The Eric Metaxas Show - Dr. Michael Caparelli (Continued)

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

What is evil—and can even the most depraved among us find redemption? In this profoundly moving conversation, Socrates in the City host Eric Metaxas sits down with Dr. Michael Caparelli, author of Monster Mirror, to explore the dark and sobering case of David Berkowitz—the notorious “Son of Sam” serial killer. Caparelli, who spent over 100 hours interviewing Berkowitz in prison, offers a rare glimpse into the mind of a man who once claimed to be possessed by the devil but now professes a deep Christian faith.

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. It's a nutritious smoothie of creamy, fresh yogurt, vanilla, protein powder, and a mushy banana. For your mind? Drink it all down. It's nummy. I wub, I wub, I wop, I wap, vanilla. Here comes Eric Metaxus. Now, this might sound freaky to the listeners, and they'll go, you know, what is this devil stuff?

That has nothing to do with me. I think we come more in contact with the demonic than we even. realize for instance you behave out of character you say something you shouldn't say you punch a wall you kick a cat whatever it is you do and then when you're done what do you say when you apologize you say i don't know what got into me i'm sorry i don't know what possessed me or you say i got carried away that's interesting vernacular it almost insinuates a paranormal energy that met you at your the intersection between your choice and whatever that thing was in whipped up your irritation into rage, took the emotion to another level. So I think as otherworldly

as this sounds, I think most people, whether they realize it or not, are interacting with the spiritual realm and may even come under, I wouldn't say possession, but come under the influence of it, and behave in ways that they would never calculate, ways that they would never see themselves behavior. Well, one of the reasons I want to have this conversation, anybody who discounts the spiritual who discounts the dark side of the spiritual, which is to say the demonic, is foolish and ought not to do that. We have to go, you know, to the, we have to get positive here because he's caught. He goes to prison. Now, actually, before we get there, what did he say when he was caught.

Because I remember, like it was yesterday, watching, you know, Channel 5 News, Channel 11 news here in New York, and the look on his face when he's caught, can you remind us what he says? Well, the police had, you know, they had staked out his car outside his apartment in Yonkers on 45 Pine Street.

And they, I guess they were poking around the back seat and they saw in the, the back seat some artillery weapons guns and uh they had also saw i believe a letter that was going to be mailed and they knew that they had they had the right car this this was the suspects automobile so they waited and he had come out of his apartment building carrying a brown paper bag in the brown paper bag was the infamous 44 caliber okay because he was also i forgot to say called for a time he was called before 44 caliber killer. Yeah, that's right.

So he gets in the car. David tells me that he was on his way to commit a mass shooting. He was going out to the Hamptons. He actually went out to that same area a couple of days prior, maybe a week prior, and it was an outdoor disco. And he was going to just commit a mass shootout, which he had never done before. Never did that. He was going to die in a blaze of glory. And he thought, so he thought that he was going to...

It was a suicide mission as well as... I have not heard this. Where in the Hamptons was this outdoor disco? I'm not sure, but when he gets there, this is a week prior, it starts downpouring. And there was no rain in the weather calendar at that point. It was like an act of God that prevented that shootout. But he had thought about that shootout ever since that disappointment when it rained, went back home and thought, I just want to end it.

Because he said, Mike, you know, as much as people think I was gleefully. committing the crimes. And of course, the moment of the kill was gleeful because there is a pleasure in that. Violence can become just as addictive as cocaine. I mean, the neurochemistry behind it is very similar to that of using a drug. It can set off the dopamine system just like a drug can. So there were gleeful moments, but a lot of it, he said, I was just wanting to get caught. Even the parking incident, he believes, was a subconscious self-sabotage. Because David's a very meticulous guy. Very meticulous. It's hard for me to believe he parked in front of a fire hydrant,

as methodical as he is, without there being some self-sabotage on a subconscious level. So he's got the police on him, and they say to him, is this the son of Sam? So this is now, so he's coming out of the building with the 44 in a paper bag. The cops have been waiting a long time for him to emerge. Here he is.

I don't know how long if it was an hour or... Oh, I thought it was longer for some reason. I don't know. It might have been. I don't know the detail. of how long it was, but they found the car. They didn't have a whole lot of police waiting for him, believe it or not. In fact, the cop himself said he felt a little ill-equipped.

But by the time he came out, they got their guns on him. He's in the driver's seat, and they asked the question. They waited for him to get into the driver's seat. They didn't arrest him before he gets in? No, he's in the driver's seat when they point the gun at him. Okay. And what happens? I think they asked the question, who do I have, and he admits who he is, discloses who he is.

Other reports say, although David doesn't remember saying this, doesn't deny it but doesn't remember it. Other reports say that he said, what took you so long? It was one of the pretty famous catch scenes. Yes. And then, of course, a little while later, coming out of the Brooklyn precinct was the infamous Mona Lisa smile, where he had a smirk on his face and the cameras caught the smirk. And, of course, it was interpreted as sort of a sadistic arrogance. Yeah. He's given some insight to the smile.

He said that behind the smile was a couple of things. He said, number one, it was relief. He said there was a feeling of absolute relief that finally, you know, the police stopped what he couldn't stop. That the police had put, you know, handcuffs on this thing inside of him, this entity, this X factor, that he felt he had no control over. Now, look, when he says, he had no control over, do I buy that? Well, I still hold a man responsible that gets drunk and

kills a family behind a wheel. Because even though in the moment of the crash, he might have lost control, he still decided to ingest the alcohol, to bring him to that point. So David, I believe, is responsible. I don't think you can say diabolical reality at the expense of human responsibility, the two things have to go hand in hand. But in that moment, he says, I felt relieved. It was as if the police caught something in me that I couldn't catch. And then also he said he felt, he felt really, he said, deep shame. And it was this cockiness sort of masquerading, a coping mechanism, if you will, a defense mechanism for the shame, which is not atypical to human behavior.

When people get embarrassed, oftentimes, they overcompensate with a cockiness or an arrogance. So that's really, to me, the psychology behind that smile, what we were seeing when we saw that Mona Lisa Smirk. Okay. So the whole city breathes aside of relief. He's caught. He's put away for the rest of his life. So now he goes to prison.

What happens? He's in Attica. He's in Attica. Within a year in Attica, he's stabbed in the neck. He's actually fulfilling his duties within the prison, and he's emptying water in an inmate's jug outside the prison cell. And the inmate reaches over with a shank. reaches through the bars and cuts David's neck. I mean, they said it was a miracle that he survived.

Now, why did this prisoner do this? There's a lot of different speculations on that. David's not exactly sure. Probably the most believable explanation is the guy simply wanted to make a name for himself. But David never gave up the name, and that made him a star overnight in prison. You mean never gave up the name, son of Sam? Never gave up the name of the guy that's stab them in the neck. Oh, I'm sorry. Would a snitch? So he's known to be who he is. But when this guy

tries to kill him and almost succeeds, David would not say that guy did it. It wouldn't reveal the guy's name. So within prison, as you can imagine in the prison culture, keeping your mouth shut, not being a snitch, is highly

esteemed. Yeah. So David overnight, he goes from being an inmate that's continually harassed. I mean, in Attica, he had it pretty rough. I mean, they would make dog noises from the cell when he would walk by, constantly tormenting him about the demon story. In fact, it's one of the reasons why the New York Times published a story in 1979, David Berkowitz recants devil's story.

He said, I just got so tired of being harassed by the inmates with all the dog noises and being perceived as a lunatic that I said, you know what, the devil's story wasn't true. But then when he doesn't snitch, he doesn't give the guy's name up that stabbed him in the neck. That makes him a star overnight in prison. So. And he gains respectability. The years pass, he continues to be harassed. Not so much harassed anymore.

Now he's in it with the prisoners. Now because he's tight-lipped, they consider him somebody trustworthy. There's been a national focus on east. eating only the healthiest of foods, and that's great news for balance of nature. Their method of producing a vibrant nutritional supplement is second to none. While so many others use chemicals and additives, balance of nature is made solely from whole food ingredients. While other methods sacrifice nutritional quality for the sake of profits and volume,

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The promo code is Eric or please go to Mypillow.com. Mypillow.com. Use the code, Eric. I picture you in the soul. So, wandering what we're running. And falling down on your knees asking for sympathy. So what happens in the late 80s that precipitates his coming to faith? He's transferred from Attica to Sullivan County.

And when he's in Sullivan County, which is upstate New York, it's in Sullivan County that a Hispanic inmate by the name of Rick, about five years younger than David. Rick's in his late 20s. He approaches David in the prison yard. David would take walks alone on prison nights, even in the cold. He said, I would just go for walks. He said, I was in such a dark place. I'm still practicing occultism in my cell. I still got this covenant or relationship with Satan. and I'm walking through the prison yard and this young inmate comes up to me and hands me a Gideon Bible.

His name was Rick and says, Jesus forgives you. And I say back to him, you obviously don't know what I did. I'm beyond redemption. Jesus would never forgive me. And Rick's persistence overcomes David's resistance

for a period of six months. Rick meets David Berkowitz in the prison yard and continues sharing the gospel sharing his faith and David starts to take a liking to Rick. And as you know, people read us before they read the Bible. David's reading Rick. He's seeing his behaviors, seeing how he stands out from other inmates, noticing his peace and saying, you know, I want where Rick has.

And one day he goes back, he takes the Bible, he brings it back to his cell. And he reads Psalm 34. He says, I got on my knees. I just start sobbing over the sins that I committed. that's a big deal i mean five minutes ago he is you know praying to satan in his cell now he reads psalm 34 and starts crying about the sins that he has committed yeah right before that he said he got to a point where he got very angry with satan because he realized that he

was duped he said he actually believed at some point that satan was going to get him out of this and then in the process of his head clearing, this took 10 years of his head clearing. He starts to think, he pulled a fast one on me. And he's not bailing me out of this. And he took a whole lot more than he gave. Okay, this gets to the nature of evil.

What evil is. It seems to me, just listening to this story, right, it is at its heart, deception, at its heart. There's no truth in it. It is deception. It is a lie. it is a temptation to power that is never fulfilled. I mean, it's, you know, when Satan in the garden says, you know,

oh, if you'll do this, you'll be as God. Like God. So come with me. You know, come with me. It's like the white witch in Narnia. Oh, I'll make you, you know, co-regent with me. It's always the promise that if you come along with me, you'll get this and this and this. And obviously, you know, the dark forces will get.

you what is needed to bring you along to suck you in. But of course, in the end, you will, you know, you will not be ruling and reigning in any place you ever want to be. You'll be a slave in hell for eternity. I mean, it's the most just dramatic lie imaginable. But somehow you're saying that David Berkowitz, 10 years in to the sentence, kind of wakes up to this. That's, it's just a fascinating concept that he did. Yeah. I'm sure there were things that Rick was saying to, some truths that Rick was dropping on him. Because Rick is meeting him consistently in the prison yard, quoting the Bible.

Rick knows the Bible inside and out. So in that dialogue, you know, Rick is probably clearing the air that Satan is the prince of the year. And he's really muddied the airwaves. And I'm going to, I'm here to clear the air. Is Rick still living? You know, Rick disappeared. After David gave his life to Christ, he said Rick was suddenly transferred one day to another prison and never to be heard from again.

He's never heard from him again. You know, David smiles and says, I wonder if it's an angel. You know, not sure of that, but who knows? But it's interesting that we don't know who it is. We have no idea who Rick is. I mean, maybe if Rick is watching this particular show, we would reach out and tell you what, David's grateful for Rick because Rick is the one that introduced him to the gospel. Are you kidding?

My gosh. So, all right. So he starts bulls. falling in his cell. He said, you know, I just cried not because I was in prison. He said, a lot of the cries I had in my life was selfish. That cry was I sinned against God and I sinned against the adopted parents that speared no effort, no time, no energy in loving me, taking me in at four days old. I devastated families everywhere. So he said it was a cry that was strictly over his sin. Now, you know, probably like you, I'm thinking, boy, this is going to be a good

exorcism moment. This is going to be like a Stephen King novel. Like what happened that the demons were cast out? You know, did your eyes roll in the back of your head like a slot machine? Did your head spin like Linda Blair and the exorcist? Like, what happened here? And he says, Mike, it wasn't that way. He said it was just this cry for about an hour and a half maybe. And then I go to bed and I wake up. He said, and I wake up and there's a piece in my cell. It was as if thousands of pounds was lifted from me. I said, Dave, I would have expected a lot of noise, a big showdown, you know, with that many demons. And he said, my whole life was noise.

The streets, what I was doing, it was all chaos. It was all pandemonium. It was as if the quietness of the Savior overtook the noise and the chaos of the powers of hell. This is, you know, it's rare that we talk about these things in a way that's so on the nose, right? Because we talk about, you know, good and bad and evil. But this is really, we're talking about principalities. We're talking about actual powers. You say in the book something about evil energy during the infamous blackout of 77.

That's when, I mean, I remember this. not in New York at the time, but July 13th, 1977, the largest generator in New York City shut down the power lines were overtaxed. Nearly every neighborhood in the five boroughs went black. For the next 26 hours, 1,616 stores were looted on and on and on and on. It's just a crazy thing when we're thinking about the demonic, that this stuff is real, and there's a different, many ways to look at it. But we live in a world that, as I said earlier, that either it's sensationalized, you know, or it's just ignored. But you really do, you have to wonder what was actually going on behind the scenes. Well, I try my best in the book to paint the picture of that intersection

between the evil entity on the outside and the human nature on the inside. Because if you focus on either one of those things too much, that's where there's extreme, in either one of those areas, now we're off to some, you know, straw man version of Satan that can be easily disputed by the secularists.

Right. But when we understand that evil is not just the entity from without, but it's also in cahoots, it's working collusion with the traitor within, my own sinful nature. Understanding that intersection is what's critically important.

And I think most people today, because of humanism, the idea is we're wonderful people. We would never do this. I tell you, I got a lot of respect for Dr. Jordan Peterson. I've sat through his lectures, and I've seen him challenge the listener in looking at themselves and confronting what Carl Jung called the shadow,

what the Bible calls the flesh, the darker side. We'd like to think when we're really, reading history that we would be on the good side. But, you know, the Homo sapien, that species, human nature, Jeremiah 17 is right on. We are wicked and deceitful above all things. And most of us think we're wonderful people. And if we point out any evil, it's usually somebody else. But the tempest, the play by Shakespeare, the Duke of Milan, he says, this thing of darkness, I acknowledge, this thing of darkness is mine. And that's really what Monster Mayor is all about, is to say, like John Bradford, the Puritan said in the 1500s when they were executing a criminal publicly,

and they were calling him a scum, a scoundrel. The story goes that Bradford pointed to him and said, there but for the grace of God, so go I. That that man, you call him a monster, but I'm seeing a mirror, and only because of the grace of God, I don't walk in his shoes right now. So it's a book that's going to challenge the sanctimonious. It's a book that's going to challenge those, as you say, that believe Germany, you know, during the days of Hitler that the Germans were some type of, you know, abnormal people. No, they were morally virtuous people.

But even those that are morally virtuous because of the sinful nature don't underestimate what can happen under certain situational factors and under the influence of the demonic. And it's a particular, I mean, think of the irony. it's a particular feature of evil that we want to put it on someone else to keep it away from us so that we feel like I'm not like them. Virtue signal. The moment you say, oh, I'm not like them, you're more like them than they are. Okay, so Berkowitz, 1988, is it, or 87? 88. Do we know when in 88?

January. January 88. That's the same year I came to faith. He has this experience. What happens immediately following that experience? You said there's a visceral change. He feels it. What does he do about it? Well, he joins the, fortunately, there was a strong, tight-knitted group of believers at Sullivan.

He said he's so thankful for that because it was in that family of Christ, in that prison that he was disciples. With this guy, Rick initially. Yeah, Rick, for about, A few months. Rick, I think I want to say he disappeared about six months. But that, but he plugs him into the Bible study at Sullivan.

He helps him assimilate into that Bible, which David needed a lot of help with that because David's bonding ability, as we know, was just so limited. So being with people and being vulnerable with people and getting to know all this was a challenge from the time he was a kid. So he joins that family of Christ and it's there that he's confronted with the truth. his character defects are called out. He has to confront these character defects. But as you know, habits, they're like comfortable beds.

They're easy to fall into. They're hard to crawl out of. So it takes David time. In fact, here I am coming 30-something years after his conversion. And there's still more to the story. And there's still all the secrets that David Berkowitz is harboring. and David admits in the book some real difficult things to admit, which, by the way, for me, integrity is not just doing the right thing.

Integrity's doing the right thing after you did the wrong thing. And David Berkowitz has shown me that kind of integrity, that even when he blows it, he's able to say, you know what, I blew it there, I lied there. That's wrong. I've got to make it right. So even 30-something years after meeting with Christ, David Berkowitz is still a work progress. And I describe some of that journey in the book.

So at what point does he go public about his faith? Because I know that Stacey Moskowitz's mother, his last victim's mother initially was very disparaging of his claims and didn't believe that this monster who had murdered her baby was sincere. Yeah, I actually have the letters. It was a very emotional tumultuous journey, the friendship between them. It wasn't just all peaches and cream. I mean, there were moments when niece is very angry with him in the letters, and they're going back and forth, and David's trying his best to make right what he did wrong.

I mean, even the idea that the mother... Ultimately forgave him. I was going to say, just the idea that this woman is corresponding with the man who murdered her beloved daughter. She told her neighbor in Florida. I believe it was Miami. She moved from the city into Florida. She said the anger was eating me away like cancer,

and forgiveness was really the only way out. What a concept. Your baby girl, 20 years old, is murdered. And I've already lost her other daughter. I didn't know that. She had lost another daughter a few years prior. So the most natural thing in the world, is to be consumed with hatred, which she was for the evil monster who murdered your baby.

And she was. And eventually, she realized she's the prisoner of her own hatred. She realized that forgiveness, as you've heard it said, is setting a prisoner free and finding out the prisoner is me. She actually said something to that extent, the gist of that, to her neighbor. it's actually reported in, I think, her obituary or some newspaper clipping that told the story of her life and her death referenced the statement that she made to the neighbor because they interviewed the neighbor and the neighbor said

she got to a point where she was so filled with hatred and she looked at her neighbor and said, don't let hatred consume you like it consumed me for years. And forgiveness was really the only egress. It was the only way out. Isn't that interesting? Because, again, we want to think in black and white, like David Buchworths is a murderous monster

helping hating him is good and healthy. And you realize, no, no, that is a lack of self-knowledge. To know that's kind of the point of your book, that what's in him is also in you. And if you're not careful, you're going to go down a similar path. You might not end up being a serial killer, but you might destroy your own soul by giving in to self-executive. righteousness in this case self-righteousness i mean anybody that's watching that

wants to see david berkowitz's murder is something different than what's inside of them you're not taking if you're a christian you're not taking jesus's claim pretty seriously he put hatred and murder on the same scale the same scale in the day of judgment that they hate the hater will be judged as the murderer yeah so when there's equal ground between the hater and the murderer. And those are Jesus's words. It's going to really make us think, you know, how are psychopaths other people. Maybe there are no other people. Maybe all we have is human nature. You know, we think that there's some other nature, other thing out there. We come up with these categories. But I would argue, and I argue in the book, that no, it's just one nature, it's human nature. And maybe you're not going

to become a serial killer, but spend six months brooding over every resentment. Spend six months isolating from the community. Spend six months justifying every wrong you do. Spend six months be raiding yourself when you look in the mirror. Watch the monster that you morph into and the person that you become. So we'd like to think that this is other people. I could never be that. But I would say that it's like watering a seed. We have the seedling. We might not have committed the deed of murder, but we have the seed of murder, and if you water that seed and you germinate it over a period of time, you might be surprised at what you actually evolve or morph into. That's what Monster Mirror is all about.

Why did David Berkowitz consent to spend 100 hours with you interviewing him? Part of it with my friend Michael Francie's. what was it what what brought that about that you did this with him well i had just mailed him a book called dr jesus it was a book on mental health from a gospel perspective and he read it and he wrote me back shockingly now why did i send him the book because i've been working with prisoners for 20 years um my dad was in prison when i was a kid i found out about christ in juvenile jail so you know me reaching out to david berkowitz i wasn't some serial killer enthusiasts. I've been doing prison ministry for years. Our church that I

pastor was full of people from prison. So I had heard about David. I said, I bet you David Berkowitz would have appreciate this book. No idea of writing a book about him. And he mails me back in two weeks saying, I love for you to come visit. He said, I've been waiting for a guy with your background to tell my story. He said, I wanted somebody that was a believer, but at the same time had some understanding of the psyche and the breakdowns of the psyche and will explain what was happening to me in the 70s because I can't even figure it all out. So I visit with him and the timing of it was interesting. David had already had a real scare.

He had a quadruple bypass, had a heart attack. There's a real fear of God in him right now. For David, there are only two days that count this day and that day. and he knows that on that day, which he believes is coming soon, having that kind of health scare, makes you number your days. He wants to make sure he gets things right on this day so that he's ready on that day.

So the timing, the orchestration of his life and what was happening and the secrets that I think he was keeping inside of him, things he needed to talk about, I think set the stage paved the way for my arrival. And right away we hit it off. I mean, we had a lot of mutual things to talk about, a lot of familiar spots in New York City, Times Square Church, Don Wilkerson, my experiences with Teen Challenge ministry, just a lot of common ground.

My stepdad being from the South Bronx, it was just a lot of overlaps. And then the rapport was pretty quick, and we took the journey together. And really, you know, we're not just co-labors in ministry, but we've become friends. I told David, I said, listen, I'm going to be honest with you. Being your friend, now that I've been on YouTube and the book ranked number one on Amazon and true crime in October, I said, you know, getting publicity now. Being your friend is like being in a construction site. You're under the sign that says drop zone, rocks may fall on your head. So, you know, he gets a chuckle out of that, not to make light at all of his crimes or his background, but just the idea that it's in our day and age or our cancel culture.

it's not very admirable to befriend a serial killer and to call him your friend, especially when you're at a party and your cell phone rings and it's on speaker and it says you have a collect call from David Berkowitz coming from shargone correctional facility. Well, I mean, I guess this, I don't like to use the phrase begs the question, but this forces us to ask

because you're a Christian and I'm a Christian, is he a serial killer? In other words, the man that he is today, we know that he did these things. But on some level, this doesn't mean that he should get out of prison, and he certainly would be the first to say he shouldn't get out of prison. But on some level, he's very much not that man, that he's been redeemed. He may still be work in progress, as we are. but, you know, can he accept how much God loves him?

Does he have the ability at this point to understand that God loves him? Well, as far as your first statement about him being a serial killer, whether he is or not, I mean, on the books he is. Yeah, on the books, obviously, he is a convicted serial killer. There's no doubt about that, but I'm saying who does God see him as? In God's perspective, he is his son, he's a new creation, you know, behold, all things become new, any man being Christ. Does he believe that?

That's still part of his journey. Objectively, he knows, doctrinally, he knows I'm a new creation. He could cite the verses. He actually gave me his Bible that he's had for 25 years and all the verses that he's underlined and highlighted that have, he's had to tell himself that he is a new creation.

But subjectively, I mean, there are days, as you know, I still feel like the old man. You know, I still feel like that guy 208 years ago who came to Christ in a juvenile jail. It feels like that that dog is still there. That dog will still hunt. I've got to remind myself, no, you're a new creation. But see, that's the question. In other words, now we still today have the choice.

Do I listen to what God says or do I listen to what the devil says? the devil wants to put shame on me. It seems obvious that David Berkowitz is at this point such a humble person and so broken by the sin of what he did that there's a small temptation there to buy that lie. Yeah. It's a more sophisticated lie. It's a lie 50 years down the road that says, don't get too big for your britches. you're still the serial killer. Especially when you go back to your cell

and you have a TV in your cell that's about 16 inches, 46 channels, and you put on the animal channel, because that's his favorite channel, you put on the animal channel, but then you're flicking through and all of a sudden there's a documentary. And what's the documentary on? The son of

Sam. So it's in your face again. Once again, you're reminded of what you did. Now, David's not bitter over that. He sort of sees that as the chastening of the Lord. He sees that as a part of God's disciplining of him, whom the Lord loves, he disciplines.

So he accepts that. He's not embittered about that. He accepts that reality. But there lies the slippery slope. How do I accept that discipline from the Lord, but not fall into this place of self-deprecation in shame? Boy, is that a slippery ground? Because that's the flip side. That's the flip side of saying, oh, I'm so

wonderful. Yes. Other people are bad. how wonderful it is that I'm not like those scuzzy other people. I mean, either way, the devil will get you either way. And God calls us in the middle of that to himself. And so that's a really, well, it's really a picture of God's calling in each of our lives. We each have to navigate that. And each of us is tempted in different ways. Well, Michael Caparelli, Ph.D.

We are at a time, but I have to say I'm just so grateful to you for many things for the book, Monster Mirror, but also for your willingness to go on your own journey that led you to this journey with David Berkowitz. Tremendously valuable for everybody. So thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Folks, welcome back. It's my joy to continue my conversation with Robert Netsley, the CEO and founder of Inspire Advisors. And Robert, I'm a little bit like a broken record. Every time I have you on, I'm just excited that it's possible to do something.

Most people have money invested. They're not quite aware of it. The very idea that we can kind of wake up to the reality that we do have choices, that we can have God's money invested in things, not just that we approve of, but that are actually making it possible for you and other advocates to say, on behalf of these shareholders going to a big company and say, we don't like this.

Can you change this? And many of them are going along with that. That is absolutely amazing to me. What you just shared about Walmart and Kroger, this is great news. It makes me want to run to Walmart and spend money because I want to bless them. In this case, they're taking a big step.

Absolutely. And praise God. And there really is a movement. And when you think about Walmart, They employ millions and millions of people around the country or around the world. How many people shop there. We really are making a difference. And it's, you know, getting recognized beyond a scale that I could imagine.

So our firm were managing over $3 billion at this point. We've been ranked in the fastest growing firms in the nation. But just last week, the USA Today came out with their rankings and ranked inspired advisors, the third best financial advisory. firm in the country, across all categories, all states, and, you know, much to the chagrin of the, you know, extreme leftists who say that our viewpoints are backwards and on the wrong side of history, and we can't possibly deliver good returns or good results if we're managing things according to this antiquated, anachronistic Bible that we tote around, you know, and ostentfully

thump people over the head with. It's just ridiculous to them. But we, here we are, the top three, in the entire country across all firms, all sizes, every state, out front, leading with biblical values and advocating for these things that we believe in. And that's a win for everybody who invest with us, every client, every client who sent us a referral, everybody who has talked to their aunt Sally about where her money is and told her she needs to take a look at that too. People like you, Eric, who are so passionate advocates for this movement, we're, you know, it's getting attention. And, you know, in our industry, the wolf manufacturing industry is not exactly a conservative bastion. You know, Wall Street's not exactly known for that.

You know, conservative values, particularly in the social values. And they just, a lot of people just sort of stand aghast and they're confused. How could this be at all successful? But you and I know that there are still a lot of people in this country, probably the majority of people I'd imagine, who, do believe that these things are important and they want their money to be supporting the values that they hold dear. They don't want to give the vote of their dollar to affirm like BlackRock who is using it to advocate for things completely in opposition to everything you hold dear. So it just makes sense. And so as the word gets out and people are waking up, I'm just so thrilled

to see the results we're having like we've been talking about with Walmart and Krober, just keeping the abortion pill out of their pharmacies. It's huge. Look, these are monster wins. Monster wins. I can't even believe it when you're telling me this. I'm thinking, wow, is this possible to influence a gigantic, a BMA like Walmart to do the right thing not to carry this evil abortion pill? It's unbelievable, folks. And this is the free market. You know what? If you have an abortion or you want to go to whatever, you can do that. But we're in a free country, and Walmart can choose to do the right thing. And so we have to support those who are doing what we believe in. And so this is something, it's why I talk about this action point.

Folks, I don't know why you wouldn't do this. Go to inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. Please be a part of what God is doing.