The Eric Metaxas Show - Gabe and Rebekah Lyons

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Gabe and Rebekah Lyons join to discuss their book "The Fight for Us: Overcome What Divides to Build a Marriage That Thrives"

Welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show. They say it's a thin line between love and hate, but we're working every day to thicken that line, or at least to make it a double or triple line. Now here's your line jumping host, Eric Mattaxas. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the program. It's always my joy in this program to talk to people of whom I'm very fond. For example, my friends, Gabe and Rebecca Lyons are my guests right now. I could talk to them about anything, but they have a brand new book out called The Fight for Us, overcome what divides to build a marriage that thrives.

Now that rhymes. Gabe and Rebecca, congratulations on a rhyming title. How'd you pull that off? Well, you know, we just loved a rhyme. And we're like, we have to do that, obviously, on a book cover. Unity in a marriage is you have to know how to do good rhyme. these days. Yes, it's very, it's very important. So you guys, how many years have you two been married? 28. 28? Yes. Suzanne and I also have been married 28 years. Okay. I didn't realize that we had that in common.

Sounds like you need a book that rhymes as well. It's, it's, I've written many books where the, the, the, what's in the book rhymes. I've written the birthday ABC, the Bible. It's all rhymes. So I'm covered on the rhymes. But you guys, you've been very open. and honest about your wonderful marriage. So what led you to write the book, The Fight for Us, overcome what divides to build a marriage that thrives? What led you to say we want to write a book about this? I think over the last decade especially, we have seen so many couples that are hitting these moments in their marriage.

And sometimes it's early, you know, seven years in, 10 years in, but some even 20, 25 years in where they've given up on the marriage. They've kind of believed a cultural lie that if they were on, their own, they'd be better or they believe that maybe they married the wrong person and they just need to be on their own. And we just felt like God's vision for marriage is so much bigger than that. And when we've experienced the challenges that we've walked through in our marriage, it's really helped us determine that we're going to fight for each other instead of with each other. And so we thought it was an appropriate title because marriage is a fight.

Like if you're going to stay married, you're going to go through a lot of moments with your spouse that aren't always easy where there's misunderstanding. there's different opinions, different levels of intensity, and yet you have to stay in it because that's the vision God's given us. And so we wanted to tell our story about that. Well, I got a lot to say, and I was going to say, you could be married to the most wonderful person in the world, and Suzanne is. And yet we struggle. That was a joke. But honestly, this idea that when you just said when people ask, maybe I'm married to the wrong person, there's a cavalier joke answer to that, which is also true.

If you want to know whether you're married to the wrong person, check your marriage certificate because that will tell you who you're supposed to stay with for the rest of your life. And this idea that I have seen in the church where people just like walk away from a marriage, I mean, I just want to ask the two of you, where do people get the idea? And this makes me angry that you can walk away from someone that you've vass. before God and scores of people that you're going to be with them till death do you part. Where do Christians possibly get the idea that divorce is okay? Because I think part of the reason Suzanne and I are still married is because divorce is not an

option. When you think that there's an option, when things get really, really tough, you think, well, there's that door over there instead of fighting. You guys are talking about fighting because I, I think every marriage, and, you know, I'm joking around about being married to the most wonderful person. I am married to the most wonderful person. And that doesn't mean that marriage is easy. And I think that anybody that's been married for a while understands that. So where do you think that happened in the church? Because this is my main thing is when I see people say like, oh, yeah, they got

divorced. You go, wait, what? What do you mean they got divorced? You're Christians. Where did they get the idea that that was like a plausible option? I mean, I have to say I'm heartbroken and scandalized by that whenever I see it. And I've seen it so many times. Yeah. I think what we have found in so many conversations, interviews, people we've counseled, is that over time, they keep missing each other and despair, defeat, resignation, settles in.

And we know that that is coming from the enemy. We know that he's planting, he accuses, and gets them to agree that their spouse is the enemy, that maybe there's so much hurt or origins. stories of trauma that are brought into the relationship and they're never healed with a counselor that's about the marriage like fighting for the marriage. And so often they'll go to separate counselors or separate therapists and they'll want to get, you know, healed or or figure out their process of what's going on. But it doesn't always repair the relationship.

It almost drifts further apart because now they've evolved and now they've discovered all these things that's good for them but not great for the relationship. or not great for them to submit mutually under Christ in the relationship. And so partly it's just the cultural narrative now that if it's too hard, you get out. And the conviction of the spirit to stay starts to wane if you're not walking in step with the spirit, if you're not like humbling yourself in the scriptures, if you're not just coming back to each other and going whatever it takes, I'm willing to do the work.

Yeah, and I would say too, Eric, you know, culturally, we're all swimming in this world now that does say, look, marriage is about happiness. It's about just the two of you being happy and fulfilled in life. It becomes very individualistic and myopic versus the vision of marriage being about connecting parents and children and generations and having this bigger covenantal view. And so I think even in the church, because of all that noise, all of the inputs, people start to believe like, yeah, maybe God's okay with this. I think he'd be fine with me just being on my own to self-actualize or because I'm not happy

God would want me happy. And they just miss out on the ultimate healing, redemption, and renewal that God likely has for them if they stay in the marriage. And they're willing to fight through some of these challenges that likely is like in our marriage. Like Rebecca's been that mirror that's revealed to me, my sin, has revealed to me my selfishness, has revealed to me hardheartedness. And that's been what God's used to actually hopefully sanctify me and move me to be a better

human being. You know what, that's such a hugely important point that you just made. And I think about that in my own marriage. Absolutely, Suzanne has revealed to me my own sinfulness without trying. And you realize that's part of, Tim Kelly used to talk about this, that that's what, that's a big part of what marriage is. And it's so beautiful. And when, when people decide, like, I'm just going to walk away, I mean, I just want to say clearly to any

who's out there that, to me, this is clearly unbiblical. You can't just walk away from a marriage. Now, if there's abuse, if there's adultery, well, at least we could talk about it then. But if there's not physical abuse or adultery, the idea that I'm just not happy and I think I'd be happier. Where did you get the idea that that was on the table? Now, we know that's on the table in the culture. But I'm talking about it in the church when people say, I am a Christian. if you're a Christian, divorce is not an option, which means you have to understand that it is God's will for you to fight for the marriage. That that's God's will for you. And then the only question is how.

And that's what your book is about, the how, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. I think what happens is we say you're not supposed to do this. And the scripture, we're not saying it. The scriptures are very clear. What happens, the breakdown is there is a lack of equipping. I think for people who are in the depths of pain and struggle, and there might not be physical abuse,

there might not be impidelity. But for whatever reason, all of their childhood trauma or whatever it is is coming out with one another. And they don't have good guidance or clarity or biblical counsel to know how to repair. They're both kind of coming in emotional orphans often and don't have the tools and the resources to go, okay, where do we begin to heal? Because the other option is, yes, we'll stay, but we won't have a real relationship.

We'll be roommates, we'll coexist. And a lot of marriages in the church do do that. And they don't even have a glimpse or an imagination for a resurrected marriage, a new creation, a new way of loving and serving one another. And so there's a lot of learning. There's a learning curve. It's either like stay and just get through it or walk away. but what about what God's way is like, no, love each other in the way that I love the church.

Like the husband loves a wife, like Christ loves the church. Well, that's going to take a husband that's done a lot of work, right, to put his ego to death, right? To go, I want to live and give my life for my wife and my kids. I want a generational line of legacy to follow behind me who love and fear God. That doesn't come casually. Forgive me for interrupt. And going to a break, folks, I'm talking to Rebecca and Gabe. Lions. The book is The Fight for Us.

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MyPillow.com. Mypillow.com. Use the code. Eric. Welcome back, folks. I'm talking to my friends, Gabe Lyons and Rebecca Lyons. They have a book out called The Fight for Us, Overcome with Divides, to build a marriage that thrives. Rebecca, you were just making a point and we had to go to a break. Please, please continue. I was just saying the work. It's the work required to repair. And we need biblical, godly counsel to help us do that well and not just get through marriage. because we have a covenant to stay, but go, how can we have a resurrected, like a new creation in this marriage where we delight in one another?

We love each other. We've learned how those rough edges have been rounded out. They've been sanded down. We've humbled ourselves over and over and over. We've understood repentance and forgiveness. We're not resentful or keeping a record of wrongs. That takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of humility.

It takes a lot of compromise. Yeah. So we walk people through. how to do this. We tell our own stories of our fights and some of the biggest ones we've ever had, you know, and some of the moments that we thought we were despairing and weren't sure how we were going to make it out of the hole we were in. And yet God's helped us through that. And so we try to help people know why we fight, what are the things that motivate a lot of our fighting and even how we fight. But then we try to move readers through this process of understanding how

to move from fighting to feeling and the importance of learning how to recognize feeling, something that a lot of us didn't grow up in homes where that was a natural part of the conversation. You know, we grew up with parents many times in the silent generation talking about our feelings was like, no, that's weak. We don't do that sort of thing. Like grow up, get strong. I mean, I grew up in an environment like that. And I saw in a marriage how that became a bit of a handicap. When Rebecca is wanting to connect and talk and I don't even know how to have empathy, I kind of go through a bit of a relearning process. And Rebecca had to go through her own journey too to relearn the ways in which she would relate to a man.

She grew up in a different kind of home where, you know, her parents both worked. Her father and her mother. Her mother was very driven and educated and worked in the school system, education system. And so she grew up in a very independent world where she was like, hey, I'm a woman, I'm independent. I can do this. And we had to figure out like how do the two of us. come together in that and work together. And so we try to walk couples through all the areas that create friction in a marriage,

whether it's parenting, finances and money, sex, community, career decisions. And we walk through how do you navigate those tensions well in a healthy way where you learn how to humble yourself, learn how to support one another well, and by better understanding how to feel, we can learn how to connect better with one another and experience a thriving marriage. There's one thing that I always think of is that one of the reasons, you know, one of the ways that I think you make it possible for marriage to thrive is if the other person in the marriage knows, you're never going to walk away. Because if they, if they feel that you might, then in a way, I mean, it would be just like saying, like,

if I do the wrong thing, Jesus will walk away. away from me. We know he won't. We know he won't. He loves us that much. And obviously, that's what marriage is supposed to be, that I love the person so much that I'm just not going to walk away. That that's not, you know, so it doesn't become performance based. Like, oh, I better be careful. That, I mean, that's just been huge in our marriage that Suzanne and I know that we're going to be there. And I kind of, I was just talking about this. I don't know if it was yesterday the day before, I was like shuddering at the thought of what would it be like to be in a marriage where you do not know if this person to whom you've given your whole life might betray you, might just at some point

walk away. And I thought living with that even as a possibility, it's so corrosive. It's like it's almost inevitable that that will destroy the marriage if you don't have that sense that this person wouldn't do that. Right. We talk about in the book, there are two primary. needs that every marriage has and that's security and belief. And the security can look a lot of different ways. It can look like, I know you're not going to leave the room. I know that you're not going to leave this marriage. So I'm secure in our relationship.

It might be financial security, whatever that looks like for the male or the female in that particular season. The other thing is belief that not only do I, am I not going to walk away. I believe that God's going to keep going and heal and do the restorative work. I believe that he's going to blow wind on your vocation or my vocation. There are different times in marriage where we celebrate and kind of put the gas pedal on belief. When Gabe and I stepped out and started what we now run called Think Media and this nonprofit, we were only married about five years, had about six months of living in the bank and we're just trusting God.

But it took me believing in Gabe and just taking that risk with him. In the same way, he's going, no matter what, if I have to go work at Home Depot, I'm going to provide for our family. So there's a security that that warranted me. I think people are afraid in marriages if there's a lack of security, like you said, I might drift. I might walk away. And I think a lot of men feel sometimes a lack of belief from their wives.

They feel maybe alone. Maybe they're getting more belief at work or more belief in their colleagues. And so part of it's going, how do we draw closer and turn toward one another in those primal needs because if they're not being met by each other, they will be met by somebody else. And so getting honest about that. Another thing we talk about is these four dysfunctional dances that are so normal in a marriage. And they're silent, intense, avoidant, and anxious. And they're triggered when stress enters.

And so a lot of times people get in this intense dance. And over the years, it just grow weary. And they're like, I don't, I just don't want to keep fighting. I'm so tired of fighting. I feel like we don't even like each other anymore. the kids we're fighting in front of the kids maybe if we walk away we'll stop fighting so part of the exit is the shame that makes us hide going well i can't get this right so maybe it's better if we're not together i'm not justifying it this is just what we find is happening in the brain to going like

how do we diffuse and deescalate this intense dance and eric i would just add your point that if people think the doors open for one person to leave, it does mean the other party is likely going to shut down their heart. They're not going to be vulnerable. They're not going to share their deepest wrongings because they're always scared that that's going to make the person leave. And so we do need this firm commitment to one another to say that's not an option. That's not an option for us. I commit to that, Rebecca. She commits that to me. And now we have this safe zone where, hey, things get intense or we have big disagreements. But we know that's not on the table. And when you have that security, you have the fortitude to start working through anything. And you can also in that moment say, even though we're not going to walk away, there are areas of our relationship that are unwell. They are not healthy. We have to take them seriously. Us promising to stay doesn't mean we diminish that there's dysfunction or there's things that need to be healed.

But then that means both parties must be willing to go together into a therapist or into a spiritual counselor and just go, we want to fight for this. but we need help. And there are times where I have more energy to fight than Gabe or he has more energy to fight than I do. But I know that when we both are willing and we'll do whatever it takes, then we can get somewhere. Yeah. And I think people have to know that it's the Lord's will that you stay together. In other words, if you don't, if you have the door opening your mind like, well, I wonder,

I wonder. It's like, no, no, no, it is the Lord's will and the Lord wants to help us. And it doesn't mean we don't go through tough stuff. people need to know that is the Lord's will, that he wants us to stay together. He wants us to fight for our marriage. And, you know, I just want to applaud the two of you for being open about your struggles. I've tried to be open about my own struggles in life because I think people need to know that life is tough.

Marriage is tough. Good marriages are sometimes very tough. That's normal. And I think if people don't know that, then they kind of think, well, my marriage, this must be, this is obviously evidence that, you know, it's not meant to be or something like that. And that's why I think it's important for folks like the two of you and others, Christian leaders, when they can with wisdom to share their struggles, to let people know, like, look, we're going through this. This is not something that is just you're going through it, that most of us go through this stuff in one way or the other. And you've been honest, both of you about talking about mental health struggles.

I mean, that's been a struggle in my marriage. I've been open about the fact that I've dealt with depression. I think what a bummer to put on a spouse that my wife has to deal with that in me and the love that takes and how hard that can be on a couple. Yeah. No, and I loved how much you've opened up about that in your own journey because that's what over the last decade as Rebecca shared her own journey through panic attacks and dealing with anxiety, it's been amazing to see how many people are willing to then come about and

say, yeah, I've been struggling with that too. And I think in marriage, that's our hope is to say, look, it's a fight for our marriage. You know, we took the compatibility test in college and we were incompatible. People said, you guys probably shouldn't get married because you don't, on the little assessment, show up as compatible. And yet we look back over 28 years and go, we feel compatible. Like we've worked through those kind of rough edges because God had a different vision for our life and he wanted to sharpen us in that. And so yeah, don't believe the lie that you're not with the right person or that God doesn't want you to continue in this marriage. He absolutely wants that. And the enemy will use everything he can to try to create division and make you

believe a lie. I'm talking to Rebecca and Gabe Lyons, L-Y-O-N-S. The book is The Fight for Us. Overcome with D divides to Build a Marriage that Thrives. We'll be right back. Get a rock and roll feeling in your bones, but taps on your toes and get gone, get rhythm. When you get to blues, a little shoe shine. Welcome back. I'm talking to my friends, Gabe and Rebecca Lyons. They have a book out about marriage. It's called The Fight for Us, Overcome What Divides to Build a Marriage that Thrive.

So the title, The Fight for Us, that's a beautiful title. Talk a little bit more about that. You've touched on it, but it's a great concept. So that title actually came about a couple years ago when we were only in the very beginning stages of even thinking about this book. And we had had a fight. We had had a pretty bad fight that day. And it wasn't often, but when it did happen, we both were like, oh.

And so we're going to bed that night and I'm laying there on the pillow and I'm like, I know, I know I had a, I played a part in this and I need to just repent and say, I'm sorry. And I just, because I do not want to go to sleep dealing with this and waking up tomorrow and having the awkward silent treatment. And so I just said, babe, I'm sorry. I know I reacted in this way and I'm really sorry. And I think something is coming out that I need to get with the Lord and go, what is that about?

Why is that so triggering for me? And we'll unpack that. But regardless, I'm sorry for the way in which I was disrespectful or whatever, dishonoring, whatever it was. And then he said, oh, babe, I'm sorry too. and then we just kind of like both felt all the love and all the humility in that moment because when we repent and God draws near, right? And then I said, I just want to keep fighting for us. And so it just was a very simple phrase. And Gabe goes, that would make a great book title.

But it's true. It's like, you know, here we are. Even then we were probably 25 years in. And we understand that marriage is hard and you do have to fight for each other. If you are left to your own, yourselves and you go to bed, turning your backs towards one another, and you ruminate in your mind, the enemy will have a heyday with that because he accuses and gets us to agree. So he'll play up how Gabe was so terrible

in the way he handled things and all of a sudden I'll feel so justified and not repenting. But when we repent, man, we return to one another. We return to God, but we return to one another. And so the fight for us just means, yes, of course, it's not going to be easy. Satan hates marriage. I mean, that's something that God ordained.

But it's going to create a generational line, which is important to God, that loves and fears him. So I need to humble myself in the moment. So it doesn't become bigger. And that's just a simple illustration of how to fight on a daily basis. In the book, you give some practical steps about how to reignite a marriage, how to dream together. Talk a little bit about that because we've just got a few minutes left.

Yeah, a lot of our work together over the last several years. has been around rhythms and we really want to help couples get back into rhythms together that feed health in their marriage. And that's everything from some of the basics that we all know of a date night once a week, planning time together. Looking at your life together, Rebecca and I do something every quarter where we take inventory, where we assess what's going right in our marriage and our family, what's going wrong, what's confused, what's missing. It's like doing a SWAT analysis on your life. And that creates all kinds of great conversations for us. So we stay on the same page. We keep having vision for the future together. But then we also daily try to take 15 minutes.

And Emerson Agerich, our mutual friend, we learned this from him. You know, love and respect talks about this. But take 15 minutes a day, shut the door if you've got little kids and let everybody know, like, this is our time. We're going to reconnect from the events of the day, from the things we've been dealing with, thinking about, and processing. And we're not going to do it for three hours, but we're going to give a little bit of time to just make sure Rebecca and I stay. connected because when we're connected, everything else starts to fall into place. The kids understand that mom and dad are committed to one another and they're not the number one priority.

Our relationship is. And so these kinds of practices as a couple, you know, we do little things. A lot of couples do this. We share our location with each other. We always know where one another's at. We just like all the transparency. We have access to one another social media and Instagram and DMs. Like there's just nothing hidden or calendars.

Like these are areas we have. found a lot of couples start to get into trouble because there's not high transparency. There's places where there can be secrets. And that starts to create distrust. And we want to help couples put everything on the table, have an honest relationship. Don't keep any secrets from one another. And we also want to play together because you can go a couple decades into marriage and you've lost yourself fully in emerging, emerging in work and children.

And we're like, let's recover, just play. Like permission to play and recreation. So I knew Gabe love golf and I'm like, he's going to be doing this the rest of his life so I can resent him or I can join him. So I took lessons and now we'll do things like that together and we'll go on hikes together. And it's just like, let's not make everything so intense. Let's do some things that are side by side and that are just fun. And I think when you start laughing more together and playing more together, even when you have those hiccups, they don't last as long. You know, it's funny, Suzanne, and I can be open about this, has absolutely refused to take.

golf lessons, but I want to be clear. Here's the good news. I hate golf. I don't play golf. So it works out, so it works out for us. It's magical that we do not play golf together. And we always do not play golf together every day of our lives, every day of our marriage. We do not play golf. It's just a beautiful thing that brings us together. Do you play tennis? Do you have any of those athletic things that you like together? No, no, man. I work out at the gym by myself.

run by myself, but we pray together. We pray together pretty much every day. It is cool to be intentional to dream together to, you know, we watch old films together. And I am resentful when she falls asleep before it's over. But you know what? There's forgiveness. But I really think dreaming together, doing things together, whatever it is, folks, it doesn't matter. Whatever it is, it's beautiful. And my goodness, my goodness. My goodness. And it's funny, I'm going to get choked up here. But as my mom has, you know, dealing with dementia and all that kind of stuff, Suzanne's stepping in, loving my mom, loving me by caring for my mom.

It's the ultimate heartbreaker. You know, if I ever thought I love Suzanne, this makes me love her a million times more. So the more time you spend over the years, the more you get to see each other, the more you get to love each other. We're at a time. Rebecca and Gabe Lyons, my friends, God bless you. thank you for all this. Thank you for the book. The book, ladies and gentlemen, is the fight for us. Rebecca and Gabe, thank you. Thank you. Okay, folks, as you know, every now and again,

we like to do a segment called Ask Metaxus. I play the role of Metaxus, and you ask the questions. Some of you have written in some questions, and I want to encourage you, if you have questions, please write to us. You can do it at Ericmetaxis.com. There's a, you know, contact, ericmetaxis.com. But I'd love to hear from you. So here are some questions we've gotten

in the last few weeks, and I'll do my best to answer them right now. Ready? Go. Okay. First question, Eric, this is Peter Fumo. Peter says, Eric, I read your fantastic biography

on Bonhofer. Thank you. And I have two questions for you. Number one, what's your opinion of the 2024 movie? And question two, is there any truth to what I've read that he might have been gay? Well, I might have been gay, and I'm not. Is there any truth to Bonhofer might have? Actually, I do want to talk about that.

Let me answer the first question first. What is your opinion of the 2024 movie, the Bonhofer movie? Well, I've said it many times on this program. I thought it was fantastic. Now, are there things about it that I might have done differently? Yes. And it's kind of impossible to turn a 600-page book into a two-hour film. So there's no winning there.

But even though the film is not officially based on my book, nonetheless, it's a story of Bonhofer. And to try to tell the whole story of his life in a two-hour film, it took me 600 pages in a book. And by the way, 600 pages that are well worth reading because he is so fascinating. But the short answer is, which I've said many times, I think the film's fantastic. I think if you haven't seen it, folks, you got to see it. When a film like this comes out, you got to see it.

You got to see it. It's just really tremendous. It came out in November of last year. the title is Bonhofer. And it came out, as I said, in just months ago. And if you haven't seen it, you got to see it. And it's the kind of thing you can bring anybody. But I've said this many times, so I don't want to beat a dead horse.

The second question that Peter Fumo asks is, is there any truth to what I've read that Bonhofer might have been gay? No. I can tell you that there's not. There's a bizarre book that came out called Strange Glory. And it's a kind of, it's a Bonhofer biography that manages to make Bonhofer seem unheroic and the book's kind of a bummer. But at the heart of the book is this thesis that, oh yeah, Bonhofer was secretly gay. Not only is there no evidence for this, there's a lot of evidence to the contrary.

And the author totally ignores that evidence. For example, and it's, you can see it in my own book, Bonhofer wrote, innumerable love letters to his fiancé. And he was excited about getting married. And the love letters are proof. You know, you can't fake that. I mean, tons and tons of these love letters between him and his fiance. So it's just lunacy to ignore all of that evidence and then based on effectively nothing to say, well, he probably was gay.

I mean, I think people do that to sell books. Maybe they don't, maybe they don't think of it that. that way, but that's how I see it. Like they find something you think, oh, what an exciting angle on Bonhofer. And so they kind of pump up a lot of nothing into what looks like something. But I think you have to be honest and say, no, there's not only no evidence, but there's a ton of evidence to the contrary. A ton of evidence to the contrary. So it's just bizarre.

And then you have to think of the whole definition, what does it mean to be gay? I mean, you know, if somebody has an inclination, do they recognize it as not God's will and then they don't pursue it? But you're going to say, well, but they're gay anyway. No, that's like saying, I'm an adulterer because I looked at a woman who's not my wife. It's like the question is, where do you go in your mind, where you go? You know, that's the real question. So, yeah, Bonhofer, I'm glad actually that Peter asked that question because that needs to be put to rest. Here's another question.

Eric, I'm sorry, Robert Blundon writes. Eric, just finished your book letter to the American Church. As a seven-decade Episcopalian, I've dropped away due to its politicization and see parallels to your description of the 1930s German church. That's with the Episcopal Church, which I agree with that. The problem for me is the Episcopal clergy and leadership think they are being Bonhoeffers. he is even quoted, Bonhoff is even quoted in their opinions. Please reference a podcast wherein you cover this issue or address it directly in an upcoming show.

My fear is that if you think you are a Bonhoeffer, like the bishop at the post-inuguration prayer service, they're not likely looking to discern rather than just cherry pick to justify their views. That says it exactly. Robert Blundon says it. I've encountered this over and over that you have people that are dyed in the wool, theological and political liberals. and for some reason they've decided that Bonhofer is their voice, and they quote him, but they quote him very selectively.

And I think that they think of themselves as being bold, brave, prophetic Bonhoeffers, but you know, you can be brave on the wrong side of an issue. So I think it's kind of odd in some ways that a lot of these folks. I mean, if you watched, I was invited to the prayer service, the day after the inauguration, and Suzanne and I did not go. And we were glad we didn't go when we saw that this elfin female, quote-unquote, bishop decides to use the occasion to excoriate the recently inaugurated president. I mean, it really was bizarre.

And I just don't, you know, it was a lot of emotion. So, yeah, so yes. Okay, then final question. Eric, this is Donald McKay writing. Eric, we love your Donald, the caveman books. Will you be picking them up again? I don't know what Donald McKay means when he says, will I be picking them up again?

I've written three. Donald drains the swamp. That's the first one. Donald builds the wall. That's the second one. Donald and the fake news. That's the third one. they really are funny.

The illustrations are brilliant done by my dear, dear friend, Tim Raglan. You can get them on Amazon and you can get them anywhere. You can also get them very inexpensively at my store.com. If you use the code Eric, you can get all three of them for like a super, super cheap price. Most of my books, the cheapest price for most of my books is my store.com. So a great opportunity to support Mike Lindell. But you have to use the code Eric to get the discount. Mystore.com.

But yes, if you don't have my Donald, the caveman books, what are you waiting for? We'll be right back. Folks, we still have more Ask Mataxis questions. So let me just take this very short segment to finish up because I didn't get to all the questions I have in front of me. Okay, here it is. You ready? Here's the question. It says, and actually in hour two today, who do we have coming up in the next hour?

I think, oh, Ethan Nicole, comedy, comedy. All right, but before we get to that, let me finish up with these Ask Mataxis questions. Here's the question. It is from Jim McKee. Jim McKee writes, he says, Eric, I want to thank you for your words, quote, there is no America without Christianity. I don't know when I said that, but I believe that.

He says that phrase, that phrase, there is no America without Christianity is what I, and I trust you, think every American public school student desperately needs to know. In other words, I believe that our children all need to learn about the Christian founding of America, if not the Christian foundation of our country. I'd love to know what you think of that. I've much enjoyed your emails. Now, by the way, if you don't get our emails, go to ericmetaxis.com. You're missing a lot that we don't have time to get to on this program. So go to ericmetaxis.com, sign up for the newsletter. But the question, is about the relationship that we have in America with Christian faith. And I say this, and I write about this in my book, if you can keep it, it's tricky to understand this. There would be no America without Christian faith. You can't get the kind of liberty that we have and self-government that we have without Christian faith. Now, the other side is that if you really believe in the Christian faith and you really believe in American liberty, then you also are obliged to believe in religious liberty, which means you cannot force Christianity. So it means you're

against theocracy, you're against Sharia law, but you're against Christian theocracy or the kind of, you know, when people talk about Christian nationalism, I think that's what they're thinking about. They're thinking about Christians taking over everything and imposing Christian views. And you can't do that. At the same time, you have to acknowledge that you cannot plausibly have genuine liberty on the American model without Christianity. And yes, that almost all of the founders were devout Christians, and certainly all of the founders, even those who were not at the time devout Christians, nonetheless understood that without virtue and without a culture that supports Christian faith and Christian thinking, you cannot have the kind of liberty that they were advocating. So I recommend my

book, if you can keep it. It's pretty easy to read and pretty short, but I think very important. So it's all in my book if you can keep it. Final question, Charles Megalus. Megules, forgive me, Charlie, if I'm mispronouncing that, says, hello, Eric, I attended your event at the Ocean City Tabernacle. this was on Memorial Day and wanted to ask you if you could share your thoughts on the Samaritan woman at the well unfortunately I didn't get a chance uh when you have a moment could you please share your interpretation of what Jesus was doing thanks in advance Charlie okay Charlie I have no idea what you're talking about I mean I know about the story of the Samaritan woman at the well but I'm not sure what you're what you're asking me so I don't know that I have an answer to that

It's a beautiful story. Of course, it actually happened. Jesus is at the well and is a Samaritan woman. That's where he says, you know, if you knew who it was that we're speaking with you, Jesus is talking to a Samaritan woman who is astonished that a religious Jew, a rabbi, would be speaking to her. So it's just beautiful. It's one of those beautiful stories.

so much to be said about it. So I'm not sure what Charlie and the question is looking for for me. But I do think that it's just one of the most beautiful stories in scripture and illustrative of how Jesus treated women, among other things. All right, we're out of time. We'll be right back.