The Eric Metaxas Show - Doug Schoen

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

Democratic strategist Doug Schoen and author of "The End of Democracy?" joins Eric to cordially discuss where they agree and where they differ on the current state of the country, both politically and culturally.

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. It's the show featuring GoGo the Chim. Nothing like a chimp till I'm a radio show. Easy there, go-go. Go-Go. Go-Go. No. No. No. No. Now your host, Eric Mataxis. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. What a show we have today. In a couple of minutes, we're speaking to Doug Shone. Some of you know him as the principled Democratic spokesperson on Fox News. I've debated him on Shannon Bream. And, you know, he's somebody, though he comes from the other side of the aisle than I do,

I always respect what he has to say. He's kind of what the Democratic Party used to be. They were centrist, a lot of them, and he's certainly in that mold. So I look forward in a couple seconds talking to me. He's got a new book about the decline, the possible decline of America, the emergence of Russia and China. A lot to get into there. Maybe he and I will end up to be. on some of these things, but I always look forward to having him on.

So that's a couple of minutes from now. And an hour two, we're rerunning our show with Rod Dreher. Rod Dreher has written an excellent book about how we are right now in America facing what many people from communist countries recognize as losing individual power and where the state begins to take over and start telling us how to think and what to do. Rod Dreher has written an excellent book which talks about that and which talks about what it was like to live

under the USSR people who are Christians who were persecuted during that time really, really important. We know that history. So that's coming up an hour two today. And Albin tomorrow are you ready for this? Oh, I'm ready. I'm ready. Sarah Huckabee Sanders. She is the daughter, as most of

of us know of Governor Huckabee, and she was the White House Press Secretary. Oh, I thought she was the daughter of Colonel Sanders. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's someone else. That's someone else. We're talking about, we're talking about the wife of Sanders and the daughter of Governor Huckabee. That's Sarah Huckabee Sanders. She's on tomorrow's program. She's got a book out. Some of it is very funny. I really look forward to talking to her. And speaking to which tomorrow is going to be the vice presidential debate between obviously the vice president, Mike Pence, who is a tremendously sweet, humble man. I know him personally. And Kamala Harris, of whom I'm not fond. So that's

going to be tomorrow night. So I thought it was Pence and Spiro Agnew, no. No, no, Spiro Agnew resigned and died a long time ago. That was under the Nixon administration. Let me just say that Thursday, Kevin McCullough and I are going to dissect the debate, the vice presidential debate. So we've got a crazy week ahead, and there's all kinds of other stuff happening. But right now, before we get to Doug Shone, a couple of things that we should talk about. First of all, I want to reiterate to my listening family, because I think of you as a family, most of you as funny uncles, but family nonetheless, I want to reiterate that if you go to my They are our chief sponsor on the program, and Mike Lindell periodically shows up on this program

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to tell my audience that if they use Eric as the promotional code, when you go to MyPillow.com, you get a whopping savings. It's really true. You get a gigantic savings when you go to MyPillow.com. You put in the code Eric. Albin, you and I, we've gotten so much product from Mike Lindell. If you need, by the way, masks, they sell masks. You know, people saying, where do I get a mask from?

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Because, yeah, we're going to have a pandemic. Who knows when we'll have the next pandemic. But I want to say, please use the code, Eric, and tell your friends to use the code, Eric. Don't use those phony TV codes. Like when you see a Mike Lindell commercial on TV, they give you a code. Tell your friends, you cannot trust those codes.

You need to use the code. Eric, you know, you don't have to believe me, but I'm just telling you it's your life. Do what you want. Okay. We also should say, oh, Albin, we have not told the audience. Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm going to make this quick because we got Doug Schoen coming up.

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by having dinner with you. So we're out of time right now. I'm going to give you the phone number for lines of ending freedom. Please call this. 855-5-47-53-33. 855-5-47-53. We'll be right back with Doug Scho. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the program. I have the privilege right now. and for the rest of the hour to speak with Doug Shone. You know him, I guess, as a Democratic strategist, pollster, somebody that we've seen usually upholding the Democratic view on places like Fox News.

But the reason I like Douglas Shone is because he's not your average Democratic strategist. He's someone I have found to be particularly clear and truthful and helpful. He has a book out called The End of Democracy, Question Mark, Russia and China on the Rise, America in Retreat. Doug Schoen, welcome on the program. Eric, thank you for having me. Appreciate the kind introduction. Well, it's absolutely true. You know, for example, this book, The End of Democracy, Russia and China on the Rise, America, and Retreat, you know, you don't expect somebody who has been a top Democratic pollster for decades to be talking about that, although I think we should. Tell us about the thesis of your book. It's something that interests me tremendously, something I take very seriously.

Talk about that. And by the way, the book is brand new out this week, so people should check it out at a democracy. But tell us about your thesis and what you're all compelled to write about it. Eric, I see America in retreat around the world, as the title suggests. We're withdrawing from international organizations, withdrawing from the possibility of international conflict, as we see a resurgent and ascend in China in particular in the South China Sea, now with Taiwan. We see Russia continuing in Syria, in Africa, in Latin America to extend their influence now in the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. So, Eric, I wonder whether our democracy and the principles that undergird it that you and I care for so passionately

are at risk because we are not assertive of our values, of our interests, and who we are as a people. And I wrote the book as a warning sign for our country and for our leaders to say we need to be cognizant that we are all at risk, not only at home from what we saw last week in the presidential debate, but we see overseas as well. Well, I guess there's a lot to talk about. I mean, when you talk about withdrawing from international treaties and stuff, I feel that the one thing this president has gotten right, we'll start there, is that he has for decades now, long before people were thinking of him as a presidential candidate, much less president. He has talked about China, about the trade imbalance with China, how they've been taking advantage of us. He strikes me as being the kind of a, president who has the courage to stand up to China, to be willing to impose tariffs, to be willing

to talk tough. I guess he also gets the idea that they don't share our values, that they are imprisoning and murdering Uyghur Muslims. We now have a globalist worldview among our cultural elites that says, we can do business with them. The NBA and Nike and others can make billions dealing with folks like China who don't share our values. And I think that the president, not only does he stand up against China as a businessman, as a saying that these are unfair deals, but he's standing up against what I see

as a kind of an amoral, cultural globalism. And that's kind of the issue for me, that there are plenty of folks in Europe, Macron and the folks are supposed to be our partners in places like NATO, they don't seem to have any trouble dealing with China or, God forbid, Iran. They certainly don't share our values. So why do we care so much about being allied with them?

Well, we care because they are democracies, because they share more of our values than the Russians, the Chinese, certainly the Iranians. But what is missing from your narrative, which is, I think, a very thoughtful one, is the notion of American leadership. And while you're right that the president has critiqued China in ways that I am sympathetic with, we need to engage with our allies in Asia. So I was disappointed that he withdrew from the TPP.

I am also very disappointed that Taiwan is now at risk to an incursion. I'm disappointed about what's happening in Hong Kong. And I am somebody who believes in human rights. I think we probably share that. but the fact that millions of Uyghurs have been put in concentration camps, that the same approach has been used in Tibet, scares me, troubles me, worries me, and disappoints me greatly, though there's one thing that bothers me more than even all of that combined that the Chinese and the Russians are cooperating on that Donald Trump has not done enough in my judgment about, which is the whole issue of North Korea. I believe we need to cut them out of the international financial system. We need to isolate them and make it clear that the fact that Kim Jong-un says, sends nice things to Donald Trump and writes them nice letters is not a substitute for a hard-headed policy

to make them pay for their nuclear policy. Well, I can't speak to that substantively, but I guess where Russia is concerned, it's hard for me to take Russia seriously. and I find it risable that people treat Russia the way we once treat or regarded the Soviet Union, which was a superpower. Russia's economy and, I mean, I don't know that we need to take them all that seriously. China and China's support of North Korea is another story. The Russians support them too.

Well, sure, sure. I guess I still, so then let me ask you, when you talk about American leadership, is your critique of the president that he is, you know, America First, America alone, that he's pulling away from those things generally? Is that the issue? It's a bunch of things. First, let's talk about something I know you care passionally about, which are values. And to me, we have a unique set of values that we need to articulate that we don't. And this is a problem to me of Democrats, Republicans. I'm not sitting here just blaming the president. But I believe that our experiment

with democracy is the greatest effort ever made in the history of mankind to offer a representative form of government. I believe large numbers of people around the world share that view. The only problem is our elites, who you refer to rightly as cultural elites, don't necessarily articulate that the way I would like to think it ought to be articulated. I think that because the Russians and Chinese from their own perspective are afraid of what we stand for, they put forward a different view, a one of sovereignty overall, sovereignty over the rights of man. And I think the fact that we haven't engaged with our European allies who you're correct, rightly and fairly, Eric, you point out that they sometimes do business with people. I wouldn't do business with. What I am missing is leadership on values, leadership in terms of alliances, and leadership militarily. Put another way, I believe in a 50s and 60s sense of American engagement,

that doesn't mean that we need to find wars and conflicts everywhere, but I do think we need to find allies where we can based on who we are and what we stand for. Well, Doug, one thing that we have today that we didn't have in the 50s and 60s is we have extraordinarily powerful global corporations like Google and Nike and Apple that do not seem to share the values that you, a Democrat, and I, a conservative, have. In other words, they seem to me to be fundamentally amoral. They don't seem to be patriotic Americans. When I think of Nike, and the NBA worrying about losing billions if we say something that we maybe shouldn't say to China. I think to myself, these are people who would have done business with the Nazis.

They couldn't care less. And that comes to some extent, I can see where that comes from liberals, but it comes from conservatives who've made an idol of the free market and who seem to think that if we give most favorite nation status to China, or we, We trade with them that somehow they were all become Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. I mean, that to me is the bigger issue. When you've got folks like Google willing to help the Chinese monsters oppress their people using technology that Google has, and then Google is not willing to help the American government, I just think to myself, this is brand new.

In the 50s and 60s, most people in big corporations like IBM or whatever it was, they had the values that we're talking about. about. Oh, I agree with you. I mean, I believe that we used to have the unstated but clear premise that corporate America would defer to the broader interests of the U.S. government. Now we have corporations with their own power, influence, and indeed, even as you point out, foreign policy. And to take the specifics of what you cite, when I saw what happened with the NBA, with, I think He was the Houston general manager, Darry, at the time. And I saw how the NBA withdrew. I was embarrassed.

And when LeBron James, who is probably the best basketball player on the planet, was trying to, in a certain sense, defend the NBA. Forgive me, Doug. We're going to a hard break. I want to give you time to finish this. When we come back, we're going to continue right on that point. Folks, the book is the end of democracy. Don't go away.

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folks i got some embarrassing news to share with you but you know what uh this is just the kind of a show where i don't care i'm willing to uh to lay my heart you know on the line here's the issue um mike lindell with my pillow uh you may you may notice that uh i have a bobble hell of head of him near me he's here to remind all of us that when you go to my pillow dot com you get whopping discounts if you use the code Eric. Okay. Now, there are a lot of people who haven't done that, and we have your names here.

And Chris Heim's Ann Albin pointed out to me that there's like three pages of you whose first name is Eric. You, yourself. I mean, that's humiliating for me that even though your name is Eric, you're still not willing to use the code Eric. I mean, if you don't want to use it because it's my name,

use it because it's your name. But the point is that I see, who you are, and I just, I just feel humiliated by this. Please go to, go to mypillar.com. It's okay, Mike. It's going to be okay. Go to mypillar.com. Use the code, Eric. You're going to get whopping savings and really high quality products. Did I, did I mention that? Thank you. They're going to put me in the movies. Hey there, folks. I'm talking to Doug Shone. His new book is the end of democracy, Russia and China on the rise, America and retreat. Doug, you were just talking about LeBron James and what you thought of that.

Please continue, because I have never been so horrified. And I guess what it spoke to is we've had decades where we have not pushed forward this patriotic view and these ideas. And as a result, you have outrageous ignorance, not just among athletes, you know, who are typically not known for understanding these deeper issues, but among the leaders of the NBA, not just team leaders, but corporate leaders. That to me is the scandal. These are extremely educated people.

So please go along those lines. Let me finish. First, and on LeBron James, look, I disagreed with his view on China. And I've made it clear here and other places. I also would think in the interest of fairness, he has been eloquent and speaking against racism in the United States. He's been a leader of the NBA players and trying to make the best we can of this season.

and the circumstances that we face. So I'm not here to bash LeBron James or bash players or even bash elites. I'm more here to say that it is very sad that we cannot stand up as a people, whether be a basketball player, a corporate executive or a political leader, for human rights in China and the fact that all people should have the right to express themselves on their Twitter account or online on social media. And that to me is a priceless American freedom that I hope all Americans,

regardless of profession, sport, talent, intellect, party ideology will stand for because it goes to my larger point, Eric. We as Americans have to stand for our values, which begin and end with freedom and liberty. Well, you know that I agree with you on all this. And I think what I keep saying, you know, as a conservative is that I feel that the Democratic Party is no longer the Democratic Party.

In other words, of course you remember Reagan saying that I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party left me. That was Reagan. Today, it seems to me that folks like you, the Democratic Party has left you in the dust. They're off playing patty cake with AOC, with cultural Marxists. To me, it's scandalous that we have leadership, which includes Biden, who are unable to stand up to that. We need a sister soldier moment. We got one from Clinton. I don't think the Democratic Party under policy

and Schiff and Biden, they no longer have the moral courage to stand up to that kind of radical anti-American thinking. And if it's anti-American thinking, it's anti-everything you and I are talking about, human rights. And again, let me be very clear in where we agree

and where we disagree. First, I think there is a wing of the Democratic Party, too big, in my mind, that does share far-left progressive values. Now, I'm not with AOC. I'm not with the squad. I probably almost certainly share your views of them. But when you get into the antifas of the world, those aren't Democrats.

Those are dangerous radicals who I dismiss without any questions. or doubt. I also recognize that when we are dealing with systemic racism in our society, the fact that people are speaking out is good, though I am absolutely against the funding the police. I believe we need to maintain support for law and order. And I think what we need are programs to empower minorities, Hispanics, blacks, and indeed those who economically are deprived. And I'd love to see my party, the Democrats, moderates like Joe Biden, and I think he is a moderate, whatever else you might think of him, speaking out for those kind of programs that bring people together. And again, speak for pulling up people and giving them an opportunity, which is why

I became a Democrat and remained one. I guess I just feel that today, it doesn't seem to me that that the Democratic Party is doing anything to stand against, you know, what I call cultural Marxism, a lot of this kind of stuff. In other words, when you don't speak out against, you know, BLM and Antifa are effectively cultural Marxists who don't believe in any kind of moral order. So when you talk about racism, when you talk about liberty, when you talk about these kinds of things, I don't, it's, to me, it's just kind of power mongering. They no longer, they don't really stand for anything except power. And I don't know how you could vote for a party that seems to allow that in the way that Trump is accused of allowing white supremacy, which I think is nonsense.

But I think they actually have enabled that. They haven't been able to take a stand against it. And I mean, I can drag the whole country down. Right. And the point I'm trying to make, Eric, putting aside the, what I think is a phony debate, I mean, I wish Trump had been a more forthright in the debate speaking against white supremacy, but he made it clear in the past that he's against it. And he indicated, I think, at least once or twice. He was against white supremacy. But to me, this is a phony argument saying, oh, he's for white supremacy. Well, I'm glad he spoke against it, and I take him at his word that he's against it. I didn't like what he said in Charlottesville, but I take his clarification. Seriously, I appreciate it. And I take

those Democrats who distance themselves, as I do, certainly, from BLM and God knows Antifa, but I say something different. Let's put aside the labeling, the finger pointing, and let's look at programs that will uplift people, that we could have job training, that we could have an educational policy that gives people a chance to get ahead and develop the skills they need that offers rehabilitation for those who get out of incarceration so they can reenter society in a constructive way. That's why I'm a Democrat, just traditionally Democrats do more there than Republicans. I would support. Hang on, forgive me, Doug. We're going to go to a break. We'll be right back, folks. I'm talking to Doug Schoen. The book is the end of democracy.

Thank you. Hey there, folks. I'm talking to Douglas Schoen. The new book is called The End of Democracy out this week, Russia and China on the rise, America in retreat. Doug, when you talk about the unraveling so-called of America. I think a lot of people, maybe a lot of people listening to us right now, would say it's unraveling in democratically controlled cities, in cities that have been controlled by Democrats now for decades and decades, that there's an underclass in those cities that ought by now to see that the Democratic policies have not helped them, and that we have Democratic governors and Mayors turning a blind eye to this kind of violence.

I don't know how else you can see it. I mean, I've just been stunned that we could see that kind of unraveling in America. How do you perceive that? I see it actually differently. I believe that we have polarization at all levels that we're spending more time, as I was saying before the break, fighting with each other about labels than we are trying to work together to different. policies that will improve the social, economic, and cultural position of an entire

people. And rather than pointing fingers, and certainly I am against those who are mindlessly promoting and provoking violence in cities, whoever they may be, and there are white people doing it, they're African Americans, there are younger people, older people. I'm against violence in all types. I'll speak against it. And if Democrats or Republicans are doing it, I'm against it. I'm against this finger pointing, Eric. I want to come together as a people. People have attacked me and said, oh, Doug, you're for Kumbaya. Oh, isn't it nice? Well, no, I'm not. I'm for the American ideal, as we were talking before, which says that we will use democratic principles, freedom and liberty, as well as social and economic justice to uplift our people to

come together to present common values so that we are not in retreat and that our democracy does not end as the title of my book asks questioning. That's where I come from. So we do have different perspectives. Well, but I guess the way I see it is that the problem is that the so-called cancel culture taking its cues from the new progressive left, no longer. believes in free speech, which used to be, you know, a big Democrat thing, right? You know, a few decades ago, that was the thing. The ACLU, free speech was just huge. We're now living at a time where if you dare to say the wrong thing, you're canceled. You don't see that as coming from the left in others. How can you work with people if they are allowing that among their own?

You're raising now a specific question, which is the issue of, you know, on university campuses and some high schools, whether we are silencing free speech. And on that, I would agree that we are. And I'm very, very discouraged about that. I went to college at a time when free speech was the paramount value that was reinforced in the classroom and in the university every day. And I can only say that to the extent that Democrats are doing that, it's wrong. There are some Republicans who believe that there are democratic ideas or left-wing ideas that shouldn't be spoken about or you shouldn't study Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.

God knows I reject it in an unqualified way. But I believe it's worth studying to understand the problems and flaws with it. But that being said, am I for free speech in our schools in the academy? Yes, I am. I think that that's a problem. And to the extent the left is part of what you call the cancel culture, I'm against it 100%. Well, I mean, I know you are, and it's one of the reasons that I value you, because I just, I mean, the woman who is running for vice president of the United States was, I can't even remember whom she was grilling, but trying to make it sound like the people in ICE are very similar to the KKK.

We have senators who don't understand these things. We have senators, Diane Feinstein a number of years ago, when she was talking to Amy Coney Barrett, was like vilifying her for having Christian faith, in a sense saying that that's not consonant with being able to be an American justice or jurists. And I thought, this is an octogenarian senator who doesn't understand what we would consider the most fundamental issues of liberty. I see that as coming from the left, coming from

the Democrats, and coming from people that ought to know better. I mean, octogenarian senators are, that's not aOC in the squad. So that's why I get confused because I don't know how you can do business with people who aren't going to even agree on the basics of things like, religious liberty, which, you know, Feinstein and Kamala Harris and many others, they're in the Senate. I just don't know where to go with that. Well, what I would say is Kamala Harris, as an attorney general state of California, was forthright in prosecuting criminals being tough on crime, earned the disapproval of the left for being tough on crime and being willing to prosecute. Diane Feinstein has been throughout her career in articulate.

supporter of liberty and freedom. I understand that there might be specific issues and questions vis-a-vis Barrett where she and you would disagree, but I am somebody who's always been a big fan of Diane Feinstein and that she's an octogenarian is a sign that we can, as we both age, and I know you've got a longer way to go than I did to get there, but hopefully we'll be having this debate as octogenarians ourselves and being able to civilly agree to disagree, but support freedom and liberty wherever we would find it, Eric. Well, when I say octogenarian, I'm actually, the case I'm making is that if anyone should know better, it would be she.

I can understand it. You know, if somebody's in their 30s or 40s, they didn't get this. This wasn't on the test when they were in school. But I think, you know, somebody as senior as a Diane Feinstein kind of badgering Amy Coney Barrett for holding to, you know, natural law. And these are basic, basic things. And I simply think that that's what has happened is that...

Yeah, I think it's a question with Amy Coney Barrett of her originalist view of the Constitution, which I do not share. And I don't think Diane Feinstein shares her views about how religion and policy might interact. I think that's a fair subject for discussion. And Eric, I hope we get a real dialogue and debate as her confirmation goes forward. I think she probably will be confirmed, and my bet would be before the election. But I think the American people deserve a discussion really of the issues we're talking about.

Hang on there, Doug. Folks, we're talking to Doug Schoen. The book is The End of Democracy. We'll be right back. Folks, I'm talking to Douglas Schone. The book is The End of Democracy, Russia and China on the Rock. America in retreat. Doug, you were just talking about, you know, you hope that the confirmation, whatever they call it, the hearings of Amy Coney Barrett, you're hoping that we'll have a

robust dialogue. What worries me is that the left and the Democratic Party are no longer interested in that. There are folks like you who are, but generally speaking, what we saw at the Kavanaugh hearing, the idea that that was allowed, it was so horrifying to me as an American. I mean, I just have to say, there's one thing to be scorched earth. This was, this was beyond anything I've seen. And it just seems like there's a level of desperation and a hunger for power that is ruling the day. I mean, do you think that there's democratic leadership today capable of caring about a substantive conversation on this? I mean, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about, you know, the folks that are going to be overseeing these hearings. I think there are, to be fair, I think there

are some. I think though, and the reason I supported doing the confirmation after the election, one of the reasons is I don't think during a presidential campaign, it's at all an ideal time to have these kind of dialogues. I would have preferred to have the choice made by the next president, obviously that wouldn't and didn't happen. But that being said, we are in a situation where if I had to predict my hopes will more likely be repuls. placed by fears of what we're going to get in those all two brief hearings that will come, most likely in the next couple of weeks. I have to say, unfortunately, I agree with you. It's unbelievable. I guess the only question

is that it seems like the Democratic leadership is setting us up for not accepting the results. And obviously, if Trump wins, that it's going to be litigated and whatever. And so there are people saying that you cannot have a Supreme Court with eight justices because then you can get a tie. And so you need to confirm her because we're going to be in big trouble if this goes to the Supreme Court. And I can't imagine that that's like a rare, a rare case. I mean, it seems to me that it well could go there. Well, I would tell you this. I was very disappointed.

And I pray for his speedy recovery, as does Joe Biden and I think all right-thinking Americans speaking about President Trump. But I was disappointed that he has not reaffirmed his confidence in the American. American democratic system. Look, we need a fair count. I get that. There shouldn't be abuses. But I think the President of the United States should speak with greater confidence about our electoral system because it is one of the bedrocks of freedom and liberty. And to the extent we talk about anything, I think the President of the United States and his principal opponent should be committed to it. If there are abuses, and only if there are abuses, should they be taken up first in the states and then by the courts, if not.

But he sees the abuses as the strategy of the Democratic Party. In other words, that to me use the issue. And I think that, well, I mean, I don't want to believe it, but I do believe it. I believe that they very cynical in terms of, you know, the mail-in ballots. I mean, what what insanity to think that on that scale that we could trust mail-in ballots? I mean, you have to concede that. We've just got a lot of stakes, a lot of successfully, a lot of years, including but not limited to Florida. And so I don't concede the point. I very much hope that we avoid abuses.

And where there are abuses, I'll be the first one to advocate for oversight and if necessary judicial review. Douglas Shone, let me just say that I wish you were in a position to be overseeing this kind of stuff, because I do trust you. I wish I could say the same of some of the folks in the Democratic leadership across country, which I don't. But I'm so glad you're out there. Congratulations on the book. Brand new. Thank you so much. And of democracy. Really grateful for the conversation. Thank you. I feel the same way, Eric. Thank you for your thoughtful, candid, and I dare say,

very thoughtful views. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.