The Eric Metaxas Show - Colin Nicholl (Encore)

Episode Date: December 25, 2020

Ever wondered whether the Star of Bethlehem was real? Don’t miss this special holiday edition of the show, as Eric takes us back to Merry Ole England for his enlightening conversation with author and biblical scholar Colin Nicholl. (Encore Presentation)

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. There's a time for getting around and a time to be serious. This is not one of them. Broadcasting coast to coast to coast, whatever that means. But the Empire State Building in the heart of New York City. This is the Eric Mataxis show with your host, Eric Mataxis. This is the Eric Mataxis show. I'm Eric Mataxis.

I hope you're enjoying your Labor Day weekend, what's left of it. Some of you know that earlier this summer, I went to Oxford, England, to record a series of conversations for something we call Socrates in the city. One of the most extraordinary conversations of the group. If you've ever wondered, is the star of Bethlehem in the Bible real? Dr. Colin Nicol has solved the problem. Right now, this is my conversation in Oxford, England, with Dr. Colin Nicol about his book, The Great Christ Comet. What we have today is, without a doubt, extra-spynolds. special. It is sort of, it's news, I guess. I don't know that we've done anything before that's news. It may be news to the folks watching it, may have not heard of it before, but this is actual news.

This is a big deal in the world of biblical studies, in the world of historical studies. This is a big deal. And I have the privilege of interviewing in a few moments, the author of a new book, The Great Christ Comet. I think Dr. Nicol, the author, pronounces it. Great Christ Comet. But wherever you're from, it's really great. And I had the joy of reading this book, and it is so exciting.

So I hope we can give you a soupsaint, something, a taste of what this is. I hope you'll read the book yourself. But to give you a background of what we're talking about, First of all, Dr. Nickel claims, and I think proves that's what makes this so big, to have discovered what is the thing that we call the Star of Bethlehem? Just big stuff here. So in any case, so he's the author of this book, which will be just out now.

The Great Christ Comet released officially September 30th, 2015. The Great Christ's comment, revealing the true star of Bethlehem. Previously, he's written from Hope to Despair in Thessalonica. Sounds like an independent film. Previously, a teacher at the University of Cambridge, by the way, he got his PhD at the other place. And he was professor of New Testament at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary in my neck of the woods, New England. he has devoted himself, to say the least, to biblical research. His articles have appeared in publications such as the Journal of Theological Studies

and the Times of London. Ladies and gentlemen, please give a warm Socrates in the city. Oxford edition, welcome to my guests for this eighth and final session here. Dr. Colin R. Nichol. Dr. Nicol, welcome to the stage, to this forum. So glad to have you here. Have a seat. Oh, look at this. You weren't excited enough.

The first copy of the book, there it is. You have got to be excited. Well, it is, it's the culmination of four and a half years of a lot of work. Essentially, I'm a biblical scholar, so it was really a journey, a long journey, into astronomy. and little by little bit conquering more and more and eventually slowly but surely in stages coming up with it and many eureka moments along the way. So it really is, it's exciting, it's kind of nerve-wracken too,

presenting the findings to the world. The great John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics here at Oxford, has written an outstanding book quite breathtaking in the range of its scholarship, a real tour de force. J.P. Morland, distinguished professor of philosophy at Biola, has called it a stunning book, now the definitive treatment of the subject. I think you can relax. This is exciting. It's huge.

So before we get into the details, let's go back to the beginning. First of all, your story, where did you grow up? Well, I grew up on the north coast of Northern Ireland, a little town called Coal Rain, not far from the Giants Causeway, Dunluss Castle, which was a place that C.S. Lewis liked to go. So a beautiful causeway coast, one of the most gorgeous parts of the world, really. The famous causeway of Finn McCool. You know your stuff? If only they could find the bones of Finn McCool, that would be something for a book.

You didn't know? No. They have his skull in some castle someplace. Well, okay, so you grew up there. What was your upbringing like, and when did you think you would be interested? in the life of a scholar and a biblical scholar? Well, I grew up in the troubles, really. The troubles were only getting going when I was born.

It was a strange time in Northern Ireland. There was a lot of kind of animosity between the different sides. Although where I lived, it was relatively mild. I did, in my hometown, my dentist, his building, was destroyed by the IRA. And I remember him showing me his Bible that had come through the bomb. The police used to check outside the cars

during church time to make sure no one was planting a bomb. There was a little bit of kind of insecurity. You know, you were driving down the road and you'd see the military, the English soldiers and Scottish soldiers with their guns pointing out the back right at you when you're in the car behind,

things like that that you don't forget. And Northern Ireland was a lot. an interesting place to grow up in that respect. But, you know, I was relatively sheltered from that. And I grew up in a Christian home, was always, always from the earliest age, loved the Bible. Even, I remember getting my first biblical book when I was seven or eight years old. I loved theology. I mostly loved studying the Bible. And really... So your parents were serious about their faith? Yes. So they weren't just nominal Christians. They were quite serious. Yes, and they always encouraged me to do whatever I wanted to do in terms of, in my case,

studying in the Bible. So really from an early age, when I was about 13 and 14, I felt a very strong desire and call into devoting myself to Christian work and ultimately my passion of studying the Bible. It's, you know, it's an extraordinary and a rare thing for someone that young to be excited. about studying the Bible. You realized that? Well... Or did you have a little gang who specialized? In exegesis, you'd go back behind the supermarket where nobody could see you and do your secret exegesis until the cops came?

No, I definitely was rare or unique depending on your perspective. And that was something I did myself that not many other people too were doing. But it was my hobby. I even tried writing little books and things like that when I was at age. So I always had a kind of desire and love for research and writing. Amazing. Okay, so what happens? Where did you go to school, to college?

Well, I remember getting to that stage where they're talking, the school is talking about where you're going to go to university, what are you going to do? And they were encouraging me to go to, the school was encouraged me to go to me in British University, Cambridge or Oxford or somewhere like that. And I felt that I should go to the United States to have a different kind of experience, a more focused biblical education and somewhere where I could specialize more in the things I wanted to do. because I was so sure that I wanted to be a biblical, to do biblical studies and to, in a sense, do ministry in that way,

that was a very natural choice for me. So already at age 17 or 18, you were that focused on what you wanted to do. So you decided to go not to Oxford nor Cambridge, but to Moody Bible Institute. I went to Moody Bible Institute. That's the Oxbridge of Chicago. It's actually in its own way,

course, very distinguished, but what a surprise, the idea that you'd come from Northern Ireland, north of Belfast to Chicago. You've been listening to The Eric Mataxis show. More of My Socrates in the City, Oxford conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol coming up next. You're listening to the Eric Mataxis show. This is a special presentation of My Socrates in the city, Oxford, conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol about his book, The Great Christ, Comment. And then you went to Trinity Seminary, all the first.

Also in Chicago. That's right. Yeah. And then when, how long were you in the States? Two years at Trinity after four years. Did you go to Gordon Conwell immediately after that? No. Where'd you go after that?

When I finished up at Trinity, I had a master of divinity. And then I went to St. Andrews with a view to doing a PhD there in the Book of Revelation under Richard Bockem. A PhD in the book of Revelation. That sounds like a joke, you know, that. that. It's like, yeah, that dude's got a PhD in the book of Revelation, man. Watch, watch out. You actually, so what happened? You go to St. Andrews. You don't get, you don't get a PhD. You end up getting your PhD at Cambridge. Well, what happens, I went to, I went to St. Andrews. And then when I was, no sooner had arrived and I really realized that my specialty initially

shouldn't be the book of Revelation, but the Apostle Paul. I thought that was a better course of action for me in particular I wanted to study Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. Which you did? Which I eventually did. In Cambridge? In Cambridge, yeah. But we were living there for a long time and a lot of time I was kind of what's the point of us living here because it wasn't

actually at St. Andrews but yet we're living near St Andrews in a lovely little fishing village called Anstrother which was a great experience in many ways right in the Firth of Fourth. We were in this, the Firth of Fourth. Yes, it's a tongue twister there. The Firth of Fourth You got it.

Do I? The Firth or Fourth. Okay. Yeah, the Firth of Fourth. So we're looking right across to Edinburgh in the distance. And then you see that any time there were storms and there were quite a few Nor'Easters, as they talked about, they would whack the wall and then the spray would come up. The four stories of the dwelling that we were in. It was really amazing. And then the door to get into our apartment was on the side right by the Firth of Fourth. So when the spray would hit, you had about that 20 seconds. to get into the door, get the door unlocked, and get it open.

And if you fumbled in any way, even if you're wearing your suit, you were absolutely dementia. And that happened to me in number three. The first of fourth was a scary place. It would make you want to go to the pub for a fifth. Thank you very much. You've been a great audience. Good night.

Okay, so, but let's leap ahead. So you know what you want to study. You study Paul here at Cambridge. you study Thessalonians here at Cambridge and you come out with this book I guess this book must be the the book version of your PhD thesis Well that's right

What ended up happening was the Scottish office Because I'd lived in Scotland Ended up paying for my whole PhD Which is the And then when I was at Cambridge I studied under the Lady Margaret's professor there Who was a Pauline expert And then from that

Ended up My research topic was on One and two Thessalonians or first and second Thessalonians, in particular looking at the situation undergirding the letters and seeing, does the situation in one Thessalonians, cannot be reconciled with the situation in two Thessalonians?

Because a lot of scholars were saying two Thessalonians wasn't by Paul, one Thessalonians was. And so this was a way of demonstrating that the two letters fit together and that there was a continuity. And it also, of course, opened up the rise to the situation of an early Greek Christian Church.

So since I don't know that anyone else here is a biblical scholar, what draws you in? In other words, is it that you're hunting for something? You feel like there's a puzzle or a code or that you can discover something that there are hidden things in the text, that there are things that have never, I mean, because, you know, it would seem to me that, oh, you know, everything that's been discovered roughly has been discovered. People have poured over these texts endlessly.

How could there be anything that hasn't already been discovered? It doesn't seem to me that that's the case as we talk. No, it's not. A lot of people strangely do have that attitude. But I think it's a major mistake. Much like a scientist sees all kinds of mysteries and things to explore. In my opinion, the biblical studies, is full of the same things. But that's the difference.

In other words, science, studying this world, you can see how this world would have the potential, you know, for infinite study, right? I mean, there's so much here that, you know, we don't know what's inside a quark or what you can go down, down, infinitely down into things to the infinitesimal level, and then you can go out and you can go there is so much. But the biblical text, unless you believe that it was inspired by the God, outside the universe, unless you believe that, you would think that it's fairly finite, you know, like how much can be discovered in, you know, great expectations by Dickens.

At some point, people have figured out this symbolizes this, that symbolizes that, in other words, talking about whether something has infinite possibilities or infinite depth gets to the very heart of what you believe about scripture. Well, I think you're right. And I say, yes, I know, in the sense of it's yes, because it's certainly in my experience, there's almost a test when you're reading scripture. It's very easy to cop out in your exegesis

to look at the text and say, this doesn't seem to make sense on this level and then give up on it. And that's really what a lot of scholars will do at different points and say, you know, it doesn't make sense. I'm just going to say Paul contradicts himself or whatever at this point. And there is a sense in which,

if you have a high view of scripture, you hang in with it. It's a test of faith, really, at that point. And so you push and you push and you search in the expectation that there is an answer, never forcing the data, of course, but always seeking to be honest and with this kind of pursuing an answer.

So it does lead to a more rigorous approach to the biblical study. On the other hand, I think even for someone who didn't believe have a high view of scripture, there still is lots that hasn't, been discovered, and I think many scholars would still be convinced that there's lots in the New Testament, an Old Testament, to be discovered and to be mined. And a lot of times they come at that by adopting

a particular literary approach or sociological. Well, I mean, again, that's like literary criticism, but what we're talking about here, at least what I want to talk about, is this idea that you've got a view of scripture that says, this is not just a literary text, this is the word of God. And if that is true, it has infinite depth, and it is infinitely and eternally true. And that changes how you study it. In other words, you have a faith that I can push and dig in any direction, and I'm not going to hit bedrock. I can just keep going and discovering more and more and more. The riches are, so to speak, infinite.

I'm sure not everybody approaches scripture that way, and it seems to get to the idea behind. what you've done here. In other words, what you have done in this new book, the Great Christ Comment, is that you have assumed that the Star of Bethlehem existed and every description of it is true and therefore must make some kind of sense. What sense does it make? No one has ever made sense of it before. 100%. That's all of my scholarship is motivated by that. It's, I, I am convinced that it does make sense. I'm willing to live with the tension. of not understanding something, although I need to understand it.

So it drives me crazy if I don't understand it. So, yeah, I won't stop until I've got my mind around it. And part of that process is praying, asking God to help me understand it. So my faith does engage with my scholarship at that level, and there are some things where, You know, you can study it for a long time and just not get it. Because a lot of biblical exegesis is studying it, reflecting it, doing the historical study, all that you do.

But at the end of the day, it's those flashes of inspiration, which suddenly open up your mind. And it's just like a whole new level becoming. I mean, but scientists say to say exact same thing, that they study a problem or a math problem for years, and suddenly, you know, you know what the carbon atom looks like, you know, if it comes to a flash or in a dream or something. I've never dreamt about carbon, I'm just saying.

But what we have here is a dramatic case of what we're talking about. But before we get to that, in just a moment. Now, let's go back. So you do this work in Thessalonians at Cambridge. What comes next? and what leads you to this subject? Well, what comes next? When I finished up at Cambridge, I taught there.

I did some teaching in terms of Greek, which was a really fun experience. I did some supervisions in the area of New Testament and then examined a little bit. And while I was doing that, I was also looking for a more long-term arrangement. You are listening to the Eric Metaxus show. More of My Socrates in the city conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol about his book, The Great Christ Comet, coming up next. Folks, just don't want to forget to let you know. There is still time to give to CSI.

We're still doing the campaign. So if you want to participate in freeing people from slavery, all you have to do is go to Metaxistalk.com. Metaxistalk.com. Don't miss the opportunity. It's still available. You're listening to a special presentation of the Eric Metaxus show. We taped this in Oxford, England.

It is a Socrates in the city conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol about his groundbreaking book, The Great Christ Comet. Listen in. So five years you're in Massachusetts on the North Shore teaching, New Testament. It's a phenomenal place. Great faculty, wonderful students, really a phenomenal thing. place to study. Was it there that you stumbled on this, or was it after that? No, no, it wasn't. I was working on a lot of projects, really there, getting kind of

insights into a lot of different projects while I was there, but not this. Okay, when you say insights into different kinds of projects, what does that mean? Future projects? Other projects I've been working on. basically there was a long time when I was at Gordon Comwell when I'm preparing a class

a lecture on something and as I'm preparing it I'm thinking but I you know this is a big puzzle or a big mystery you see something and I go well I know what that is I need to be able to develop it the problem is I was so busy and working so hard at Gordon Coma

I wasn't able to really develop the insights so that was building up within me as a real tension. And there came a point, it almost became unbearable for me personally, because I knew I had to write. There were so many projects that I knew were extremely important. Okay. And so, and you're excited about these things, obviously, because you're, you're finding things that haven't been found before, insights that haven't been seen. So, so you have a passion to get on with those things. And at some point, I guess, one of those things is this thing.

Well, what happens is then I eventually leave Gordon Commonwealth to go and devote myself to writing. And so I've returned to Northern Ireland to do that. The nice thing about Northern Ireland is it's a peaceful spot. I don't get a lot of interruptions. I'm able to just do my business and be devoted to what I'm doing. So I was there working on a lot of other projects. And really what happened in regard to this book,

my father-in-law, he was really excited by a DVD that had come out, I think, 2007 by Rick Larson on the star of Bethlehem. Okay, I saw that. Yeah. And that really fascinated me because I thought, boy, oh, boy, if we could ever really figure out what is, what was the star of Bethlehem, that's a big deal. I mean, that's a big capital M mystery that's been hanging out there for 2,000 years. Yeah. So that's what pulled you into this subject. Well, yes and no.

I get another yes and no. In the sense, first of all, I initially wasn't at all interested in the subject. I had my other topics which I was getting insights into, and I felt like I was breaking new ground in. And then my father-in-law asking me to do this, and he's a nice guy. Ask you to do what? To watch this DVD and respond to it. So I didn't want to offend them. To watch the DVD well.

It's not too much. No, no, it's not much. But, you know, then you've got the... But this is the four and a half years of work after that. Well, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I'm watching this DVD, knowing that I have to give my response to my father-in-law,

and find a gracious way if I don't like it. I don't like it, you know. So there's a little bit of family... Okay, so you watched it? Yeah, you know. So I watched this DVD. And it didn't sell you? No, no, it didn't sell me.

I mean, it was beautiful production. I mean, it was really classily done, you know, and most impressive in that regard. But there were enough things in the presentation which struck me as implausible. And, for example, having to redate Herod's death from what's all historians virtually would accept that Herod died in 4 BC. But that, you know, that particular view has to shift the date a few years in order to, kind of a conundi in theory. That was a big flag for you. That's one of a number of problems.

And there are a number of things like that. See, that's the thing, is someone like me watching that, I would never pick up on that. And of course, I didn't pick up on that. But your biblical scholar, you picked up on these things. So you watched it, and you weren't convinced. No, no, there are a number of problems with it in terms of even... I knew enough about, you know, ancient views to know that Leo was never regarded

as the constellation of the Jews and this whole idea that Regulus, the star, which is the main star in the constellation, Leo, the claim being made in the program, was that that was the Messiah star in some sense. Because it's the king, regular. Okay, well, so, you know, I knew that that's not really, certainly in terms of Leo, that's an invented association with Israel. The ancients didn't regard to the...

Okay, so you thought he was stretching some things and eventually it falls apart for you. So what happens now? Well, that drives me back to the biblical text at that point, It did. Not necessarily because I wanted to resolve the issue, because I wanted to answer the questions for my father-in-law, right? So I'm trying to find nice, delicate ways of putting things in nice,

succinct. The thought of having to do an exegesis for your father-in-law has never occurred to me. It's a heck of a life you've got. So, well, so tell me, you go in, and do you become more compelled by this as you do your ex-a-geesis? As I'm doing, as I'm looking at Matthew chapter 2, I'm starting to see, obviously, problems with, more problems with that kind of view that Rick Larson was promoting, but also starting to do a little bit of a reading around the topic, the different views on the star of Bethlehem, and increasingly seeing the problems with all the major views.

And yes, as you say earlier, there's that, but wait a minute, that's what it kicks in. You've been listening to the Eric Mattaxas show, more of My Socrates in the city, Oxford conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol coming up next. You're listening to a special presentation of the Eric Mataxis show. This is my conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol in Oxford, England, about his book, The Great Christ, Comet. This really did happen. I'm convinced it really did happen. It's unlikely to be a miracle as such because it's said to be a star. It's viewed by professional astronomers and astrologers.

It does what a star does. it rises, you know, first appearance, then it rises, standing over. These are all things that were said in the ancient documents of an actual astronomical... Remember that most people listening to this don't recall what the scriptural text says about the star of Bethlehem. So refresh us. I mean, I remembered when I was reading your book, I was astounded to see for the first time things that, I mean, I had read them before. But, you know, the idea that it stood over the house or it did this or it did that, I thought, I've never really, because many of us inadvertently pick up the Christmas version of this,

that there's a manger and a stable and a star above it, and that's the end of the story. But when you read the text, it's much more complicated. It's extremely complicated. And when you look at how complicated it is, it creates huge problems. It doesn't really make easy sense, obviously. And so I assume that's what happened with you. You're reading it and you're trying to figure out what could it be that fits all these descriptions, Are these descriptions accurate or has the text kind of spun the, you know, put some English on the ball so that it moves a little bit this way when it needs to be really this is the translator?

And you're now responsible to figure this out. Yeah, well, essentially that's the issue right there. You're looking at the different views and you're saying, well, wait a minute, at every one of the views at some point backs off of a kind of straightforward reading of what Matthew says. You know, Matthew opens up by saying that these magi come, and they make this journey to Jerusalem. They arrive in the city, and they go around asking, where is he who's been born, King of the Jews, for we have seen his star at its rising,

and we have come to worship him. Then they go, they meet with Herod, Herod the Great, and notice I didn't say, great. I could have said it that way. How did you do that? I've been in America long enough to try it. How'd you do that? So they meet with Herod.

Herod passes on the information they need, which is where is the Messiah to be born. He Herod himself in the meantime has found out from the Jewish teachers that the Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem. So he passes this information on to the Magi and then inquires from the Magi, and then inquires from the Magi,

I will, you know, where, when did the star first appear? That's a very strange question, really. But it's a very important question, when did the star first appear? And he ascertains from them when it appeared. The Magi then go, having been deluded by Herod, they go to Bethlehem in pursuit of the Messiah. Herod had really a two-fold plan in mind. The first one was targeted assassination. where he finds out effectively precisely where the Messiah is located within Bethlehem

and then he sends his men down to slaughter the Messiah. That's, if you want to put it in his terms, probably the cleanest way of dealing with his problem. His backup is if it doesn't work, his backup is to then have a more broad-scale slaughter of the infants of an appropriate age in Bethlehem in the surrounding district to make sure that he can kill the Messiah. What would the population, roughly speaking, have been of Bethlehem during this time?

Because we kind of hear this, the slaughter of the innocence. What are we talking about? It was a village? It's a village. You know, you're probably talking. There's a lot of different estimates. But in terms of the children, you're probably talking no more than in the Bethlehem and surrounding district, probably no more than 20 to 40 children being killed.

Of course, that's a lot of... But it's one of these things, again, it's like when you read scripture, You've heard it a million times. It's like reading a fairy tale. But then when you actually think that, no, this didn't happen once upon a time. It happened not long ago in historical time where you have an historical figure sending his thugs to murder 20 to 40 infants. It is an absolutely unthinkable thing for us, really. That level of brutality.

but that's of course it makes perfect sense when you know the situation. Well, you know, we know that Herod was from Josephus. We know he was, and especially in his final years, a vicious king and very paranoid. He killed three of his own sons for conspiring against him. He killed one of his wives. He even went to the extent of setting it up so that a nobleman, one from every noble family, would be killed at the point of his own passing, to ensure that it would be weeping at his funeral.

This stuff, you know, it's very hard for us to get our heads around this, but we need to understand this is history, this is true. Well, so, okay, so let's go back. You say that the Magi have been following the star. They came from where? Some place in Iraq? Most probably Babylon. Babylon was really the NASA, if you want, of the ancient world.

NASA. Yeah, I'm trying to put it in American terms. It's the NASA of the ancient world. Action control. They have records going back to the 8th century or beyond BC. So for hundreds and hundreds of years, records of astronomical phenomena. And we have records or leftovers of some of those today. So we know a good bit about it, and it was famed throughout the ancient world Babylonian astronomy.

And how far would the trip take? you write about this in the book, from Babylon to Bethlehem or to Jerusalem. I mean, as a crow flies, it's about 550 miles. Okay, but they weren't riding a crow. So this would have taken them how long with camels and that kind of thing? Well, a camel caravan travels at approximately the speed of a human walking because usually a human is leading the lead camel. So three miles an hour?

Yeah, two to three miles an hour. And depending on terrain also, obviously. So you were expecting it to take something in the range of a month, give or take a little. Okay, so they traveled for a month to see this Messiah. So clearly, whatever they witnessed, astrologically speaking, is huge. Well, no, it's a huge. You make a very good point because, you know,

we're so used to the kind of nice Christmas story where it almost doesn't, it lacks. the reality and the grit of history. You are listening to the Eric Metaxus show. More of My Socrates in the city conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol about his book, The Great Christ Comet, coming up next. We shall rise. We shall rise.

We shall rise. Amen. We shall rise. On that resurrection morning when there's been bar to grope, and we shall rise. Baby, when I met you, there was peace of love. You're listening to the Eric Metaxus show. This is a special presentation of My Socrates in the city, Oxford, conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol about his book, The Great Christ Comet. These are real astrologers and astronomers who spend their lives observing the stars.

Every day they're keeping records. They're also doing astrology where they're people that come in to get their feet and they're accessing their records to answer these questions. and come up with explanation. But in this case, in other words, they're saying that the stars have told them that a great king has been born. I'm not just the king, the Messiah, the Jewish king. The Jewish Messiah. So even though they're in Babylon, they care about this? What sense do they have about the Jews and the Jewish Messiah?

Oh, exactly. 550 miles away. Well, this is a key part of the mystery, because here they come from Babylon asking the Jew, they come to Judea and ask the Jews, where? is he who's been born king of the Jews. So they've interpreted what they've seen in the eastern sky to be an actual sign of the Messiah's birth. And they're so confident about this, they actually come expecting to find a newborn Messiah. So whatever they've seen has obviously been deeply impacting, has shaken their world and led them to do something which was really

extraordinary. Okay, but in Babylon, astrologers would have had a sense of the Jewish Messiah would have understood that the Jews are awaiting Messiah? Well, in the sense, they would have had, we know from Tacitus, that there was a broad expectation within

the ancient, broad knowledge in the ancient world and the ancient air east of messianic expectation. And so it does, it raises the question, what did they see? And that is really strangely enough a question that not many people ask.

I was going to say I never asked that until I watched the 2007 DVD, which fooled me, and until I read your book, to see how complex it is, that there's so many things in the text that have to be reconciled, and it's effectively impossible to do, except I think that you've done it.

So at what point did the penny drop for you? So you start studying this. What's that process like? Well, it was a process that had various kind of eureka moments, along with a lot of hard labor. When did you think you were on to it? Well, I had been doing some work on comets and asteroids as part of general reading,

and then I was, along with my kind of basic reading in the Star of Bethlehem. and really then one day my wife asked me, well, what do you think it is? Because obviously it's her father that was somebody. He's still in the picture? Holy cow. Did he dedicate the book to him?

No, no, no. Did you throw a copy at him? Okay, so you, but I still, I'm just thinking that you, you know, you're doing this research. At what point do you think, I think I know what it is. It's a comet. This is it. Because my wife then said to me, well, what do you think it is?

And in answer to the question, I kind of at that moment put everything I had been doing in separate arenas together. And I said, it seems to me it has to be a comet. Only a comet could do what the star does. Okay, now I'm guessing that before this whole thing, you didn't know much about comments. Well, I had been reading a little bit about it as part of a broader reading about comets. and everything, the remarkable thing, and this stands independent of this. Yes, but well, as part of this and independent of this,

as part of what I, everything I find, and this actually remains true for four years. Every single thing I find out about comments fit perfectly. You've been listening to the Eric Mataxis show, more of my Socrates in the city, Oxford conversation with Dr. Colin Nicol coming up next.