The Eric Metaxas Show - ERIC METAXAS on The Becket Cook Show

Episode Date: December 4, 2022

Listen to The Becket Cook Show with special guest Eric Metaxas Discover more episodes of The Becket Cook Show:  Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3hYIcqH Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3EqQEXo LifeAudio: https://www.lifeaudio.com/the-becket-cook-show The Becket Cook Show was created by Becket Cook to discuss relevant topics and to crush the lies of culture with truth. Becket Cook was born and raised in Dallas, Texas. After graduating from college, he moved to Los Angeles to pursue his dream of writing and acting, finding success in both. He eventually became a production designer working on fashion shoots for brands such as Vogue, Harper’s Bazaar, Gap, L'Oréal Paris, and Nike. Becket lived as a gay man until 2009, when he reluctantly agreed to attend a church service at which he was transformed by the gospel and gave his life to Christ. He also knew that homosexuality was a sin and that he could no longer live that life. Becket spends much of his time in ministry speaking at churches, universities, and conferences helping people understand this issue biblically, theologically, culturally, and personally. Becket graduated from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University in 2017 with a Master of Arts in Theology.

Hi, I'm Beckett Cook, host of The Beckett Cook Show. I lived as a gay man in Hollywood for many, many years until I had a radical encounter with Jesus 13 years ago. Since then, I've gotten my master's degree in seminary and published a book called A Change of Affection. On my podcast, The Beckett Cook Show, I sit down with fascinating Christian scholars and thinkers to address the lies of the culture and bring the biblical truth to bear on those lies. To start listening now, go to Life Audio.com or search for the Becket Cook Cook Show on your favorite podcasting platform. Life Audio. You are listening to The Beckett Cook Show with your host, Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his website at Beckettcook.com.

To help support the podcast, visit patreon.com slash the Beckett Cook Show. Please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a five-star rating. Hey guys, welcome to the show. a very special guest, Eric Metaxus. He's been on this show several times. And you probably know him from his book Bonhoeffer, which is an amazing biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. He's written many biographies, including Amazing Grace on William Wilberforce and Martin Luther. And he's written a book called Miracles, which we discussed on this show before. and we discussed his memoir, Fish Out of Water on the show before.

But today, and he's written many other, many other books. So, but today we're going to talk about his latest book, Letter to the American Church. And I'm excited to have him on to get into this. But first, a word from our sponsor. Welcome, Eric Metaxus. I believe that's me. How are you? That is you.

It looks like you. It's good, good to, good to see you. Good to see you. You're one of those people. You encourage me. Thanks for having me on. You encourage me as well. I'm glad you're on. And this book is encouraging letter to the American church. It's not only encouraging, but it's quite eye-opening and quite urgent. So I want to, in the introduction of the book, the very first sentence of your introduction, you say, why you've written this book. I've written this book because I'm convinced the American church

is at an impossibly and almost unbearably important inflection point. What is this inflection point? It's pretty simple. Anybody who knows the story of what happened to the church in Germany in the 1930s, anybody who knows is familiar with my Bonhofer book and the story of Bonhofer trying to wake up to German church knows that the silence of the German church led to hell on earth. And we put that right at the foot of the German church more than at anyone else.

God appointed them to speak. They chose to be silent. By the time they figured out what was going on, it was too late. And the thesis of my book, horrifying as it is, and I mean it with no exaggeration, whatever, is that the silence of the American church today on a host of issues is, precisely similar to the silence of the German church in the 30s. It's exactly the same thing. I believe the Lord led me to write my Bonhofer book, like really almost as a prophetic warning. I didn't know that when I wrote it. This is, you know, in 2008, came out in 2010. I just thought

I'm telling, you know, an important story about a Christian hero, Dietrich Bonhofer, and the story. And because my family grew up, my mother's from Germany, lived through that period. It was just very moving to me. but I realize in retrospect that the story of what happened to the German church, which many people are familiar with through my Bonhofer book, is a warning to the American church. And I look around and I see that the American church today, to its deep shame, is exactly silent in similar ways to the silence of the German church. And the thing is, at the time in the German church, they didn't think they were doing wrong. thought, well, we want to stay in our lane. We don't want to be political. We don't want to talk about that or that or that. We just want to preach the gospel. I had all these kinds of theological excuses, which were totally wrong. And Bonhofer calls them out on it, tries to wake them up.

He says these theological objections are only fear. And I see exactly the same thing. And again, with no exaggeration, exactly the same thing happening today. People who have read my Bonhofer book, who would say like, oh, if I was alive then, I would have spoken. Of course, it's so obvious. You've got to speak against evil. Well, today they're not speaking against evil. A lot of Christian leaders are being deadly silent on all kinds of issues and their excuses are all the same. Oh, we don't want to be political. We don't want to be divisive. People who've read my book on William Wilberforce, amazing grace. They read it and they go, oh, if I was alive in those days, I would have been right there with Wilberforce. Well, I'm here to say that the people who got it wrong on the slave trade and on slavery, the Christians who got it wrong on those issues, the Christians who got it wrong on speaking against the Nazis,

Christians are getting it wrong now in our generation. And we are at an impossible inflection point, unbearable, I say, because we only have a little period of time to get this right. In fact, we almost have no time. If we don't wake up and begin speaking now, it's like the German church in 1933, 34, 35. Bonhofer knew the window was closing that if they did not speak up, that the Nazis were gaining power every day. And every day that passed, the silence of the church was making it more difficult to stop the Nazis from doing what they were doing. He saw where it was going. Many in the church didn't see where it was going. And so he tried and tried. But the German church did not wake up until it was too late.

And I believe that what happened, the judgment that fell on Germany, which is pretty clear and horrible, is happening in the United States now. God is judging us in our silence that if we, and his mercy is that he tries to wake us up. In other words, the judgment ultimately is first to get us to wake up, to say like,

wow, what's going on? things are getting crazy. I better speak up. I better wake up. I better live out my faith and stop just talking about it. But if we don't, the judgment continues and I believe it will be worse here that it was in Germany, if that's even possible. But trust me, when I tell you, the Germans had no couldn't dream of what lay ahead. They didn't understand that their silence, the churches, their silence in the face of evil could ever lead to the nightmare that came upon them. But of course, And I think similarly many Americans who are Christian influencers and leaders, they don't have any idea that their silence or their little theological objections could conceivably lead to evil. But it's already happening and it will get much worse.

So that's the extremely sobering message, I think, of this book. But I wrote it Beckett with hope because I feel the Lord led me to write it, hoping to reach people who are maybe they're on the fence. maybe they're just confused. They need encouragement. They need somebody to encourage them to say, yes, you need to speak up. You need to be vocal about all of these issues, any of these issues, but do not be silent. And so, yeah, you mentioned these host of issues. So what talk about the, what are the, I mean, it's obvious what they are, but just tell us what the issues are.

Well, I think, you know, the woke agenda would be the big, you know, kind of like the category that most of the, would fall under. But I think it's almost anything. In other words, we're being told right now, for example, we're being told there's certain things you can't even talk about, right? So when somebody says to me in America, you can't talk about that. I immediately say, excuse me? What? What did you just say? I'm in the United States of America. People have died so that I could have freedom of speech and I could talk about anything. I don't even need to be right. I just need to know. To, to, to, to, to, to, to, that I have the right to speak my opinion or my thoughts or whatever. When people say, well, you can't talk about, you can't talk about election fraud or

corruption in government. That's not, don't even mention that. Don't mention vaccine mandates or whether the vaccines are good. Those are the really controversial things. But as soon as somebody says, you can't talk about something, that's when you need to say, wait a second, why can't I, I can talk about anything I want. And by the way, that's just because I'm an American, because people died so we could have free speech.

so don't tell me to shut up. Secondly, I'm a Christian. I have a duty before God to speak the truth because people's lives depend on all of these issues. So whether it's critical race theory, people's lives are being destroyed by critical race theory and by the lies that have come out of critical race theory and the BLM movement. If you're against racism, that's good. But if you're an atheist Marxist who's into critical race theory and you start talking to me about racism, I'm going to say, where do you even get the idea of racism is wrong? I get that idea from the Bible. Right.

And you're just blowing smoke. You're being divisive. You're a cultural Marxist. Same thing with the transgender madness. Most people in America know that doesn't seem right. How can somebody suddenly decide I'm this or I'm this or or I don't know what I am? Where did that come from? Well, honestly, most people in America understand a rooster can't lay an egg.

It's kind of simple. And if you're Christian, it says we're made in God's image. male and female. It's kind of simple. Are you telling me I can't talk about that? Young women's lives are being destroyed right now while the church is silent on this issue. And you're afraid you're going to get labeled as transphobic or something. That's fear. God will not honor your fear. He honors your courage and your bravery. And so wherever you look, I mean, if you want to talk about having no border on our southern border, having people come over, bringing in fentanyl and destroying the lives of working class, middle Americans, destroying lives. And am I not supposed to talk about that?

Because that's a political issue? I mean, at the end of the day, the Bible doesn't tell us we're not supposed to be political. The fact that so many Americans have kind of created this doctrine, like we're not supposed to be political, I think that's total garbage. If you're against the trade. You're William Wilberforce standing against the slave trade. It doesn't get more political than that. The man was a politician. And he understood there's good and there's evil. The slave trade is evil. I'm going to use politics and I'm going to use everything, but also politics, to war against the slave trade. Same thing with Bonhofer. Bonhofer said to the church, if you do not speak up for the Jews, you have no right to worship God in church. What are you doing singing?

praises to God if you don't speak up against the evil being done to the Jews in Germany. We'll be right back after this short break. And they would sing louder when the cars, when the train cars would pass by. Is that that's correct? That may be an apocryphal story. I don't know. But we're all familiar with the, just think of it as a concept, right? That there's evil happening. And you just say, well, you know what? I, I just want to want to want to have a nice question. quiet time. I just want to worship God in my church. And the Lord's saying, excuse me, you are your brother's keeper. They're being persecuted. They're being sent to their deaths. They are being demonized. They're being ostracized, whatever. If you don't speak up, do you think I'm not going to judge you for your

silence and you're going to give me the excuse? You know, it's like the kid that you ask him, I asked you to wash the car three times. He says, well, I took out the garbage. Well, that's really nice. But don't gaslight me. I asked you to do that and you didn't do it. God asks us to speak up for those who are suffering. And when we don't do that, God doesn't say, well, whatever. He says, I'm depending on you. You're my church. You're supposed to speak against all of these things.

Now, we're not all going to speak about all of these things. But generally, the church has adopted this attitude of silence in the face of evil, whatever the evil is. And I think that it is kind of a reaction maybe to the culture war. of the 90s or what, but whatever it is, it's not God. And we are guilty. And God is looking to his church to speak. He's looking to his church to not be afraid to speak on these issues. And when somebody just says to you, well, you're being political, is that all it takes to silence somebody who says they believe in Jesus? They believe that he defeated death on the cross. We're not supposed to fear death, much less being called names, you know. And I always say to people like,

are you a racist? Because if you're not, why do you care if somebody who just hates your guts is like, throws that term of you? They just want to silence you. And you're supposed to have the kind of faith that says, I won't be silenced. So it's kind of a heavy issue. And I really think that, you know, there are a lot of good people who do get this. But there are a lot of leading voices in the church, leading Christian voices that are either being silent and they're modeling silence or they're actually openly advocating silence. There's a book that came out some months ago by Andy Stanley, prominent pastor in Atlanta, that completely gets this wrong. The book advocates for us not to be involved in any of this stuff. He calls it mere culture warring. It's just politics. It's just about

power. And I think to myself, don't you think they said that about the people trying to fight the slave trade? Of course they did. They said exactly the same thing. They said, your faith in politics separate. That's none of your business. They said the same thing to Bonhofer. The Nazis said the same thing to any German pastors that said, this is an issue of justice. We have to speak up for the Jews. They said, just stay in your little theological lane. So when I saw the book by Andy Stanley, I was so mortified. I was so horrified. But then I was more horrified, if you want to how bad things are, when I went to the Amazon page, and I saw a big blurb, a big endorsement of this book, which is completely wrong, historically and theologically,

big endorsement from Jim Daly, a focus on the family. And I thought, this is bad. This is really, really bad. When you have a prominent Christian, somebody that I would have considered a friend over the years, advocating for this kind of view, it's wrong and it's going to hurt a lot of people. And this is just the beginning. This kind of silence and advocating for silence and for quote unquote just preaching the gospel, that's not biblical either. It's nonsense, you know, that that you would, look at the life of Jesus and say, well, he didn't just preach the gospel. We're supposed to speak truth. And there are people who they're looking at Christians and thinking, what do you believe? I can see what you believe by how you behave. I can see whether you have courage or not.

I'll be interested in whatever gospel you're preaching if I see it lived out in your life. But if I see you just kind of going with the flow, which is the easy way to go, maybe I'm not going to be that interested in what you have to say because I'm trying to raise my kids in this crazy world. madness has been unleashed in America and you're just telling me, you know, oh, just just read your Bible, but don't do what it says. Just, you know, kind of sing some songs and be happy about Jesus. That's just not biblical. But in fact, the title of the book is letter to the American Church, but I was going to title it, Faith Without Works is Dead because that's kind of where we are. The German church and the American Church, we always talk about faith and belief.

And if you're not living it out, the Bible says you don't have faith. And so it's kind of have a chilling it's a chilling thing we need to be thinking about it yeah i i want to ask about the 12 000 pastors in germany but before i i just want to quote you you quote abraham kiper who is the dutch prime minister i think or president but um he's also a theologian but he says there is not one square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which christ who is sovereign does not cry mine and and bonhopper talks about you know uh live our faith in all spheres of life So it's the biblical view. That's what's so interesting to me. It's like there are people who are really taking the side of the atheist, Marxists, and places like China, right? And they're saying, just keep your, keep your faith in that little religious corner. And you think, wait a second, if my faith is real, the goal of God in my life is for me to take my faith everywhere out of the church into the world, out of Sunday morning, into every part of the week, to touch. every life, every sphere of media, government, whatever it is, our faith is supposed to impact

the whole world. So that Kuiper quote, I mean, I quote him all the time. Chuck Colson, my hero, used to quote that quote, almost in every speech, that we're supposed to take our faith into everything, including politics, including government, everywhere we go. So the idea that you're supposed to keep your faith in some little religious box, that's the devil's theology. That's not God's theology. And so just talk about, because some people obviously are objecting and saying, well, what about Romans 13, Romans 13? Just kind of, can you just address that specifically? Well, yeah, of course. Romans 13. I mean, this is always the problem. You know, the devil can quote scripture, you know, and the question is, what is the context? Romans 13, first of all, you know,

talks about being subject to the governing authorities, that's a little more complicated than some people make it sound. You know, if the governing authorities tell me to assist, I'm a nurse or a technician, to assist in a late-term abortion, religious liberty says, uh-uh, I'm not going to do that. My morality says, I cannot do that. But some people say, well, Romans 13, whatever it says is just be a good person and just do whatever the government tells you to do. On a hundred levels, that's not right. Now, if you look at it, if a cop pulls me over and I just say, hey, screw you, like, who are you? No, Romans 13 says, be respectful to the governing authorities. They're there to protect you, whatever. I mean, generally speaking, it's obvious that we're supposed to be subject ourselves to the governing authorities because they're there to bring order or whatever. But it has its limits. And all you have to do is read the rest of the scripture.

and you get all kinds of examples where that doesn't happen. So when people just kind of throw a scripture like that, they just go, Romans 13, like it solves the whole problem, you think the slave trade was legal. Slavery was legal. We as Christians have an obligation to speak against it, but in America, we have no excuse because we have absolute freedom of speech,

the freedom of religion to advocate for what we believe is right and truth. people died. Americans died. Pagan Americans and Christian Americans died on battlefields fighting so that we could be free to advocate for what we think is right and good and true. So when somebody just says Romans 13, they said the same thing to Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And Bonhoeffer said, look, the Jews are being demonized and persecuted horribly by the governing authorities. If you think Romans 13 means I'm not supposed to do anything about that. You're misreading Romans 13. You're misreading the Bible. I have an obligation to stick my neck out for folks like that. And there's just, you know, there's really no two ways about it. How do you get out of that fact that if the Gestapo comes to the door and says, are you

hiding a Jew in the basement? And you say, well, I don't want to lie. So to protect myself from being judged by God for lying. I'm going to say, yeah, yeah, I'm hiding a Jew. Come on in, torture and murder the Jew, and I'm justified before God. We all know that that's not right. I have the story of Rehab in Yeah, Rehab lied to the spies. Yeah. So this simplistic religious, in the negative sense, safe view of scripture is not God's view. And over and over in scripture, he speaks against that. And that's why I wrote this book letter to the American church, because I said we have to, have a biblical view of these things, especially now, because it matters. It mattered in Bonhoeffer's day. It mattered in Wilberforce's day. It matters right now. And lives are being destroyed.

If you have a false view of whatever it's Romans 13 or whatever you think the scripture says or if your pastor does, lives are being destroyed. Because of this misunderstanding in Germany, millions of lives were literally destroyed. People were murdered by the Nazis. That's where it eventually went. It didn't start that way. But this is, you know, it couldn't really be more serious. And that's why I wrote this book, because I thought, we have, we have no excuse. God looks to his church to be the conscience of the state to speak out, to do what we can. You know, Martin Luther King Jr. understood this. The churches were ablaze for righteousness in the civil rights era. And somehow we have come to a place where people are saying, well, don't be political, don't speak politics from the pulpit.

And by the way, if it's conservative politics, definitely don't speak it. You know, you think- Don't talk about abortion. Don't talk about LGBT ideology, et cetera. Right, right. And so tell us about, because this was very chilling in the book, about the 12,000 German pastors. There were 3,000 that were, you know, pro-Nazi and 3,000 who were resisting him.

But talk about the 12,000. It's, I tell you. When I uncovered this, I was writing the book when I came up with this. I said, I'd never seen this before. I didn't know this when I was writing the Bonhofer book. I realized that in 1933, okay, Hitler comes to power in 33 and immediately tries to enforce an anti-Christian worldview on all of Germany, starting with this racial division between Germans and Jews. So Bonhofer and the other pastors pretty quickly say, look, we can have our differences. But this is anti-biblical. we cannot go along with this. The German church will not be divided into people who have Jewish blood and people who don't. That's not the church. The Church of Jesus Christ doesn't move along racial lines. That's wrong.

We're not going to go along with it. So they created this thing called the Barman Declaration, which I write about in the book, of course, a letter to the American Church. And at the time, there were about 18,000 Protestant pastors in Germany. We don't need to go into the Catholic Church really to make the point. But there were 18,000 Protestant pastors in Germany. So maybe 6,000 of them signed the Barman Declaration initially. Maybe 5,000. It's unclear.

But by 1935, two years later, the Nazis had put so much pressure and had persecuted the church and Germans so effectively that of the 18,000 German pastors only three, 3,000 were still standing strong against the Nazis. 3,000 of the 18,000. But on the other end of the spectrum, there were 3,000 that were totally pro-Nazi, that were totally whatever the government says, we're all in, and they were very pro-Nazi.

But what I write about, there's a chapter in the book called 12,000 pastors, because you realize between the 3,000 that are standing strong for the Bible and truth, and the 3,000 that are standing strongly against it. In the middle are 12,000 who refused to take a stand, who said, we don't want to be political. We don't want to get involved. We're just going to preach the gospel. And you realize, first of all, that's preposterous. It's fear. It's whatever it is. They let the 3,000, they left them to hang out to dry. We'll let you take this battle. We'll let you get thrown in jail.

we'll let them come after you. We're just going to stay in the middle and see which way the wind blows. And we're going to say we don't want to be political. And it's because of the cowardice, the misunderstanding, whatever you want to call it, of those 12,000 pastors that the nightmare of the death camps happened, everything that happened, which is some of it is still unimaginable to us, the level of evil. It was because of those 12,000 pastors that refused to take a stand. And a lot of them really thought, I'm being principled.

I'm being print Romans 13. God's going to back me up. I'm not I'm not supposed to speak on this stuff. And it's chilling. And yeah, you said it. I mean, it's absolutely chilling because that's what we have today. Now, there's we have a lot of pastors saying, you know what, I got a good thing going in my church. I don't want to be divisive. I just want to kind of build up the numbers back from COVID and just kind of, I'm just going to preach the quote unquote preach the gospel. Well, what dead gospel are you preaching with all the madness that's being unleashed in America? that you are not helping your people deal with these issues, with authoritarian government trying to silence us, with the FBI and the IRS selectively targeting people with blue states and blue cities refusing to prosecute certain kinds of rioters and arsonists and vandals, but coming after others. If you don't speak about this, these are issues of justice,

these are issues of truth and morality. If you don't speak against this, you are part of that 12,000 that I write about in my book, that they enable the horror to take over. And I want to say, you know, Beckett, there were good guys that got this wrong. So it's not like they were all evil. Some of them eventually woke up and understood,

we have done a horrible thing. We should have spoken up earlier. Now we have no opportunity to speak up. We've been totally silenced. The church has been defanged, declawed, was nothing we can do. We should have spoken up. And so Germans and the German church have been hanging their head in shame for over eight decades on this. I mean, I'm not exaggerating.

It is just one of the most devastating moments in the history of the church in 2000 years, the silence of the German church. And again, the thesis of my book is that the American church is doing precisely the same thing now while we're talking. that is happening in America. And unless the American church wakes up and repents and begins to speak up and be brave and live out our faith, the judgment will continue. I believe the Lord's will is that we do wake up, that enough of us wake up and stand with those who are already standing and speaking. Yeah. And you talk about one of the, I think your chapters is called spiral of silence. And you talk about how the when you fail to speak, it becomes more the price of speaking rises.

It's kind of funny because, you know, I've had you on my show and we've talked about the whole the gay experience in America. These are truths, right? In other words, I think that people, when it came to abortion or what came to identifying as gay, people said, we've got to be out and proud and loud. In other words, when we speak what we believe, okay, now those are things that I don't agree with. But the point is that the principle is that when you speak it, you encourage other people to speak it. When you are silent, you encourage other people to be silent. And you've got a lot of Americans that are just saying, you know what, I don't want to, I don't want to be the one to bring up that issue. I don't want to be called a racist or transphobic or whatever it is.

And so basically, when you're silent, you're encouraging everyone around you to be silent and you're making it much harder for people to speak. speak. And when you speak, you make it easier for people to speak. So the story of what happened in Germany is the spiral of silence. It absolutely worked. The Nazi said, if we demonize everyone who opposes us, they will think twice about speaking. They'll be silent. And eventually it'll be impossible for people to speak up because people will look at you like, what's wrong with you? Are you not pro-German? Don't you love Hitler? Heil Hitler. So that is happening in America today. And we have to reverse that. The spiral of silence. You know, it's been happening in a sense for decades. If I spoke about biblical marriage 15 years ago, nobody would bat an eye. If you spoke about it 10 years ago,

a little tougher. Five years ago, a little tougher. Today, very tough. Why? Because the church really was kind of a little bit passive on this kind of stuff. They were, you know, you kind of wondered, do you really believe it? Why are you being so quiet about it? Don't you believe you'll be helping people if you're speaking the truth? And you kind of have to wonder whether some church leaders do, because I think to myself, I know if I speak God's truth, it will help people. I know that. And so if I say nothing, I know that I'm hurting people. And I think we have to understand that.

Yeah. And so last question, because I just want to ask you practical things everyday Christians in America can do because obviously, you know, people have families and kids in college that they're trying to pay for. And, you know, speaking up can lead to a very difficult time. not supposed to be maniacs, right? I'm not, I'm not talking about being a loudmouth idiot that says whatever you believe in every context. We have to have wisdom. I'm speaking mainly about leadership in the churches because when Christian leaders are silent, you're basically sending the message

to the person in the pew. Maybe we're not sure what we think about this. Maybe we better be quiet about this. That's to me the main issue. But anyway, I'm cutting you off. No, that's what I, that's what I want to I mean you're right it really is kind of up to the leaders in the church to to to pastor the sheep and so and and I find that in many churches that I've been to and there's there in many churches pastors are you know they you know they don't want to talk about these issues because it is unpopular and because it might rock the boat they don't want to rock the boat but it's as you said this is it's vital This is very vital to our faith and to the world and to, you know, to the congregations around the country.

I'm also convinced that they're that they're not just flat out wrong on the issues or on the theology. They're flat out wrong in terms of what people are looking for. You think you're going to lose people, maybe you'll lose some people. You will also gain some people. You will have some people cheering you on and inviting their friends who are not Christians to come to church. because people everywhere in America are looking for answers. They're thinking, what is happening? Who decided there weren't two genders 10 minutes ago?

Somebody made this decision and I can't talk about this. Are you kidding me? What world did we just enter? Did we just go through the looking glass? They're looking around for leadership on these issues. And if you find a church where they are lovingly but firmly talking about these kinds of things, people are flocking to those churches. And you and I know some of those pastors who have.

decided to be vocal about this stuff, people are just flocking to their churches because there's a hunger. So the irony is that there's a chapter in the book called the idol of evangelism about how people are like, well, I don't want to say anything that could conceivably be divisive because it's all about the gospel. I just want to focus somebody to get somebody over the line to accept Jesus. And you think, okay, first of all, I don't know what gospel you're talking about because the gospel involves all kinds of truth. So that's a little bit more complicated. But the irony, to me is that if you are speaking boldly and clearly about a host of these things. And again, there are so many.

We just mentioned a few. People are attracted to that. They go like, yeah, I'm looking for truth. I'm looking for clarity. I'm looking for courage. And so, you know, when you're told, you know, your three-year-old has to wear a mask and you've got to get this vaccine and you can't do this and you can't do that and you can't do that and you can't do it.

Many people are just saying, where do I? turn. So if you have a church where the people in that church are basically sane and they understand these things and they're talking about these things, people are hungrier than ever. So if you want to be successful evangelistically, ironically, talking about this stuff right now, there's a hunger and a woundedness in American culture right now. People are hungry for this kind of leadership. And so, you know, ironically, that is the way to go. contrary to what a lot of people are thinking, who are being silent because they're afraid of being divisive and losing people.

Well, you know, you have to kind of trust God with the numbers of people in your church. He called you to the pulpit. He called you to all of us, you know, we have to trust God with our jobs, whatever. We have to decide, am I going to walk with him and do my best to walk with him and say what he wants me to say and not say what he wants me to say and trust him with the results or not? I really think that's where we are. Yeah.

And when you mentioned evangelism, I just thought of, it's kind of like this bait and switch thing that's going on. It's like, yeah, I'm going to evangelize, but I'm not going to say anything that's any hard truths about the gospel. I'm just going to say, oh, come in and we're, God is love, everyone's loving. But that's so damaging because once that person who does eventually come to your church or whatever, and then they finally realize what the Bible says about these issues. Well, you hope they're going to feel the trade. would realize it going to that church. Right, exactly.

I know people living in sin, whatever, going to the same church for years and just never feeling that conviction. Right. And so I'm thinking, you know, you might want to ramp up the rhetoric a little bit, pastor, because there are people coming here thinking everything's fine. You've never made it clear to them that God wants them to change. He loves them. And because he loves them, he wants them to change.

He wants them to understand that issue. And, you know, so I don't really think that this method has been successful. I mean, a number of years ago, Willow Creek, which was totally seeker focus, the kind of like, you know, the ultimate example of what we're talking about, they realized that that thesis, that way of doing evangelism and whatever, had failed, that discipleship, leading people into the truth of God. they hadn't been doing that. So it was like an inch deep and a mile wide.

It was useless. You know, it's like Christians who aren't really Christians. They just kind of, they signed a card, but their lives aren't changed. I think God is calling us to a deeper walk. And he's allowed these horrible things to happen as a wake-up call for us right now. Well, we're going to leave it there. That's a good note. And guys, again, the book is Letter to the American Church to,

It's a great Christmas gift. So I urge you to get this book. Thank you for being on the show, Eric Metaxos. I appreciate it. It's a privilege. I'm just grateful for you, for your voice. Thank you. Thank you, Beckett.

All right. See you guys next week. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Beckett Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes of the Beckett Cook Show are also available on YouTube. For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his website at Beckettcook.com. Thank you to the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us. If you go to LifeAdio.com, you will find more faith-centered podcasts about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.