The Eric Metaxas Show - Dimas Salaberrios & Jennifer Pinckney & Rose Simmons (Encore)

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

Eric interviews key figures in the new documentary “Emmanuel” -- Jennifer Pinckney who narrowly escaped, Rose Simmons whose father was killed, and pastor Dimas Salaberrios who responded quickly to the victims in its aftermath. (Encore Presentation)

Animals love Eric. Why? Because he's one of them. He eats tin cans like a goat, and he can inflate his throat just like a bullfrog. And if he gets scared, he hops away, doink, doink, just like a cricket. It's pretty crazy. And now here he is, everybody's favorite animal. Eric Mataxon. Todd always has my number. That's what freaks me out. That's why I keep him on because he's got some stuff on me. I don't know what I want others to know about it. Folks, both hours today, we are talking with Brian Ivy, the director of this brand new film, really kind of a must see. It's called Emmanuel. It's about the church shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, four years ago, exactly four years ago. We've spoken about it on this program earlier. We had Pastor Anthony Thompson on the program for that for an hour. But today, we're going to continue the conversation with Brian Ivy,

director, the mastermind of this film, but also we have a few folks coming on. My friend Demis Salabarios, he's been on this program before. I didn't realize he was a producer on this film. We also have Polly Shepard is going to be in the studio and Jennifer Pinckney. Actually, Brian, tell us a little bit about Polly and Jennifer and then DeMis's involvement. Absolutely. Well, you know, when people think about the shooting, they often say, remember the Emmanuel 9 because nine people were killed, but we've often said remember the Emmanuel 14 because there were five survivors. And so Polly and Jennifer both survived the shooting. Meaning they were shot. They were in the room. Oh, they were in, okay, they were there and they

were not killed. Yes. And Jennifer was in the adjacent room in the pastor's office. And the pastor, of course, was her husband, Clemente. And Polly was hiding under a table, as she will tell you, I'm sure, on the program and was left alive purposefully to tell the story. It's so hard to process this. It is so hard. We had someone on who was in the Columbine shooting years ago, and he was saying the same thing, that he was shot and then not finished off so he could tell the story. It's absolutely mind-boggling.

to process this stuff. And my friend Demos, how is he involved in this? Yeah, so Demos was, it was funny because I was working on a different project entirely. I came to New York City and I was writing about the hard streets of Brooklyn. So I called my friend Matt Bennett and I said, who's the most hard. Wait a minute. You're friends with Matt Bennett? I am. Everybody's friends with Matt Bennett. I know that you were friends with Matt. I should have known that. I come out here. So I called Matt, which was my first mistake, and said, who's the most hardcore guy you know that could really educate me on the streets? And he said, Pastor Demos Salabarios, which was not, the pastor thing was not exactly what I was hoping for, but I met up with

DeMoss. I share my project with him. And he looked at me and said, what's really on your heart? Like, what story do you really want to tell? Because I think he knew I didn't really want to tell that story. And I said, Charleston. And so we decided we were going to do it together because he ended up knowing a lot of the families because he was there serving them, praying for them right after it happened. Yeah, well, I'll ask him about that in just a few minutes because I know he's waiting in the green room, but it's good to brag on people when they're not in the room, you know. But he is an amazing person and a dear friend. And I, but I didn't know of his involvement in this, but it kind of makes sense because he does a lot of ministering to people in zones of violence and killing.

He's done that in Chicago. that's just God's calling on his life, I guess. But so it was through our friend Matt Bennett. I just find that hilarious. Matt Bennett is the head of Christian Union. Anybody wants to know, Eric, how come you have Ken Fish on your program? It's because of Matt Bennett. You can blame Matt Bennett if you don't like Ken Fish.

And if you do like Ken Fish, you can thank Matt Bennett. But Matt is, he's a dear friend, and he went on the subways with DeMas doing street preaching. And I thought, wow, that's a bridge too far for yours truly. I think, I think. But anyway, well, that's just, that's tremendous. Okay, so in the realm of film, you said it's going to be two-night events. So this is any day now. Today's Friday.

So next week, the 17th and the 19th. What is that? Tuesday. Monday and a Wednesday. Okay, so it's this coming Monday and Wednesday. Holy cow. This Monday and Wednesday fathom events around the country. So if people want to find it, where do they go?

If you want to, what you can do is you can go to emmanuelmovie.com. Okay. Type in your zip code and it'll show a theater near you. We have about 1,000 theaters across the country. Wow. Yeah. Immanuelmovie.com, they just have to smell it manual correctly. Emmanuel 1M1N, simple.

Immanuelmovie.com. So this is an interesting model. We just got a few minutes left. But to put something in theaters, two nights only, so it does become a theatrical thing. It's like appointment. You know, you have to go or you miss it. But what happens to a film after that? Yeah, so what's great about the Fathom models, it kind of encourages us to make it into an event. And a lot of organizations are building around that event with talks and conversations that need to happen out of this. But thankfully, it will also be on

home video, iTunes, Amazon, everything starting on September 3rd. Okay. So eventually it does come out so that people can see it that way. But there's nothing like seeing something in theater with others who are interested or with friends. And it seems like that's what this is. Okay, so the ultimate cliche question, what is next for Brian Ivy? I mean, you know, you're in the middle of this, but clearly you're thinking about other stuff and working probably on other stuff. Yeah, I'm actually working right now on the Kirk Franklin biopic.

What? Yeah. How did I miss that? Yeah, so we're going to be announcing that pretty soon. Have you picked an actor because I'd like to throw my hat in the ring? No, we haven't actually. That would be interesting. You haven't? And much more controversial than my last film.

But we are announcing that pretty soon, and I'm hoping that we can get that out next year. Now, when you say biopic, I'm not aware of Kirk's story that there would be a biopic. What is briefly, what is that? Yeah, so it's going to be a narrative film, not a documentary, so scripted, which is exciting for me. And it is his story. He was abandoned by his parents when he was young. He was left on the door step of his auntie and piano teacher. And that's really how he became a Christian and how he became a legend in gospel music.

So it's going to be his redemption story. And I'm hoping that it changes a lot of people's lives. That's amazing. Wow. Do you have a title for it? Not yet. Okay, it can't be Rocket Man and it can't be Bohemian Rhapsody. I'm just letting you know those are taken.

But Kirk Franklin Actually there's a title of one of his albums that I can't remember it now of course But he has a couple of great album titles God's property That's I think that's what I'm thinking about That is that sounds like a good title for the film I'm sorry right

I'm just saying I'm coming it out there It's not my choice but God's property No but that's There's just something about that It kind of says it says it all It says it all right So what What are you going to get

Steph Curry and Viola Davis to do to get the word out about this film. Are they going on the Tonight Show? No. But Viola needs to step it up. Oh, yes. Yes, Viola's been doing a lot. She's going to be doing some different appearances. Mariska, I think, was on the Today Show today.

Viola was a... Mariska Hargatay is also... Mariska Hargatay? Yeah, she's one of our producers. Is that right? Yeah. I've known... I knew her husband years ago.

Yeah. And I didn't know that she was involved. Mariska Hargatee. Yeah. The Marisca Hargatee, a lot of people only know her from the punchline of the Mike Myers film. You know that? You know the love guru? Yes.

Right. I think his mantra was Marisca Hargitay. Anyway, never mind. I didn't know that. How many producers do you have on this sucker? This is like... Too many. But that's good.

It's good. All of them have the same heart to ensure the world doesn't forget about the story. story and to bless the families. And so I'm thankful for all of them. I love it. I love it. This is, look, you should be very proud. I've just heard so many great things about you. Some of them, through my own wife, who has spent more time with you than I have. But I'm just very excited that you're using the talent that God's given you and the passion that God's given you to tell these stories because there are very few people telling these stories. So I imagine, Brian, we're going to be seeing more of each other, whether you like it or not.

Thank you very much. And when we come back, folks, we're going to be talking more about Brian's film. Emmanuel. In the meantime, go to Emmanuelmovie.com. Check it out. June 17th, 19th. Kind of important stuff. Take the kids.

Out of town on a boat going to southern island, sailing to reach before a following sea. Hey there, folks. We begin. We begin. And we continue our conversation on the film called Emmanuel directed by Brian Avey. He was just my guest, but he had to go. We now get to talk to some old friends and new friends who have been involved with the film. First of all, my friend, Dimas Salabarios, is that a Greek name?

Well, we always go through this. Yes, there are many Demos that are Greek. I know. I know. But you don't look that Greek. No. But you know what? I don't look African-American, and I am.

You didn't know that about me. We are all brothers. Well, that's the thing I love about you is you get the most important thing, the only thing. I've known you for a long time. And you've been on this program. We talked about your book and about what you've done with violence in Chicago and all this stuff. But I didn't know you were involved in this film. So I got a happy surprise this morning when I realized I get to see my friend deal.

Well, it's true. But we're also, I don't want to forget sitting here with Rose Simmons, who's the daughter of the late Reverend. Daniel Simmons, Sr., who was killed in the 2015 Charleston Church shooting. Rose, welcome. Thank you. And thank you for being willing to talk about this, because I feel so strongly we need to talk about this because at the heart of it, we were saying it with the director, is something so beautiful and so inexplicable to most of the world.

The idea of forgiveness, it just does not make sense. And it shouldn't make sense. It's like a God thing. So thank you for being willing to talk about that. But Deemus, before we get into the story, what is your involvement in this? I mean, you're a New Yorker. We could tell by the way you pronounce New York. Yeah.

And Eric, you know, my heart, you know, like John Wesley said, the whole world is my parish. So I kind of look at that. And when things happen to Christians, I feel it's important to go. And not only Christians, even the shooting happened in Pittsburgh, I was there as well. But when I heard about the shooting, my wife, Tiffany, woke me up and she said, the shooting happened at an AME church. And she said, we really need to go. And three hours later, we were on a plane flying into Charleston. We were on the ground, walked up to about 2,000 people there, and started ministering and started to do encouragement.

And there was no prayer vigils going on. So we started mobilizing people. Then somebody put on the internet about this big march and no one showed up as a leader. So our team then just led the march across the bridge and started to just help family members as much as we could find. And I really sometimes don't understand why more Christians don't do that. And then, you know, about a year. Well, sometimes the wrong Christians do that stuff. Yeah.

And they're not going to mention names. It's true. Don't mention. I will not mention names. I don't mention L. Shopton on this program. But I'm saying there people that, you know, they always show up. Yeah. And then there's people like, look, it's one of the reasons we're friends.

I know you're the real deal. If you show up and, you know, you look like, you know, you're taking control. I could say like, yeah, you want that guy to take control because he's the real deal. He's not there to promote himself. And so I'm thrilled that you did that. And I'm kind of amazed at the gifting God has on your life that you are able to go and have a wife willing to say let's go and just to show up and to let the Holy Spirit lead you because you don't know what you're going to do.

We don't. But it is really beautiful. So you just showed up. But how did that lead to this film? It was like a year later or a little bit under a year. I helped out Brian I have a young guy comes through with a movie called the Dropbox. And I said, hey, I had the Salem radio show. I said, put them on radio show.

So hook him up. you know, let's put them on my show that we have on TBN. Let's help, you know, get them out called The Dynamic Life. I forgot. I forgot. We are now both on TBN. Yes, yes, yes. Where did we go right? Hey, TBN is right.

Is that the funniest thing? Isn't that the funniest thing, though, with you and I both, I forgot that we are colleagues on TBN. Yeah, it's amazing that you are in this place. That is, you know what? It's destiny. I just love that. All I can tell you is that don't compete with me. because I will crush you.

I speak as your friend, honestly. I will crush you. No, seriously. So you met Brian Ivy because of the first film. We just talked about it. So that happened. And then his wife somehow bought my book, gave it to him. Right around the same time he talks to Matt Bennett, comes to New York.

And he was telling me about this TV show. And I just realized that wasn't the show. So wait, yeah. He was saying that he had another idea. He did. And he was talking our buddy Matt Bennett. And Matt suggested. you and as you got talking you started to discern like wait a minute Brian there's something else

that you prefer to be doing yeah so what's really on your heart and when he said Charleston I literally fell out of my seat I was like did you know that we were there I was one of the only clergy allowed onto the scene and and connected with family members and prayed with many of them and he was like, well, would you help me do it? Would you be a producer on it? And I said, and this is powerful because this is very important for listeners. I was walking my wife to meet Brian Ivy, and my wife stopped on Fifth Avenue and said, the Holy Spirit just spoke.

And I said, okay, I looked at her. She said, we're going to become producers. And I said, all right, honey. Did the Lord use the word producers in English, or did he use the Aramaic word for producers? I don't know. It was English coming out of her mouth. Okay. And we walked into that meeting, walked out an hour later, and we were going to make the film. And then we had to get the funding for it.

And we were like, God, how people said, you're going to be on the road for six months. And Brian said, God's going to do this today and tomorrow. and we walked into two meetings and walked out with 100% the movie was fun. Walking with the Holy Spirit is not only the right thing to do, but it saves a lot of time. And walking with Rose is such a queen. I was going to say, I got to talk to Rose. I mean, when you get to meet all the families, Rose, Jennifer, I mean, their hearts for God and just. Well, see, people don't, the reason I get so excited is that people don't see that.

And usually Christians who are like that, it's like, oh, I don't want to be on camera. And I'm thinking, no, you're the one who should be on camera. Everybody else should shut up and get off camera. We need to see the real thing. And what we saw in Charleston is as real as it gets. It's as shocking. It's shocking to Christians, much less to non-Christians. But Rose, tell you're part of this story because you were right in the middle of it.

Well, first of all, thank you for this time on the show. I met Brian when he came to Charleston. in the first initial meeting with the families. And I was so moved by the way that I saw the Holy Spirit upon him with this film. And I wanted to be a part. And here we are three years later. It is incredible. Now, your father was killed, and most of us cannot process.

How do you – what were your initial thoughts, and at what point did the concept of forgiveness enter? Because a lot of times as Christians, we know I'm supposed to forgive. But that's another subject. It's one thing to say intellectually. It's another thing to somehow enter into that, to be able to. Well, the moment I was told, my first initial thought was about seeing him again and him being a part of my life in the future. And I remember making this statement.

I said, oh, God, I'm never going to see him again. And, you know, the Holy Spirit as gracious and with his gracefulness spoke to me at that moment and said to me, yes, you will see him again. And I said, I repeated, I said, oh, yes, I will see him again. And that's where that smile and that part, that joy of being a Christian and understanding the word of the Lord came in. And it has sustained me to this point. Well, as I was saying, there are many Christians. they say they're Christians, but they don't really, they don't have these thoughts. They kind of think the way everybody thinks.

But what you just said, to know you're going to see him. You know what I'm saying, oh, I hope. Forget hope. You know you will see him. It's still sad until you see him. At what point did you, was it in this, what was it called? I'm trying to think I was talking to the Reverend Anthony Thompson. is a, he was talking about an event

it was like two days later. It was at the event where a number of family the bond hearing, that's it. On June 19th and that's the other, that's such significant day where the Holy Spirit showed up and that's another date that the movie will be out on June 19th where people

can go and view it. I didn't get that. So Monday is the fourth anniversary of the shooting and the 19th is the anniversary of the bond hearing. Yeah, forgave. So that's on purpose. Yeah.

And then taking a day that was supposed to be a day of hate and turn into a day of unity and love on June 17th. So you were there at that bond hearing? I was not present at the bond hearing. Okay. But what's important for me is the moment that I heard about it. My thoughts, of course, went to my father. And I thought more of not so much of how he was in the exit of this life, but how he was triumphantly entering into eternity. And with that, forgiveness for me was more or less for me, really it was for me. And it was for me to be able to remain in this humane part of myself and not be in prison to unforgiveness and bitterness. Forgive me. We're going to go to break.

We'll be right back, folks. Important stuff. Stick around. Christian bestselling author and speaker, Richard E. Simmons, does not shy away from the big questions of life. His latest book is called Reflections on the Existence of God, and it tackles the biggest question of all, does God exist? I've read this book, and I've got to tell you, I'm a little biased, but you can imagine that I like it a lot because Simmons offers insights for those grappling with life's biggest questions. Where do we find meaning in life? determines what is evil. Can we be moral without God? Does God even exist? Former White House aide Wallace Henley says, I've taught apologetics for many years and I've read every scholar mentioned in this book.

Of all the books on apologetics, Simmons is the best I have ever read. This book is easy to read because it's divided into a series of brief essays perfect for a devotional or discussion with a friend. I highly recommend that you add a copy of reflections on the existence of God to your pandemic reading list. ask questions that speak directly to one of the most important things you possess your worldview. Folks, you know how important this is to me. Your worldview is going to impact the way you live your life for better or for worse. If you want to challenge yourself to spiritual and intellectual growth, and I hope you do, then be willing to ask yourself life's toughest questions. Dive in today by picking up a copy of reflections on the existence of God right now. Go to

existence of Godbook.com. That's existence of Godbook.com. I saw the knights in armor come and saying something about a queen. There were peasants singing and drummers drumming and the archers. It's the airmen taxes show. We are talking about the film Emmanuel, which is only in theaters June 17th. That's like in 10 minutes, right? June 17th, that's Monday, this Monday, and the night. 19th, and I'm sitting here with my friend Demas Salabarios, who's a pastor here in New York,

who's one of the producers on the film, and with Rose Simmons, whose father was killed in the Charleston church shooting. Rose, I just have to ask you again, because so many people don't get this, and it's in some ways inexplicable. But a lot of times when people experience a huge loss or an injustice, let's call it that, it's an injustice. It's a vile, evil, evil thing, they don't get how you get to forgiveness and how you don't get stuck in justice, because justice says, I want, well, when we say I want justice, of course you want justice. Sure. But what is your view of justice and how does forgiveness and grace bump up into justice?

Well, actually, I think they can work hand in hand. And I want the world to understand that just because I am an advocate of forgiveness, it's not that I want justice to be silenced. You know, I was at the trial every day and, you know, seeking justice and hoping that the laws of the land would work accordingly. But, you know, I'm a Christian. I believe in the Lord God Almighty. I believe in what His Word says.

And I believe that Jesus came to this world and died for me as well as my enemies. And for that, you know, it was not a challenge. It wasn't a challenge for me to. seek forgiveness for the perpetrator. Sounds like your father raised you right. Because that's a big thing. There's a lot of Christians that don't, they just don't get what you just said. Or maybe they can kind of get it intellectually, but to know it and to live it is a big deal.

Pastor Anthony Thompson was saying that, you know, he wrote a letter to the murderer and saying that, you know, you need to repent. You need to. So it's good that he's clear. that because sometimes grace is cheap people just kind of throw it out you like oh I forgive you it's like no no no it's like Jesus had to die so that we could have forgiveness but also to be willing to understand that that we're fighting not against flesh and blood and that I guess it reminds me I know you're going to be too young

and you're not from New York but but Demas will remember like me in 1977 when I was a you know a young teenager we had the son of Sam murdering people randomly. The whole city was terrified. And eventually he was caught, put behind bars. And at some point, some of the pastors of the church where I have preached at, and I don't know if you've preached there, but you know Times Square Church. Somehow that wicked man, David Berkowitz, became a born-again believer in Jesus and has spent the rest of his life decades, ministering the love of Jesus to his fellow prisoners. And if you had said that to somebody in 1977, they would say, shut up.

I don't even want to hear that. And here we are. And it was so odd about that. One of my friends, whose name is Robert, was converted in prison by the son of Sam. You are kidding. Yeah, he's almost like a pastor in there. He teaches and preaches the word. This is like a new level of insanity what I'm hearing here.

You know someone who was led to faith through David Berkowitz. We'll do a special time. I'll bring him on your show. You want to set this room on fire. He's got stories. He was in there wanting to kill him, kill the son of Sam, and then he got converted by the son of Sam. So it's, it's, it's, it just shows the beauty.

If you want to see good and evil side by side. It just shows the beauty of grace. And when I, you know, when I think about the film, Emmanuel, I know there's probably people that are like, oh, my, Gosh, I'm telling you, when you walk out of everyone that walks out of there is full of such hope. Yes. You know, because it speaks to so much that's going at that time. That was the worst church shooting in American history.

But now it's not, you know, it's not the largest number. It still was the most treacherous in my eyes to go through a Bible study, to pray with people. Well, there are certain things you can only describe as satanic. I mean, how else do you describe it? You know, human beings are not that wicked. and devious. There's something about it that's just so sick you have to recognize. This is satanic evil. And the only thing that can combat it is Jesus, period. He wanted to start a race war, but he picked the wrong place. He went to church. And these were real Christians.

Rose is a real Christian. Jennifer is a real Christian. These people are real Christians. taught the word. And that's what makes all the difference. Listen, at some point, it's just so beyond us to fathom what God can do. I mean, you know, when Scripture says all things work together for good for those that love the Lord called according to his purposes, and you think all things, Lord? And he's like, yes, all things. Even the most wicked thing, if you turn it over to me, I'm going to do something so beautiful and powerful. I mean, what you all are manifesting in your lives is a testimony to, thousands and hopefully millions of people, some Christians, some not Christian, because they're not

going to see this anyplace else. They're not going to see this on, you know, Jimmy Fallon's Tonight Show or what it just, it doesn't exist in the culture unless, you know, somebody like, you Rose speaks up. We're going to, we're going to keep you here, Rose, and we're going to bring on Jennifer Pinkney in a minute. But DeMis, I just want to say to my brother and friend, thank you for your leadership and being involved in this. God is using you mightily I'm grateful to you and I'll see you later but thank you so much

and we'll be right back folks it's Eric Mattaxas show remember go to emmanuel movie.com check it out come Hey there folks we're talking about the movie Emmanuel which is in theaters

June 17th and June 19th that's like right now so you should check it out and I have the privilege of speaking with to the women who were in the film and who were involved in the actual horror of the day four years ago when someone murdered nine people in a church Bible study in Charleston South Carolina.

I have joining us now, Jennifer Pinkney. Jennifer, welcome. Thanks for being here. Thank you. You were in the room when this horrible thing happened. Yes, sir, I was. I've not spoken to anyone who was in the room before, and it's very hard for me to fathom what that experience was like. Can you describe it? What can you say about that? Well, I was in the pastor study, not the actual room where the shooting took place. I was in the pastor study before Clemente had walked through and he was headed into the Bible study.

And that's your husband. Clemente is my husband. It was my husband. And I was in there with our thin six-year-old. Yes. If she had not been there, then I would have probably wouldn't be speaking to you today because I would have been sitting out there beside my husband. And is that the daughter that's with us in the studio?

It is. So you're there with your daughter. Your husband walks in. He's murdered. Yes. He walked in. And after we talked a little bit, he turned a little bit. the television on for Milana, and then he walked into the Bible study. And Malana and I, we stayed

in the pastor's study, and basically for the entirety of the Bible study, until I heard gunshots. And what did you think immediately when you heard gunshots? It doesn't seem conceivable to anybody that you're in a pastor's study. There's a Bible study going on in the next room, and then you hear gunshots. At first, I thought it was maybe a generator exploding. or something like that. And I immediately jumped up, and I actually ran to the door, and I was going to open it and walk out. And I probably opened the door maybe an inch, if that much, and it just hit me that those are gunshots.

And I quietly closed and locked the door, and I ran through, snatched up my daughter, and I ran through his office and into the secretary's office, and I shoved her under the desk, and I went to that door and I locked that door. So you knew right away what was happening. By now you knew what was happening. Yes. And how long did this go on before cops showed up? I mean, you know, because most of us, you hear about something and it's all in the past tense,

but you lived through every minute. It seemed like it was going on forever, just the constant shooting and so forth. it was just like, is it going to stop? I was actually going to make a run for it. And I had told my daughter, you know, that I love her, tell her sister that I loved her because her sister Eliana had stayed home with grandma. And so I basically said, you know, regardless what happens, do not come from under this desk. And before I could do anything, bullets started coming through the office. and I immediately leaped under the desk with her.

And did the gunman come into the office at any point? He was still shooting, and I was under the desk with Milana. And then he was, like I said, shots were still being fired. And then he apparently he said, I got to do this. And I heard he tried to open the office door. My blood ran cold. And, you know, he turned the knob several times.

He couldn't get in. And he turned around and he walked out the door, walked out of the church. At what point was he apprehended? Oh, he was long gone. I was still under the desk. I heard, I was, by this time, I had told my daughter that I was going to crawl back into the pastor study because I was hoping that he was fully gone. I was going to crawl back into the pastor study to get my cell phone. And I did.

And I came back and then I called 911. And the entire time that I was on the phone, I was telling her basically what I heard and who was in the office. and who was in the office with me and where we were located. And the entire time she was just trying to keep me calm and just trying to just talk to me in general. And I finally heard the police officers or first responders enter the church. They first said we have one right here, which was basically right outside the door.

And they said this one's alive. and they started working on them. And I knew it was a male because I heard him. He grunted one or two times. I'm sorry, who was this? Was this the murderer? No, this was one of the individuals that was shot. Was shot, but okay.

And did he survive? No, he did not. He did not survive? No, he did not. When did you realize that your husband had been killed? When we left out of the church, because we were all, they had taken us to a hotel right across the street in the beginning. You know, the small area of the church that I actually went through when I saw the blood,

the pools of blood all over the floor, the ceilings, and so forth, I knew it was bad. But then I had heard Felicia and Polly, when they were talking on the phone and they were calling several people, you know, I heard them when they said everybody's been shot, everyone's dead. And I kind of knew that was the case. By that point in time, I was holding Milana, and I know she had heard it, but I was trying to shield her as much as possible. And after a while, I just kind of realized that knowing Clemente, like I do, if he had been wounded or if he could, you know, still talk,

he would have basically got some kind of word back to me. to let me know that he was all right. Did you go to the bond hearing two days later? No, I did not. You did not go. At what point did the idea of forgiveness enter your mind? Because that's unthinkable to most of us when we hear what you just described. In the beginning, you know, like I've stated before, some people were very forgiving.

Some people were still kind of like, you know, not so much. I kind of teeter-toddered because my first thought in the beginning I was just numb to the to the entire event. Hang on one second, Jennifer. Folks, I'm talking to people who are involved in this documentary because they were involved in this tragedy four years ago. Stick around. Hey there, folks. It's here from Texas show. We're talking just a few minutes left about this film, Emmanuel, which is coming out in theaters June 17th and 19th, which is coming up here.

in a couple of days. And I have in the studio, Jennifer Pinckney and Rose Simmons, Jennifer, you lost your husband and Rose, you lost your father. And just off the air, you were saying that when Jennifer, a moment ago, was talking about someone who was still living, who died. You said that was your father. That was my father, yes. It's incomprehensible, as I say, there's no way for people to understand what it would be like to go through this. So many people in the world have gone through such hell, but if it hasn't happened to you, it's very hard to process this.

What do both of you hope will be accomplished with this film coming out? Unity, love, people understand that life is too short. They get right with God. To get right with God. this story, the forgiveness that I hear, to me it proves God. If I didn't believe in God, I would say I cannot explain how these human beings. They're not crazy. How can they possibly have this idea of forgiveness?

It doesn't really make human sense. But when you say unity, you mean racially unity? What do you mean? Racially, just all of us, we need to come together. We need to love one another. There's too much hate in the world. Well, right, but there are a lot of people that say, In other words, to me there are a lot of people that are stuck on the justice issue,

and they don't want the hate to end because they feel like if the hate ends, they gave up. They don't believe justice can happen. They feel like they have to. You're looking at it a different way. How is your way, if you don't mind my asking, different than the people who say, you know, I will, you know, whether it's taking a knee at a football game or whatever it is, but they say that I need to let people remember the division as a, opposed to wanting healing and unity, they don't seem ready for that yet.

At what point are we ready for something like that? Well, I think, you know, hate, bitterness, all of those things have an appetite. And in order for them to exist, they have to be fed. And the food comes from our hearts. And I think that when they allow these giants to grow within them, you know, it just breeds more hate. more bidders. So I agree with Jennifer. I think that the world, I think the world is ready for the film Emmanuel. And I think there are many out there that would, that need this place of firm foundation to stand on. And I think Emmanuel gives that. It gives a sense of hope because

you will leave thinking that the world has actually has a chance. And, I'm so proud of it. I'm proud of the project. And Rosa, I'm guessing you would agree with that. Anything you want to add to that? I'm sorry, I said Jennifer, yes. I just think everyone needs to go out and support it. It is very touching, and, you know, you're definitely going to need the tissues. It's a tear jerk. I mean, listen, I say it outspokenly as a Christian. I really do believe Jesus is the only answer to the divisions that we have. There is no other answer. And so that's why I think we need to be loud about it to let people know, listen, there is an answer.

There's no other answer. And you have lived it. That's why it's just such an honor to have you on this program. Because to live through this and to come out the other side and say, I still believe in forgiveness and praying for my enemies. But, you know, it speaks much more loudly than if I say it. So thank you for being, thank you for being part of the film. And thanks for being willing to come on the program. you. Thank you. God bless you as well.