The Eric Metaxas Show - Francis Chan (Encore)

Episode Date: September 5, 2021

Francis Chan brings out concepts from his new book, "Until Unity," and also talks about "supernatural answers to prayer" and amazing miracles; plus, a wet-your-beak Fun Facts Friday! (Encore Presentation)

to the Eric Mettaxas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey, folks, welcome to Friday. Friday. Friday. It's Friday on the Eric Mattaxas show. And why wouldn't it be Friday everywhere? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? We're in one planet. I know. Okay, I have a question, Albin. Why? Since it's Friday, yes, sir. Are we, am I going to be talking to Francis Chan shortly? Yes, Francis Chan. Okay. Francis Chan is a big deal. If you haven't heard of him, you're in big trouble. that's number one. Francis Chan is my guest. He and I become friendly lately,

and I think that's going to end in this interview. You want to stay tuned. I'm going to grill him hard. And you should. And I want to remind people that I'm going to be in Seattle today. In fact, I'm on a plane now.

Do you know how I know that? I just do. I can't tell you. But while you're listening to this, I believe I'm on a plane. I don't feel like I'm on a plane, but I believe I am nonetheless. I hear the wind rushing

past. You better close that window. Yeah. And by the way, since I'm going to Seattle, it reminds me to remind the audience, if you go to my website, if you want to find out where I'm speaking, I'm speaking everywhere this fall. It's going to be crazy. I don't know if I'm going to ever get home again. But my book is coming out. It's called Is Atheism Dead? I'm asking you to pre-order a copy from anywhere you like. It makes no difference. But please pre-order your copies. People are going to get crazy about this book. promise you. I can't wait until it comes out because I want to talk about it. There's stuff in

here that's going to really shock people. I mean, I promise you, you will have a hard time believing some of the stuff that's in there, but it's documented. And it's God's, I would say, in time, you know, revelation of evidence proving him, making it much more difficult to believe he doesn't exist. In fact, I argue that believing there is no God has become intellectually untenable. I mean, genuinely. I don't mean that's my subjective call. I mean, it's not tenable. You can say I'm an agnostic. You can doubt the details.

But whether there's a God, I think, has become a question that's beyond questioning. It's just, you know, it's like talking about whether the other is flat. Do we really know if it's round or do we – you know, there's always going to be somebody clinging to the idea that it's not a sphere, but an oblate sphere. We're going to get letters saying, oh, it's oblate. So let me just say this, that the book – you can – I'm going to be speaking about it, but you can find out my speaking schedule at Ericmetaxis.com. You should be going there every day anyway to check your blood pressure and things of that nature. Also, we should mention Nutrametics.

Yeah. Go to Nutrametics.com. Use the code Eric and get a whopping discount on all the stuff you need to keep your immune system boosted up the way you ought to. So I think I mentioned this a couple of days ago. You know, there's no such thing as a cold and flu season. There is such thing as a depressed vitamin D season. You get less sun in the winter. you get less vitamin D in the winter,

which is why you're susceptible to viruses and coals and different things. That's normal. So if you want not to be normal, if you don't want to get colds and viruses and flus and COVID, you want to take vitamin D. And you also want to take zinc and a number of other things. Go to nutrometics.com. This is true.

I'm not blown smoke, ladies and gentlemen. Go to nutrimetics.com and use the code Eric. And of course, we, because it's Friday, Albin, And I kind of thought, before we get to Francis, who's no fun, we would have some fun on Friday with Fun Facts Friday. Do you have any Fun Facts Friday stuff? We haven't done it in a long time. I'm going to wet your beak with some fun stuff. And by the way, I can't wait to pre-read.

This is a family program. I can't wait. You guys need to edit that out. To pre-read your is atheism dead. I'm champing at the bit. It's not chomping at the bit, you told us. No, you can say chomping, but I think champing is better. Champing at the bit.

I just see a horse chomping instead of champing. champing. I don't know what that's all about. Well, they chomp on carrots, but they champ at the bit. There you go. Okay. Now it's all straightened out. Okay. I want to start with a, this is just a wet your beat kind of fun facts Friday, because in a week or two, we're going to do a much more fuller segment. Okay, but much more fuller. How about much more fuller or how about just fuller? Okay. See, now I've been corrected again. Thank you, Professor Metaxus. We got a medical lesson from Dr. It's not going to be fuller. It's going to be more fuller. In fact, it's going to be much more fuller. All right, here we go. Now, this first one is a true or false fact. Now, this is kind of a fun thing to start us off with, okay? Yeah. Now, you have to tell me whether you think this is true or false, okay? There's a brand of underwear for senior citizens called late bloomers.

Okay, I know that that's false, but I know that it's so clever that you made it up. An underwear for senior citizens called late bloomers. That's very clever, but it seems too clever for some of the way. actually to have used it to create underwear for senior citizens because senior citizens would say, why do I need special underwear? Exactly. I kind of came up with that idea on a bike ride. However, then I Googled it. And believe it or not, there is actually, it's mostly false because it's not for senior citizens. There's actually like an antique underwear you can buy that's called late bloomers. And it's like they made it into a fashion called late bloomer underwear. Late bloomers. Well, that's what a wonderful fun fact to have learned on this Friday. Thank you. My life is almost richer, although not.

Okay. Now, here is the first question. I want to see if you know the answer to this. I'm ready. Go ahead. Your dad, at least, is from the old country. In ancient Greece, okay? What particular fruit was seen as a symbol for Venus, the goddess of love? What particular fruit? I think probably Socrates.

Oh, I'm sorry. Venus, the persimmon or the pomegranate or the apple. Don't tell me. Say it again. Okay. It's a symbol of Venus, the goddess of love. Yeah. Love. Okay.

I can give you a few. Apple. No. Okay. Figs, no. Pomegranates. Aramina, ra. Meyer lemons?

No. Meyer Lansky? No. And it's not watermelon either. Let me just tell it to you. And by the way, guess where I got this information from? Well, you said, you know, my father's not an ancient Greek. He's an older Greek, but he's not quite a.

ancient. I know, but he might, you know. He doesn't go back to antiquity. He only goes back to 1927. I did not think he did, but the answer is strawberry. Now, honestly, that I would not have known. Okay. Well, you cannot dispute the fact when you find it on a snapple lid.

Okay. You read it on a snapple lid? I did. What could be more pathetic? All right. Not much. Not much. And they don't even sponsor this show. Okay, here's something serious. This is a quote. I want to see if you know who said this. I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him.

I shall now allow, I shall allow, I shall allow, I shall allow, I shall allow, I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him. Yeah, I'll give you a few choices. Martin Luther King, Billy Graham, Don Rickles, Brooker T. Washington, or Dick Cheney. What's the first one? Martin Luther King, Billy Graham, Don Rickles, Booker, T. Washington, or, of course, Dick Cheney.

T. Wash. It's either Martin Luther King or Booker T. Washington. You got it down to two. Oh, no, I know. It's one of them. Yeah. Read it again. Okay. I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making him hate me. It doesn't sound like the cadence of Martin Luther King Jr. So it has to be Booker T. Washington. It is. Oh, good one. Bingo. Hi five. Okay. Another quote real quick, and it's a serious one. Excellence is to do a common thing. in an uncommon way. Excellence is to do a common thing. I just want to say,

Booker T. Washington is in my book, seven more men. A lot of people, because it was the COVID year, don't realize that I wrote seven men. I wrote seven women. Then I wrote seven more men. And because it came out during COVID,

a lot of people don't know that they go, I wish you could do more. Well, I did more. Seven more men. Booker T. Washington's story is in it. And honestly, it is amazing. I think it's the most amazing story in the book. So that's not why I knew that.

I was guessing it was. an educated guest. Right. So the next question that you have is. Okay, one more quote here. Excellence is to do a common thing in an uncommon way. And I'm going to give you the exact same list. Martin Luther King, Billy Graham, Don Rickles, Booker T. Washington, or Dick Cheney.

Okay, you're doing this so quickly, slowly, again, one more time. So either Martin Luther King, Billy Graham, Don Rickles, Booker T. Washington, or Dick Cheney. It's definitely Booker T. Washington. It is. And see, I threw a curve. ball at you. Both of them are Booker T. I almost threw in Thomas Edison to throw you off.

But yeah, no, that's that was that stuff. So Booker T said both those things. Yeah. Well, this is he was an amazing guy. Up from slavery is the other thing. The reason I didn't know about, oh, I'm sorry, what am I talking about? This is

like, I mentioned George Washington Carver, not Bookerty Washington. I literally confused them because George Washington Carver used to do things in in strange ways. He would create things like people know

he figured out a thousand uses for the peanut. Yeah. So that's right. It wasn't. So I'm stupidly saying Buccadie Washington.

Well, I got it right both times. You did. But I didn't mean George Washington Carver. Obviously, I meant Bucody Washington that I was thinking about my book. All right,

we're at a time. Lucky for you, we'll be back with Francis Chan. He's going to get it. The clouds got in my way. Hey, folks, I've got to tell you a secret about relief factor

that the father, son owners, Pete and Seth Talbot, have never made a big deal about, but I think it is a big deal. I really do. They sell the three-week quick start pack for just 1995 to anyone struggling from pain, like neck, shoulder, back, hip, or knee pain, 1995, about a dollar a day. But what they haven't broadcasted much is that every time they sell a three-week quick start, they lose money. In fact, they don't even break even until about four to five months after if you keep ordering it. Friends, that's huge. People don't keep ordering relief factor month after month if it doesn't work. So yes, Pete and Seth are literally on a mission to help as many people as possible deal with their pain.

They really do put their money where their mouths are. So if you're in pain from exercise or even just getting older, or to the three-week quick start for 1995. Let's see if we can get you out of pain too. Go to relieffactor.com. Relieffactor.com or call 800, 500,000, 8384, 800-508384. Relieffactor.com. I use it. It works. Hey there, folks. exciting. You ready? I get to talk to Francis Chan. You know who Francis Chan is? I didn't really. I just knew he was

kind of a big deal. He wrote this big deal book called Crazy Love, but I don't keep up with everything. So I met him, as I think I mentioned a few times, when I was in Kansas City at Mike Bickles, big international House of Prayer, Kansas City Fellowship, and I just grew to know him and love him. And I just thought, wouldn't it be fun to have him on the program so you could meet him. him to. Francis Chan, come on in. Welcome. So good to see you. Man, I miss you. It's good to see you, and I miss you too. I miss your voice. You've got a funny voice. You crack me up. A friend of mine, I realize that you kind of, when you do your full comic mode, when you're preaching and you get in that, you get all tortured and stuff. And you go, you sound like you're a cross between Gilbert, Godfried, and you'll Brinner. Nice. And I'm glad you don't know who they are because you'd be insulted and blessed at the same time.

Look, you and I got to know each other, and we kid around a lot. So you speak my love language. But the joy of being in Kansas City for me was processing it with you because both of us are astonished by some of this prophetic stuff and this Holy Spirit stuff. And we're kind of looking at each other because we don't, we believe it, but we're just blown away. Can you talk about that a little bit? Because that's part of what gets to this unity. message of people coming from different streams, quote unquote, to sort of try to see things through each other's eyes. Talk about that a little bit. Totally. And I was so glad you were there

because you would ask the questions like, wait, wait, tell me, is this a vision? Were you actually there? You know, you're asking all the things that I was thinking because it's different to us. These guys are talking about miracles like we talk about brushing our teeth. Like it's just, yeah, yeah, then this happened. Then this happened. And then this happened. You're like, wait a second. This is fascinating. Have you documented this?

Do you have proof of this? Can you show me doctor's records regarding this, right? And then you've got this other guy, Chris, who's like reading our mail, telling us things about our own lives and our friends that were going, how did you know that? You couldn't have known that. You can't even research that online. And so we're just sitting there amazed at these stories that have this like history over the last 50 years of things coming true just like these guys said.

And I'm skeptical. You're skeptical. Yeah, as long as you're not cynical, right? I mean, that's the whole point is that I want to be, you know, look, you're a fool if you're not a little skeptical. And there are people in the body of Christ that they're foolish. They'll believe anything, and then they can practically lose their faith when it's proved to be untrue because they're not really, they're not being wise. You know, there are people that will share things. And I think we have an obligation.

They say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. When did this happen? How did this happen? Because some people say that was a miracle. And I would say, like, I don't know that that's a miracle. That might be a nice blessing or coincidence. But, you know, a miracle, that's when God shows up clearly, and he does. So don't confuse that with, you know, I got a parking spot or whatever.

anyway, but you, when did you, I mean, first of all, you have a book out called Until Unity. It just came out a few months ago. And you preached a message on Unity that really moved me. It was just an amazing, amazing message. And I know it's online. I've shared it. A lot of people have watched it. But you said something there, which I'll never forget.

You said that you looked at Mike, you looked at me, and you said, I'm standing with you. And you said, when you stand with someone, you inherit their. enemies. That was a huge statement. Just say a little bit more about that because that's just a beautiful, you know, message. Yeah. I think, you know, sometimes in the Christian world, we're like, oh, yeah, Unity, I love you, Eric. This is great. This is beautiful. And they don't realize the cost in that. There's a cost for you having me on your show right now. Suddenly, I'm using viewers like crazy right now. They're just, they're gone. They're not even listening anymore. Yeah, those followers drop off.

I mean, it is. Anyone who has an issue with me going, I can't believe Eric would have him on his show. And in the same way, I don't know if you're aware, but some people don't like you as well. Nah. I know, I know.

Just go online sometimes. My mother refuses to believe that. So now suddenly, it's like Francis went on the Eric Metaxus show. I mean, this is just this, satanic, let's tear them apart, let's get them afraid to become friends. You know, here's Jesus commanding you and I who are spirit-filled people who

trust that Jesus died on the cross for us. We're sons of God. And yet we feel this pressure like, well, we better not get too close, even though Jesus commanded us to love each other as much as he loves us, we're feeling this. pressure from the quote unquote Christian world to kind of hold each other at arm's length. And there's all this pressure to do the exact opposite of what Jesus commanded. Well, let's put it this way. The reason I think it's silly when people say, well, I don't like you. I think to myself, look, I don't like me either, you jughead.

Like, there's a lot of stuff about me that I don't like. So what are you accusing me? Are you accusing me of loving everything about myself and being totally sure I'm right about everything. I'm not. But if you love me, you can lovingly challenge me and maybe help me to see something that I missed because maybe I did miss it. But if you shy away from people, you'll never be able to love them toward the truth. And that to me is the problem. I've got many friends that are, you know, they think I've lost my mind politically or something, but I won't turn my back on them. I don't care if you strongly disagree with me. Let me be your friend. Let me love you. We don't even

need to talk about that stuff. But a lot of those folks won't talk to me. Something happened in their world where they can't break bread with somebody who thinks the way I do. And I thought, so why do I want to hang out with you, even though we disagree, but you don't hang out with me? And I think you're buying into, you know, we call it cancel culture, but it's graceless. It's to say that I'm going to find something about you, you're out. And I think, I don't know, why? Why? Gosh, I'm so glad you said that even that first part because i actually write about that in my book if if you would read any of my books but um they're so they're so short and so fluffy that i'll knock it out on the on the subway right home hey i finished bonhofer since we were together like i finished it two weeks ago

okay so thank you it's such a harrowing read i can see that you've lost your hair over this it'll go it'll go back this happens a lot of people francis but are you serious you read that book Because that's, it's such a, I mean, look, it's got nothing to do with me. It's a harrowing, beautiful story of a man of God. So I'm glad that you read that. Thank you. Seriously, thank you. No.

I hope you can read the abridged edition. No, I read the whole thing. I read the whole 600 pages. It's a record for me. So you ought to be flattered. And I bow to you as a writer. You are gifted, gifted, gifted. Oh, you're very kind.

Thank you. So, um, but what I was. saying was I talk about how the exact same thing you said, I don't like Francis Chan either. I want him crucified with Christ. So it's no longer Francis who lives, but Christ who lives in me. So we're in agreement here. Isn't that crazy? Right?

It's crazy. It's like the enemy saying, I see your sin. And you're like, yeah, I see it too. And because I see it, I gave it to Jesus. and he sees it and he forgave it and he's loving me you know we're cancel culture is the opposite of that it just kind of wants to tag you not realizing like what i want to tag myself i want to i want to find those sins i want to repent of them like why would you think i don't that's what it means to be a christian isn't it um anyway i was just really moved by what you said that night and i i'll

just have to post that uh again i whenever i have folks on here i had chris reed on Actually, we won't air it until Monday. But I like to know people's stories, and I didn't really get to hear your story. Can you share with us what kind of a world did you grow up in? When did you come to faith? I know you lost a parent early on. Yeah. Well, I was born in San Francisco, but my mother actually died when she gave birth to me.

And so my dad sent me to Hong Kong to grow up with my grandparents. And then he remarried. I came back to the States when I was like five. And then my stepmother died in a car accident when I was about eight. My dad got married again. Then he died of cancer when I was 12. And so, you know, by time I'm in middle school, I've lost three parents already and just got me thinking about I'm not guaranteed tomorrow. I mean, I saw my dad right there and now he's gone.

I saw my stepmom. She's right there. She's gone. I never even knew my mom. So it makes you live with this brevity of life and searching for answers. And when I began studying the scriptures, gosh, the way God would answer my prayers when I began to believe in Jesus and start this relationship, it just set me on this journey. And now I'm in my 50s, you know, seven kids, two grandkids, just life is wonderful. And kids and no gray hair.

That's unbelievable. We're going to be right back. I'm talking to Francis Chan, my friend, my brother. The book is Until Unity. We'll be right back. Secret notebook of Nicola Tesla with his most dangerous formulas could fall into the hands of evolutionary elite scientists. His most amazing discoveries thought to be written in a lost journal. The right hands could revolutionize the 21st century.

They want to start a new world order where elites rule and everyday people are not. created equal. Look out! Now the elites plan to set off an earthquake under L.A. to take out world leaders. There's an old brown battered notebook in my office at work. You have to

find it, take it, and keep it hidden at all costs. Let's just say there are a lot of enemies of the state interested in his research. It's up to regular people to stop them. A grad student, a campus cop, a deaf army vet, and a group of live action role players. A vertical quake this size could collapse

half of dot top. Catch final Frequency playing exclusively on SalemNow.com or download the mobile app. For more information, visit Final Frequency Film.com. Hey, folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Francis Chan. Francis, you just, you, from the moment I met you, you crack me up. You make me smile, like, there's something going on, and I just enjoy you. When you spoke that sermon, which, again, your book is called Until Unity, but you preach a sermon on Unity and stuff, and you did stuff, I mean, I was dying because, you know, you said, okay, Mike Bickle, and you start talking about Mike and how, you know,

because he moves in this crazy supernatural stuff, that for you to ally yourself with him, even just as a friend, people will, they'll want to cancel you, that you inherit his enemies. And then you said something about Chris Reed. And as soon as you spoke about Chris Reid, I was like, oh, no, he's going to go down the line. He's coming to me.

And sure enough, you get to me, and you say some uncomfortable stuff about, me, which of course cracks me up at the same time. I'm cringing. But in all seriousness, I want to ask you, this is just in terms of what we were just talking about. This is a total transparency. I trust you, right? When you say that I say things that bothered you or this or that or whatever, like, I always really want to know what, like, am I missing something? Because I maybe I don't need to hear it because I already know, you know, like I know when I'm saying something or that, or maybe I'm being political, and people go like, oh, I don't think we should say this or

or say that. But you spoke some really funny stuff. It was like even as it's hitting me, I'm laughing because the way you said it. And, but I want to be honest about that. I'm not, you know, I'm not worried about that. I'm ready to let go of something if it's not Jesus. Yeah. I mean, I think what you do is similar to what I do. We are very in the moment. Like right now, I'm focused. And I'm thinking, God, what do you? want me to say right now. And that's great. It's fun.

It's spontaneous. It's who we are. We don't want to lose that. But I think sometimes you'll make a statement. And if a person knows you, okay, then it's like, oh, yeah, yeah. That's Eric in context.

That makes sense. You're right. If they don't know you, you're right. It can sound like that arrogant. Right. You know, he doesn't love this group of people at all. but I get it now.

I told it. So now this challenges me, right? Because I literally don't know which way that breaks. Because I think to myself, wait a minute, I used to worry too much about what I said. I was so worried that I didn't say anything. And then I think as you get older, you lose some of that. But it's kind of interesting because I think to myself, is my problem that not enough people know me? and so people kind of reading me out of context

because I know I challenge people because I kind of come at so many different things, right? Sometimes I'm like Mr. Comedian, joke, joke, joke, other times I'm Mr. Bonhofer, other times I'm in. And if you don't know who I really am and you're reading me, I mean, this happened a lot with Trump. Like he would say something and I'm from Queens, New York and I come from a world that's not filled with Christians

and I'd be like, I know exactly what he's saying, but there would be these people, I think, can you believe he just said this? And I'm like, are you kidding? kidding that's like my uncle. If you know him, he's not, you know, but they would kind of parse his sentences and boom. And I thought, we're kind of living in challenging times in a sense because you do have to have grace for people. Somebody says something and you have to say, did they really say what, you know, I could make them sound bad just by quoting them. But is that what they meant?

So that's kind of, that's what's happened to me a lot. So I do, I want to be honest, I struggle with that. And I struggle with my responsibility to other people, you know, do I have responsibility to be so careful. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I, I listened to you made a comment about Black Lives Matter. And, but then you explained it later. Like, you guys, I'm not talking about, like, do I believe Black Lives Matter? Like, that is ridiculous to even question that.

Yeah. I'm talking about behind the scenes. I'm concerned about this. I'm talking about a Marxist movement. And but where it really gets dark, though, Francis is because. that that phrase has been taken over by people who I think are harming black people. So it gets really crazy. Anyway, yeah.

No, I get it. And I've been accused of things where I go, that is the most ridiculous. Like one time I was talking about the one time in my life, I saw God doing miracles through me. And I just made the comment. Like, I'm living the New Testament. like, I'm Jesus right now. You know, now, sure, some clown takes a hold of that and says, look, Francis claims to be the Messiah. And I'm like, have you ever heard me speak in my entire life?

Every message I give is about he is way up there. And who am I in comparison to His Holiness? But, oh, let's take the sound bite. Francis says he is the Messiah. Well, the guy that did that, he may not realize that. but he might as well say, I am the devil, because that is the voice of the devil. That's the accuser's voice to grab what you say out of context, to hit you with it. That's happened to me a million times, and just the spirit behind it, it's certainly not Jesus.

We know that. It's people that just want to hurt you because they don't like you. They don't like something about. I want to ask you about your experience with Mike Bickle. How did you, coming from where you are, come to be friends with somebody who is, you know, in a different part of the pool? Yeah, it was kind of an accident. He invited me to speak at a conference. You know, I looked at it.

There were many thousands of young people. I said yes. And then suddenly I got all this hate mail of why did you say yes to him? And I'm thinking, oh, man, why did I say yes to him? Well, he seemed okay. And so when I got there, I had so many questions for him. And he was so gracious in answering them all. and not defensive at all.

And I'm going, wow, this guy is pretty amazing. As I talk to his staff, talk to the people who know him, talk to his wife, the people that live right there with him. Every year I would go, this guy is one of the most humble, God-fearing men I've met, and God has worked through him supernaturally. He has sacrificed so much for the kingdom. Is dedication, his knowledge? Forgive me, I'm getting the high sign. We'll be right back, folks, talking to Francis Chan. Don't go away.

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do your family a favor and get the Tuttle Twins books. Tuttle Twins.com use the coupon code metaxis. Hey there, folks. I'm talking to Francis Chan. What is that, Irish? Yes. Francis, you lived in Hong Kong as a kid, you said? Yeah, first five years in my life.

And you were raised. I mean, what you just shared in a few seconds about losing. losing your mother in childbirth, losing a stepmother, losing your father. Like, I cannot imagine what that would be like. When did Jesus become like real to you? Did you have a born again moment or was it a process? How did that work for you? It was a process, but I would say in high school, a youth pastor.

You know, I went to a youth group that some friends took me to. and he got me started reading the Bible and into this relationship where I'm up at 6 a.m. as a high school student every day, trying to begin this relationship with Jesus. And it was fascinating. Like the way he would answer prayers, like all the stories we heard in Kansas City, so many of those things began to happen in my life as a teenager. and I just I just was on fire. I just thought I need to tell everyone about this Jesus. So it was high school where it all started for me. And when did you, did you ever experience the miraculous or were you hanging out with those people? And at what point you get with a group of people that says this is not for today?

Yeah. That wasn't until, so I believed in it because I'd see it in scripture and I would, but I never saw miracles other than. supernatural answers to prayer when I would pray. But I never saw the miracles. And then when I went off to Bible College and seminary, they told me, yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. That stuff ceased after the Bible was canonized. And so I didn't believe in it for many years, even though I did as a kid.

But once I went to seminary, that went away. And but wouldn't you hear stories from missionaries or something? I always feel like you bump into missionaries. They tell you some insane story and you know it's real. Did that challenge you or did you just kind of put that in a box, missionary box? Yeah, I don't know. I kind of put it in a box and I was pretty hardcore like this doesn't happen today. But then you do begin these relationships with people.

You begin to trust and they look you in the eye and go, no, this happened. to me, and you're going, well, it's kind of like what we were going through in Kansas. We're like, gosh, that's hard to believe. But it's not because I look in the Bible and go that perfectly squares with the Bible. I just don't see it that often. Yeah. So I think that's where it began to be surprising to me when people I trusted said, no, I've seen things just like you read about in the Bible.

Well, that's part of the challenge, isn't it? That people who don't believe in the stuff hang out with people who don't believe in it. and the people who believe in it, hang out with people who believe in it. And I noticed, and this is why it was fun to process what happened in Kansas City with you is because people who are living in this stuff, sometimes they're very annoying because they don't give it sufficient, wow. Like they just say, you know, and then the guy turns into a bird and flies away. And you're like, hey, hey, hey, shut up. What did you just say?

What did you just say? Like the guy's arm literally grew back from the stump. Did you just say that? What's wrong with you? Like you say it like I'm chewing gum. You just talked about an insane miracle. But they kind of act like, well, yeah, they don't seem to be able to give it context. So unless you're part of that world, you just think those people are, they're just kind of half nuts.

They're not perceiving the same reality. I got to tell you this story. Because after Kansas City, you know, my two teenage kids went to summer camp with Andy at YWAM. and my son facetimes me as I'm driving to L.A. And he's like, Dad, I mean, he's just freaking out, 15 years old. He goes, you know Jimmy? You know, his friend Jimmy, who has like this high-pitched voice like this. He's been talking like that since he was a kid.

He's 17. I want to pay for an operation, anything. Nothing doctors can do. Are you serious? Wow, it's that bad. It's horrible. I thought I will pay for it. just tell me how much.

I don't want that kid growing up like that. He's at camp. First night, everyone is getting healed. Jimmy is singing and suddenly, boom, his voice turns into a man's voice. He freaks out, runs on stage and starts preaching in a man's voice. You know, hundreds of high school are screaming. My son just like crying falls on his face in the,

fear of God. And, you know, but as he's explained, then he hands the phone to Jimmy and he's talking to me like this. And I'm going, what in the world just happened to you? He's crying. His parents are crying. I mean, this, it happens. And, you know, I've even seen it happen several times since we've been together.

But I'm still like blown out of my mind. My kids are blown out of their mind. But that's where I think we get. bothered when people just talk about it like oh yeah and then this blind guy blind guy opened his eyes and he saw everything right i know and you think wait a minute that should be in the papers do you understand like that's a big deal and they're like i don't know i don't get it we talked about other stuff we talked about i mean you were in san francisco for a long time and we talked about kind of the gay issue and how hard that is suddenly for the church to navigate because we have this biblical ethic

and we know we want to love people where they are so a lot of times we don't talk about something because other people talk about it too much. And navigating that. And my answer is that there is no answer. You can get it wrong in either direction. I keep thinking of the 15 or 16-year-old boy who is struggling with something and nobody is giving him truth and hope. They're just saying, this is the path for you.

And if you don't go down this, you're denying something fundamental or whatever. And my heart goes out to that kid, basically, who's growing up in a culture where even the church is not talking about helping him. And a lot of people in churches, they don't believe in that kind of that you could be healed or changed or anything like that. So it's just hard. There's no right answer. Yeah. And I think the key is like what you said, your heart goes out to him. It's about this love. It's like looking at a human being and loving them so deeply from within. Otherwise, like 1st Corinthians 13 says, you're just like this noisy gong. You're just like this grating sound in his ears rather than

going, gosh, I love you so much. And when I read this book, we're going to stand before God. And he loves you. This is who he is, but we are going to stand before him. And so out of love, you want to be honest with some of these things and at least encourage them. Hey, just look at this book. But let me tell you something. This God created you.

He knows everything about you. He loves you. you, man, there's stuff in me too. And it, you know, I want to let's pick this up. We're going to another break. Folks, I'm talking to Francis Chan. You're not going any place. Hey there, folks.

Couple of minutes left with Francis Chan. Francis, we're talking about that issue, about love and how we can get it wrong in both directions. And I know I have. I know I have. And it's hard because we don't want to be talking about theology and rules all the time. But sometimes it's the right thing. to do and I'm just worried. The reason I've become so outspoken, maybe to the point of too much,

is because I'm worried that everybody's pulled back. They're afraid to speak. And I'm thinking there are people out there who need to hear some hope or something different. They're just not hearing it anymore. It's not like it would have been 30 or 50 years ago. Well, and it's, it's one of those things where we don't ever want to make one segment of Christianity or one demand like the totality of it all. Right. One of my favorite testimonies. I don't know if you know a guy named Beckett Cook. I've had him on this program. He's a way better guest than you. I love Beckett. But one of the, my favorite statements was he was sharing about after he

fell in love with God and began this relationship with God, he tells one of his friends. And his friend looks at him and says, well, you know, you can't. can't keep sleeping with guys then. And Beckett just looks at him, he goes, seriously, you want to talk about sex? He goes, I just told you, I know the God of the universe, and you want to talk about sex. And the way he said it, I'm like, that's it. That's what I'm trying to communicate. Like, we're talking about knowing the one who created us and made us, but we've put

sexuality and everything's so high. And the way Beckett, I screamed when I heard him talk like that. Because I go, okay, finally, someone who gets it, we are talking about knowing God. What Eric and I are talking about right now is knowing the creator, the judge, the savior, saying that we are partakers of the divine nature. And so what color my skin is, you know, my, my sexual, design that's that's in a different category we're talking about knowing god and that's our heart and that has to come through and i think so often we can talk about issues almost in a way that

well i find the whole thing funny anytime i'm talking to you i find it funny but like to me it's funny on both sides because the reason his friend said that because his friend's like well you know in other words do you know now wait a minute you know that you can't do the this anymore because the friends kind of wondering do you do you get that whatever so the good the good news is that becket's like yes and by the way like i'm so past that but sometimes you want to check like are are you like are you tracking there because you do talk to people that say i'm a christian and then i kind want to be like what do you like born again like you read the bible you love jesus or are you just saying i'm a christian because i'm a gentile because i'm not a jew i'm not so it's it's just funny

as i said i think sometimes there's no right answer and i just find it funny that in the of it. We do our best. But I love Beckett, and we need to get them back on this program. Why did you write a book? We've just got like 30 seconds. Why did you write a book called Until Unity? Because it is all over the New Testament. God's heart for us to become perfectly one. Meanwhile, in our 21st century evangelical church, you got everyone bashing each other and believing they're doing that in the name of God. I just think it grieves the heart of God. And I want to be busy doing what he commanded us to do when he returns. And I see unity as a huge, huge theme and our only chance at reaching the world.

Well, I'm glad to have unity with you, my friend, Francis Chan. I know that the Lord is already using you to bless me to enlarge my heart. I'm just grateful for you. I hope to see you in person sooner rather than later. Give my best to your wife. God bless you. Talk to you soon. Thanks, sir.