The Eric Metaxas Show - CRT Panel Discussion

Episode Date: July 8, 2021

Biblical Justice vs. Social Justice is discussed by a panel comprised of Voddie Baucham, Charlie Kirk, and Eric Metaxas, and moderated by Owen Strachan at the National Religious Broadcasters convention.

to the Eric Mettaxas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. We're going to play for you a really fascinating conversation that I had about a week ago at the N.RB in Dallas. It was about critical race theory and social justice and biblical justice, and it was extremely informative. A lot of people praised it and I said, we've got to put it on the program. So it's a panel I did with Vody Balcombe Jr. and Charlie Kirk and the moderator's Owen Strawn. Here it is. Thank you all for being here. My name is Owen Strand. I have a new book coming out with Salem called Christianity and Wokeness, and I'll be signing a few of those after the panel. I'm a provost and professor of theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas.

So that's what I do to pay the bills on a daily basis and longtime supporter of Salem. So thankful for Ed Atzinger and Stu Epperson, Rich Riddle, and so many others who have done heroic work and the public square and beyond to strengthen so many. So it's a joy to be the host and moderator of this panel. I have quite a task ahead of me because the three gentlemen joining me are all very gifted and will have much to say on the subject of biblical justice and social justice. The first person I'd like to welcome is Voddy Bakum. Voddy Bakum is the dean, yes. Thank you. He is the dean of theology at African Christian University in Zambi. and a prolific author just published the book, Fault Lines with Salem Books, a bestseller,

and man, such an important voice. So thank you for being here on the panel. My pleasure. All right. Next up, we have Charlie Kirk. Join me in welcoming Charlie Kirk to the stage. Charlie is the founder of Turning Point USA, which has played such an important role in especially winning over many millennials and younger people to the conservative cause.

If he ever does a rap CD, he could call himself Young Buckley, maybe. So we're thankful to have Charlie on the panel, and he's also, of course, a Salem Radio Network host with the Charlie Kirk show. And last but not least, Eric Mataxis, join me in welcoming Eric Mataxis to the stage. Eric, of course, is the host of the Eric Mataxis show, best-selling author of Bonhofer and numerous books, famous, of course, for throwing down right in front of President Obama some years ago about the need to be pro-life, just a glorious public moment and a very important figure in the public square. So, gentlemen, welcome to the panel. Thank you for being here. And let's dive in. We're talking about biblical justice and social justice. And to kick it off, I want to ask you about your personal

engagement with these subjects. But first, Vody, if you could give us a working, definitely, definition of each, of the distinction between social justice and biblical justice. Social justice is distributive justice. It's redistributive justice. It's based on the idea of equity, not equality, but equity, equal outcomes. So social justice is about distributing resources within a given community, culture, whatever, so that the various groups, within that culture don't have disparate outcomes. Biblical justice, on the other hand, is about applying the righteous standard of God equally to all people in all circumstances. Thank you. Thank you. That's very helpful. They use a lot of the same terms, those who promote

social justice, and yet there are distinct differences. Charlie, when did you first see these issues cropping up on campuses among younger folks or whoever in the culture and start to realize we need to make some distinctions here. Yeah, thank you and honored to be here and thank you to Salem. We've had a fun a couple months working together and we're going to have a lot more. So Phil and Dave and the whole Salem team, it's been great. I also want to say Vody, you're our secret weapon, man. I'm telling you. We need you in front of millions and millions and more people. We're going to make sure that happens. It's so important what you're doing. Super quick.

I started, as soon as I got involved with the campuses, I realized this idea of social justice is the religion of most of secular America. And the most succinct way, I think I can describe it, is social justice is always changing, and biblical justice never changes. And it's one of the world and one of the word. It's completely different.

and social justice will always lead you to an arc and a bend of totalitarianism because there is no root, there is no anchor, there is no unchanging truth that guides you, therefore it's completely and totally relativistic based on the communicator's passions, the needs, wants, and desires of the audience, or even worse, how treacherous or deceitful the people that are using whatever power they have to try to enforce that social justice. This is a tricky subject for a lot of Christians, and it's very front and center in the church because they use our desire and our heart and our yearning to help the less fortunate as a way to try and

to try and overtake power structures to then actually deconstruct the sort of civilization that we know. And they're using it through kind of the most vulnerable way imaginable, which is Americans' inability to understand or communicate about race. and this is where Vody comes in in such a helpful way. We've all talked about this, and they use the most effective tool imaginable, which is they call you a racist and they think you're going to shut up. And so I'll stop there, but that's kind of where I started encountering. That's very important. We'll come back to that theme of how the card that is really dropped on the table

is that of racist, if you even dare oppose critical race theory, wokeness intersectionality. Eric, how did you start to see these issues, these subjects, crop up? When did this first catch your attention? Well, probably when I was an undergraduate at Yale in the early 1980s. Oh, I know I look young, but I was there. And the fact is that I grew up in a working class home in Danbury, Connecticut. My mom and dad are European immigrants.

My mom came from Germany, which became East Germany. So she was under Stalinist communism. was so grieved by it that she escaped East Germany at age 17. My father was in Greece when the communist tried to take over that country following World War II. So my parents, without even trying very hard, raised me to hate communism and understand it is evil. So when I got to Yale, I was astonished suddenly to be around the cultural elites who were basically anti-American, anti-Christian. And it's when I first began smelling this stuff. But I was too young and naive to really understand how bad it was. And in my book, which was flashed on the screen, published by

Salem Books, because he'll publish anything, I have to say, that's only half a joke, because a lot of other people won't publish some good stuff. And that's, redounds to the benefit of Salem. Praise the Lord. Thank you for your courage in publishing truth when a lot of people are cowards. But I guess I first noticed it then, and it's the same thing. We understand what it is. It's cultural Marxism. And if we want to just really go even, be more clear, if we want to distill it. It is an anti-biblical, anti-God worldview. The social justice is just one excrescence, you know, one blister. It is just another way of expressing the same kind of thing. It's a deep philosophy, as Charlie said, it is a religion. It is evil. And like all things

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then you're oppressed. And as you alluded to, this has been seen in numerous countries over the years. It's not new. Voddy, when did you first start seeing this crop up and start engaging it? I started really talking about these things, I guess, in 2004, 2005, I became aware really of the influence of Gramsian Marxism and the Frankfurt School. And, you know, during that time, 0405, 06, you know, people kind of looked at you and crossed their eyes when you mentioned these kinds of things.

But then in 2008, during the election, when Obama's pension toward Marxism, you know, became public, people started to pay a little more attention by then. And now this is just more of a progression of the influence of those same ideologies, but just with different manifestations. And I would also say that, you know, this oppressor oppressed paradigm, it's not just about black and white. In America, it's about black and white. But having lived as an expat for the last six years overseas,

when you look at this globally, whereas in America, the oppressor is white people, white males, also white male Christians, but globally the oppressor is America. And so internationally, people, you know, here, you say to a white person, you need to check your privilege globally and internationally, people say to America, you need to check your privilege.

And what's going on at the border has a lot to do with that as well. Because this is about these people who need to check their privilege, America, lowering their borders, so that we can redistribute among people who haven't had the privilege to be here. That's important. What do you three see as the ultimate vision of social justice? I find it rather fuzzy in a lot of places, and yet I think there is a vision behind all this movement. How would you point us? I think there's probably three different ways you can answer that. And they all agree on the problem, the diagnosis, and the revolution. This is the question I get all the time.

Charlie, what do these people want? And the first category are people that actually think they're going to usher in a utopia. These are the useful idiots. These are your typical college students. They really believe that there's a way to eradicate private property. And this is what really has frustrated me with the church, is this whole thing centers on who are we as human beings? Are we nothing more than a collection of randomness or cells?

Or are we the speaking beings, as Aristotle would say? Are we made the image of God? And are we broken by nature? We need Christ to save us. That's a really important argument when you try to design a political system. When you try to design a political system and you understand that human beings are naturally likely to sin, then you're going to create a system that hopefully doesn't allow them to collectivize that sin

and then destroy the kind of vocal minority, which is what the founding fathers did. They think that any problem in the world is because of the system. not because of human beings. That's a really important point. If you go and ask college class, do you think human beings are naturally good or naturally bad, they think human beings are naturally good? That's where this whole kind of argument centers. So that's number one. It's the utopian types. Number two are the folks that quite honestly are nihilists. This is Nietzsche in its fullest possible in brightest colors. They are driven not by an end result, but instead by the passion and the

enjoyment of watching systems burn down to the ground. This is something. something that is more prevalent than you might ever possibly imagine, especially amongst young people that are 18, 19, and 20 years old that have been taught that there is no beauty, there is no truth, there is no goodness, there is no wonder, so all there is is you that can possibly try to bring down the world down around you. This is best personified in a 15-second clip in one of the Batman movies where the Joker says some people just want to watch the world burn. That's exactly right. That is a portion of the activist base. The third part is honestly the most scary and this is where this is heading, which is the bend towards totalitarianism.

What happens when you have these massive movements is eventually they're going to splinter, they're going to fight, there will be chaos, they'll be disorder, and then a sociopathic narcissist is going to be able to charm them to give all of that collective power to one person or a small group of people, and then we're going to live under that form of totalitarianism or tyranny. This almost always leads to a smaller and smaller group of people controlling more where the people that thought they were actually going to have the power end up not having the power. And so I think it's somewhat useful to talk about those three different things, but they won't even be able to agree that amongst themselves.

What they can agree, though, is what currently generally exists is a cancer and a poison, and what they want to do is they want to put forward a chemotherapy type of shock and all blitzkrieg on the American Republic and on Christianity, and they don't care the cost. They just want it gone. comes next, they'll figure out once we are no longer in power, because that's all they, that's all they say is true. What? I'm sorry, what?

Did that make any sense? Oh, it made some sense. Thanks, Eric. You know, honestly, I forgot the question. What was the question? The question is who is... Who's idea was it to do a 7 a.m. breakfast? And why is he's still among the living?

The question is... Phil? Was it you, Phil? Who is the best blazer? Oh, up here. I think voting. I think there's no question about it. There's no question about it. The people are smoking.

I'm not kidding. I don't remember the question. The question is, where is this all headed? Oh, I'm sorry. I do remember the question. You know, it's important for us to understand, and this is what we're talking about here, what this is. What this is, you know, we have to kind of cut to the chase. What is this?

It is a view utterly antithetical to Scripture. And we've seen it since the Garden. And you've seen it in the French Revolution. We saw it at the Tower of Babel. When men try to exalt themselves above God, or when they try to reach God in their own strength, it is a satanic project. Buckley always quoted somebody talking about imminent,

the Eschaton. I want heaven now. I don't want to go through the cross. That's stupid. I can do it. Let's do it. It is designed by reality itself, which God created to fail. It cannot succeed. But because we're living in a fallen and broken universe, we are designed to do this in our brokenness. And apart from Jesus, this is what people do, right? People talk about what do sinners do? They sin. That's what they do. And you can't really blame them, apart from God's grace, that's what we do. And so it's only because God has inserted himself into history that we have the ability at times to do other things. And the United States of America is the time when in the history of the universe, human beings were able to take a biblical worldview and say, oh yes, we are fallen, so we need as many checks and balances as we

can. We don't want power to be centralized at all. And they set that up. And then they said, And yet, because we believe that with God we are capable of great things, we will have this free market of ideas, economic free market. And if we can keep it, if we can keep the Republic, that will flourish. But apart from God, it won't flourish. So what we're seeing, of course, is just another version of the anti-God philosophy. But if you look back in my Bonhofer book at one point, I talk about a place called Bielefeld, which was a...

really a ministry place where people were ministering to handicapped people and schizophrenics and all kinds of people that the Nazis would say should be terminated. And at the end of the day, you get those two views. One says it's Nietzsche, it is satanic, it says that if you can't produce, if you can't do what we need you to do, you're worthless. You have no intrinsic value. God doesn't exist, therefore you're not sacred. you're not made in his image. And that's basically it. And you see that more and more.

And obviously, to the extent that people can sell that, they will sell it. And there are times in culture when the Christian faith is strong or when there are other forces that are partaking of the good, the true, and the beautiful, they're strong. And you're not able to get away with that. So in America, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, you can only say so much. But as those forces wane, these forces come out of the closet, and just as Hitler was able to say things in 39 and 40 that he wouldn't dare say in 34, you're seeing people say increasingly absurd things. And so when you talk about what is the goal, I think it is really clear that some people, yeah, they're stupid enough to think you could build a utopia.

Other people don't care. They want to burn it all down. But the bottom line is we know where it goes. where it goes, ultimately, is to the death camps. Those who disagree with the satanic power have to be destroyed. They have no intrinsic value. And so it's really like everybody's taking a ride on the zeitgeist. And if you're not willing to go wherever that's going to take you, you need to die.

You know, you're just using up fuel. And so we do need to understand. It really boils down to two views. There's the kingdom of God and there's this stuff. And I think we need to understand that the people who are foolish enough or lost enough to be going along with that, you know, they're destroying themselves. And so I think it's really tempting to think of them as enemies. The enemy is the enemy because this really is a satanic project. And we have to be very clear that the two views have increasingly become clear.

It strikes me in the context of Christianity, the church, that especially among my generation and younger, the phrase neither left nor right has become very popular when it comes third way. It's become very popular in evangelical circles to describe basically our political philosophy. We're about Jesus, as indeed all three of us are. so that's good in my view. And yet this, oh, we're not of the left and we're not of the right, we just sort of keep our hands clean. There's no mud on our boots in the public square, and there's not supposed to be. Keep them lily white and pristine.

And I think that has had a real effect with regard to some. Why it's got to be white, man. We can't have black boots or brown boots. All got to have white boots, man. Yeah, yeah. Racial, man. Yeah, what he said. I was actually mocking them.

I was trying to make fun of their white boots, but we are in Texas, so there's lots of boots. This neither left nor right philosophy, though, I think it's deadly, and I think it causes, especially younger people, to think, I don't need to even get my hands dirty at all

in the public square. What would you men say in response to that kind of line? I think one of the things that drives young people to that is their unwillingness, to be confrontational. I've often said, you know, there is an 11th commandment. The 11th commandment is thou shalt be nice, and we don't believe the other ten.

And what these people are trying to do is avoid having to confront ideas that oppose them and to avoid debate, I mean, like real debate and real disagreement and discussion. We don't want that. We recoil from them. that. And one of the ways that you get around that is to not believe anything, to not stand for anything, just to say, I'm not that and I'm not that, right? Because if I'm one of those things,

then I'll have to suffer the, you know, slings and arrows that come from the other side. And I don't want to be about combat. I don't want to be about confrontation, which is one of the reasons that we hate masculinity. There is a war. on masculinity right now. And all of it boils down to this same issue of, thou shalt be nice. And we don't think masculinity is nice. Yeah, the third way, in the Christian circles,

it's really puzzling to me. So obviously I spend most of my time in the political world as a Christian, and I'm starting to do more and more things. And the Christian world spoke it over 70 churches in the last year. I'm really shocked at how many young Christians. how weak they are. And just they have very little direction or purpose. They don't want to have any sort of confrontational conversations.

It says in Isaiah 1, let us reason together. But if you go back to the ancient Hebrew, it's let us debate together. Let's talk about this stuff. Let's show me your ideas. Well, I want the third way. So you're trying to say, you don't take stances on moral issues? Is that the new position of the skinny gene Christianity? No offense, Eric, because those are nice things.

Great. So, is it, yeah, you'll get me back, I know. I guess. And so, look, Christ was 100% grace and 100% truth. And if all of a sudden we're not going to be clear about what the scriptures tell us and how to govern ourselves and how to live, then it really gets back to the true problem, which is watered down theology. And that is really what's going on here.

And I've had the opportunity to dig. into this a fair amount, I'm by no means an expert, but when it comes down to a lot of these Christians, if you really get down to it, all of a sudden they'll say, oh yeah, it's an allegory. Ah, okay. So it's not the Word of God.

It's a suggestion manual, or it's a place of good stories. Now I get where we're coming from here. This is not the authority. It's part of your bibliography of your worldview. Because Christianity's not nice. That's right. And so, those 66 books that we call.

Hello. Okay, well, there we go. Hello? Hello? Hello? We've lost the panel. It really comes down to what is the Bible. Is the Bible a book that is of comparable moral claim as Aristotle's ethics

or Robin DiAngelo's white fragility or is it the Word of God? Is it something as it says in 1st Peter that was given to us divinely that we must pour into and it has an imprint on our heart. That's really what's going on here. And if we're, if we're having a political discussion and they say they want the third way, then they're picking and choosing from the Bible, like a buffet line that makes them feel good, that actually doesn't say true things about our faith and about what we're supposed to do as Christians. Part of the reason that this is happening is because, this is always, it goes down to bad theology, right? megachurch pastors or whoever out there overfocused on evangelism.

Now, it's bad to underfocus on evangelism, but if you act as though getting people saved as the only thing we're here on earth to do, you're an idiot. You're not reading the scripture. The fact of the matter is that if you overfocus on evangelism, what happens is you make people think, I cannot say anything ever unless it might help lead somebody to faith. and if I say anything controversial or that they might disagree with, that's bad for the witness. And I was hamstrung in that position for years myself. I just thought I've got to be careful.

I don't want to be political because it's all about, you know, getting them safe, getting them safe, getting them safe. Well, at the end of the day, you have to trust truth. And you have to trust that if I speak the truth, I am speaking God. And I think we all have to understand. We've all seen idiots who drive people. away from Jesus and I'm looking at you Jack Graham. So that's my love language. Now he knows I love him more than any of you.

The culture lifts this up as a boogeyman that, oh, you don't want to be that guy who's driving people away. He's the religious fanatic, right? Well, now we have the opposite thing. The guy who's so nice, who he's afraid to talk about truth. And this is a particularly American issue. Bonhofer, when he came to America in 1930, was kind of scandalized how everybody at Union Theological Seminary, which was woke 90 years ago, that everybody wanted to get along and get along. And he was like, well, what about truth?

Because the Germans, you know, they don't have a problem with that. But America's, we want to be nice. We want to be nice. So every culture is uniquely blessed by God, but every culture has unique issues and possibilities of going wrong. And our problem in Erica is this wanting to be nice. And so when you wrap that together with this desire to get everybody saved, you tell people, don't get into politics, don't get into this, don't get into that. And it's the same old thing.

Look, Wilberforce heard this, okay? Wilberforce said, slavery is an abomination from the pit of hell, and it is my duty as a human being and as a believer to talk about it. And many people said to him, keep your faith private, okay? so they didn't even like him. But the point is, anytime these truth claims come up, it's divisive, it's this, it's that. But if you are an African slave,

what would you want the Christians to talk about? Would you want them to talk that slavery is bad? Yes, you would say if you're any kind of a Christian, you better talk about that. You better, if you're a Jew and a box car going to Treblinka, you're thinking, I hope there's some Christians out there who'll be combative and speak out against the Nazi worldview. But there were Germans, Christians in Germany, saying it's only about evangelism.

We don't want to bring up that divisive stuff. Romans 13. Hitler's appointed by God. Even if he's doing bad stuff, we can't speak against it. There's just a concatenation of confusing ideas all building up into wherever you are in a given culture. But we have had plenty warnings before. We've seen it before when Christians say, I don't want to be divisive. And I'm going to tell you, a lot of good German Christians said that.

And they said, if we talk about this, we talk about that, it'll dampen our witness. Well, my attitude is your witness can go to hell and your fake evangelism to a fake gospel can go to hell. If you are not willing to stick up for the unborn or truth or whatever it is, your Christianity is worthless to the people you claim to want to lead. and you're the blind leading the blind. And the church needs to understand. It's not a choice between do I want to lead people to Jesus or do I want to talk about truth. If you don't understand those two things or one,

you know, you're already lost. Amen. And, you know, I would just say to bring these things together, this is about a poor theology because you have a problem with divisiveness if you believe that unity depends on us if you believe that we have to do the work of reconciling us to one another. And so one of the things is we're not holding those two halves of Ephesians two together. That first half where Christ

through his death on the cross, right, reconciles us with God, reconciles lost dead sinners to God. But in the second half, he reconciles lost dead sinners to one another. The cross reconciles us vertically and horizontally. And what many Christians believe is, sure, the cross may reconcile us to God, but it is insufficient to reconcile us to one another. So we have to make sure that we don't mess that up. When the fact of the matter is, if you believe you can mess up what Christ accomplished on the cross, then you don't believe Christ accomplished it on the cross.

And that's one of the main differences between biblical justice and social justice. You look to the justice of the cross to find. divine justice and divine mercy flowing out of that, but there's no such grace, mercy, there's no mercy in social justice. There's no love, really, in social justice. I want to switch tracks, though, here in your book, Fault Lines, my book, Christianity and Wokeness, we both talk about intersectionality, which is the idea, basically, that the interests of... Is it, by the way, is there a new rule now that the two of us can't be in the same place at the same time after this since we've, yeah.

It's a dangerous proposition. So intersectionality is the idea that the interests of underprivileged groups intersect. So women have been kept down by men, sexual minorities have been kept down by straight people, disabled people have been deprivaled by able-bodied people, et cetera, and so on. And foreigners by the native-born. Foreigners by the Native-born. Non-Christians, by Christians. It's very important for people to understand that in the world of critical social justice,

it's not just the white person that's the problem or the white male that's the problem. It's the white male, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied, native-born. And if you keep going down the list, you get to Christian. And if you read the literature, the critical social justice literature, ultimately you realize that Christianity is, seen as an oppressive hegemonic power. So one of those intersections where people, you know, pile up their oppression is if they are not Christian or if they are not Orthodox in their Christianity as well. That's exactly right. So let's go to the LGBT project and its advancement

just for a minute here, Vody. We've heard in recent years that sexual minorities need to be elevated and platform. They've been oppressed. Even in the Southern Baptist Convention now, this isn't exactly the same thing. But we've heard two consecutive presidents of the SBC, J.D. Greer and Ed Litton, say basically that scripture whispers about sexual sin, which I think is tied into this whole embrace and softening around this issue. I'd love to hear you respond to the claim, scripture whispers about sexual sin. What would you say to that? First of all, that's a lie. But secondly, even if it was true, we need to think about it like I used to think about my mama. I could be out playing with my friends in the streets. And if I thought

I heard my mama whisper my name, I'd go home just to make sure, right? So even if it was true that God whispers about that, listen to the whisper. But that's not what they mean. When they say this, what they're trying to say is that God doesn't speak to this at all. Because even if you believe he speaks to it in a whisper, that should be enough. And Charlie, I want to switch tracks to our children. They're being taught in public schools, in colleges, and universities, basically to hate America.

Because, as Vody talked about just a minute ago, America is a white supremacist, heteronormative, capitalist, public order that is infested with sin, right, in a structural way. So what we saw with Antifa and BLM last summer, I don't think it was just being locked down in a terrible way. I think it was also lots of people thinking they were doing something righteous, in destroying this public order. How should we think about our children

and how they're being educated today to basically despise authority, the public order that God has made, and America itself? Yeah, and this is sort of a sweet spot of what we do every day at turning point. And so to be as blunt as possible, if we don't radically change the way we do higher education

in our country, we will not have a nation in 15 years. It's really that simple. And so we have way too many kids going to college, way too many, probably 50% too many. We have a generation of young people that are... Would you just back that one up? Yeah. Because I think some people, like, didn't catch what you just said.

And it's incredibly important. Okay. Would you... Okay. We have way too many people going to college in America. Explain that. So yeah, we have an entire industry designed towards trying to capture high school seniors, putting them through a debt cycle to borrow money that they don't have,

obviously because they're borrowing money, to study things that don't matter, to find jobs that don't exist, to colleges that would otherwise go under and be financially bankrupt if it wasn't for the subsidy of the federal government. Most of what they're studying, they don't even find jobs in those majors when they graduate, by getting them in these environments that is basically the new Sodom and Gomorrah, where sexual degeneracy is platformed and glamorized, where dorm rooms of male and females are next to each other,

where bad ideas are incubated and given a platform, they are then exposed to evangelistic nihilism, anti-American thought, and we're supposed to believe this is some sort of right of passage. It's mostly and mainly, and then I'm going to offend most of the people in the room, it's mostly and mainly parents' fault because they have this idea that their kid needs to go to college because they don't want to tell their friends that their

child's become a plumber, and they don't want their kid to become a carpenter or work construction, because that would be the worst thing, right? They'd rather have their kid become, you know, a nihilistic, screwed up Marxist, than actually have to go work HVAC for a living, right? It's true. And so because of that, we have this cycle of mainly tied together, of this public pressure, this idea that you have to go to college to succeed. And let me just talk about, some of the numbers really quickly. 59% of kids that go to college graduate. 41% of the kids that go to college drop out.

41% of the kids that go to college drop out. 41%. They exit with debt, a damaged self-esteem and confidence, very little to no direction, and they make perfect revolutionaries for the future because they're in this kind of financial purgatory. And the ones that do graduate, we send them to inner cities to go rent, not own.

When you don't own anything, you're far less likely to want to conserve anything. And then we tell them, whatever you do, don't get married, don't have kids, go become a cog in the corporate machine, and then they become early 30-something people earning $120,000 a year, not accumulating really any of that capital, by the way, because they're spending it, spending it, spending it on short-term gratification or rental expenses, and we wonder why all of a sudden they want to uproot the entire system. They have nothing worth, they have nothing they want to conserve. They don't own anything.

They're not paying a principal of any mortgage. They don't have kids. They're not married. and all of that originates at this one cultural institution that we have wrongly platformed in America, which is higher education. There are some great colleges out there. Hillsdale is one of them.

Eric, you and I have done some work at Liberty. There's some great schools. They're in the vast 1% of 1% in the nation. And by the way, you want to talk about where this is at its worst? Go to the seminaries across America. Holy moly. Go to Hope College. Go to Wheaton.

And you want to see all these ideas being institutionalized to the pastors of tomorrow. It is worse than ever before.