is that we're story,

we're made for story, right? God's telling a story. He's writing the universe, writing our story. And so we are oriented towards stories. And so what Lewis brilliantly does in these books, these fiction books, is communicate really, really heavy issues. And I use that word on purpose. is they're weighty.

And somehow he communicates them in a way that just sticks and resonates and people are willing to read them where they might not go read a treatise on, you know, materialistic reductionism over here. But I'll tell you, it's, it's interesting. Because I've often said that, you know, I've written three biographies. And in the course of writing them, I've realized that when you tell the story of a life, it's very different than making a bunch of points, like you just said. Now, there's one, there's something holistic and human about it.

It's a story. And the other one is kind of reductionist and sort of inhuman and bleak and kind of enlightenment rationality versus this holistic idea of a story and of life. Because God is a person. He is not an energy force or a list of rules. or whatever. And so in a way, Lewis communicates that, but he also lives that out in the way in writing these stories. It's kind of fascinating in a way. You can never escape these ideas that the idea of a story, that's God. The Bible is this story. It's not a list of rules. And if you read it as a list of rules,

you're going to miss the point. You have to get the story and the redemption and all that stuff. And so Lewis profoundly gets that. I mean, that's what's so beautiful about him. You can communicate things that they're impossible to communicate any other way. I want to talk to you just more about your book because there's so much in it, really, and there's so much in Lewis, and you get out so much of it. But to go back to the middle, medieval cosmology. You mentioned that earlier, right? Like you talk about, and again, Michael Ward,

I've interviewed Michael Ward for Socrates in the City. If anybody, I highly recommend people go to Socrates in the City.com and watch my conversation with Michael Ward because it touches on a lot of this stuff and helps it come to life. But Michael Ward talks about this idea that you're talking about that. The medieval cosmos, they would say like Mars has a personality. It's like it has, that's where we get the word martial war. Venus is about love. And so there's this, in the Narnia Chronicles, you see this in each of the books.

But you write about that with regard to the ransom trilogy. And I can't remember how real is that in the ransom trilogy, this K-factor, when you're reading about Peralandra versus reading about Mars. Is it there yet, or does he develop this more in the Narnia books? I think it does come out. It's a little less hidden because it is, you know, the first book is set on Mars. So it makes sense for there to be a martial atmosphere in all the details, right? And so it does come out. Same thing with Peralandra is set on Venus. And so he uses that, the personality, the medieval personality of Venus in all of his descriptions,

down to the fact that the sky is the color of copper. Copper is related to Venus. That's her metal. If you read in the medieval, there's a metal associated with each of the planets, and copper is Venus's metal. So just the color choices, there's a lot of green and copper, green for growing things,

which again is related to Venus. So he uses the medieval cosmology and the personality of the planets in his, setting in the atmosphere and description of both Mars and Venus in the first two books. In the third book, you might expect, well, it's on Earth, so it's a little more obscure. And I would say it is, though there is that one chapter where the oriarsa of each planet actually comes down to Earth, and he describes the effect of each one as they arrive. And that's basically, if you want to, aside from his nonfiction works, like the discarded image,

which is his work on medieval literature. If you want, just kind of a short summary to get an idea of what is this personality of the planets, just read that chapter in that he has strength. Like that chapter with those paragraphs on each planet kind of gives you a very condensed idea of what Lewis thought of the personality of each planet. So not very hidden there. In that hideous strength, you said? In that hideous strength.

I don't remember that. It's been so many years since I've read these books. So in that hideous strength, there's a chapter on this. Yes, it's called The Descent of the Gods, I believe, is the chapter where each one comes down to earth because they're basically imbueing Merlin with special power to go take out the bad guys. I need to reread these books. Okay, we're going to go to a break. We're talking to Christiana Hale, the author of Deeper Heaven. Hey there, folks.

Eric Metax is here. As you know, our friend, and he's a real friend, Mike Lindell, has a problem. passion to help everyone get the best sleep of their life. But he didn't stop by simply creating the best pillow. Now Mike has done it again by introducing his my slippers. My slippers. They're unbelievable. I know all about them. But I got to tell you, for a limited time, you will save $90 on each pair of my slippers. They're expensive. You can save $90. This blowout sale of the year won't last order. Now he's taken over two years to develop them. The my slippers are designed to wear indoors and out all day long MyPillow Foam and Impact gel to help prevent fatigue made with quality leather swayed.

Call 1-800-978-3057. Use the promo code Eric or go to MyPillow.com. Click on the radio listeners square and use promo code Eric. The offer will not last long. So order now with promo code Eric at MyPillow.com or call 800-978 3057. 800-978 3057. Folks, I'm talking to the author of Deeper Heaven, a reader's guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom trilogy. A lot of people don't know anything about C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. Maybe they heard of the Space Trilogy, which is actually the Ransom Trilogy. What is your sense? Because you've written, of course,

Christiana, a whole book about this. You've devoted years to this now. But what is your sense as you talk to people or as people interview about this book of what people know about these books? Or for many people, is this something that they've just never heard of? So I find a mix. Generally, the people I talk to you have heard of them at least, have heard of them.

And so many, though, the response is I tried to read them once and they didn't make it very far. But it's funny because I do find a mixed bag. Some people love out of the silent planet. They zipped through it and they loved it. And then Peralandra is what got them. They couldn't make it through Peralandra. Or they really don't care for the first two, but they love that he has strength. and actually a surprising number of people that read that Hedia's strength on its own as a standalone book, which I kind of understand why.

I mean, we've already mentioned how it's very prophetic in a lot of ways. It's very pertinent. It's as applicable today as it was when it was written, if not more so. And so, and I think people hear that about it and then go read it and they pick it up and they just read that book rather than reading the trilogy as a whole. but even among those people, Merlin is a... Berlin catches people up a lot. So I feel like I'm hearing more and more people that at least have heard of the books, but not as many that have read the whole trilogy or love the whole trilogy equally.

So that's part of the reason for my book reasoning behind is to present it as I do think that this trilogy is a whole. I think the books are each very different, but that they hang together and work together. as a whole trilogy and that they're important to be read in that way as a as an entire trajectory. There's a trajectory to the three books that makes a lot of sense and actually reveals even more of what Lewis was trying to do. When I think of that hideous strength, the third of these books, and the longest, right, it feels to me like a fictional way for Lewis of dealing with the ideas in the abolition of man. Yes. Yeah. And he actually says that in the preface, I believe. He says...

I don't remember that. I'm glad I got that right. He does. Yeah, he says this is a basically a fictional treatment of the ideas that I expressed in my essay, Abolition of Man. So if you want to go read that. You should. Oh, that's hilarious. I mean, I literally, I mean, it's been many years since I've read any of those books, but it makes sense. And so, I mean, maybe sum up, if you can, the concept of the abolition of man, because that's a short book. And it's a very important book, my goodness.

It's very short, very important. Do you remember when Lewis wrote The Abolition of Man? Because I don't. So before, it would be before, actually have, I realized I have my, my book right here, and it has an appendix in it with the dates of Lewis's writing. So I realized that I had that here, and I should have looked at it before. So he published the Ablish of Man in 1943, and that his strength came out in 45. So a couple years later. Oh, well, it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? That's absolutely, that makes perfect sense. Okay, so what are the

ideas in the abolition of man, because this is really central. Yes. And one of the really key factors that Lewis talks about is actually in Abolition Man is actually a medieval concept, which is the medieval concept of a man, a whole man being made up of three parts, the head, the chest, and the stomach. And that those three elements represent reason, passion, or appetite, and the third element, which is the chest, which is kind of the seat of stable emotion or stable sentiment. And it's that element that kind of balances the other two. So what Lewis, and this is important to Lewis's primary issue with the reigning worldview

and that he saw coming out, especially in education, which is that we're not actually educating the entire man in our education. We're trying to, in his time, focus on either just pure rationality, right? Pure reason, logic, alone, science, you could say, or we're giving way to animal appetite and with no reigning, reigning emotion over that, right? And so the chest, the seat of the emotions is what balances out those other two and actually creates a whole and entire person. And that our education should be aimed at creating whole and entire people rather than just almost mechanical robots that just have a set of data points programmed into their brains.

And so that is actually the kind of the key element that comes out in that his strength with the NICE, which is the organization that Ransom and his group is fighting against, is that they're basically trying to strip humanity of everything that really makes it human and just reduce it down to atoms and just the pure physical side of things. And it's exact, I mean, it corresponds to where we are today so dramatically. It's just amazing to me, even the idea that this place is called N-I-C-E- Nice. Like, you know, be nice. But, you know, being nice is not the same as being good.

And now the chapter, I think, in abolition of man that we're referring to is called Men Without Chests. But boy, oh, folks, grab it, read it. We'll be back continuing our conversation with Christiana Hale. Her book is Deeper Heaven. Welcome back. We're talking to Christiana Hale. The book is Deeper Heaven, a reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. So we were just talking, Christiana, about the short book, the important book, the abolition of man.

which in many ways prepares you to read that hideous strength. And it's so fascinating to me that Lewis was very much a prophet, you know, not in the mystical sense, although James Como argues that in some ways he had to be a prophet of the mystical sense because he wrote about things that were, anyway, they were not just of the head. But that chapter we just referenced, the men without chess. I mean, that sort of sums up everything about what's wrong with where we are today. And I think it can help a lot of people understand what's wrong. Because I think a lot of people don't know

how to process what's happening in the world today. And I think Lewis just magnificently does that. So talk a little bit more about that idea of men without chess because it's really at the heart, no pun intended, of everything that we're dealing with. Yes. And, and, And so obviously we have the two extremes, right? There's the two extremes. If you don't have the chest or the middle element, which is that balancing, you can almost say balancing or raining element, you're either going to give way to just pure logic and reason,

which is going to basically cut you off from any emotional emotion, whether it's staple or otherwise, right? You have that cold logic, scientific side. and then on the other side you have the other ditch which is being enslaved to just your desires right your your appetite and so then you have no no reigning philosophy whatsoever it's just whatever whatever feels good whatever you want which we we can see a lot going on today and Lewis talks about this in a little bit in the sense when he's mentioning using the word sublime and that there is when you call something sublime there's this educational tendency that he saw cropping up in his day to say, well, you're not actually making any statement about the reality in front of you. You're purely making a statement about your own feelings about that reality. When you say that waterfall is sublime, you're just saying that it gives you sublime feelings. There's not actually a correspondence between the language that you're using

to describe it and the reality, which in essence breaks down any meaning whatsoever. There is no meaning and all your language is, is just a reflection of what's going on in your head. Okay. Now, the key to this to me today is that when people say, I feel like I'm a woman, even though biologically you would see me as a man, I'd say I feel I'm a woman, the subjectivity of things and the rejection of reality. That's really what Lewis is writing about a long, long time ago. He put his finger on this issue, that subjectivity, it's a way of making the self God and saying that God's reality,

I reject God's reality. I can be what I want to be. I reject it. I hate it. I curse it. It's really creepy because there's something spiritual. And we see that going on dramatically today where we're being told by people with no argument

that you must accept what I say about myself or whatever. And you think, well, wait a minute, there's this thing called reality. And they're like, no, there's no such thing called reality. We say, no, there's God and God created reality, and it's not really mutable, it's reality. And that's the battle we're fighting right now. And Lewis is writing about this in the abolition of man literally 80 years ago. And we've taken it, I feel like it's gone even a step farther in some ways. You know, in his time it was, we can't actually make a statement about reality.

The statements we make are just really reflections of our. feelings on reality. But where we've gone to even more, and I think he saw this coming, is that we can actually impose those feelings onto reality and make it what we want it, which we saw, see that a little bit in that hideous strength, that they are, the NICE is trying to basically imprint its version of reality onto the physical material world. So we go from, well, you can't really make any statements about what is real or what is not. Everything you say is just a reflection of your own psyche, your own feelings to now those feelings that you have can actually be manifested and you can make them a reality and everyone around you has

to recognize that reality. So they can have their own reality as long as it doesn't, it doesn't encroach upon your reality. So I think Lewis saw that coming because it's just the natural next step of dissociating yourself basically from the world of. around you and saying there is no objective truth and the world outside me is basically a blank canvas. The material world is a blank canvas. It's clay that I can shape into whatever mold I want. And that that just leads us down a crazy rabbit hole, really. Well, I mean, I guess Lewis did see it in this time because another way of describing this is called it's the triumph of the will, the triumph of the self over God's reality, which is a satanic project.

And he obviously saw this happening in intellectual circles, and then you see it happening, obviously, in Germany, where you try to create, I mean, it's always, you know, it's tragic comic because you know it can never succeed. Reality is reality. God is, he's created this stubborn thing called reality. And you can kick against the goads sometimes for decades. But in the end, reality always wins, you know, the truth will out. But what Lewis is talking about is this satanic desire to undo God's reality and to create our own reality. So it really is like Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost. It's I want to reign in my reality.

And I want to undo God's reality. And so there's just so much here. It's just so rich. And it's all through so much of what Lewis writes. Yes, and so it's the better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven that Satan says in paradise lost. Or questioning, and from the beginning, it's the essential lie, has God indeed said, right? Questioning what God has said and then what is your objective duty then to that commandment. And I think it is, the thing is, it is very consistent with an evolutionary materialistic worldview.

right? If there is, if matter is all there is, and we came from goo and we've been changing and shaping and becoming different things for billions of years, then why can't I just keep doing that, right? So it is consistent, self-consistent, but very much obviously against what we know to be true. It's amazing, really. It's so, so vital to where we are today. We'll be right back final segment with Christiana Hale, the author of a book I recommend highly. It's called Deeper Heaven, a Reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Christiana Hale. Have you bought the book yet? It's called Deeper Heaven, a reader's Guide to C.S. Lewis's Ransom Trilogy. We have to be clear.

The Ransom Trilogy, a lot of what Lewis writes, but particularly Ransom Trilogy, this is not, you know, for simple folk. This is some heavy stuff. It's some deep stuff. Some of it's challenging. So it needs a guide, and you have been that guide, and you are that guide in this book, Deeper Heaven. Christina Hale, what are you doing when you're not talking about this new book? I mean, you teach junior high, really? I do. I do.

Yes, Latin and English. So easy subjects. Yeah. No, it is a fun age. It's challenging. Every time I say I teach junior high. high, you know, people, people react different ways, but it is a challenging age, but I, I love teaching that age. It's a really formulative period, I think, in our maturation, and they're just

excited and interested in everything. So it keeps me on my toes, asking, answering lots of random questions, you know, never quite know what, what a 13-year-old is going to ask you today, so. Right. But, yeah, I love, I love it. And it really is, I mean, it's an extension of, what I love in other areas. So I love research and writing. And so teaching kids all day, it just basically is a captive audience. They literally cannot leave that I get to just talk to all day about the things I like. It's just amazing. Now, are you working? Do you do other writing? I think you do, right? You've written other books or you're working on other books? What else is happening in your life in terms of writing? Yeah, I am working on other books. So I just finished my master's

of fine arts in creative writing. So it's funny. It is funny to me. If you had told me back when I was a teenager that my first book was going to be a nonfiction guide to C.S. Lewis, I probably would have laughed at you because as many high schoolers, I loved writing novels. I wrote fiction. I always, I always wanted to be a writer, but I was primarily interested in telling stories and writing fiction. And so it still makes me laugh sometimes that this is the trajectory that my life has taken. But I am still, I have not abandoned writing fiction. So I am still, I am working on a novel currently. It's still still, still in process of being drafted, various drafts. So we'll see what happens. And I'm still studying Lewis, still working on, on research there. There's potentially another

another Lewis book coming out in the future. It's down the road, but I'm... On what aspect of... Until we have faces. Oh, my goodness. So we have faces. There's another heavy one, man. Wow. Another heavy one. So that would probably be a little ways down the road because I'm in research mode right now, which takes, you know, that's, that's the bulk of my writing process is the research mode and then then got to get going on writing. So it's going to be down the road ways, but that's the other one that gets people scratching their heads, I feel. It's another one that people either love it or hate it and or confused by it and have questions. So, and it's another one that I absolutely love and think is one of his best fictional works. There's no doubt that Peralandra and until we have faces are literary masterpieces. There's no question about it. Okay, just seconds left. What's roughly the setting of this fiction, this work of fiction that you're working on?

Thank you. So it's a fantastical realism, I would say. So it's set in the current time, set in the Pacific Northwest, because that's what I know. And there's a witch and there's dragons and lots of adventure. So it's pretty fun. Unbelievable. And it's said in the present. Crazy.

Yes, it is. Well, look, it's just a delight to get to know you and your work. The book, Deeper Heaven, is just a wonderful achievement. And it is genuinely important. And I know that many people will be introduced to Lewis's Ransom Trilogy as a result of your having written this book, Deeper Heaven. So Christiane, Hale, thank you for that. And thank you for your time.

God bless you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.