The Eric Metaxas Show - Dr. William Hurlbut : What does it mean to be human in the age of AI and gene editing?

Episode Date: July 26, 2025

Eric sits down with Stanford bioethicist Dr. William Hurlbut in a riveting Socrates in the City conversation on science, morality, and human dignity.Don’t miss this mind-opening exchange.

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. They say it's a thin line between love and hate, but we're working every day to thicken that line, or at least to make it a double or triple line. But now here's your line jumping host, Eric Mattaxas. Hey there, folks. Welcome to today's show. It is Friday, the 25th of July. For much of the summer, on Fridays, we're doing Socrates in the city Fridays. And I had a conversation not long ago with a brilliant bioethicist at Stanford, an extraordinary man of faith who works in the field of bioethics.

Tremendous conversation. The weirdest thing is that he looks and sounds dramatically like Harrison Ford. So if you go to the YouTube page and you look it up, you'll see what I'm talking. It's amazing, actually. And he has been mistaken for Harrison Ford. He doesn't look so much. He's not like a double, but you kind of think, like, is this Harrison Ford? It turns out it's not.

I just want to be clear. He's a bioethicist and absolutely amazing guest. I had him at Socrates in the city years ago, and I said, we've got to get him back. So we're going to play that conversation in both hours today. So his name is William Hurlbutt. And I also want to say that we are doing a full court press. There's an emergency because of the floods in Texas to get aid to people that are just devastated. Their lives have been devastated.

And food for the poor is reaching out to them, helping them, working with local churches. They came to us and said, Eric, would you ask your listeners to help out? And I know many of you are just such good-hearted, kind, generous people that I feel free to do that. And so in a moment, I'll be speaking with Paul Jacobs. I'll be airing my conversation with Paul Jacobs at Food for the Poor to let you know how you can help. But it is an emergency. So before we get to Socrates in the city, this is my conversation with Paul Jacobs. Please tune in and please do what you can.

You know we've been doing a campaign with Food for the Poor. this is an emergency, so much so that I thought maybe we can get our friend Paul Jacobs on to help explain what is going on. Paul, welcome back. No, it's great to be back. You know, it's nearly three weeks since the devastating floods in central Texas, and the need has never been greater. What is food for the poor doing? I mean, I've talked about this, but it's, you know, it's hard for people to get their heads around this because it's such a nightmare. You hear about these floods. You hear about children dying.

But then I think most of us think, well, that's that. I don't know, you know, what is there to say? It's a horror. It's a tragedy. But the reason you guys are there is because the tragedy is ongoing. They're people suffering right now and they need our help right now. Yeah, that's right. You know, more, but hundreds have lost their lives and probably almost the same amount that are still missing.

I think this attention, this tragedy has caught our attention because of the children and the families and this community. The Guadalupe River was literally the center of these three communities. where more than 30,000 people lived, and it was the churches, the businesses, the ministries, and schools, and of course, these camps. And food for the poor, while there's thousands of people there in the response and the recovery effort, food for the poor is working with the local church, church partners on the ground that have been responding to help families with emergency relief kits, everything from tarps to cover their belongings, to women's care kits for women and girls to be provided for, and even

something as simple as baby diapers for small children who have become very vulnerable in this disaster? Well, so what is what is the area that's affected? I'm not clear. I haven't seen much video or anything of this. In other words, are there towns that have been wiped out? I mean, I know that there are individual businesses and homes. And where are the people who have been displaced? Where are they staying, many of them? The Guadalupe River is in the center of Kirk. County, Curville, Ingram, and Hunt, number of cities in the surrounding areas. You could say it's probably just out, just about 45 minutes to an hour just outside of San Antonio area, if you're familiar with the San Antonio area.

But the thing about this is, while you may not have ever focused on this community on the map, it is for Texans, a very thriving community. One of our ministry partners, excuse me, one of our staff members here at Food for the Poor, lives in the San Antonio area. Used to work in Kerrville and this Kerr County area. Matter of fact, he was personally affected because the camp mystic, which was the camp where a lot of those children

who were there in summer camp lost their lives. One of the camp directors, a friend of his, also lost his life. So this is very personal for us. This is very personal for my colleague, Kevin Mayne, in San Antonio. But this area in the Guadalupe River has quite a few people

that have been displaced. hundreds of homes, completely destroyed businesses, they're going to take their, it's going to take a long time for them to get back on track. But right now, we're focused not necessarily on the long term, but really the immediate need of getting families, the recovery efforts, and the recovery efforts helping them with the emergency kits they need to just get through another day. Okay, so folks, if you want to help, you can go to my radio website, metaxis talk.com. Metaxistalk.com at the top of the page.

There you see the banner. And we're asking you every $50 purchases one of these emergency relief kits. So some of you can do multiples of that. But whatever you can do, we need your help, desperately need your help. And what is the partner that Food for the Poor is working with on the ground there? Do you know the name of that Paul? Jacobs, the name of the partner. We, well, that's the great news.

We work with the local church, church partners, ministries that are set up in San Antonio as a distribution site. We've already sent the first few pallets of emergency relief kits, like the ones you just mentioned, that these families for $50 could provide a family with emergency kits. And it's going through pastors, local ministries on the ground. Matter of fact, I was supposed to right now be in an interview with them just to kind of get an assessment of what's going on at this very moment. Unfortunately, as you can well imagine, they are very caught up with meetings and a lot of things that are going on on in the ground.

They could not change. So we've had to postpone that. But you can just imagine that's how busy things are and how frenetic and why you're needed right now to help our ministry partners and churches on the ground. I have a phone number here, which I want to give in case anybody prefers to call. But folks, anything you can do, this is tax deductible and it is an emergency. So the phone number to call so you can give is 844-863-4673, 844-863-4673. I mentioned the radio website is metaxis talk.com. You'll see the banner at the top of the page. Or if you want to text my name to this number, you'll get the link.

Metaxus is M-E-T-A-X-A-S. You can text it to 5-1-55-5-5-5. Again, text Metaxus, M-E-T-A-X-A-S, text Metaxus to 5-1-55-5-5-5. Text Metaxus to 5-1-55-5-5-5. The phone number, again, is 8-4-6-3-46-7-3, 8-4-6-7-3. Paul, any final thoughts? Yeah, very much. It's community effort.

It is going to be a community effort in the response to help each and every one of these families. We have seen on the news. We've heard it through our ministry partners on the ground. And we have seen thousands of dollars poured out through the Metaxis talk listeners. You know, those of you that are listened to this program. And maybe if you have not heard of this, maybe this is the very first time of hearing about food for the poor or you're hearing about the efforts that through this radio program is going to help those families, we need you to join this community of those who are desperately in need,

vulnerable children, families, just like you, who need your help right now. Well, I'm glad to hear that it's through the local churches. I know a lot of people who are wanting to help or, you know, would be comfortable with that because they know that local churches know what's going on in the local area, and they have compassion and wisdom. And so I'm grateful that Food for the Poor is partnering with the local churches in the area. So, folks, I'll just say it again. This is an emergency.

Food for the Poor has come to us asking us to please ask you to help. So again, metaxis talk.com is the website mettaxistocot.com at the top of the page. You see the banner, Help Texas. We're asking you to do what you can. If you can't do much, just do what you can. And it is direly needed right now. So God bless you as you give. Thank you.

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Join me in taking balance of nature and use my discount code, Eric, to get 40% off plus free shipping this week only. You've got to use my discount code Eric. Call them at 800, 2468, 751. Use discount code Eric. Order online at balance of nature.com. Use discount code Eric to get 40% off this week only. Folks, just to remind you, the flooding in central Texas has taken over 100 lives.

Many people still missing. We on this program are asking you to join us in Food for the Poor as we rush. Emergency Relief. to devastated families, please call 844-863-4673 or text Metaxus to 51555 to give right now, or you can click on the banner, metaxus talk.com. Thank you. Welcome to Socrates. In the studio, we are in New York City. And my guest today is Dr. William Hurlbutt, who is, let me see. Senior research scholar and adjunct professor in neurobiology at Stanford University.

He was earlier in the century on the president's counsel on bioethics under the presidency of George W. Bush. He heads up something called the Boundaries of Humanity, Humans, Animals, and Machines. We'll be talking about that today. The larger question we want to ask today is, is what is a human and what are the boundaries, or are there boundaries of humanity? So Dr. Hobart, welcome. Thank you. Great to be with you.

What is the boundaries of humanity, humans, animals, and machines? I know it's a project. What is it? Well, it's a multi-year, multi-million dollar project at Stanford that I lead, and the whole name is The Boundaries of Humanity. humans, animals, and machines in the age of biotechnology. So it's an effort to contend with the challenges, the opportunities, and the dangers of our advancing technologies to help guide our civilization to use these new powers

for positive purposes and not to relinquish or diminish what is special about our human nature. I think it should be said at the outset just to frame things that, just because we can do something through advanced science, let's say, doesn't mean we ought to do that something. And those questions became particularly pointed, or the larger question became pointed 20 plus years ago. I remember George W. Bush had just become president, and the question of stem cell research, fetal stem cells,

cell research came up. And I guess that's when you first came to my attention. You were our guest at Socrates in the city 20 years ago. It's amazing to think of it. But that was, I guess, the big question, the big bioethics question of the time. But it leads to all kinds of other questions. I want to get into that in the time that we have today. But why don't we start there with that question of bioethics with regard to fetal stem cells? What are fetal stem cells for example? Well, actually it was embryonic stem cells at that point. What's the difference? Well, the embryonic period is the first eight weeks of development. That's the scientific meaning. But in

those days, the reason the council was, or at least the precipitating motive for President Bush setting up the council was the cloning of Dolly the sheep and the suggestion that we could also clone human beings, develop embryos, harvest stem cells from those embryos and use them for medical research and for therapies. And then kill the embryos. Yeah, well, that would be, and with the destruction of the embryos. And it was...

Well, I'm sorry, but I was going to say, and the reason this presents a bioethical challenge is that people like you and me think of human embryos as human beings. So the idea of creating these things to destroy them or creating these human embryos to destroy them, even if there is an upside, is a problem. You know, it's interesting because it's hard to realize what that was going on then. But on August 9, 2001,

President Bush made his first address to the nation on embryonic stem cell research. and it was at that moment he announced the formation of the council. And it's because we were entering a new era. We had just sequenced the human genome, more or less completely, and thoughtful scientists immersed in the research arenas recognized that once we had the human genome figured out, that would help us understand what you might call the raw materials

out of which human beings and all other species are formed. Once we knew more about the DNA, that was DNA codes for proteins, basically, and proteins are the structural elements of the body and the operative functional elements of the body. And we realized that once we had this formula for how the ingredients were produced, we needed to figure out how it was knit together and formed living organisms, So it was actually the moment of transition between genetics and developmental biology. And in a way, this moment with embryonic stem cells was just the prelude to a whole era that's now unfolding 20 years later into enormous challenges that are somewhat under the radar because we're so preoccupied with our economic issues and our geopolitical issues that we're not acknowledging these large overarching changes to,

human possibility, challenges of human life. I mean, there's so many things to talk about, and we will, and so many questions that I have. But let me start with a silly question. Have you ever been told that you look and sound like Harrison Ford? Oh, that's very nice. I get that about once a month, actually. In fact, one time I was in the Newark airport, and some guy came running from about 50, yards away and he stopped about 10 feet from me and said, oh, you're not Harrison Ford.

He was very disappointed. Yeah. Well, we are not disappointed at all. I just want to be very clear up front that we're not disappointed. When you bring up bioethics, the issue of bioethics, I think I first started thinking about this. I read an essay back when the Atlantic was still doing some journalism. It was by Roger Shattuck, and he was a professor in Boston.

but he was talking about these kinds of things, and he was not a person of particular faith. Are you even familiar with his name? I wouldn't assume so. But he was writing about this kind of thing, and it was so fascinating to me because I never really thought about it seriously. It had been for me,

and I think it's for many people, the realm of science fiction. You know, we can create this or we can create that. But we have come to a place clearly now where this is very challenging. So what are some of the things, let's talk about, you know, CRISPR technology and some of the other things that you've spoken about

to, you know, acquaint people with what we're dealing with. When you say these were things you hadn't thought about much, most of us hadn't, because for all of human history, embryogenesis, the process of the development of the human being through the process of gestation in the womb, was out of our control. And then in 1978, the first, in vitro fertilization baby was born,

a laboratory-initiated human embryo, implanted in a womb, developed to full term, and baby was born, Louise Brown. I remember very distinctly the very day. I heard on the radio this had been done, and I heard the Pope saying, quoted as saying, while we welcome Louise Brown into the world,

into the human family, we must express grave concerns about how she came to be. And the Pope was acknowledging something that was very much on the radar of certain people that we were entering a whole new realm. And where that realm will take us is yet to be fully disclosed, but it's already evident that it's going to create enormous ethical issues that have to be contended with as having some possibilities of positive use, but also grave dangers about the instrumental use of human embryos,

mass-produced production of numbers of human embryos used in research or experiments on developing humans in such a way that they're too risky. And this has been especially brought forward recently by advances in genetic editing. In 2018, it was announced that a science, scientists in China had edited the genetics of two little embryo twin girls, and they had been gestated and born. So it was the first instance of what it's called germline, that's heritable changes, in the genetics of human embryos. They were brought into the world, and that genetic change will be carried in the entire future lineage of that family.

Folks, right now in Texas, families are reeling from this historic flooding. Food for the poor is delivering life-saving relief, but they need our help. I'm Eric Metaxus. Call 844-863-4673 or text Metaxus to 51555 to send emergency supplies or visit metaxistalk.com. Click on the banner. Metaxistalk.com. Thank you. Folks, just try to imagine losing everything overnight.

Your home, your car, your loved ones. That's what's been happening in flood ravage, Texas. As you know, we on this program are partnering with Food for the Portisand emergency kits to those who need them desperately. Go to metaxus talk.com. Click on the banner. Metaxistalk.com or call eightyxas talk.com or call 844-863-4673, 844-8663-4-6-7-3, or text metaxis to 5-1-55-5-5. Thank you.

Well, let's just so we understand the specifics of it, the concept of that is not automatically horrifying. In other words, the question is how were these genes edited, or what was edited in or what was edited out? Can you clarify that? Yeah, in this case, he edited a gene that was for a certain receptor that allowed the HIV, the AIDS virus, to enter the cell. And he did this, and I'm the American who knew him the best, because I did a project, a four-year project, with Jennifer Dowdna, who recently, she discovered this technology called CRISPR,

which is a very effective form of genealibated. editing, and Jennifer and I did a four-year project on the ethics of gene editing. And one of the people that spoke to one of the first conference we organized was this guy named Heucheng Hui. Kazindhai. Yeah. And I was the convener of the meeting, but I got to know him a little. But what do you call him? J.K. J.K. I was going to say, when I watched the video, because it's very difficult to say the Chinese pronunciation, but so this

young man, brilliant, that you got to know, named J.K., was the one, in fact, who did what you've just described in 2018. So J.K. came to our first conference. He was working with mice and monkey embryos doing germline changes

that were heritable and would continue in the next generation. And he came to see me a few months later at Stanford, and he wanted to talk about the ethics of it. And one of the first things he said to me, in fact, The first thing. I met him in the, this is a funny story because he said, can I come and talk to it?

I said, yeah, let's meet at the student union. We can have lunch. I figured I'll spend an hour with him and go back to my office. I didn't have anything scheduled. I was just going to do reading and stuff. I ended up spending the whole afternoon with the guy. But the first question he asked me was, so you were on the president's council. And he said, and you guys talk about the embryos and how you shouldn't do research on

embryos. That's just a little splinter group in America that is, you know, fanatical about that. And I said, oh, no, JK, maybe half of Americans are concerned about research on human embryos. And even the ones who are in favor of it think that the scientific possibilities outweigh the moral concerns. But nobody should take the meaning of early stages of human life of no ethical concern. And I remember he held up his fingers and he said, how can something that tiny be so important that it's more important than my little two-year-old daughter if she got sick and could be helped by the research? And I said to him, well, JK, your little two-year-old daughter was once that big. See, and he sort of, he was startled by it. But it's what we don't think about because

we never had to think about embryos before. And now we have to figure out what does this mean that we start out as a single cell that's almost microscopic, and we divide and divide and form and express ourselves. And it's a very challenging issue.

So what this scientist, whom you called J.K. did, was not itself objectionable, was it? In other words, What did he explain that to me? Well, it's objectionable on several levels. Jennifer Dowdena, who discovered this effective technology, helped, she saw it as very potentially problematic,

and she convened the National Academy of Sciences, and they had this first international summit on germline genetic engineering for human beings. Right. And they, as a community, they issued a statement saying, it was too early to do this scientifically because there were dangers involved. And before it was ever done, it should be received some consensus from the social community. Okay, so he leapt ahead and did it. So he could be the first one to do it.

But you're saying at least we don't know what the implications are or what the ramifications are. So, but he left ahead anyway. Now, he wasn't thinking about that. That's right. And he actually, I liked talking with him. He was a very idealistic guy. He was only 33 years old. And he came to America and he went actually to see, I think it's Menlo Park in New Jersey,

where the Edison Museum is. He thought Thomas Edison was forging forward. And he thought the guys who started IVF were forging forward. and that he, too, was going to be bold and advanced science against all he considered to be these, you know, these sort of inhibiting ethical concerns.

And I said to him, JK, don't do this. You don't do it apart, in any case, don't do it, apart from the position of the National Academies that it needs consensus, scientific approval and social consensus,

because if you do, you'll, humiliate yourself, you humiliate your country, and you'll damage the future of science. Folks, just to remind you, the flooding in central Texas has taken over 100 lives. Many people still missing. We on this program are asking you to join us in Food for the Poor as we rush emergency relief to devastated families. Please call 844-863-4673 or text Metaxus to 51555 to give right now, or you can click on the banner, metaxus talk.com. Thank you. Folks, as you know, this is a real crisis. Over 129 are confirmed dead. Dozens still missing in Texas. Eric Mataxis here urging you to help us get

emergency supplies to flood victims, partner with us, and food for the poor. Call 844-863-4-6-73 or text Metaxus to 51555 or click on the banner. at Metaxistalkystalk.com. Metaxistalk.com. Thank you. And I even, and I quoted the Gettysburg address. I said the wisdom of America is the collective wisdom of the people, of the people, by the people, for the people. And I even sent the Gettysburg address to him afterwards in an email.

And I thought, what are the Communist Chinese Party? Think of the Gettysburg address floating through the Internet. But he went ahead and did it anyway, and it turned into a great deal. tragedy for him. He was imprisoned for three years and humiliated everybody. Well, again, just so I'm understanding this, so he edited the gene line of these twins. So these twins are born, and he has affected their progeny and their progeny's progeny, but not necessarily in a negative sense. Well, nobody quite knows. I've talked to him since he got out of prison.

and he tells me that the twins are healthy, and there was another pregnancy at that time, so the three now. And he says they're all healthy, but nobody knows the consequences of this. And he's not apologizing. He says, I'll apologize when there's evident negatives. But this is not something to play with.

I mean, the human being is a very complicated balance of biochemical factors, and he just forged ahead. But beyond that, Eric, it's not clear that human beings should intervene in the human genome like this. There's so much that's unknown. I just want to say I'm actually surprised.

You mentioned this last night, as we were talking privately, that you said the Chinese government arrested him. And I thought that strikes me as a positive thing. I would expect precisely the opposite. I would expect that the Chinese communists have no ethics. They want power.

They don't have any grounding in a biblical view of the human person. To them, just as to the Nazis, people are objects to be acted upon. Those who have power, can use that power to act on those. And, you know, the Nazis extracted gold teeth from the Jews.

The Chinese communists are harvesting organs and making money, they don't have an American and not a biblical view of the sanctity of the human person. So I really am surprised that the Chinese government, perhaps in deference to world opinion, did this.

Is that why they did that? Well, the interesting story there is that JK came to see me at Stanford in October 2018, and he said, oh, I got a really important paper coming out. And I looked at him, I said, JK, you did not implant human embryos in a woman's womb, did you?

He wouldn't tell me, but I was very suspicious. And I alerted some people high up in our scientific and governmental establishments that something might be coming down. But he said it was not going to be revealed until January or February, three months later. But what happened was the second, international summit on human genome editing was taking place in Hong Kong at the end of

November 2018. And as I was going through the airport in San Francisco to go there, I got a call from Antonio Regalado at MIT Tech Review. And he said, first thing he said was, what do you know about JK? And I said, oh no, he's implanted embryos, hasn't he? And he, so I knew it was going to happen. As I crossed the Pacific, I bought the Wi-Fi. It never works, you know. So, but six, about a half an hour outside of Hong Kong, it clicked on. And every newspaper in the world headline was germline edited twins born in China. Well, the Chinese thought it was great. And they, you know, pumped it up as the positive headline. But because this was a international conference in Hong Kong

when I got to the hotel there was nothing but negative reaction to it and rightfully so and very quickly the Chinese press turned against it and said no this is very bad and they removed all the positive articles and yeah there's a whole different attitude

and whole different cultural tradition going on now at least in the modern China I gave a talk for the 60th anniversary of the founding of Renman University, which is the communist university in Beijing. I've given talks five times in China, and I gave a talk on human embryos and genetic engineering and the era of developmental biology. And I warned that there were going to be huge ethical concerns coming about not just the experiments with human embryos, but later stages as well. And afterwards, the top bioethicist of China reacted to my talk to this huge audience of students.

And he said, well, Chinese tradition built on Confucius says you're not a human person until you're born. And I mean, think of what that means. If you could use human beings in their fetal stages, seventh, eighth month of gestation, as experimental subjects. that's pretty horrifying. Well, and listen, I don't particularly care what Confucius had to say, but I do know that, you know, just as the Nazis were able to say that anyone said anything or Luther said something, they're capable of saying, well, Confucius said not till age 10, actually, now that we look at the earlier manuscripts.

So this is one of these things where it seems to me that it becomes fundamentally difficult. You can say in the United States, for example, we have these rules, but to prevent scientists in other countries from doing this, that to me is the real horror. Yeah, I agree. It's going to be a very difficult thing to find international consensus on these kinds of issues. By the way, after my talk, a philosopher from the same university found me, kind of pulled me off to the side, and he said,

Confucius didn't say that. Folks, right now in Texas, families are reeling from this historic flooding. Food for the poor is delivering life-saving relief, but they need our help. I'm Eric Metaxus. Call 844-863-4673, or text Metaxus to 51555 to send emergency supplies or visit metaxus talk.com. Click on the banner. Metaxis talk.com. Thank you. Despera.

Folks, floodwaters in Texas have devastated entire communities, but we can help. I'm Eric Metaxis. Please join us and our partner at Food for the Poor to send relief kits to families who have lost everything. You can call 844-863-4673 or text Metaxus to 51555. or click on the banner at metaxis talk.com. Metaxistalkis talk.com. Thank you.

How we're going to solve this, well, the best we can do is get together, have global conversations, and try to reach some understanding on these matters, because it could be pretty difficult. Well, and again, what you're citing, a line has been crossed, the door has been opened, But it's not patently horrifying. In other words, what's horrifying is where that door might lead. In other words, that once you say, we can do this, now let's look into it. Or I would expect that there would be, you know, great profits to be made in doing things that ought not to be done. And that's really what we're talking about.

We're talking about parents saying, I want this kind of a child. Can you do it? Where can I get it done? We can't do the United States. Can we do it there? let's do it. That's right. And you probably remember after the embryonic stem cell fiasco, all these clinics opened up offshore and got people involved. And it was dangerous. I mean, they damaged the lives of some people with premature science. I mean, I think there's a lot of

interesting possibilities. I'm certainly not against scientific exploration and medical therapy. I'm a physician, after all. And there's great human need. But we have to find a way to do it morally. and with regard to genetic engineering, it turned out after JK had been arrested and so forth, it turned out that he had an alliance with a guy who runs something called the New Hope Clinic here in New York City where they were going to work their way through a regular infertility center to offer germline genetic engineering eventually.

And the commercial opportunities for that would be huge because people, well, first of all, there are quite a few people whose lineages have genetic diseases in them. But beyond that, you know, parents want the best for their kids. So if they advertise and say, do you want smarter kids, taller kids, this or that feature they want, they can falsely advertise the possibility for doing that. By the way, I don't think it's going to be easy at all to produce designer babies. Even the bioethics community, I think, thinks it's too real.

It turns out that it's very hard to re-engineer, re-toolinger. human beings. Well, sort of like taking a shotgun and shooting the engine of your Lamborghini and expecting it to go faster. Yeah. It's very complicated. I want

to talk more about this, but I also want to talk about the larger question of what is a human being and are there limits? In other words, if you have a worldview that says we evolved out of the primordial soup,

who is to say the end of what the end of evolution can be and maybe we've evolved to a point now where we can help ourselves evolve further, right? And of course, that's what transhumanism is. Talk a little bit about where we are with regard to what's possible

on that issue. Well, the transhumanists, they're very interesting. I actually have had the founders of the transhumanist society at Stanford in my classes. One of them was actually a TA for me. Very smart young man. And basically they say, well, look, the whole world just is a coincidence of chemistry. And why shouldn't we use whatever intelligence we can muster to produce an improved version?

After all, we have technology. We can kind of complete the process for the good to be expressed material. materially. And, I mean, in a way, based on their worldview that it all just happened without any kind of benevolent deity or purposefulness behind the universe.