The Eric Metaxas Show - Dr. Michael Foley

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

Michael Foley has written a delightful fun-facts collection featuring the origins of many of our Christmas traditions with a look into his book, "Why We Kiss Under the Mistletoe."

Ladies and gentlemen, he has a jar of peanut butter, and he's not afraid to use it. Here comes Eric Mat, Texas. Hey, folks, welcome. I'm especially excited about this program for many reasons. First of all, let me tell you, the title of the book I'm going to be discussing, it'll give you a hint as to where we're going with this. The title is, why we kiss under the mistletoe. The author is Dr. Michael Foley.

He's a professor of patristics at Baylor University. Patristics, I just happened to being Greek, pater, pater, emon, patristics, fathers, early church fathers, you know, those guys, right after the people who wrote the New Testament. So Michael Foley, welcome to the program. and why did you write a book, since you're a real theologian and a historian, why did you write a book called Why We Kiss Under the Missile Toe? Well, like a lot of kids across America, I grew up just being fascinated by Christmas symbols,

Christmas stories. I mean, there really is no other time of the year like this. But a lot of these symbols are not self-explanatory. Why do we deck the halls with bells of Holly and not box? Why the mistletoe? Why the Christmas tree? That's a question that has never haunted me. Why do we decorate it with Bows of Holly and not Boxwood? There are people scratching their heads right now, literally scratching their heads, thinking, I've never thought of that, nor do I care.

That's not true. I love this stuff so much. That's why I said I'm excited to talk to you because I love facts. I love, you know, trivia. I love origins and where things come from. So when you ask the question in the title, why we kiss under the mistletoe, maybe at one point I heard the answer to that,

but I have to say, I don't know. So, you know, can we start there? Let's start there. Yeah, it's a fascinating story. It has to do with the druids. They were fascinated by mistletoe. It was the strange magical plant that was green and gave berries in the dead of winter.

so they used it as a peacemaker. When two druids met under the mistletoe, they would make peace with each other. And Christianity came along and added their signature greeting of peace, which is the kiss. Well, I mean, it's extraordinary that I, you know, even when you mention mistletoe,

mistletoe is one of those things that seems to exist in a world all by itself, at Christmas time, I don't know if I've ever seen actual mistletoe or where one would find mistletoe or where mistletoe grows. Can you educate us on that? Because now I'm really wondering. Well, the funny thing is about this magical plant that is a symbol of peace and kissing is that it is a parasite. It attaches itself to the branches of trees. And if too much mistletoe grows, it actually can kill the tree. So it's kind of like a Yuletide kudzu, I guess.

That is correct. Well, listen, the, the categories of, you know, parasites and weeds, it's pretty, let's be honest, it's pretty subjective. So we're not going to blame mistletoe. It's a vine. This is what vines do. We're not going to blame it for doing what it does. But so, okay, that is where, that is why we kiss under the mistletoe.

when did that tradition start? Because, you know, again, modern Christmas, when we think of Christmas, we really don't go back much before the 19th century. A lot of the traditions we have, you know, the Christmas tree and these kinds of things, they're 19th century traditions. Does the mistletoe, if you mention the druids, obviously it goes way before the 19th century. But when did this become a thing at Christmas? I would say the early Middle Ages, you start to see mistletoe, being used in Christmas celebrations, but only in places that had druids. So it was basically England and Ireland that had these.

There are still a lot of countries in the world that scratch their heads when you talk about mistletoe to them. This started out as a very local practice. Yeah, as did many of these things. Well, so what are some other fun things in this book? Again, I just, I love trivia and especially holiday trivia to find out where we where these things come from. You mentioned Holly. Holly

does seem to be a plant that is mentioned over and over in our Christmas traditions, in our Christmas carols, the Holly and the Ivy. Boxwood never mentioned. Why is that? Well, so for one thing, Holly is an evergreen, so you need something green

in the dead of winter. But the reason why Holly was chosen is that the prickly edges of the leaves reminded Christians of the crown of thorns and the red berries of the drops of blood that the Christ child would eventually shed for humanity. So it's interesting that the colors of Christmas are red and green, and that's in large part thanks to Holly, but it's in commemoration of the crucifixion and not the

nativity. That's beautiful to know. And again, some of these things I feel like maybe I heard that once, but that seems to be something that we should all be reminded of. So this book is just load. Again, folks, the book is called Why We Kiss Under the Missile Toe by Michael Foley. What other things do you mention in the book that we can get people excited about? Well, one thing that really surprises people is the origin of the Christmas tree. It is often thought of, excuse me, as a holdover from pagan euletide practices. Right. But in fact, it is a quintessentially Christian invention that started in the Middle Ages,

interestingly enough, in commemoration of Adam and Eve. Now that is something I have never heard. I know, or at least I believe that the Christmas tree comes to us through, Germany. I believe Luther, about whom I've written a big biography, and I ought to know about this, so shame on me, but I believe it was Luther who had a hand in this. But then I suspect that Queen Victoria and her German husband, Prince Albert, in the 19th century, also had a hand in bringing this German tradition into the English-speaking world. So take us through that. That's right. But it really does start in the Middle Ages with something that was called mystery plays, they would stage

plays on December 24th, which was the Feast of Adam and Eve. And Adam and Eve were commemorated on December 24th, kind of in anticipation of the birth of the new Adam the following day. So they would have these plays. Via his mother, the second Eve. Exactly, exactly. So it kind of made sense to put these two occasions back to back. And on December 24th, oh, sorry. No, no, no, I'm fascinated. I love this. Keep going. So when they celebrated these plays, they had two trees on the stage. They had the tree of life, which was decorated with sweets to symbolize eternal life. They had the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which was decorated with sweets to symbolize eternal life. They had the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which was decorated with. red balls to symbolize the forbidden fruit or the apple? The red balls symbolized the forbidden fruit, the apple, that I've not heard. Okay, so this is now,

what part of the medieval era roughly are we talking about? 14th century. Okay, so middle, middle ages. Right. Okay, so, so those are the two trees. You said this is a mystery play that would be held on December 24th. which is the Feast of Adam and Eve. So we have one tree was the tree of life. Then we have the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with the forbidden fruit. And the third tree, of course.

You stump me. Oh, stop it. I think you were going to tell us it's the Christmas tree. I think you were going to say that. Oh, of course, yes. But it was the combining of the two other trees that led to the formation of the Christmas tree. that's history. See, that I didn't know.

Now, how do you come by? Actually, you know, we're at a time in this segment. When we come back, we're going to find out the rest of the story. Folks, the book is why we can send to the mistletoe. The author Michael Foley is my guest. Don't go away. So you're putting money away, saving for the future, for retirement, for your family. You're doing what you're supposed to do, right? Well, what if I told you that your 401k, IRA, and other investments are probably paying for gambling, abortion, and LGBT causes? Inspire advisors can tell you where your profits are really coming from. Do what I did. Go to InspireAdvisors.com and order your free customized impact report and find out.

Inspire is a recognized leader in faith-based investing. They can empower you to put your money where your values are. They stand by their biblical values donating 50% of their profits to Christian ministries each year. And they know that investing with Christian values has power. Get your free customized impact report now at InspireAdvisors.com slash Eric. And together, let's show Wall Street what investing with biblical principles can do. Inspire Advisors. Biblically responsible investing, visit InspireAdvisors.com slash Eric. That's inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. Hey folks, listeners to my show know I'm passionate about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their faith.

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freeing and healing captives in Jesus' name. Go to metaxustalk.com. Metaxistalk.com. Click on the Christian Solidarity banner. Metaxistock.com or 888-2533522. God bless you. Welcome back and Merry Christmas. Folks, I am talking to Dr. Michael Foley.

He's a professor of patristics at Baylor. He's written a number of accessible books like the, the one I'm holding my hand, why we kiss under the mistletoe, Christmas traditions explain. So we were just talking about the tradition of the Christmas tree. And I just love learning these things. So you're telling us that in the 1300s, there were these medieval mystery plays. They were put on December 24th. And you said there were two trees.

So take us through that again, because this is important in understanding it. That's right. So there were two trees, Tree of Life, decorated with sweets, Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil decorated with apples or symbols of apples like red balls. Eventually these plays were shut down

but the people loved them so much they basically combined the two trees and moved it into their homes and that is the origin of the Christmas tree. Now it seems on some level and I'm only always halfway joking on some level it seems some, it seems heretical to combine the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with the tree of

life. So we're not doing this to be, uh, theologically sloppy. In other words, they did this just to say, we want both things to be represented in the Christmas tree. And of course, the birth of Christ is the answer to the problem, uh, brought to the universe by Adam and Eve. That's absolutely right. And that's so well said, the tree reminds us of the reason why God became man, to return eternal life to us, but also to compensate for our parents eating the forbidden fruit. And of course, Jesus was nailed to a tree, was killed on what we call a tree. The cross is a type of tree. I love this symbolism. So you're saying that this became a tradition once the mystery play. Now, who shut down the mystery plays?

of the Middle Ages? Who did that? Well, it was probably church officials because they were getting out of hand. There were a lot of medieval performances that were just, you know, they kind of reached their late Elvis stage, and they just kind of got, you know, kind of wild and decadent.

And then when the Reformation came, the Protestant reformers did not like these plays. And then the Catholic Church was kind of embarrassed by these plays. So between the two groups... Did these plays devolve into something like a Saturnalia? I don't know what kind of, you know, lewd activities were involved, but I do know, for example, there were Christmas mystery plays about Herod,

you know, about the massacre of the Holy Innocence. And the guy who played Herod would just get increasingly crazy, and he would start throwing furniture around, and maybe even throwing chairs at the clergy in the audience. So when Hamlet complains about overacting, and he says, it out Herod's Herod, this is a reference to those late-decate mystery plays that Shakespeare saw when he was a boy.

I have never heard that. That is wonderful. He out-herods Herod. So Herod in these plays was known to be somebody who really choose the carpet, to use a more recent term. where did that come from? Where do we get the term, choose the carpet? We will have to look into that on a non-Christmas tradition show.

So, okay, so the Christmas tree then comes to us through the Middle Ages as representing the combination of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life, pointing to Jesus who died on a tree. But at what point, I mean, does Luther play? a role as I've been led to believe in the introduction of the Christmas tree? You know, I've heard that as well. I did not see, I think he was a proponent of it because this was a very popular custom, largely in Germany. But I don't know if he did anything to develop it. I'm just not sure. Well, I'll have to look into that too. I've got a lot of work here to do. What other traditions come to I mean, obviously the Christmas tree became popular in Germany, which is why it had to go through the German Victoria and Albert to reach the British world, the English-speaking world, to their west. But let's talk about some other traditions.

Let's move beyond the botanical world now into other things. What else is in your book Why We Kiss Under the Missile? Well, I'll tell you one of the most surprising things that I found in the course of research was the dark side of Christmas. I have a whole chapter on witches and demons and goblins and elves who were scary creatures before they were tamed to make toys for Santa. When Dickens has Ebenezer Scrooge visited by three ghosts on Christmas Eve, That's not a random date.

He was actually drawing from a very long and frightening tradition. Christmas has always had a fascinating dark side. I wasn't aware of that. I just thought, you know, just being at a Toys R Us on December 24th is about as dark as it could possibly get in my world. But talk to us about that. And I'm assuming this comes out of the medieval world, too, where, you know, gargoyles, and a lot of this stuff, I mean, I think this is the confusion that a lot of evangelical Protestants have with some Catholic traditions and things, because they seem to conflate the light and the dark in a way that seems unhelpful or confusing.

Well, there is no doubt that a lot of this stuff is a pagan holdover. winter was a scary time for our ancient ancestors long nights bitter cold food scarcity and so it was seen as a time of the reign of evil when ghosts and demons were out to get you and christianity of course was a game changer but only to an extent the light pierces these nights of dread it conquers the evil but the evil is still there. It's still lurking in the shadows in the dark and the desolation of nature. So even Christianity, it brings this joy in this peace, but it does so in the midst of this reign of darkness and evil. Yeah, that's interesting. And I guess, again, the reason it can tap into the pagan tradition is because the idea of, you know, the moment when the days, the days, begin to get longer. The winter solstice, you know, kind of ties into the tradition or rather the symbolism

of, you know, darker, darker, darker, and then suddenly lighter, lighter, lighter, and the hope. And I assume that's part of the reason we date Christmas around December 25th, because I don't think we have any records in the early church fathers that the event actually occurred anywhere near December 25th. Yes, the dating of Christmas is a big subject of controversy. It is possible that he was born on December 25th, depending on how you read the Gospel of Luke,

because it is possible and even likely that Zechariah was sacrificing in the temple in September. And then John the Baptist would have been born nine months later, which puts it in late June, and he was six months older than Jesus, which puts it in late December. but so it's possible but the bottom line is we don't know and to some extent it doesn't matter the ancients really did not have a high priority for remembering the particular day on which you were born and when birthdays were celebrated the date was often chosen for symbolic reasons so we don't know all right so what are what are what what other what what other

traditions do you explain in this book why we kiss under the mistletoe? Twelve days of Christmas is a very big deal, or I should say was a very big deal for much of Christmas history. So I do go into some detail about this period of unbroken merriment that is supposed to happen between December 25th and January 6th, which is the Feast of the Epiphany. And when did that tradition spring up? The 12 days of Christmas. That is as old as the five or six hundreds. We see very early references to this period of joy.

Fasting was prohibited during these 12 days. What about between meals? I fast between meals every day, every day. That's just because that's who I am. But so that's so interesting, the 12 days of Christmas, I mean, that's basically lost to us today. We no longer really talk about it. And we've moved in the opposite direction

where Christmas seems now to be celebrated, you know, four minutes after you cut the turkey on Thanksgiving, which I find sacrilegious, genuinely sacrilegious. We've got lots more ahead, folks. The book is Why We Kiss Under the Missile Toe by Michael Foley. We'll be right back. Folks, I've got to be realistic about my diet in December. It's got to be the worst month of the year

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Again, Neutrametics, N-U-T-R-A-M-D-I-X.com. Nutrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. Folks, welcome back. we're talking to the author of Why We Kiss Under the Mistletoe. Christmas traditions explained Michael Foley. Chapter 12 in the book is titled The Topsy-Turvy 12 Days of Christmas. It's not just a long carol. So let's go back to this idea of the 12 days of Christmas.

What do we know about it? What do you know about it that we'd like to learn? Well, it was a time of great merriment and mischief. and it was dominated by the idea of topsy-turvy customs, kind of like the Roman soternalia that you were mentioning a few moments ago. So in giddy imitation of the ultimate inversion in all history, God becoming a little baby. That's the ultimate topsy-turvy, God becoming man,

God becoming a helpless babe in the arms. And so in imitation of that, there were all kinds of social inversions. Masters and servants would change places for a day. Children and parents would change places for a day. Husbands and wives would change places for a day. It was a time of walking a mile in the other's moccasins. Is this in the Middle Ages? What period are we talking about?

Yes, middle ages. and into early modernity. And there still are some kind of rural sections of Europe that still practice some of these customs. I've never heard that. That's extraordinary. The 12 days of Christmas. What, well, I just want to,

there's so many things in the book. Should we talk about Christmas carols? I don't know where you want to go. Well, we were talking about the 12 days of Christmas, and we were mentioning Shakespeare a moment of. go, the play 12th night involves gender bending, cross-dressing. Shakespeare chose that word 12th night, because that was the vigil of epiphany when couples would cross-dress, when the men would dress like women, the women would dress like men. And again, it was a way of sort of walking in the moccasins

of another. And Shakespeare chose his play, chose the title of the play, because of this cross- dressing tradition. Yes, and this is not to promote transgenderism, folks, in case you're scoring at home, we want to be very clear that we stick with what the Old Testament says. But it's kind of interesting to me that, so this was on what, the eve of Epiphany, so January 5th, and that's where we get that idea. But you're saying that this is really roughly dead, except for that Carol, it seems that we wouldn't know about the 12 days of Christmas. We don't really talk about it very much. That's right. So the cross-dressing tradition, for example, is called mummery or mumming. And it does exist in some like sort of, again, rural parts. Newfoundland still has this tradition.

But it is by and large forgotten. Let's talk about some of the Christmas carols and where they come from. Which one do you want to focus on? Gosh, that was a fun chapter to research. So many fun stories behind different Christmas carols. My biggest surprise was the religious diversity of the composers. You know, even Unitarians contributed to, you know, our Christmas carols. There were several Jewish writers that contributed to our famous Christmas songs.

So, yeah, it's hard to know where to begin. I guess I always think of Silent Night, the idea that the organ was broken, and I don't know, what is it? I wrote about this once when I was working for Chuck Colson and Breakpoint that I don't know if it was 1803. It was right around there that an organ was broken and the choir master was tasked with writing something

that could be played with the guitar. And he came up with Silent Night. Of course, this is in Germany. But, yeah, it's just amazing how some of these things come to pass. I want to look at your chapters here because I don't want to miss anything as we're talking unless there's something that leaps out that you want to talk about. Well, Silent Night is a great carol to talk about. And you're right, the organ was broken.

They were planning to have a glorious high mass, but that required the use of an organ. So the priest felt really bad and he wanted to offer his congregation some consolation. So he dusted off a poem that he had written in, I think, 1816. It was anyway, he wrote this poem after the end of the Napoleonic Wars, when the guns of Europe were finally silenced. And we finally had a silent night. And so he took that poem celebrating the end of war. and he had a friend

had the music and that gave us silent night. I have never heard that. I love this stuff. See, this is what I'm talking about people. I love it. Well,

you talk about looking a lot like Christmas, other Christmas customs old and new. What are some that you talk about that we wouldn't be aware of? One of the things that surprised me were the alternatives to

Santa Claus and St. Nicholas as gift givers. There are a lot of other mythical gift givers around the world. Old women who bring gifts on Epiphany, for example. These were things that I wasn't aware of. That's my great aunt

you're talking about, pal. All right, we're going to go to a break. Folks, we're talking to Michael Foley, the book is Why We Kiss Under the Mistletoe. And I know we're going to about Zinder Claus and St. Nick and all this kooky stuff when we come back. This is the Eric Mataxis show.

Don't forget, ericmataxis.com. We'll be right back. While mortal sleep, the angels keep. Oh, morning stars. So you're putting money away, saving for the future, for retirement, for your family. You're doing what you're supposed to do, right? Well, what if I told you that your 401K, IRA,

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Oh, the ancient... Hey, folks, I'm talking to Michael Foley about his Christmas book. It's called Why We Kiss Under the Missile Toe. You were just saying, Michael, that there are other traditions of gift givers. Of course, St. Nick Christmas... I'm sorry, Santa Claus, St. Nick, Zinder Claus. We all know about Father Christmas, and we can talk about that. but you're saying there are others elderly women.

What tradition is that? Is that Baba Yaga or somebody? I'm trying to think I can't remember, you know, which folk tales I've read over the centuries. Yeah, well, you are the only person in the world who knows Baba Yaga. I keep trying to tell people I'm a genius. They don't believe me. Michael, they never believe me.

Okay, so do you want to start with Baba Yaga? Actually, I was going to start with Bafana because she's actually a little more popular in certain parts of Europe, especially Italy. What's the name again? Bephanna. It's a corruption of the word epiphany, believe it or not. Paphana. Bafana. Bafana. Okay, so who's Pafana? According to the story, she was a wonderful housekeeper who lived in Palestine.

And she was visited by the Magi on their way to give gifts to baby Jesus. Well, they were so impressed with her that they invited her to join them. But because she was such a tidy housekeeper, she said, let me tidy at my house. You go ahead and I'll catch up with you. Well, she took too long cleaning her house, and she was never able to find the wise men. So she has roamed the earth ever since looking, for the Christ child.

Sounds like a bummer of a tale. I told you. It sounds really sad, man. Sounds really sad, man. No, it's just so fascinating. All these traditions. Okay, and then you want to mention Baba Yaga again?

I do, and maybe you could fill me in. I don't remember. Maybe I can fill you. And you wrote the book, pal. I don't know, I don't know anything. I'm just, I'm just spitting stuff out. I want to, actually, I want to go back to when you mentioned elves and the dark side of Christmas and fairies and that kind of thing. How did that morph into,

I mean, I'm always fascinated that, you know, when we think of Christmas, we have these ideas based on, you know, Washington Irving, you know, who wrote the night before Christmas, or I'm sorry, Clement Moore, who wrote the night before Christmas. Actually, a couple of blocks from where I'm sitting right here on 15th Street in New York City. No kidding. So the night before Christmas it gives us this image of, you know, St. Nick, a jolly old elf and the reindeer. We get all this stuff from a poem that was made up, you know, two centuries ago. But it almost seems like received wisdom. Where do the idea of, where does the idea of Santa Claus and elves come from?

You gave two of the big names, Clement Moore and Washington Irving. they took Dutch traditions about St. Nicholas, which were in New York City because it had once been New Amsterdam. New York was loaded with Dutch. Now they've all moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, but they used to be right here. That's exactly right. So these are very popular customs in New York City in the early 1800s. Washington Irving and Clement Moore took these traditions about St. Nicholas, this fourth century bishop. And as far as we can tell, they added elements from Norse mythology regarding Thor and Woden. Thor, for example, after whom our Thursday is named, drove around in the sky in a chariot pulled by two goats. And the sound of the goat's hooves upon the clouds is what made thunder.

I'm not buying it, but go ahead. So they took this kind of as the prototype, and then they turned this into the eight reindeer and the sleigh. Who actually invented the idea of the sleigh? Was that Clement Moore? I mean, did he come up with that? Or is that – I'm guessing it's preceded because when I think of – I can't think of the name of the Dutch – Zinderclaws and his Moorish servant. Oh, yeah.

Were they the ones that came up with the flying sleigh? No. So all the St. Nicholas' customs, St. Nicholas had either a donkey or a white horse that you would leave hayout for in your shoes by the chimney. But no reindeer, no sleigh. There was a poet prior to Clement Moore that had a sleigh with two reindeer. and it's Clement Moore that invented eight reindeer and then gave them their names. And then it was Gene Autry who named Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. That's true.

It's incredible. We got a nice one. I just, I love, I love this stuff. Do you mention the poem in your book, the antecedent to Clement Moore's poem? I do indeed, yes. Can you tell us who was? I've never heard of that. Well, Eric, you may know that prior to writing this book, I wrote three cocktail books.

and in the process of researching those, some brain cells were destroyed. So that's a long way of saying, I don't know. It's in the book. Well, you know, it's very funny because speaking as an author, it's exactly the same thing.

I do these interviews, and there are people that, you know, they're way more familiar with my book than I am because I wrote it, you know, a few years ago or whatever it was. And when people ask me about something, I don't know, I have to look it up. But anyway, it is in your book.

It is mentioned in your book. We've just got 60 seconds left. Chapter 13 is title, Keep Going, Epiphany, Plow Monday, and Groundhog Day. How in the world, what is Plow Monday and Groundhog Day? How are they related to Christmas? Plow Monday is celebrated in some parts of England, and it's the Monday after the Epiphany, and it's basically the last gasp of merriment. And especially it's like groups of men that go around,

playing pranks on each other and, you know, engaging in mayhem. So that's that. Monday. Okay. And then how do we tie this into Groundhog Day? We've just got a few seconds left. Sorry about that. Groundhog Day is a custom that comes from the feast of the purification of the Blessed

Virgin Mary, which takes place 40 days after the birth of Jesus. So February 2nd is 40 days after December 25th. On that day, Simeon the Prophet made a prophecy that he would be a light. for the revelation of the Gentiles. So there were superstitions about light and darkness, which turned into a German superstition about a hedgehog seeing its shadow. Okay. I'm actually not glad we're out of time.

But folks, you can find out the rest of the story in the book about how Groundhog Day is a Christian holiday. Michael Foley, congratulations. The book is Why We Kiss Under the Missile Toe. Thank you. Hey there, folks. As promised, I want to get my friend Kevin McCullough back on here to talk about CSI. This is an insane opportunity. I beg you, take advantage of the opportunity to free a slave. There's nothing more significant. Anyone could do. No better Christmas present. You could give to someone to say that you've done this in their name. You've freed a slave. You go to metaxis talk.com. Metaxistococ.com. The banner's right there. So my first question for you, Kevin McCle, You were recently on here talking about the work CSI does. I thought I'd have you back so you could detail further the impact that is made.

So what do you say? Well, the great thing about what CSI is doing, and I love the fact that our shows do this together. We're both in the process of asking people to join the effort. And what's great about doing it at this time of year is that we are just around the corner from another major liberation with Christian Solidarity International. And what that means is that people are going to be freed and they're going to be allowed to go home. And as you think about the holidays and kind of what this is normally all about, going home is a big thing for a lot of us at this time of year. But imagine being someone who was kidnapped from your home when you were maybe six, seven, eight years of age. You're a girl.

Your parents may have been killed in front of you. your mom may have been raped in front of you. There may have been things that you've seen repeatedly in how people treated you over and over again for dozens of years. And now as an adult, you have the first opportunity this Christmas to be with people that love you, to be with people that have missed you, to be with people that have wondered if you were even still alive. That's the beauty of CSI at Christmas time. we have a liberation that is just around the corner and we can give them that new life, that return home, that blessing that we all enjoy when we go home for Christmas, we can give that

to these hurting hearts that have not felt it in years and in some instances ever. Kevin, where does the $250 go that it frees the slave? I mean, there's more. How are those resources specifically utilized? The CSI program is pretty straightforward. There are what we refer to as retrievers that are Sudan Arabs that want to have good relationships with South Sudan Christians. And they have been recruited over time, over the number of years the CSI has been doing this, to go into Sudan and look for slaves that are thought to still be alive, thought to still be there. At one point, there were 185,000 women and children that had been taken as slaves.

We believe the number is somewhere around 35,000 now, after years and years and years of CSI, basically being the lone voice in the wilderness saying, we got to do something about this. But these retrievers locate them. They alert CSI. They engage in negotiation, and they secure the release of the slave. Now, what the slave master will usually release the slave for, in exchange is a very hard to get cattle vaccine that helps their cattle withstand the extreme temperatures of what they are going through.

Many of these slave masters are ranchers. Cattle is their only means of material wealth or income. And so, you know, you can't be having cattle die on you and be successful. So the life of the cow or the bull is more valuable to. to the slave master than the life of the slave. And CSI is able to effectively say, if you'll release this slave, we will see to it that we get a vaccine for your cattle.

I know that everybody's in a different place, but everybody can do something. Whatever you can do, please, folks, join us in this beautiful, beautiful thing. Go to metaxis talk.com. You'll see the banner there. You click on it. It'll walk you through everything.

And right now, we're going to hour two. I guess I just want to leave the phone number with you. 888-253-3522, 888-253-3522, or the website metaxistalk.com. Metaxistalk.com. You'll see the banner. This is the right thing to do. Jump in. God bless you.