The Eric Metaxas Show - Ethan Gutmann

Episode Date: July 8, 2020

Investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann exposes the horrific practices of the Chinese government which blatantly disregards human rights, including live-harvesting of organs from religious and political dissidents -- and, how are American companies reacting?

Welcome to the Eric Metaxus show. Please keep your arms of legs inside the car at all times. This is your final warning. Now here's your host, Mr. Thrill Ride himself. Eric Mataxis. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. I think it's Wednesday.

Albin, is it Wednesday? It is Wednesday. Why don't I have so much trouble figuring out what day it is? I think there's no answer for that. Well, it's because the schools aren't open, so you don't know. By the way, I just wanted to let my audience know. if you're not watching this on video, I've invested in a new wig fixative. That's the new name. They used to say adhesive. And it's holding my wig in place much better. A lot of times during the summer months,

you know, you perspire and it slides around. And I just want people to know that it's really holding. And I'm just thrilled. I'm just thrilled with it. Yeah, it looks like it's holding. The other one is being steam cleaned. And they never get it back to you. It's like carpets. Where did it go? Okay, today in a couple of minutes, folks, we have an interview. Listen, just listen. This guy's name is Ethan Gutman. He is an investigative journalist, Maura Moynihan, with whom we spoke about China and the Chinese Communist Party recently put us on to Ethan Gutman. He has done his own reporting and written a book on.

on horrors unimaginable happening in China. When we're dealing with China, we need to understand the Communist Party of China is so oppressing the Chinese people. Okay. We need to know about this. This is a human rights issue. It's an American issue because we trade with China. We do business with China. According to Ethan Gutman, Nike uses slave labor.

in China. When he said that to me, I was shocked. You'll hear that in a few minutes. We need to be aware of what we're dealing with. We need to be aware of what is happening. In just a minute, I'm talking to Ethan Gutman. I hope you'll share it. I hope you will tell everyone you know never to buy another Nike product until they change their policies. This is absolutely monstrous. It's one thing to promote Colin Kaepernick. It's another thing. to use slave labor. Okay, in hour two, we're talking to Jenna Ellis. She was, I didn't know this.

I just found out she was with the president at Mount Rushmore. So she can give an inside scoop. That's an hour two today. And Albin, you had a great idea. You said, why don't we run my interview with Charlie Daniels from a couple years ago? I had the honor of getting to know him. he's a strong patriot and a wonderful Christian man and he just passed away. And so in hour two tomorrow, we're going to re-air my conversation with him.

We'll just air the first half of it. And if you want to hear the whole thing, you'll have to go to YouTube. Right. But what a sad thing to hear that he had passed. But we know that he's still alive. In fact, he's more alive now than he was. before he passed. We actually believe that. And you could too. That's up to you. In hour two tomorrow, as I said, Charlie Daniels. In hour one tomorrow, oh my goodness, we have Robert R. Riley.

How did we discover him? John Smirak. Can you guess how amazing Robert Riley is if John Smirak pushed him on us? We've had some of John Smirak's guests before. And let me tell you, Robert Riley, he's one of these people when you discover him, you think, how did we, how did we miss this guy? Yeah, his book is America on trial. Yes. Oh, my goodness. America on trial. So that's exciting.

And then on Friday, John Lennox. Oh, my gosh. The conversation with John Lennox is always extraordinary. He's written a book on artificial intelligence. Holy guacamole. Wait till you hear this mathematics genius. Yeah. That's what I got on artificial intelligence.

It was, it was, no, well, you'll see. And next week, I don't know, I just posted on my social media everywhere. I posted a man, his name is David Wood, giving his testimony of coming to faith. It is without question, one of the most amazing stories I've ever heard in my life. When you hear it, you'll see he was a violent psychopath. Horrific. But he tells his story. I hope we can play that on Monday.

Albin, let's see about playing that on Monday. So it's kind of like a miracle Monday. Well, whenever you come to faith and away. Now, oh, in the news, we've got a couple of announcements before we go. And number one, as you know, we're promoting the film Uncle Tom. Larry Elder made this film. He's in the film. And it is about conservative blacks in America.

It is really an eye-opener. If you want to get a different point of view than what you're hearing in the mainstream media, it is really staggering. I have to say. You go to uncle tom.com. Uncle tom.com. You can see it. But I should mention that a reader wrote to us that there were some expletives. that were not deleted.

And I don't know, Albin, how you and I missed it, we did. Normally, I would say, whoa, we better, you know, and I don't know if I was turned away or just in a bad mood, and I was kind of like a half listening. You never know how you can miss something. But just so people know, if you've got, you know, a young person that you're watching it with, you want to say that to them up front.

It is not, I would still say it would be extraordinary for young people to see the film. but there's just a little bit of that and you need to know just in case you're sensitive to it. You might want to let your kids know that there are a couple of words in here. But I have to say it is such a tremendous film

and I'm so proud of our colleague Larry Elder for having made it that I want everyone who possibly can see it to see it. You'd go to uncle tom.com and check it out. Yeah, I think there's a code Eric or something for a discount. Okay, yeah, always use the code Eric. When in doubt, use the code Eric.

And, you know, Albin, somebody told me that someone who's dressed up just like me, sort of, you can tell, if you look closely, you can see it's not me. But if you're not looking closely, it looks just like me, has been doing Mike Lindell commercials and interrupting this program. And I thought to myself, I wouldn't do that to my own program. But they said somebody playing you, I guess they thought it was funny, interrupts the program. and says, I'm Eric, and would you please, you know, when you go to MyPillow.com, use the code Eric. And I'm not going to put a stop to it because I would say the same thing if I had the opportunity.

People need to use the code Eric when they go to MyPillow.com. Right. And I just think it's funny because every time I'm watching TV, I see all these MyPillow commercials. And it's kind of, anyway, I find it funny. I just want to mention yesterday, Albin, I don't know if you were watching the news, yesterday, but Trump made this big announcement that we need to open up the schools across the country. Right. And a New York Times reporter named Alex Berenson totally agrees with the president. The rest of the left has been really strongly disagreeing with him and really

fearmongering because the facts, when you look into it, Tucker Carlson in his monologue, rattled off the facts. Alex Berenson has also rattled off a bunch of facts. The facts are that it would be the healthiest thing you could possibly do to get kids to go back to school. And yet when the president said it, because the president said it, people kind of freaked out. Betsy DeVos, who's the Secretary of Education, was on TV yesterday. She also said it's important that kids get back to school for many reasons. I mean, you know, if you want to fear monger, kids are committing suicide.

Like there are going to be deaths one way or the other? There are going to be more deaths if you don't send the kids back to school? I mean, if that's your metric, I would think that you want to pay attention to that. There's all kinds of things that are affected. The economy's affected because people can't go back to work because their kids are home. I have had friends of mine complained to me, say, like, at first it was fun, but it got tired real quick, you know, having all the kids at home and so on and so forth. So anyway, enough. In a few minutes, a very important conversation with Ethan Gutman.

Folks, you do not want to miss this. I promise you. We'll be right back. I've looked at clouds that way. Now they only block you so many things I couldn't know. Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. I have a real privilege to talk to my next guest. His name is Ethan Gutman.

He's an investigative journalist. he has written widely on the horrors of the Chinese regime. My friend and previous guest, Mora Moynihan, directed us to Ethan Gutman. And it is just a joy and a privilege to have you on the program. Ethan, welcome. Thank you very much. Great to be here. How did you get involved in becoming somebody who's a China watcher, so to speak,

because I think we have tremendous ignorance in this country. Previous presidential administrations have, to my mind, turned a blind eye to the genuine evils of the communist regime in China. And so I'm grateful for you drawing our attention to it. And in the time we have together, I want to hear some of the horrible details because my audience needs to hear this. But what led you originally to look at China, the way you do now. It's rather a dull story, actually, because we have to go back to the age of the dinosaurs. Do you remember when Clinton was president?

Unfortunately, I remember it vividly. Well, you know, one of the things I was looking at, I had an investigative TV show back that, and I was looking at the bag man who were carrying in campaign contributions from China and so forth. Now, you're not kidding. You were... I'm not kidding. You're an investigative journalist, and there were people bringing in the...

money from China to the Clinton blood? Yeah, and it was basically the princelings and so forth, these sort of sons and daughters of the top Chinese leadership. I got very interested in that idea. And I basically, out of that, I caught the China buck. I ended up going over to Beijing, living there for three years, writing a book about American surveillance, or American surveillance companies operating in the Chinese environment

or giving away technology like Cisco and to some extent Yahoo. The interesting thing was that, you know, I wrote this book. And after living there three years, a lot of people were mad at me. They said, I've lived here 30 years. I've written the book. And I said, why did you write 10 of them? Wait, what are the titles of your books? Because that's important.

I want my audience to be able to find out how you. The first one was called Losing the New China, which is really about that. It was about how sort of American companies sold out to China. Okay. And what's the more recent book? That's the slaughter. The slaughter it came out in 2014. That's the one that I think Mora was referring to.

And that's about the organ harvesting in China. It's also really the kind of the ultimate, or the best I could do, as a history of the conflict between Falling Gong and the Chinese state. Between Fallen Gong. So that's the sort of religious group that has been seriously persecuted by the Chinese Communist Party, one of many religious groups persecuted by the secular evil Chinese Communist Party,

not that I'm biased. So let me ask you, the title of your book is The Slaughter. It is by you, Ethan Gutman. Most people have no idea of what you're about to tell us. It strikes me as horrific that the mainstream media,

the media in general in America, have not reported on what you're about to tell us. So tell us, for people who know nothing, what do you mean when you say the slaughter, the title of your book? The slaughter refers to live organ harvesting of political and religious dissidents or prisoners in the system.

It began with the Uyghurs in the 90s, the 1990s, a very small group of Uyghurs, but nonetheless political prisoners. And it blew up during the Falling Gong years, starting in 1999 or 2000. And they started running out of Falling Gong, they started running out of Tibetans, and some House Christians as well have been affected by this. And now it's moved back to the Uyghurs, and it's at full scale. Okay, but it's actually as big as it's ever been. Now you're saying by this, again, unfortunately, we have to ask you to be specific.

Because when you say things like live organ harvesting, it's just a phrase. Unfortunately, we need you to explain that. Okay. Well, you know, what it is is basically a person is selected. There's somebody who needs an organ, either they're Chinese or they're a foreign organ tourists. They come from overseas. They need a heart. They need lungs.

They need a liver or kidney and a person is pulled out of kind of a Well really out of a database, but they're in somewhere they're incarcerated in China somewhere They're pulled out of that and then they are operated on well they're still live because the organs Take much better in the person They you know, there's always a tendency for the new body to reject the organ and I just, I'm going to be interrupting you here a lot because this is so horrific. I want to make sure we understand what we're talking about. It's inconceivable.

You're saying that human beings are selected to be murdered, but before they die, while they're still alive, their organs are harvested for profit by the Chinese government. You're an investigative journalist. You're not a cuck, unfortunately. No, no, I'm not any of those things. I really... What do you mean? This is not actually...

Let me tell you something. Let me put it a different way, Eric. This isn't really that surprising. I mean, you know, one of the things that we get in this is both a response of, oh, my gosh, this is so hard to believe or something. Actually, it's not. The Chinese have admitted several times, more than once, that they were doing this with prisoners,

that they were doing this with regular prisoners, that is death row prisoners, or hardened criminals, that they were harvesting their organs, okay, for sale to, for an organ tourist and for their own population. Now, the one thing they've always denied is that they were doing this with political and religious prisoners. But political and religious prisoners, and this is where I think really this is the basis of a lot of my work, are treated actually far worse than hardened prisoners. criminals in the Chinese justice system. They are tortured. They are, hardened criminals are

actually given the right to kind of run roughshod over them and warm all kinds of cruel and unusual tortures on these people. No, they are worthless to the state, these people. They are dangers to the state. They are a bit like toxic waste. And they are worth about half a million dollars if they're cut up correctly. Okay, so you're talking, again, let's be clear. I want my audience to understand the sort of worldview that leads to this. And that's kind of the problem that we have a naive press that doesn't understand that there's genuine evil in the world and doesn't understand that communist governments are evil.

I would say satanically evil. They regard human beings precisely as the Nazis regarded their guns. Jewish prisoners, as subhuman, as to be treated as they pleased. And so you're telling me that Falun Gong people, Uyghur Muslims, and house Christians, serious Christians, who are not willing to go along with the secularist, communist thinking that these people are singled out, they're tortured, They're imprisoned. And then if their organs are needed, they are killed, but they are taken to, you're telling us, an operating room where they are operated on while they're alive. So these organs can be taken from them.

I mean, this is as horrific as it gets. It's right out of the death camps. It's happening today in China, the nation that was welcomed by Bill Clinton to trade with us. and that many conservatives have decided that there's tons of money to be made. We're going to look the other way on human rights. The free market can save the whole world. And they've allowed this to go on and we don't hear about it. And I just, it's why I wanted to have you on this program because no one is talking about this.

Who besides you is reporting on them? Fair of mind, actually, it has been reported. What we have in the West is there's a tendency. We're very self-centered. and we tend to look to our own issues all the time. And that sounds great. Everybody does that all over the world. In America, we do it a lot more than other places.

So it has been reported. I mean, the New York Times has actually run six articles on this. I mean, it took them a long time, and they had to, they never sort of said, why didn't we run articles on this for 10 long years, but they eventually did. And I think every major paper now in America has written an article, on this. On specifically what you're talking about,

lies? Yes. Or not testing from political prisoners. Yes. It has been at least advanced as a very plausible theory since then tribunals. I mean, Congress passed a resolution very explicitly on this. The London-China Tribunal, an independent tribunal, led by the most respected human rights prosecutor in the world, you know, passed on, you know, came out with a name.

major study on it. Hang on. We're going to go to an official break. We're going to be right back. We want to hear more. Ethan Gutman is my guest. Don't go away. The Trump campaign has a special offer just for you.

President Trump wants to meet you. This will be the first opportunity he's had to meet with American patriots like you since our country started reopening. His team will cover the flight and hotel and give you VIP access for yourself and a guest. He'll even take a picture with you. Oh, you have.

to do is text VIP to 88022 today for your chance to meet President Trump. Again, that's VIP to 88022 for your chance to win and join President Trump in the fight to keep America great for four more years. I'm talking to Ethan Gutman. He's the author of a book, The Slaughter, which talks about how the Chinese communist government takes political prisoners, many of them devout Christians, Falun Gong, members, Uyghur Muslims, and harvests their organs while they're alive. This is horrific. It's barbaric. It's right out of the Nazi death camps. And it should be on the front page of every paper as far as I'm concerned. I guess, Ethan, why do you suppose we would trade with a country that does things like this? In other words, you're saying that these papers have written about it, but how is it possible that we can

trade with a country that does this kind of thing. I think the the you know I I think it's fair to bring trade into it but I think there's a stranger quality. If there is something strange going on here, it's in the medical world. Okay. You know, I was the lucky guy who had two psychiatrists for parents. Okay, two psychologists. That's not a it means waking up and telling them, though, I had a dream at breakfast. It's a really funny. It used to be a very funny event in my house. But the bottom line was I knew something about psychiatry in a very young age. And I used to ask my dad, why don't you have any Russian psychiatrist friends? You're so interested in ESP and things like that.

And he said, we're not allowed to because the Russians do terrible things to people who don't agree with their government. The Soviet Union puts dissidents in mental hospitals and tortures them and gives them crazy drugs. Now, that was something that was accepted all over the world. The World Psychiatric Association used to come out and denounce. the Soviet Union regularly from the 60s all the way into the 90s on this very issue. Today we have a medical world, the Transplantation Society, which is so eager to cut a deal with China, so eager to say, oh, well, I think they've reformed. Oh, well, they definitely reform. Well, they never did that in the past anyways. Now, what is the difference? Well, there's huge

money to be made in China. That's one thing. Okay? So we are talking about a, you know, sort of a medical transplant world full of innovation that is on steroids at the moment. That's part of it. Certainly part of it is the sense that, well, this isn't like the Soviet Union, and we can talk these things through. In fact, that's exactly where this should be going, in my opinion, is we don't have to cut off all trade with China, though decoupling is not a bad idea, in my opinion. But we certainly shouldn't have any contact with Chinese transplant.

doctors, surgeons, nothing. They shouldn't be studying at our universities. They shouldn't be publishing in our medical journals. They shouldn't be coming to our conference. Than welcoming Dr. Joseph Mangala into our medical establishment. How is it any different? What you're describing to me sounds like what Dr. Mangala and others did, Nazi doctors. And you're telling you have Dr. America who seem to be willing to work with folks like this. You're telling me this. Eric, I am telling you this, but, you know, Eric, I hate to make Holocaust comparisons. The Holocaust is such a special case. It gave birth to the field we call human rights. It's so

important. But yeah, how do you get away from those comparisons? The Nazis never figured out what they could do with Jewish bodies, okay? They tried making soap. They tried, you know, certainly the hair was used. We're seeing that now with the Uyghurs. Do you know that the Uighur, the Chinese hair market has gone up. They've got 400% more wigs than they did last year. Where are they getting that hair from? They're getting it from captive women, okay? Uighur women.

You know, that's hair. This is the real money, okay? This is the money that the Nazis never could get out of the Jews because we didn't know how to do anything with these organs. They just rotted and died. But in fact, if you can take a human being apart, correctly and move those organs around, and there are special methods to do it to keep them fresh for longer, a method called ECMO, which came, unfortunately, from the United States,

and was brought over by a Chinese, a Taiwanese doctor. You can get half a million for these people. You can, I mean, every lung, these lungs are worth 150,000 each. Okay. That's sort of the average price to a foreigner for them. A heart, that's about 150,000, too. You see, we're working. Where I'm getting it? We're getting it to big money. And you have to forgive me for bringing my parochial religious language into it. But it strikes me as satanic.

This is like some kind of a nightmare that human beings would be treated this way. And there's nothing to be done but compare it to the Nazis. Because when you're talking about treating human beings this despicably, you know, you have to make a moral comparison that makes people revolted. In other words, if somebody says, hey, we can make a lot of money. with these Nazis. Most people would say, well, that would be evil money. I can't take that money.

If somebody says I can make money off of the slave trade, people would say, well, no, that would be wrong. You'd be aiding and abetting the slave trade. We are aiding and abetting horrors of that magnitude. Today, our government and our, the NBA and Nike and many others are making a lot of money off of China. Now, by it seems to me, turning a blind eye to what you're describing. I think that's right.

And I also would add that, you know, a company like Nike might look pretty innocent in such a circumstance because they're not, we're just making shoes and athletic apparel. The problem is, again, the Uyghurs. There's at least a million of them in the camps. And possibly some people estimate as high as three million. It's hard. We don't know exactly. We just know that internally the Chinese authorities brag about how many people they put in these camps in each province.

And we have to kind of make estimates based on that. Nike is one of the biggest, it uses Uighur slave labor. Okay. This has just been shown. I didn't come out with this evidence. The Australians did. But the Australians came out with a very, very persuasive report. We have to go to another hard break here.

Forgive me, folks. We'll be right back. Very important. conversation. Don't go away. Hey, folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Ethan Gutman. The book is the slaughter. The slaughter. We're talking about some horrible things. You just said, Ethan, that, I can't believe this, that Nike uses Uighur, Muslim, slave labor. True or false? That is true. Okay, how is it possible that we are not calling for a boycott of Nike in the United States of America?

I mean, I cannot believe that I'm hearing what you just said. Well, you know, in some ways, I keep sort of contradicting you, and I don't mean to it, but those people who are working in that Nike factory, they're the lucky ones. They're the ones who are not going to be, who are not going to be harvested because they have this job. However, those people, and I've done a lot of interesting. interviews with refugees at this point, probably more than anyone else in the world, people coming out of these camps. There are two types of people who go missing from these camps. One of the group that's about 18. Those are the people who go off to work at Nike in someplace like that. They're kind of lucky. They're going to work as slave labor, but hopefully they're going to, you know, and when they get in their 40s, they're going to be kicked out because they're hands-knitling fast. That's that kind of thing. And then there's the other group, which are about 25 to 30.

Do you know what the average age is that they prefer to harvest people at in China? It's 28. It is exactly 28. You've stopped growing, but your organs are at their peak capability. These people disappear. In the middle of the night, they're simply gone. There's no reason for those people to go. There's no reason for those people to die.

You're very healthy at age 20. and those people are disappearing right now at a rate of 250,000 a year from the camps. You'd say, okay, that's not the Holocaust. It's over time over three, four years of camps. You've got 100,000 people. But that's an awful lot of human beings, the young people who have very promising lines ahead of them to simply be used to this way. This is so staggering that, again, I just have to keep interrupting. You're telling me things that it strikes me, Ethan, that if this is true and you know that it is,

that this should be common knowledge in America. Everything we have is made by China. We have allowed ourselves to be economically, inextricably intertwined with a nation that uses slave labor to make expensive sneakers for Nike. We're dealing with a country that you're telling me, gets political prisoners. In other words, innocent people with whom they disagree murders them around age 28 for their organs.

I don't know how it's possible that we're talking about anything else when we talk about China. This is unbelievable. Yeah, it is sort of a spectacular... Did I say $250,000? I meant $25,000. I'm so sorry.

if I did that. 25,000 per year. I'm sorry if I said that. Murdered for their organs. Did you? They are murder for their organs per year. Yeah, 100,000. They know.

Adding up to 100,000 over. Do these people know what is going to happen to them? No. No, they do not. In fact, there's a massive, there's a terrible lack of awareness of it. You made the Holocaust comparison. That was often true with the,

You see many accounts of this. Jews did not believe this could happen. People believed they were too useful to the state. They were working for this Nazi state, whatever, that they couldn't kill us, were too valuable. This is a constant, and I don't make fun of people for this. These are very intelligent people, but there is a tendency.

The human capacity for denial is remarkable. Now, some of them have come close enough to this, that we do have a man who actually performed this operation, He's a weaker. He was forced into it back in 1995. We've had several other witnesses who come out talking about this directly, a woman who just came out of the camps not long ago and described how they'd see a checkmark on.

After the medical exams were given inside the camps, their check marks would come back on certain names. Those people would disappear in the following nights. This kind of thing. People being given special stamps on their arm, And then they send them off to be harvested. This is... Even that term harvested.

I mean, it's such an anodyne term. Butchered. They are butchered. They are murdered. I mean, imagine, you know, if everyone in America knew that Nike, for example, uses Muslim slave labor. again, I don't know how anyone could ever purchase another Nike product once you understand things like that. I wanted to have you on to talk about this because I think it's time that we knew. If somebody said, listen, I'm doing business with Nazi Germany and they have slave labor working in a factory and I'm making money off of it.

And you know what? So what? If I don't do it, another company will do. do it. We would all denounce it. We would all denounce it. Why are we not denouncing this? I mean, the Nazis didn't last very long. China, the Communist Party of China has been around a lot longer than the 12 years of the Third Reich. And we have boldened them and we have made them wealthy. And it goes on. We, the biggest problem we have is that we have a natural leader in this area. That is the doctors.

The medical world in America is highly respected, maybe a little less respected after some of the mistakes they've made in COVID-19. But still respective. This is, you know, and this is cross-cultural. It's across the world. They haven't done their part. They came into China eager to make a deal, which, of course, the deal was to whitewash everything. And we have seen no leadership from them. And in fact, they tried to politicize it.

Oh, when Congress passed that resolution, it was, you know, that's just the hard right and the Republicans. You know, I hate that. I am a guy who works across the aisle with everyone. I built a coalition. I was one of the co-founders of the international coalition to end transplant abuse in China. We have people of all kinds of political persuasions in that group. that people would turn this into some sort of charade or some sort of part of the Washington D.C. pie fight. That is disgusting to me.

And the fact is they had no right to politicize it that way. The facts are the facts. People can go on read. I'm sorry. It's hard for reporters. I recognize that too because there's an awful lot of stuff they have to read, okay, to get a candle on this issue. It takes about three to six months. We're going to have to go to one.

more break. Forgive me, folks. We'll be right back. Don't go away. Make like Mr. Milk Toast, you'll get shut out. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Ethan Gutman. The book is The Slaughter. Ethan, you're talking about so much here, so we've got to have you back on soon. But what you're essentially saying to me is that the Communist Party in charge, China has the technological ability to do things that the Nazis couldn't do. The Nazis would have done it, but the Communist Party in China has the technology. They have been aided, I'm sorry to say, by Google.

And tell us about Waiway. Tell us about that company. One of the things that we were not really, you know, a lot of America's not really is kicking our way out. And UK seems poised to do that, at least partially. but we don't really recognize the threat that we're getting from surveillance. This is, look, I had talked to several engineers who actually worked in the Uighur, who are Uyghurs, but they're very, very good computer engineers.

They worked for Huawei, specifically on a system which can, you know, it can racially differentiate between a Han Chinese and a Uyghur. Well, this is facial recognition technology taken to the next level. This is facial recognition on steroids. It is a completely new thing. These are people who you and me would say, they look pretty similar. No, they don't.

Not to the camera. They can read emotions. Emotions you can't see. Even with your human eye, you can't see the way the blood moves on my skin. The computer can. It can tell if I'm stressed. Based on that score that somebody's aware

and somebody's stressed, that's enough for arrest. That's enough for organ harvesting. They can also, measure and test health with these with these functions and it's a much more successful way of doing it than I mean it's probably better than a dog smelling cancer this is remarkable stuff and telling me that why we're not playing with idiots that Wai way is a tool of the Chinese government to do evil that they're

using technology high-level technology to do evil to do things that are genuinely racist and there are still people around the world who think it's okay to to work with Huawei and to work with China. That's why we have to break with the medical world of China and we have to break with anything connected with surveillance. Let's start there. Decoupling, the whole decoupling, back and wait. Let's start with where it matters. None of these people should be, we shouldn't be working with these people at all. And any company who's involved with slave labor from the Uyghurs, people who are being basically wiped out, we have to end that as well. So I think those are the three initiatives that are necessary at this time.

Again, I'm staggered by all of this. The idea that there are people who don't care, who look the other way, is there anyone in our government, any senator, any congressman who is homing in on this? issue. Sure. I'm Chris Smith, certainly Congressman Chris Smith, certainly Senator Rubio, Roarbacker, I'm so sorry he's not there anymore, but he was a stalwart on this issue. I would assume Frank Wolf would have been on this. That's right. That's right. That is correct. So you got that that's the usual suspects, but I think they have, certainly Rubio has a lot of power now, a lot of sway. And so I'm hoping to see some real advances. Well, again, I, I, The COVID crisis has opened a lot of people's eyes on China.

And I think that's... Thank God. Thank God. Well, look, we've got to have you back. We're out of time. But it's just really, really important to get the conversation started to familiarize my audience with you, Ethan Gutman, and with your book, The Slaughter. I know you're working on a new book. This is very, very important to the whole world.

So thank you for your work. We'll have you back as soon as possible. All right. Thank you, Eric.