The Eric Metaxas Show - Dr. Tim Murphy | The Christ Cure: 10 Biblical Ways To Heal From Trauma, Tragedy, and PTSD (Encore)

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

From the Humbling Personal Experiences of the Author, Psychologist, Navy Veteran and Former Member of Congress Dr. Tim Murphy Shares “The Christ Cure: 10 Biblical Ways To Heal From Trauma, Tragedy, and PTSD”

Welcome to the Eric Metaxas show. I shouldn't tell you this, but Eric hired someone who sounds just like him to host today's show. But since I'm the announcer, they told me, so I'm telling you, don't be fooled. The real Eric's in jail. Hey there, folks. At Socrates in the city, we're doing a new thing. It's called The Question of where we interview somebody. I'm not talking.

We just let them talk on an important question. and we've got a number of those. They're all like nine, ten minutes long. We're going to play one of those for you right now. Here it is. We're entering the age of biology in the sense that earlier in the 19th century, there was an understanding of synthetic chemistry, the basic elements. The periodic table of elements wasn't discovered to the middle of the 19th century.

20th century, a huge impact from the age of physics. Now we're going on in a convergence of technologies to understand the more complicated realms of biology. And within those realms, everything from the basic genetics to the processes of human development to the functioning of the brain, for example, will be opened up, new possibilities will emerge and will be able to intervene positively or disruptively

in a lot of levels of human as well as all animal and plant life. Right now we can do basic things, employing genetic engineering, for example, to alter plants and animals to make more fruitful crops or more enduring animals for farm use. But when it comes to human beings, the questions arise,

well, how will we use these technologies in intervening in human life? And those are very challenging. What kind of possibilities will emerge? It's unknown at this time. But certainly there will be many. And I think, for example, we're going to learn how to control

the aging of gray hair and so people won't have to have gray hair. We'll probably learn how to avoid wrinkles in skin, so people will look younger than they are. We may be able to use specific drugs to enhance certain powers in the human mind, but a lot of it's going to be more complicated and people suspect because everything is involved

with everything else, and so you change one thing, and you're going to alter inevitably a lot of things. So we have to approach it. we have to approach this very carefully. In the large arena of bioethics, it isn't just the scientific dimensions that are important, but the human meaning of the application of the science.

And people often are drawn toward positive dimensions of some intervention. But the human body is so complicated and so interrelated in its processes that when you gain one thing, you're liable to change other things at the same time, not just biologically, but socially as well, and the sense that a person has of their existence. So personal and social disruptions could take place. We're just at the early edge of interventions in human existence.

We don't yet know how effective they will be. We may not actually need to change genes. We may just use small molecule drugs to alter a lot of, things in human existence as desired, but each one of those things is going to come with potential benefits and potential dangers, and that's going to be a very big challenge, and we need to think comprehensively, biologically, personally, socially, and spiritually about the meaning of these interventions. The very word human comes from a Latin root that's the same as humus meaning earth or soil and of course the biblical description is that God gathered up the dust and formed Adam.

And so we are the creatures of the red dust of the earth. Metaphorically, that is a very great significance when you think about biology because we are fashioned in such a way that we fit like a hand made to fit an existing glove into the very world into which we dwell. we need to understand the complexity of that fit that the natural world and the human being are a unit. And when we disrupt the natural world, we're disrupting our environment.

When we disrupt ourselves, we may not fit in with the world in which we've been brought forth. The implications of that can be extended to say that we are creatures of the earth, and therefore we need to be able to be. humble within it and it's very interesting because that word humble also comes from the same root as human and humus earth or soil so we are creatures of the earth and we ought to be humble within it because we're creatures of the earth because we are formed and fashioned in a way that

comports with that coordinates with the nature of our environment it's very easy to think because we are capable of intervening that we can proceed along the lines of our particular desires, our appetites, our desires, and ambitions, without understanding how complex these systems actually are. So there's a lot of imagination about where we might go with our biotechnology, ranging from drugs that make us capable of certain types of things that we'd like to be able to do better. The primary example of that obviously is steroids for better athletic performance, but there's all sorts of imaginations

for what we might be able to do. And then on to things like brain computer interfaces, where we could control the video game, for example, with our minds without moving a finger. But it's somewhat dangerous to think in these terms because any intervention than the human body is going to come with both positive and negative impacts. And people, it's easy to have this vision

of a kind of technological transcendence. This is what's promoting a lot of advances in social thinking about biotechnology. But we need to be very careful how we intervene because we don't really understand our lives. We're framed by nature. We're also constrained by nature. And nature guides our lives in ways

that especially when we're younger, we don't appreciate the wisdom of our life process. So, for example, many people among my students, many of the young people, no longer want to have children. They sort of, for some reason, see that their opportunities in life, their fulfillment will be greater without children.

But almost everybody I know, in fact, everybody I know that has said to me that those children have turned out to be the most meaningful part of their life, even if it's sometimes difficult. And if you really, relinquish that experience because you think you know better than natural life processes, you may end up cheating yourself out of the most profound experiences of human life.

In other words, we're framed and constrained. Desires, like sexual desire, for example, are directions, not destinations. There's a certain drive for fulfillment of sexual desire, but nature has something else in mind. Nature has babies in mind. Babies as children, meaningful, engagement, nourishing life in its next generation. This is where life is more wise

in its processes than we individually are as individuals choosing our destiny. The most fundamental question behind biotechnology is the deep question of where do we come from and what are we for as human beings and a collective social culture and as a spiritual being. I was asked recently if you had one thing to tell somebody one piece of wisdom, what would you say?

And it would be wisdom, of course, it's not simply my own wisdom, but I would say, seek he first the kingdom of God, and all else will be granted unto you. The kingdom of God is intimately involved with our biotechnology because there are many, many urgent needs in our species and in our wider world where we can intervene positively with biotechnology. That's the role of ethics to see where we can use our technologies and what we can use them for in a way that brings into being more fully, the kingdom of God. So the point is that God is good, and that's the root of bioethics. We need to ask what is good, and what is good is the comprehensive, cohesive understanding of the whole, not what is good for one thing only and for one purpose only.

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If you've listened to me for any length of time, you know that I would say whatever your problem is, Jesus is the answer. But that can just be a religious cliche. What does that mean Jesus is the answer? It depends on what your problem is. If you have psychological trauma, Jesus is the answer. But again, what does that mean? That means a number of things.

But I have somebody on today who I'm going to speak about that with. He is Dr. Tim Murphy. Former congressman, psychologist, Navy veteran. He's written a book called The Christ Cure. Dr. Tim Murphy, welcome. Great to be with you. Thank you. This is big stuff.

So tell my audience, what is this book that you've written? Well, I recognize that trauma affects about 70% of the population. And we usually think of PTSD something that soldiers have, but also first responders, policemen, firefighters, paramedics, frontline medical people who work in emergency rooms and burn units, but really can affect anyone when we face a life-threatening situation or major a people in our life, like a divorce, a financial disaster, a diagnosis of a terrible illness in a child. But what's happening is we have a society that has become softer. Everybody seems to want a diagnosis of attention disorder or gender dysphoria or obsessive,

compulsive disorder or spectrum or depression or anxiety. And look, there are real psychological concerns. But what happens is we're getting worse as society because we're only looking to perhaps the latest meditation or bad or going to see a counselor, which can be valuable, but forgetting about faith. And here's the bottom line. We know that those who regularly practice religion, not just to have some kind of esoteric belief, but regularly practice religion, number one, and number two, do something spiritual and religious

at least four times a week. Their prognosis and their improvement in the area of psychological concerns, particularly depression, anxiety, PTSD, their prognosis is far, far improved. And now some try and write it off as well, that's just because they're taking time every week in quiet meditation or to hang around other people. That's not it. There was a role that the Lord plays at studying, studying the issues in the Bible, those principles on the Bible, not just as stories, but understanding them, has a massive impact. And my field as a

psychologist, Eric, most psychologists identify themselves as agnostic or atheist. And yet most people who go to see a counselor, who are themselves believers, want their counselor to talk about it. And the other thing is among clergy, about 85% of clergy say, I have no training in this. I'm not sure what to do. I'll give you a Bible quote or I'll talk to you about it. And so my book is written as a handbook for the broken and those who love them and as a guide for clergy and counselors to understand that nexus between biblical and religious teachings and psychological principles to get towards healing. So that's why I wrote this book. What I say over and over is that when we're talking about faith in the God of the Bible,

ladies and gentlemen, this is reality. We live in a world, as Dr. Murphy has just said, that pretends that it's not reality, but it is reality. And so if you live in a world and you insist on a secular model for everything, you're going to get stuff wrong. You're not going to be able to succeed. And again, this is just something that works itself out practically, even if you don't believe it. I mean, Benjamin Franklin and many of the founders observed that religious communities were more able to be self-governing. So even if you didn't believe what they believed, you'd say, but people who are crazy about Jesus, this seemed to be able to govern themselves better than people who aren't.

They just would observe this. I remember David Wilkerson when he started Teen Challenge and World Challenge and to help drug addicts. The government, this has to be, I think, in the 70s, did a huge study because they had tremendous success in their programs, which were totally Jesus-based, totally faith-based. And the government report called it the X-factor, because they had no explanation. They simply knew that people who believed in Jesus and worked the program that way had radically, I mean radically, like 10 times greater success rates. You see this in prison when you have prison ministry, recidivism rates, dramatically different. So, Dr. Murphy, what we're talking about here, of course, is reality.

But we live in a world that pretends like this is just something that you're interested in, and maybe it works for you, but it's not based in reality. But you have seen it work in dealing with people who have trauma, and that's why you've written this book about it. Absolutely. Time and time again, I've seen it among soldiers, sailors, air, and Marines, who have struggled with terrible scenes, or as a paramedic once told me, the worst day of your life is every day for me or a cop who told me, I cannot unsee the things I've seen.

But what happens is there's lots of psychological techniques to calm you down, calm down your system, which is a fight or flight mechanism. And that's true. But healing is a whole other matter for us. And it is getting through that. It was interesting. You said that about Franklin. I'm sure you know John Adams said that our Constitution was designed for people of faith.

That's inadequate for anybody else because people of faith has something to reach towards. isn't just hope as a concept. There is something over the horizon that they are fully aware of. We are fully aware of. And that can help us. Look, I've had struggles with my own issues with depression and alcoholic father and abuse and things like that. But healing comes from saying, I've got to forgive, forgive myself, forgive other people

to let the Lord forgive, unburden ourselves with that, and then really embrace and surrender ourselves to faith and trust and grace. These things are concepts that secular counseling cannot teach and a secular world cannot be there. As you know, there's literally thousands and thousands of books on bookshelves about how to make your life better, whether it's selling more products or just feeling better. And those that have to do with faith are the ones that can really make a big difference in people's lives. Constantly researches. Well, so this book, of course, with the title, The Christ Cure, I don't think you're overest,

selling it because you know you've lived this and you see that this is real that it works. Who did you write the book for, basically? Well, for those people who are struggling and still trying to find a way, the full title of the book is that Christ Cure 10 biblical ways to heal from trauma, tragedy, and PTSD. And so those folks who have faced trauma and tragedy are dealing with the debilitating symptoms of PTSD, which can be depression, it can be high levels of anxiety, sleep, problems, problems with relationships, broken marriages, insomnia, the whole host of things that go with that. And people who continue to struggle with that, I want them to know there is a way

that has been proven for a couple thousand years. Now, my book doesn't get preachy. So it's, although I know a lot of folks in prison ministry and even football coaches who use it as their Bible study. But it is saying, in particular, tracking the life of the Apostle Paul, how we learned lessons from this and instead of dismissing them and say, well, that's old stuff. That's written thousands of years ago is recognizing it's relevant to us today. So the person, for example, who is, who just feels I cannot get better. Well, Jesus came towards the man, the lame man at the waters of Betheson and said, do you want to walk?

He didn't say, let me have some compassion for you. I'll say a little prayer every we will walk away and help things get better. He really said, you've got to make a decision here. And it's a matter of the faith. And how many times Jesus said, your faith has saved you? It's believing as part of that. Now, I don't want to dismiss psychological counseling as a method. It is important.

There are many counseling methods, which are very valuable to help people heal. But we know that those who are involved in the faith base is too much better. So those folks who are still struggling with who the book was written for. Now, you talk in the book also about your own depression. You just referenced it. this is something that you have lived yourself. Yeah, it's not fun. It is a point where depression is a lot of anger turned inward,

where we just feel there's not a lot of hope and keep trying various kind of things that are my thing. I kept striving and think, but if I just achieve one more thing, maybe I'll get there. And my list, my resume looks really good. I've written books. I was a state senator. I was a U.S. congressman. I passed the definitive mental health legislative reform in the country.

but each time I was struggling. I joined the Navy while I was in Congress because I recognized being in Congress is not the most functional place in the world. And I wanted to help people. And so I did those in the Navy too, working as a psychologist. But he's time feeling, I'm not there.

I'm not happy. I'm not satisfied. And having those struggles and trouble relating to people in ways that was fulfilling. I was doing a lot of things with faith and doing a lot of things with my work, but depression continued to eat away at my life and really messed up a lot with a struggling with my marriage and other aspects too.

And it was really a matter when I finally said, that's it. I have got to change. I mean, backs against the wall, this is it. Or I should say not just backs against the wall, but toes on the edge of the bridge where you're saying you've got to make some changes. And that's where I made a difference from me. When we come back, we'll be talking about that. Folks, I've been clear.

I have struggled with these issues as well. And it is not fun. It's very real. It's terrible. Jesus is the answer. But the question is, what does that mean? That's what we're talking about. We'll be right back. Folks, welcome back.

Can you change your arm? The first in life? I'm still free. Take a chance on me. If you need me, let it be now. Folks, welcome back. The book is the Christ Cure. Dr. Tim Murphy is the author,

Navy veteran, psychologist, former member of Congress. And you've lived this, Dr. Murphy. This is real. What led you to say, I need to write a book about it? Is it just that you think that there are people out there who don't know how to get help or they don't know about this? They're not hearing about this? Well, Eric, I don't want this to sound somehow like, you know, tongues of fire came on me.

I'm not saying that. But I, from my own purpose, my own healing, I literally sat. down on my keyboard and said, I'm just going to write every day and write about struggles and healing. And these things came out. I would read everything I could get my hands on about the Apostle Paul, recognizing that he was, if someone should be a patron saint of folks with trauma, it should be him. I mean, he was beaten with Rod three times. He was stoned and left for dead. He was given 39 last six times. He was run out of towns. He had to escape, tried the whole list. goes on for him. It says, what was it about him that did he have PTSD or not? And what I found out,

Eric, was that nobody had written a book about it. Nobody had written a book about why Paul didn't collapse. Why was he not suicidal and alcoholic and philandering and gambling and the whole list of problems that go on? And what I recognize is these are the things we need to do. We need to build up our personal resilience. We need to be resistant in the battle, what he called, continuing to endure and persist. We had to have a method of recovery, and we had to renew, as he said in Romans 12, too, to transform by renewing of the mind.

So as I'm writing, more this is coming to me. I'm no biblical scholar. It was just coming as I wrote and organizing and editing and building this up. So that's where it came from. And I would, in my work with my own clients, I would be talking to them about these concepts and became clear that using these things can be transformative for people's healing.

So that's where it came from. I just typed the letters. So any mistakes are mine. But the truth is there, I say from the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Well, look, the point is this works. And that's why, again, I'm, you know, just a big part of my life is this thesis that we live in this secular culture, which is ridiculous. It really is like saying, we live in a culture that's going to, we're going to.

never going to talk about math. We're anti-math, but we're going to try to live and build buildings and do everything, but we're going to put this thing to the side. That would be crazy, and it would make you, it would cause a lot of trouble. And that's kind of the situation we're in with the secular culture. The idea that you could live without God or without even postulating God as a part of reality and following his will as being a part of the reality in which we live causes a lot of problems. And of course, mental health is at the heart of it. So do you, let's talk about some of the things that you do talk about in the book. You said there are 10 specific things. Let's just touch on some of them. Well, so the first one is one of resilience,

and that is certainly everybody who's been in the military, understand this. But throughout the book, I say you have to make choices. And under resilience, for example, you're building strength versus weakness. You're building a community around you versus being alone. You have, you choose to understand what solitude is. Those are all very important. The other one is, the next one is resilience. This is where you're choosing courage over succumbing to fear, where you recognize you need humility. Humility is really important in that if you want to change, you have to be humble. I remember when I was working with the Navy SEALs teams and I had asked the commander of one of the units of SEAL Team 6 of all.

And so what is the number one personality trait you look for in people want to be part of SEAL Team 6? He said, humility, because they have to understand what their limitations are what they can do. The vigilance is also important there for resilience, for resistance. The next one is in recovery. And this is where you have to have, what's very important is choosing guilt over shame. Now, that's really important. We think, why would you want to choose guilt?

because shame means I'm broken beyond repair. God made a mistake when God made me. Guilt means I made a mistake. I'm taking responsibility. I will reconcile that. I'll do what I have to do. Under shame, there's nowhere else you can go. But another choice under recovery is forgiveness.

And forgiveness is there's three parts, these six simple words, God forgives, others might, I must. And people who are really struggling with, maybe it's a self-inflicted trauma or something else, I'm being punished for this or why would God do this? It's important we have to be able to forgive ourselves, but many people think I can't. And what I did was too bad. And I understand that through all this, God forgives us anyways and has done that and we'll do it again for us.

And if we're hollering out for the forgiveness of others, we may not get there. You know, this Eric, you may say something to someone, they may hold a grudge for decades. And at some point you have to say, I've got to shake the dust off my sandals and move on. but this fourth stage of renewal, and I report again Romans 12, too, to be transformed by renewing of the mind. As I call these the not-so-secret secrets that Paul told us about, you have to really accept faith in God. We're going to go to a break. When we come back, I want to hear about that. Before we go today, I want to remind you of our friends at the Herzog Foundation. If anybody listening to this program today is interested in homeschooling or you've thought about it, you don't know whether you can do it,

You're interested in getting your kids out of public schools because you understand that what they're learning there is not what you would want to teach them. Maybe you're interested in Christ-centered K-12 education. Our friends at the Herzog Foundation are there to help you. They're not asking for anything from you. They want to help you. Herzog Foundation.com is their website. Herzog is H-E-R-Z-O-G. Herzog.

Herzog Foundation. com. And I've said this, and I will. will always say it. Education is everything, folks. If these kids, you know, that are getting this Marxist indoctrination in public schools, if they get the truth, this sets them up for life. They are the hope for the future to use a cliche. So go to HerzogFoundation.com. HertzogFoundation.com will be right back. Welcome back talking to Dr. Tim Murphy. The book is the Christ Cure. So you were just laying out an acronym for us,

Dr. Murphy. Go ahead with that. Repeat that if you would. Sure. The acronym is the word faster. People want to heal faster. So here it is. It's fitness, attitude, sleep, training, eating, relaxation. Real quick. We know that people who are physically fit, cardiovascular activity,

cardio activity, strength training, that stimulates the brain to heal. The actual generation of new brain cells and connections between them because there's a thing called brain, derived neurotropic factor which is released when you're working out. And you've got to create new connections in your brain, or otherwise you stay stuck in the

ruts of where things were. Another thing is when you are working out, it burns off the stress hormones of cortisol or cytokines or other things that are eating away, cause inflammation in our body, directly relate to anxiety and depression and insomnia. These things, we know that actually works better than medication from mild to moderate depression. attitude of the mental attitudes we have which can be self-defeating irrational I'm no good nothing will be good for me I can't make it in life everybody should do what I want them to do and all these faith-based beliefs towards all the core of a lot of is changing sleep is important

because we know people get regular sleep of about seven to nine hours a night it gives the brain time to heal every night the body needs the brain needs that time everyone to flush out stress hormones and a lot of waste. Otherwise, it builds up to tau proteins and early dimension, cognitive decline. Sleep is critically important, but people with a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. So we make recommendations in the book of what you can do about that.

So fitness, attitude, sleep. T is for mental training. The brain has to stay active. And a lot of times, you know, Eric, if you've had times of depression, you just want to shut down. It's hard to keep thinking. We don't want to do anything. People become sedentary. Just flip the TV on and binge watch something or do nothing. That is not

good. And so I always recommend people master something you already know, get better at it, and take on something you don't know. This activity of the brain is very powerful. And that's why people were not that involved in biblical work. Read the Bible, study it. And you'll learn lessons in there, but it's also stimulating your brain to make connections. The next one is healthy eating. You know, there's thousands of books out there on what to eat right and what diet to use and, you know, you'll get rid of the processed foods, et cetera. As it turns out, the healthiest diet seems to the Mediterranean diet. And let's see, who you see the Mediterranean diet? St. Paul. Paul. He did the olive oil and the fresh fish and all those foods were so very important. So I tell people, get rid of the

foods that are causing harm to your body. And relaxation is both meditation, those quiet times to calm your body down, not be overstressed and always be reaching for your phone or technology. And also mindfulness, just being fully aware of what's around you. Now, those two things, things in meditation and mindfulness. The best meditation is prayer. And being mindful, I tell people get to a church, get to a place of worship. And sometimes the best thing you do is just sit there and be aware and listen to God and let God listen to you. But be quiet during those times. That daily healing process of religious practice, those things are powerful. So add them all together. These are the principles that they don't come from me. They don't just come from science books. They really

come from the Bible and teachings we've known for thousands of years, but we've got to put them into practice. So who do you think would most benefit from this book? I mean, it seems like most people would, but I guess you're saying that a lot of people are walking around with various degrees of trauma. They've seen things, they've lived things, and somehow they're crippled inside as a result of Now, I would often say that people flat out need deliverance. It doesn't matter whether you're a Christian. A lot of people have psychic wounds that demonic entities would attach themselves to.

Do you get into that in the book? It doesn't sound like you touch on that stuff. Well, I do someone. I mean, evil is real. It's out there. And we shouldn't deny it. And so that is very, very important in the context. And that's a very important part of healing, particularly when I talk about vulnerability.

We are all vulnerable to this. sin again. We are all vulnerable to weakness. Every day in our life, we reach for the apple of the tree in the Garden of Eden and bite it and wonder what went wrong. So you have to be very vigilant to that because when we're weak, evil sees the doors wide open and come swinging in. And our society today, especially under the last administration, taught that that that's what it was. I mean, you think of the number of children whose bodies and lives were ruined by psychologists saying, oh, you must have gender dysphoria. And I remember talking to psychologists too to saying, well, what do you do about issues of religion? Well, we can do.

counsel the kids on that. Well, are you a believer? No, then what do you counsel them? Well, that God loved everybody. Yes, true. And Jesus loves everybody. But it also said, but you've got to change. And telling kids and telling other people, that's what's all about. I think those are other voices of evil where in our nation and our world, we've gone down those directions. So for people who are struggling and trying to find a way, I want them to understand this is a book of compassion, but it's also a book that sets out the demands, the rules that the Lord set up for us. He didn't just say, sit back, you know, that's it, you're good. He said, you got to work at this. But in working at this, we can get better. And that's why I say, when I list my own struggles in the book,

and I don't get into too much whining in that stuff, but I say it was a very difficult book to write, but a very hopeful book to read because it tells people we can all get better. Well, it's a big deal. And I think people are, they want a how to. And I think that, and I think that that's part of my criticism of the modern church is it dispenses platitudes. It'll say Jesus is the answer. And they think, okay, what does that mean? Can you break it down for me? Well, Jesus loves you. Well, what does that mean? Please explain it to me. You have to live it. And I think that a lot of evangelicals in particular, they have become so fixated on the idea that we're not saved by our works, that they then leap to the next level of a lie and say, therefore, I don't need to do

anything, I'm good, I believe in Jesus. And folks, that is theologically not just wrong, but deeply harmful. You have to work the program. You have to, you know, if you go into AA, they don't say, hey, there's nothing you have to do. There's things that you have to do. But if you do those things, you'll be blessed. So you're talking about that. And we're at a time. but Dr. Murphy, it's just great to get you on here. Thanks for writing the book. Folks, the book is the Christ Cure. I think we've said enough about it that you get the basics.

But I think we've long needed a primer, so to speak, on how to live in the times in which we live with the difficulties that most of us have. Just grateful that you've written the book. Dr. Murphy, thank you so much. Can I just mention my website is Dr. Tim Murphy, dot com, D.R. Timmerfey.com. And I do a lot with a book, podcasts, and other writings. People follow up. Please be in touch. Thank you so much, Eric. Dr. Timmerfey.com. D.Timmerfey.com. Thank you so much. God bless. Nothing to do but for out. Rainy days and Mondays always.

You have questions about God? Maybe we can answer them. Here is our new segment. Everything you always wanted to know about God. But we're afraid to ask. Hey, folks, this is the new segment. What's the new segment? It's titled, well, it's the title of, I've written three books, not as well known as some of my other books. The first one is called Everything You Always Want to Know About God, but We're Afraid to Ask. And it's Q&A on all kinds of questions about God. I wrote a sequel called Everything Else, You Always Wanted to Know About God, We're Afraid to Ask.

The Third One is Everything Always Wanted to Know About God, Afraid to Ask, The Jesus Edition. And we thought it would be fun to do a segment on the program. where I go back and forth with my interlocutor, who is Grace Payne. Grace, you're going to play the role of interlocutor. Are you okay doing that? I am. I'm ready for it. You ready?

Would you ask the question? Yes. Well, the big question is, does God exist? Well, my joke answer in the book as well, yes, he certainly claims to exist. God claims to exist, yeah. And if he does claim to, that isn't quite enough of an answer, it doesn't prove that he exists. So how can anyone prove that God exists when we can't see him? Right.

Saying that God claims to exist is a kind of a cheap joke answer. But yeah, the serious answer, this is important. And I want to honor people who have this question because it is a good question. Does God exist? Like, you know, I remember when I was not yet a Christian, the man who was really leading me toward God said, you know, he should ask God to reveal himself to you. And I thought, how can I ask God to reveal himself to you to myself when I don't even know whether he exists? So it's a fundamental question. But I'll say this. To answer the question, we have to understand we live in a deeply materialistic culture. We're so obsessed with the physical and the materialistic culture. We're so obsessed with the physical and the material. that we've pretty much lost the ability to think logically about anything outside the realm of the physical and the material. What do you mean by that? Well, I think most people in the world throughout history have known that there's a realm beyond the physical, beyond our five senses.

Most people have innately sensed that there is something beyond what we're. we can see, touch, smell, feel here. I think remarkably few people would argue with that. But many people somehow believe there is no way reasonably to discuss anything outside the material or physical realm. So they therefore conclude that everyone can have whatever opinion they want on a spiritual issue as though there might not be a reality beyond the physical. Because if there is such a thing as a spiritual reality, and this is what I say in the book, obviously, then there is no reason it shouldn't be as solid, not literally, but intellectually, as a physical reality.

In some ways, it's even more solid. C.S. Lewis talks about this. So there's no reason we shouldn't be able to discuss it the same way we discuss anything else, like flying a plane or painting a landscape or like physics. It's real. Just because it's not physical doesn't mean it's not real. and if it is real, it is subject to logic. So we shouldn't talk about it as though it is hopelessly subjective. I think we can say that just because it's mysterious doesn't mean that there isn't some kind of objective reality there. And we can talk about it and it's not whatever I want it to be or whatever just because we can't see it. So then it is possible to prove that God exists in a way. Well, I guess it depends what you mean by prove.

I think there are people, I just recently, for a Socrates in the studio, interviewed William Lane Craig, who is a genius philosopher, and he can give you philosophical proofs of God's existence in the way that Aquinas could. I never found those compelling. So it depends on what we mean by proof. I think if you're open-minded, yes, ultimately, you can come to believe that God, exists and again depends what we mean by by proof exactly you know