The Eric Metaxas Show - David Bahnsen

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Financial expert David Bahnsen shares thoughts on the purpose of work and introduces his new book: Full-Time: Work and the Meaning of Life.

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. It's a nutritious smoothie of creamy, fresh yogurt, vanilla, vanilla, protein powder, and a mushy banana. For your mind? Drink it all down. It's nummy.

I wub, vanilla. I wub, I wub, vanilla. Here comes Eric Metaxus. Hey, folks, welcome to Monday. We all got through the weekend together and separately, both. I want to say that today we've got two special guests. Number one, Jeremy Stallnecker. He is the co-founder with Chad Robes Show of the Mighty Oaks Foundation.

These are heroes, absolute heroes, veterans who, care about veterans. We'll hear from Jeremy today. He has a new bookout, huge suicide among veterans. It's such a scandal. When you hear these statistics, it's almost like, it's unbelievable. Every time I hear them, I'm like, there's no way that's true. And it's horrifying to find out that these are accurate. Yeah, this should be on the front page of the New York Times. If they cared about America, they would be writing about this or if they cared about veterans. It's unbelievable. We also have David Bonson, who he's been on the program many times before.

I knew of him through the King's College. He was on their board. And he is somebody that gives us a Christian view of work. This is very important to me. So we're going to have a conversation with him. He's got a new book out called Full Time, as opposed to halftime, full time. You'll see. I'll ask him about it.

it. But we're talking to David Bonson today about work. You're talking to Jeremy Stalnecker about our veterans and suicide epidemic, horrifying and what we can do about it. The thing I'll say about David Bonson, by the way, is he, I don't know, is Bonson a German name, like German work ethic? Is that maybe, yeah, like, he definitely fits that bill. And when you hear him talk about work, you kind of like, you sit up a little straighter. like he's got some old school energy that should that should not be missed by our listeners.

He's quite, he's quite compelling. Yes, yes. Okay, so David Bonson, Jeremy Stonle-Licker, now that's today. Now, what else am I doing today, folks? Today, I don't know how I'm going to get through it, but I am taping two sessions of Socrates in the studio. Some of you've heard about this. If you go to Socrates in the city, you can sign up for Socrates.

Plus, we're doing more and more. more Socrates in the studio sessions. So today I'm filming two of them. If you are a member of Socrates plus, you can watch the live stream. You can watch it live while I do these interviews. Also this week, I'm going to be in Philadelphia. And I'm going to be filming an episode, a new episode, because we've got one in the can. We've already put it out there. A gentleman's guide to New York. That's available. If you've signed up for Socrates Plus, you can watch it. Maybe you've already watched it. We'd love to hear your opinions of what you like and don't like. But we're filming a new one. It's a gentleman's guide to Philadelphia. So this week, I will be in Philadelphia.

I'm going to be running up the steps to the art museum with the music from Rocky behind me, swelling behind me. We're actually doing this. that's part of it. I can't tell you the rest of what we're doing. Are you going to try to finally fix the crack in the Liberty Bell? Because someone needs to fix that. Consider it fixed. I'm on it. I'm going to pray over it. I'm going to pray over it and see if God wants to heal it. But actually, that's happening this week. We're filming that this week, a gentleman's guide

to Philadelphia. So this is our second one. The gentleman's guides, it's very quirky and fun. and I hope when you sign up for Socrates Plus, that you check it out and tell us what you think. I really, I'd love to get feedback from people. It's kind of fun for me when I hear, you know, what you like, what you don't like, whatever. And we're going to be posting stuff on Instagram, little clips and stuff. So I also want to say that we've launched Letter to the American Church. Chris, you're a producer on Letters to the American Church.

That's true. It's true. And you, have you ever produced a film before? This is my first film. I think that I've produced, actual feature-length film. A lot of what goes into producing is picking up your call that seems to be your phone that seems to be calling all the time and then answering it and having conversations with people.

And you do that a thousand times and then a movie's done. Suddenly the movie's done. Suddenly, the movie's done. Suddenly after a thousand phone calls. Well, Suzanne, my wife, is also a producer on the film. And when people watch the film, they will see in the beginning. First of all, the credits are beautiful. Like, the whole film is beautiful. It's so beautifully done.

But when you watch it, you'll see the names Boops as producers, produced by Suzanne Attacks as Chris Himes. And that's when Margaret Sanger's face pops up. And I was like, man, what a diss you into Suzanne that you're named on the screen. when Margaret Sanger's face is on the screen. Yeah. That's cold. That's some cold. I know.

I wish we had had some extra money. We could have animated her mouth to try to, you know, bite our names. But we didn't have that in the budget. That's sick, Chris. That's why I like you. So, yeah. Letter of the American Church is out. We want to continue to exhort you to join the movement.

Letter of the American Church.com. There is so much there. You can buy the DVD. you can get the book and the study guide. I want to encourage people. I mean, there's so many things you can do. When you go to letter to the American church.com, you can actually see there's a list of things you can do.

But what's not listed there is sharing the website on social media to get other people involved. Because we want to, there's so many people that don't know anything about this. So if you would just on social media share letter to the American church.com, put it out there, number one. Number two, ask for a free screening at your church. I mean, this is amazing that we're offering free screenings at churches, absolutely free because we want to get the word out. And I say it, and I'll keep saying it,

if your church is not interested in a free screening, and you can sign up at letter to the American church.com, all the information is there to get a free screening free. You could do it in a theater. You can do wherever, but it's got to be a church that's doing it. it, right? But if your church is not interested in this, I have to ask you, why are you interested in this church? What is it about your church? I mean, do you realize, folks, that that's kind of the point of the film and the book letter to the American church is to wake us up to the idea that

maybe we're being complicit with evil. We're not aware of it. Obviously, you know, if you're a good person, you go to church, you don't want to be complicit with evil. But what if you find out that there were many good German Christians who ended up being complicit with evil. But at the time, they didn't realize it. They actually thought, no, no, no, we're fine. That's the whole point of the book and the film is to make people understand you're not fine. You're sleepwalking. You're doing church.

Meanwhile, evil is rising. And God is trying to get his people to speak out and to do something about it and to understand that we're supposed to be part of the solution. We're not supposed to be playing church. So I want to ask you to go to letter to the American church.com and get involved. Sign your church up, spread the message. Another thing we keep talking about is, you know, if you want to do a small group study in your church, we have study guides available.

You can get the study guide. And you can do a small group study. I think if you do a small group study in your church, you're going out of that naturally is going to arise, hey, here's what we want to do in our community. Here are the things that we can do to get involved. I think, you know, talking in a small group oftentimes leads to action. So that's why we created the study guide for letter to the American church. And before we go to our guests, David Bonson and Jeremy Stolniker, I should reiterate that the book, Letter to the American Church, all of my books, but now Letter of the American Church is available at my store.com. That's Mike Lindelendez.

my store.com, of course, my pillow.com as well. If you use the code Eric, you get a good discount. You get a really great discount on some of my books at my store.com if you use the code Eric. But if you go to Mypillow.com, use the code Eric. Help support the program. We need your help. But the announcement is that almost all of my books are available at MyStore.com with the discount code Eric. And now Letter to the American Church is available at MyStore.com. So if you want to buy it there and help out Mike Lindell, help out this program, use the code Eric. Letter to the American Church is available at my store.com. Get involved.

Be a part of being the solution. We'll be right back. God bless you. For 10 years, Patriot Mobile has been America's only Christian conservative wireless provider. And when I say only, trust me, they're the only one. Glenn and the team have been great supporters of this show, which is why I am proud to part. partner with them. Patriot Mobile offers dependable nationwide coverage, giving you the ability to access all three major networks, which means you get the same coverage you've been accustomed to

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large, with a few clicks, visit legacy pminvestments.com to get started. You're going to love this free new tool they've added. LegacyPm Investments.com. Legacy pm. Investments.com. Check it out. Folks, welcome back. An old friend David Bonson is on the program. David, what do I say? How do I describe you? I've already introduced you previously, but you're, what are you, a financial wizard and a Christian? Well, the Christian part is easy. I can self-identify there, and there is no way you're going to get me to call myself a financial wizard, but I am passionate about finance, capital markets, and I believe Christians ignore finance to their own peril. Well, that's part of why you're on the program today.

I mean, you talk about money and finance and markets, you know, on TV in various places. You've written about it. You have a new book coming out, which fits into what you just said. The book is called Full Time, Brand New Book, Full Time, Work and the Meaning of Life. there has been a lot of bad theology over the decades and centuries with regard to work. My friend Oz Guinness has talked about this a lot. What led you, David, with your background to write a book called Full Time Work and the Meaning of Life? So it is connected to my background because I start with the belief that one of the reasons God has me here on Earth

is to do my very best in the decades I have left to try to implement, and teach and proclaim this idea of a more thoroughly Christian understanding of economics. And one of the applications out of a Christian understanding of economics is that God made us to produce, that economics starts with production. And the modern Keynesian secular idea that consumption drives economic growth is, first of all, preposterous. How do you get wealthy by consuming things? You get wealthy by producing. And but more important, importantly, this is theological. This is what God made us for. So out of the economic sort of thought process there, it occurred to me that this is why I care so deeply about work. I've been tired

of bad evangelical theology about work. I've been tired about a bad secular, cultural mood. I can't handle Eric watching one more movie about the guy who realizes he's working too much and feels guilty and he's going to quit his job so he can start spending more time. It is is kids soccer practice, it all needs to stop. And it's in the church and it's in the world. And I want us to reembrace a love affair of work. That is a, that's a controversial statement. I know what you mean by it, and I agree with you.

But I want to unpack that to use a cliche. Because what you just said is a cliche, right? This idea that like, I got to watch my kid play soccer. And there's always truth there, right? There's something there. people ought not to be workaholics, people ought not to find their identity and how much money they have or have made or clearly we get that. But sometimes I just find this all the time, like we get something and then we go too far with it. And it becomes the opposite kind of problem than the one that we were trying to avoid.

So talk about that, you know, when you, this disdain somehow for work. And actually, I'll tell you, it's even worse to me when people have disdain, not just for work, but for certain kinds of work, when they sneer at, you know, oh, you're a janitor or you mop floors. And I think what a, I mean, you talk about an unbiblical view. It's really just ugly. But where are you coming from when you make this case for the meaning of life and why work is valuable? I start with the belief that God made us. us to work, that this was his intent for us, that when God said, I believe mankind is very good

after he got done saying that the sun and the moon and the stars and the earth and the land and the seas and the animals and the plants were good, and we were very good. And he said, we were made in his image that what he was referring to was specifically what he said in the very next three verses, Genesis chapter 1, verse 26 to 28, that we were to be productive. The we were to cultivate the earth, steward it, bring creativity, build culture, build civilization. Only mankind was uniquely capable of doing that. Mankind can see beauty. Mankind can create beauty, but mankind can also create and innovate in the marketplace.

And now we call this work, we call it a job, but it was not out of the fall. It was not out of sin. It was out of creation. It was pre-sin, pre-fall. So I start with this very existential point. That's why we're here. God is a worker. He made us in his image to work.

I find this to be theologically profound and frankly beautiful. It gives us meaning and purpose in our lives. Your comment a moment ago, I think it's so fascinating when people will say that, look, yeah, I mean, I understand. I don't want to be workaholic, but we want to do a little bit of both. Let's balance it all together. But do people ever say, hey, be careful about the. the idol of soccer practice, be careful about the idol of your kids or the idol of your marriage. We just take for granted those are good things to overdo. But then we use the word workaholic

as a pejorative because obviously the word alcoholic is a pejorative. What is it, what other verses in the Bible that warn against working too much? Now, you brought up the money thing, right? I agree. The Bible warns us against idolizing mana over and over again. But see, this is one thing I love about Tim Keller's book, Counterfeit Gods. We can have all kinds of counterfeit gods. It isn't just money. People do make their marriages or their children or their church or different stations in life, a false idol. All of those things are wrong. But the only one that pulpits and pastors seem to go after is somebody working too hard. And I'm tired of it. It's just music to my ears to hear you say this stuff. We need pushback on this because look, I mean, I talk about this a lot too. Anything can be an idol, right? So every good thing can be an idol. So you have a lot of bad theology.

I mean, it's kind of when people give you the false choice and they say like, are you member of the kingdom of God or are you an American? You've got to choose. It's like, no, no. I don't have to choose. I can love my country and be a proud American and I can love God. Now, if I make an idol of patriotism or my country, that's bad. But it's bad when I make an idol of anything, including my love of my children or my family,

because there are people, David, let's be clear, there are people. Their whole identity is in their family on a level where it begins to be sick. And just like you said, we don't talk about that. We only talk about, you know, that guy's working so hard. He doesn't care about his kids' soccer practice. And I guess maybe because I grew up in a working class home, when I think of the sacrifice, my father made a commuting an hour and a half to a job that he didn't like to pay the bills to raise me and my kid. That to me is so beautiful that I will honor him until the day I die because of that sacrifice. And so to kind of denigrate that, like, oh, I wish he had taken a, you know, I don't know what, a less a job near home so he could watch me play baseball or something.

I mean, I get that idea, but it's really a denigration of something that in many cases can be beautiful and noble and even holy as you're describing it. Work ought not to be denigrated so cavalierly as it is from so many pulpits. And one of the reasons for that is that the work itself matters to God. Not only was your dad making a sacrifice for you, caring for your family, but whatever he was doing, you mentioned a blue collar upbringing. and previously the janitor, right? I travel a lot. I stay in hotels, and I always think about the maids

that have to go in and clean these rooms. It's horrifying to think about some of the stuff they must encounter. And I try to tip really big in hotels because I feel so much for these folks. They're often immigrants. They're often female, but either way, they're just working so hard.

It doesn't seem like a very rewarding job. But you know what they're doing? They are producing goods and services. that meet the needs of humanity. And God cares about that work because God cares about that worker. And there is inerent and intrinsic value in the work. And what the Christian church decided to do

in its response to modernism and humanism over 100 years ago is start making up pragmatic benefits of work like that you can support your family or like that you're obedient by, you know, feeding your children, and then getting into the church pietism of, well, actually, now you can support the building fund and the missions fund. All of those things are good, Eric. I believe all of that's wonderful. But that is not the purpose of the work. The purpose of the work is producing goods and services that meet the needs of

humanity. We are participants in a market economy, and nobody will pay us. Nobody will pay us a dollar unless we're adding value into somebody's life. God cares about that work. He cares about technology and medicine and media and finance. And I don't believe that that's what the message from the church has been. We reduce it to what I call Great Commission utilitarianism. That, well, you know, maybe if you flourish in your job, other souls may get saved.

There's things like that. As opposed to someone just saying, I love Dorothy Sayers' line in the 1940s. We try to preach a sermon to make sure the carpenter doesn't go to work drunk or that he shows up for church Sunday. And maybe we should preach a sermon that he built a good table. I tell you, this is, I mean, you already know this because we know each other. This is right up my alley. What you're saying is so important.

We'll be right back. The book is full-time work and the meaning of life. David Bonson is my guest. I have done all. Tell me why Relief Factor is so successful at lowering or eliminating pain. I'm often asked that question just the other night. I was asked that question. Well, the owners of Relief Factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal.

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again, Neutrametics, N-U-T-R-A-M-E-D-I-X.com. Neutrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. Welcome back talking to David Bonson about the book, the new book, full-time, work and the meaning of life. Dave, you just said something. In my book, Letter of the American Church, I have a chapter called The Idol of Evangelism. And it really, it's something I've seen over the years. You just referenced it, this really reductionist idea that the only thing that matters is saving souls. that is a lie. And all lies are by definition from the pit of hell. It's a lie. And there's always

truth in every lie. There's never a pure lie. So evangelism is important. But the idea that nothing else really matters is a twisting of the biblical view. Because you just said it. God makes it clear in the garden that we are to work that there's value in that. There's something beautiful in that. And there are people who think like, well, okay, you work at some job. But all, Ultimately, that doesn't matter at all. What matters is you're making some money, which you can use, quote, unquote, for God's purposes by giving to the church or using it for evangelistic purposes. And you think, what a utilitarian reductionist view?

You said utilitarian a moment ago. But it's a really ugly thing, the message that that sends to people. It's truncated. It's a truncated gospel. You know what religion doesn't do a truncation of their belief system? Islam. And by the way, Christianity doesn't do it either. So we're guilty of a false Christianity when we truncate the gospel. And this is a byproduct of, I said before the break about the last hundred years, the response to modernism, Darwinism, humanism has been to retreat from the

public square. We saw this in our politics, okay? But we can just put that aside. I think a lot of people realize Christians got caught sleeping at the wheel in the public square. We lost Hollywood. We lost the arts, we lost Washington, D.C., but we also lost the marketplace. We lost the corner office, we lost the factories. And so my belief here is of all these institutions and all these fears in which Christians can have dominion and live out God's kingdom, which one has the most leverage for us to bring about the biggest impact? It's what we do all day long. It's what people do 40, 50, 60, 70 hours a week. Work. If I had to wave a wand and only pick one of those institutions or spheres of society to change, to generate the greatest impact, it would be Christians

regaining a view of dominion in their work. And that's why I wrote the book. Well, it is an extraordinary thing that, you know, you can go wrong in any direction. As we were saying before, we, you know, we throw around the term workaholic. But we don't, we don't talk about what is God's view of work and about the dignity of work. There's something beautiful about that and to denigrate it as though it's utilitarian as though the only point of working is to make money to do something with the money. You think, wow, what does that say about somebody's theology about the world? And I think I do talk about this a lot, that people have this other worldly theology, which is not biblical at all. The Lord wants us to live here, even as though, you

know, we're born again. So we're seated with him in heavenly places. We are already partaking of eternity here, but we're not in eternity fully yet. We're still here. And while we're here, he wants us to be fully here. And so the title of your book is work and the meaning of life. And so doing some kind of work, even when people talk about, I'm going to retire, I think what do you mean? You're going to, you're here for something. So even though you might, you know, be going to an office and getting a check, clearly you're here to do something. What is that something? So how does it tie into work and the meaning of life? Talk about the meaning of life as you see it in your book. Yeah, I agree with you, Theologically, and eschatologically, that we're not in the new heavens yet, we're here on Earth.

And that if you believe, theoretically, as all Christians do, that God's in the process of redeeming the earth back to himself and that it results on the other side of glory in a new heavens and new earth, then work is part of this redemption process too. But my question is, what do people think they're going to be doing in heaven? I mean, if heaven is a new city, a new Jerusalem that is restoring us to Edenic conditions, the garden before sin, when Adam and Eve working in the garden, were they naming the animals, where they tasked before sin with this cultivation, this growth agenda of dominion, I believe that our work is eternal. It's eternally significant. But when I say meaning of life, if we want to limit the time to time and space that we know, our time here on Earth, when people say, no, no, my purpose and I have to raise my godly kids.

And I say, okay, what are you raising them for? They go, well, for them to grow up and raise godly kids. I go, for them to grow up and raise godly kids. Like at some point, I hope some of these people are also working jobs and doing things in their life that produce this meaning and value. and when they say, well, I want them to work so they can just simply worship more. I go, good. Would you say Avada, the Hebrew word for worship? They go, yes, because that's what work is.

It's the same Hebrew word. Actually, I didn't know that. Holy cow. That's a big one. Wow. And so the chapter three in my book goes through the Hebrew prefix Avo that is literally translated in different contexts in the Bible, either to worship or to work. that that's what the Bible actually thinks about our work.

It is us worshipping to God by this act of productive, dignified labor. Well, it's interesting because, you know, a denigration of work is a denigration of this world, which is kind of like a denigration of human beings. It's a denigration of something that God has made and wants to redeem, but he doesn't want to throw away. But some people, you know, have this bad theology that, look, it's all going to burn. none of this means anything. It's all about the next life. That is simply not biblical. And a denigration of this world that God has created and wants us to be a part of redeeming through our work is it's simply unbiblical. That's the devil's view of this world. That's not God's view of this world.

We're talking to David Bonson, founder of the Bonson Group. New book, full-time work. And the meaning of life will be right back. Mike Lindell and my pillow employees want to thank my listeners for all your continued support to thank you. They're having an overstock clearance sale right now for the best prices ever when you use promo code Eric and you get free shipping for the entire order. Get 50% off the MyPillow 2.0 and the brand new flannel sheets that just arrived and won't last long. Get six-pack towel sets for only 2998 and take advantage of the free shipping on larger items like mattresses and mattress topers 100% made in the USA on sale for as low as 9999. Everything is on sale from the brand new kitchen towels that have the same technology as the bath towels that actually

absorb dog beds, blankets, couch pillows, and so much more to get the best specials ever. Go to mypillow.com. Use promo code Eric. Again, mypillow.com. Use promo code Eric. Remember, you get free shipping on your entire order. You can call 800-9783057. 800-9783057. Use promo code Eric. Welcome back, folks, talking to David Vonson about his new business. book full time, work and the meaning of life. So full time, why that title exactly? Give us the thinking behind that idea. Yeah, so I'll be very honest. There's a book that has sold about a million copies. I'm ahead of you. I know. I suddenly got it. I suddenly got it. But I will not step on it. I will let you tell it. This is good. I'm glad I asked this question. Go ahead. So a gentleman by name of Bob Buford, he

He passed away a couple of years ago, not too long ago, but he was a very big name in a lot of Christian evangelical circles in the 80s, 90s into the 2000s. And I can't even tell you how many big churches have used his book as a sort of like study guide, small group study, men's group study, that kind of thing. And it was called Half Time, Moving from Success to Significance. And I assume he picked that title because the title, halftime, a celebration of Gnostic heresy was not available. But I kid, because I think Bob was well-intentioned, but I still believe it was a deep error.

I think he meant well, but I think this notion of addressing midlife crisis primarily to men who wake up at age 50. I turn 50 in a couple of months. I've had a very successful career. And it has never occurred to me to wake up and say, oh, boy, I have all. this success, now I need to start doing something significant in my life. But I only don't have that problem, Eric, because I was blessed to be raised theological and philosophically in a home where my dad always said that from the janitor to what has proven to be a more white-collar career for me

had significance. But the implication, halftime, that we do half of our life with success and pragmatic victories, and then we all of a sudden have a transition period. And in the second half, half of our life. Then we have significance. It is what's called dualist, the distinction between sacred and secular. It is unbiblical. And I don't mean to pick on Bob Buford because I think he meant well, but I think he was wrong. And I think church is continuing to lean into this half-time mentality is an error. So I chose the title full-time to propose a counter. Here's what I think. Let's be successful and significant our whole lives and not look to halftime adjustments to start doing God's will. Well, again, it's the false choice. It's kind of like saying, well, you can love your country or you can

love the kingdom of heaven. You got to choose. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? That's not biblical. Biblically, it's supposed to be both. One is supposed to feed the other. If I, if I love God, it's going to inform everything. It's going to inform my work. It's going to inform what I do from 9 to 5 or whatever. It's going to be a part of that. And the idea that when I'm working, but I'm not working at a church or in some 501C3 ministry, that that's not God. And I'm just doing it so that I can get to a place where I can.

I mean, I think part of where that comes from is, you know, when Paul talks about tentmaking, that he is doing this thing so that he can port himself. But he never denigrates it. He doesn't make it seem like, man, I wish I didn't have to do the tent making. There's a dignity in it. And even I would say, David, that there's something beautiful about doing something and doing it well, even for its own sake. In other words, if I am making tense, obviously there's this utility because people need tense and that it has value.

But just the idea of doing something and doing it well and not looking through it and past it to, I'm only doing it so that I can do that other thing. I wouldn't think that Paul would have had that theology, but a lot of people do have that theology. It's like all that's meaningless and I'm just going to, I'm going to do it because I have to, but then I'm going to do what I really care about. So the halftime idea is like that. Like, okay, I made all this money now, now what? You know, and you think, well, gosh, maybe you've missed it while you were making the money,

you could have been doing it to the glory of God, but you have this idea that it was all wasted. And so not only do you end up creating a lot of guilt-ridden, middle-aged men and women that don't need to be guilt-ridden and they can realize, oh, these things I did, were significant to God, that God's kingdom is larger than I thought, and that success I had is significant. Not only does it need a more, if I could use a theologically advanced word here, Kiperian, the Abraham Kuyper's famous dictum, that Christ is Lord of all. Not only do we need that, but I want to ask you a question, what is the message to 25-year-olds that the 50-year-old is supposed to think of their career as the first half not being seen?

significant and the second half of their life being significant. Why should the 25-year-old now care about their career when they're told that life is truncated in a half time? The first half is success, second half is significant. It's the message it gives to the lower, the younger generation that horrifies me. Now, actually, we should clarify. There are people whose careers are a big waste. They're chasing, who knows what, doing new, who knows what. There are such things. Clearly, when we're defining work, we're hoping that people will find a job actually doing something, doing something that helps people, that creates wealth, that helps humanity, that helps me love my neighbor through the work that I'm doing. So, of course, there are jobs that are kind of meaningless

and stupid, and maybe we want to, you know, acknowledge that that exists. If someone's working a job, they don't care about, if someone is doing, it has no ethics, if someone's using two sharp elbows in the way they do deals, if someone isn't paying their bills, There's all sorts of things people could be doing wrongly. But if we say someone spent the first half of their life not working, not contributing, not building, playing video games, we would probably say, oh, they're wasting their life, their first half of their life too. So in both cases, the error is not working. The error is not in the productive activity of a career.

The error is in a specific element of sin, either not working or working unethically, working without the right motives and so forth. And so I think it's an ill-begotten endeavor that Beaufort took on to try to correct some of these things, and particularly the psychology of a midlife crisis. You know what I think most middle-aged men should be doing is reflecting with gratitude on the blessings they have and taking inventory to see where they can do better, repenting where they've sinned, seeking to do better. This applies to women, men, 40-year-old, 60-year-olds, all the above.

But when you say that Paul never talked about tentmaking and denigrated it, I actually quote in my book in chapter nine. I love Paul in Second Thessalonian saying, for you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined way among you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship. We kept working day and night so we would not be a burden to you. And he's celebrating their work as an example to the Thessalonian church. that's what I think, and he's talking about the tent making work. To me, there's this attitude in scripture that does not look like the attitude I hear from pulpits that talks about work in this sort of apologetic, negative way. And I would like us to have, if nothing else, if people don't ever want to use the word Kiperian again,

I would like people to at least change that attitude. I want to come back to Abraham Kuiper. I'm talking to David Bunce and don't go away. Welcome back talking to David Bonson, founder of the Bonson group and the author now of a new book, full-time work and the meaning of life. You referenced Abraham Kuyper. And Kuiper famously, I quote him in almost every speech I give. Chuck Holson used to quote this in every speech that Kuiper said, there's not one square inch in all of creation over which Jesus Christ, who is sovereign does not say mine.

In all of creation, not beyond the creation. heaven here. And the Lord wants us to look at work and what we do in that way. That's biblical. And a lot of people you're saying in pulpits and they talk about it like, well, I work at this job, but it didn't mean anything. I was just going after money. And now I can do something significant. Missions work in Africa as though what I was doing before was inherently meaningless. It's a terrible, terrible, unbiblical worldview. But what Kuiper did got so right, I think Kuiper was the ultimate heir of Calvin and Calvin, of course, being one of the famous Protestant reformers, he got right, a view of kingdom. If someone says, I don't care about work, I care about kingdom, then they just

said something contradictory because work is part of our kingdom. And if they say the African missions is part of kingdom because it's ministry, but your job as a janitor or a lawyer is not, then they have a misunderstanding of what kingdom is. And of course, Jesus himself in the Lord's prayer made this so abundantly clear, thy will be done on. earth as it is in heaven. Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. We are working in within the kingdom of God every day. And what most of us are spending the bulk of our time doing is in vocation. This idea of calling. I love you referenced Oz Guinness earlier. He's always understood this theologically. This is a matter of mighty importance. So we need to put aside so much of the way the

church is approaching it. Yeah. This is this is really, it's it's just good and it's clarifying. and you have spent, you know, your life being a Christian and being in the marketplace and never seeing this false choice between ministry versus work. We're supposed to be doing both simultaneously somehow. And again, it is a real denigration of this world. That's not God's view. But you see this everywhere. Before you called it, Nazism, that's what it is.

It's kind of like Nancy Piercy wrote a book where she unpacks a lot of this stuff. it's a central misunderstanding of many Christians and non-Christians who've kind of got their own wacky version of it. Yeah. Well, that's right. And right now the world has decided that people are working too hard. And that's our big source of alienation and depression. They shut down our economy for a couple years out of the pandemic. And then they were just shocked that people were depressed and useless.

Yeah, committing suicide. Committing suicide. But here's the thing. At least they didn't. get COVID. All those suicides. At least they didn't get COVID. Thank goodness. Yeah. And even by the way, where people, the ultimate fatality of someone taking their own life, but what about people who didn't take their own life, but basically have via drug abuse and alcohol? They've stripped out their souls. And so now this is why I think it's so important. It isn't just that the world says work as the

source of our problem and they're wrong. I think work is the source of the solution. They get it exactly backwards. And to me, a person who has a job and is employable becomes more meriable, and a person who is mariable is more employable. And you get back to this virtuous cycle, a positive feedback loop. The world's stuck in a vicious cycle. And they're sitting around going, what do we do? There's people are unemployable and unmarriable, and they're really sad, and they're doing opioids, and then they want to make it all about what the next election is going to be. It has nothing to do with the next president. This is about the soul of our society. People that engage in this virtuous cycle you and I believe in have a chance of the good life at Shalom,

at human flourishing. All of these concepts have to involve work because that's what God made us for. Well, this is beautiful and it's important. David Bonson, thank you. The book is full-time work and the meaning of life.