The Eric Metaxas Show - George Gilder (Encore)

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

George Franklin Gilder is an American investor, author, economist, and co-founder of the Discovery Institute shares his latest book: Life after Capitalism: The Meaning of Wealth, the Future of the Economy, and the Time Theory of Money. (Encore)

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m. Investments.com. That's LegacyPMinvestments.com. Ladies and gentlemen, looking for something new and original, something unique and without equal. Look no further. Here comes the one and only Eric Mattaxas. Hey there, folks. Very special program today. I have. the joy of having in the studio. I don't know really where to begin on this one. Let me just say that I have the joy of having in the studio, George Gilder. Now, some of you will be familiar with George Gilder, but the problem with a figure like George Gilder is you could be familiar

with him in any kind of way. He's written a host of important books. We're going to be talking about the newest one. It's called Life After Capitalism, another very important book, but he's written many books. He is also the founder or a founding fellow of the Discovery Institute. You've heard me talk many times about the Discovery Institute. Co-founder? Hey, you're right here. When did you sneak in, George? George, seriously, it is so good to have you. Welcome to the program. I, um, the one thing that I was going to say at some point, I might as well get it out of the way now, is that, well, two things. For many years, just because I've known you here and there, I thought you're the ideal Socrates and the city guest. And to this day, I still haven't had you as my guest at Soxies

in the city, but we've had many Discovery Institute folks as my guest at Socrates in the city. I know you've attended some of them. So I wanted to say that. I also wanted to say, And this, I can never say this with any guest but you. If we look up in the studio here, this is our studio in New York City, there is a Tiffany, a Lewis Comfort Tiffany ceiling, a glass skylight above us, a beautiful skylight. And I rarely draw attention to it. But I just learned, if you weren't fascinating enough, already. I just learned that your great-grandfather was Lewis Comfort Tiffany.

Absolutely, yeah. Now, a lot of people could claim that. Do you have some identification that way of proving this? Well, my sister's name is Comfort Gilder, Comfort Tiffany Gilder. But, I mean, honestly, it's fascinating enough to me that I get to be in a studio with a Lewis Comfort Tiffany skylight above me, which most people don't ever get to see. But then to find out, that so you have a you know not just a storied life and career but a storied ancestry do you mind before we get into your very important book and your career talking about that how when did your family come to the United States and how did your great-grandfather get to be the maker of you know Tiffany's well this building my wife nini just told me was the

Century building. Yeah. A famous men's club around the turn of the century. And my great-grandfather, Richard Watson Gilder, was one of the key members of this Century Club and editor of Century Magazine. And his son, Rodman, married Comfort Tiffany, who was the son of Lewis, Tiffany, comfort Tiffany. So it's all in the family, isn't it? So it's all in the family, and I'm just really blessed by that window above, which...

Yeah, it's just hard to believe that I just want to be clear again, most of my guests are not the great-grandchildren of anything on the ceiling. I just want to be very clear. That's just typical, but today, We're diverting. Now, George, you're hard to sum up. I said that already. You're, if I may embarrass you, you're one of America's leading economic and technological thinkers. You are, in fact, the author of numerous, genuinely, not literally, but genuinely groundbreaking books, including wealth and poverty, knowledge and power, the scandal of money, life after Google.

you're often described as a futurist. What does that mean? In other words, does this simply mean that you think out of the box and you're able to identify trends accurately? I think it means I'm a historian who really plunges deeply into the fabric of the past and thus gains glimpses beyond the curtain of time. Right.

That's... Well, that's a very humble way of putting it. But you write about many, many different things. But you've written a lot about money and wealth. So the brand new book is titled Life After Capitalism. The subtitle is The Meaning of Wealth, The Future of the Economy, and the Time Theory of Money. Okay. So let's start at the beginning.

What is the thesis of this book? Wealth. is essentially knowledge. As Thomas Sol said years ago, the Neanderthal in his cave had all the physical resources we have today. The difference between our age and the Stone Age is entirely the growth of knowledge.

And if wealth is essentially knowledge, what is growth? What's economic growth? Growth is learning. I've been studying learning curves for decades. And after I wrote wealth and poverty, I got a call from Bill Bain, who has had a Bain and company in Boston and a leading expert on learning curves. And he said the reason supply-side economics works is not incentives, it's learning. And most learning. and most learning is tacit, and the reason companies grow is because of the tacit learning that goes on within their boundaries, not because of the transactions costs. All right, now who's going to translate this into modern English?

I don't know, but I'm going to take a crack at it. Let me, because actually this stuff is so deep and so powerful that I really do want to make sure that my audience understands where you're going. with this. So were you involved in the Reagan administration? I was. Yes, you were. I was, by some measures, President Reagan's most quoted living author. When President Reagan was shot by whoever shot John Hinckley, John Hinckley, and was in the hospital, and Bob Dole, his sort of, adversary in the Senate came to visit him. He gave him a copy of wealth and poverty. Wow. On camera. Really? Yeah, that was a big moment in my life. I didn't have any books out in those days, and I'd like to think that Dole would have given a copy of one of my books. But you know what's past is

past? I'm going to let it go. Seriously, you have been among the elites your whole life, And you just referred a moment ago to supply-side economics. A lot of people listening will not remember the term or understand that. And you just were making a distinction about what it is that makes supply-side economics work. A lot of people, of course, in the 80s, really perverted the idea of self-interest as part of how the market works and said it's greed, they made it self-interest in the negative sense. But you even, to some extent, in this book, take issue with the idea of self-interest itself. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't think, this was Adam Smith's great error, I think, to model an economy of human beings on a universe of matter and gravity. and he had physics envy. And he adopted what I call a materialist superstition. Okay. So Adam Smith in 1776 writes his classic book whose title escapes me.

The Wealth of Nations. I thought it was Huck Finn. All right. He writes the wealth of nations in 1776. And you say, and I want to explore this with you, we've got the time because it's very important. You say that he takes this materialist model and he gets at least something significant wrong. And you want to fix that. So we'll be talking more. We're talking to George Gilder. Don't go away. For 10 years, Patriot Mobile has been America's

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Welcome back. I have the joy of speaking with George Gilder, whose most recent book is titled Life After Capitalism, the meaning of wealth, the future of the economy, and the time theory of money. So just as a tutorial for me and my audience, you're correcting Adam Smith's kind of classic definition of the market and capitalism. And do you disagree utterly or are you just correcting him? I'm correcting. But it's a fundamental error that has persisted throughout all economics. And I think disabled economics. It's incurred a materialist superstition, a belief that wealth is essentially matter,

that it's essentially resources, it's essentially a limited material planet, governed by scarcity. Okay, if that's the case, does that lead us to the zero-sum game view of wealth, which is anti-capitalist? Yes. Okay. So you're saying that the standard definition of capitalism has within it the seeds of its own destruction. That's right. Wow, I'm glad I understood this correctly. You do. And Marx reinforced it by calling it capitalism. And I think inadvertently did introduce the crucial fact in capitalism, which is wealth is created by mine.

Caput is head. And capitalism is really the mind-centered system, which is dominated by human creativity in the image of his creator. Okay, boy, this is fascinating. I guess I want to, again, review here. You say in the book that the seeds of this new era were sewn in 1971 when Richard Nixon and Milton Friedman, well, why don't you tell that story? In 1971, President Nixon guided by Milton Friedman's monetary theory,

which said money is essentially a scarce resource governed by its supply. And Nixon took us off the gold standard. And this divorced money from its roots in actual realities of nature and ultimately its roots in the passage of time. And that's what I think is a critical error of monitorism because I believe money is essentially time. It's not a commodity that's governed by the scarcity of its supply. It's governed by what remains scarce when everything else grows abundant, and that is time.

And money is the way time, the passage of time, the passage of time, the ultimate measuring stick is integrated in all the transactions across an economy. Well, just to establish ourselves here, though, most people would think of you as a fiscal conservative, somebody who believes in the free market ostensibly. So were you involved in Reagan's monetary policy directly? I wasn't involved in, really. My chief role with Reagan really was to encourage him to do SDI, the Strategic Defense Initiative, and the microchip.

I gave him his first microchip. It was Micron DRAM I gave to him, and he looked at it, and I told him this shortly, we'll be able to govern all the defensive. technologies of a strategic defense initiative. And that was really my most important thing. And my cousin was... That's not an important thing, George. I just want to pause here to say thank you for helping bring down the Soviet Union.

And I'm not kidding, of course. My goodness. Well, I still want to understand your views on economic, since that's what this book is about life after capitalism. You're a free market economist. You believe you're anti-communist, anti-socialist, but you're, in a sense, in this book, helping us to redefine what real capitalism is

or what the real free market is. Yeah. It transcends the materialist superstition. It's mind is separate from matter and is ultimately hierarchical in a hierarchical universe is the theme of this book. Mind is separate. This is very heady stuff. Mind is separate from matter. What you're saying, of course, normally I would be talking to somebody like, you know, Dr. John Lennox about this.

But the idea is that we're not materialists. We believe there's something that transcends the material, that we have souls, that there is a mind beyond our brain. So that's an important philosophical distinction that you're making and making the larger point. And I'm saying that pervades all our sciences today, that the fundamental scientific principle that underlies all our wealth today is the separation of mind from matter, and it's called information theory. And it shows that the conduit for information is manipulating information is separate from the information itself. In computer science, there's seven layers above the material layer.

All right, now you've lost me, but that's okay. But anyway, it's a, the physical layer, no matter how much you know about the physics of a computer, if you spend all your life studying the materials, essentially beach sand, aluminum, and, and I. oxygen that comprise a computer, you still have no idea what the computer's doing. Okay, because information, language, these are things that cannot rightly be described as in any way material. That's correct. Which is a fascinating concept. Dr. John Lennox, I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he and I spoke.

I am. I went to your Socrates in the city with John Lund. Oh, you did? Okay. See, I didn't know that. But we've had a few. And basically, that's an extraordinary idea because it points to God. It points to mind capital M.

And that, I guess, is at the heart of the thesis of the new book, Life After Capitalism, is you're trying to help us understand this. But I want to make sure that I'm getting this right. For example, right now, how do you feel about, I mean, we're off the gold stand, you know, for 50 plus years. How do you feel about cryptocurrencies? Do you think that those things are good or bad, or what do you think? I think they're good.

I wrote a book about cryptocurrencies called Life After Google. And I believe that ultimately the blockchain provides, the blockchain is at the heart of cryptocurrencies, and that the blockchain provides a way to reestablish global money. as a measuring stick, as opposed to, based on time, as opposed to a magic wand for politicians to steal from the future. And that's what's going on now. We have a hypertrophy of finance whereby politicians steal from the future in order to manipulate the economy. And that's why I call it life after capitalism. Okay, so what do you see happening now? I mean, the idea that we are,

how many trillions in debt, it's really sickening to me that this has happened. Well, the key numbers, I think, are, we're now up to close to $10 trillion a day of currency trading, $10 trillion every 24 hours just to duplicate the functions that the gold standard performed with very little trading. And what this really is allowed is it skewed the world economy into a hypertrophy of finance, where central banks essentially are instruments of government that usurp the market and usurp truth and impose power against knowledge. And this is the biggest threat to our wealth. We will be right.

I don't have any wealth, but thank you. We'll be right back with George Gilder. Tell me why Relief Factor is something. successful at lowering or eliminating pain. I'm often asked that question just the other night. I was asked that question. Well, the owners of Relief Factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal. That's right, designed to heal. And I agree with them. And the doctors who formulated relief factor for them selected the four best ingredients, yes, 100% drug-free ingredients. And each one of them helps your body deal with inflammation. Each of the four ingredients deals with

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Act fast. It won't last. Use promo code Eric for more specials. 800-9783057.3057. Use promo code Eric or Mypillow.com. Folks, welcome back. We hit pause on our conversation of George Gilder's new book, Life After Capitalism. Just to go back to when you came into the studio, George, your wife surprised me with a very dog-eared copy of my Bonhoeffer book. And there's a story that goes with that. And I thought it might be interesting for you to talk about that. Well, my daughters discovered the book, really.

and they loved it and read it. Both of them, they're responsible for some of the dog ears and underlining and writing within its pages. And then they gave it to my mother, who at the time was 95, 96 years old. She was in her well into her 90s, and she died a couple years ago. at 102.

But she, all her life, it had some problem with Germans. My father was killed in the Second World War and many of

her relatives in England were affected by the Second World. She was pretty antagonistic to Germans. and your book was just deeply important in moving to her in her final year. She read it devoutly and talked about it frequently.

It just was an important book in her life. And Nini suggested it might have helped her into heaven. It was a wonderful thing you did for my mother. and my daughters and our family. And now your wife is even reading the book. No, she's reading it. Finally made its way. Maybe she'd read it before.

I'm not sure. I was just going to say when I hear things like that, of course, I'm so honored to hear such a thing. But because my mother is German and grew up in Germany during this era, my grandfather was killed in the war. And I knew that he was not pro-Nazi. and if you know my relatives, most of them in what became East Germany, which is, of course, now, again, Germany. But you would not have described them as pro-Nazi and as someone who is the child and grandchildren of these people. It was my own question. What's the story? How did this happen?

So when I discovered the story of Bonhofer, I was astonished because I thought here's a guy who specifically because of his faith in Jesus, spoke up for the Jews and spoke against the Nazis. So that's my initial interest in him arose out of my own biography and my own ancestors. But it is fascinating when you realize, and it's true today, that there are always people swimming against the tide and not everyone in German. So that's why I can't take too seriously books like Daniel Goldhagen's, a book that almost in its own racist way paints all Germans as somehow uniquely evil. But it is fascinating.

because look, we're tribalists. You know, if somebody kills our people, we hate them. And, you know, that's kind of normal. But then one has to transcend that, or that's God's will, that we would transcend it. So it is fascinating to see the other side of the story and to see how many Germans gave their lives against Hitler. Yeah, yeah. But just how delightful to hear. They were the leading victims of Hitler.

Of course. And by banishing the Jews, they've... I wrote a book called The Israel Test that's about the central role of the Jews in history and how banishing Jews from your country results in the collapse of your economy and why Israel remains today a crucial bastion of American power and capitalist prosperity. We were mentioning earlier Michael Medved. He talks about that in his own books. We interviewed him at Socrates and the City about his book American Miracle and the sequel to it, which is God's Hand on America, amazing books.

People can watch that interview at Socratesandcity's and City.com. But it is so interesting how even if you didn't want to believe it, when you look at the facts, which you lay out in the book you just mentioned, it does seem eerie that. My goodness, those who bless Israel are blessed. You'd have to be moved by that if you're intellectually honest and say maybe there's more here than meets the eye. I want to ask you a little bit about your own story growing up. Where did you grow up? How did you grow up? Did you have faith growing up?

Were you raised as a pro-American? How, you know, I imagine. Well, my father, before he left for the war, got my mother. a house at 245 East 48th Street in Manhattan. My mother was a pianist and played with Yo-Yo Ma, played at her funeral. And she played, she was the oldest pianist ever to play with Yo-Yo Ma. She played with her after she was 100 years old. What?

Wow. So. You grew up in a home where your mother was a great musician. Yeah, she was studying at Juilliard and teaching at Bidler Quail School in Manhattan. And I was brought up in that house. And in the summers, we would go up to the Berkshires, where both sides of my family were. Okay, so you're an East Coast guy sitting under a... a ceiling today that was created by your great grandfather.

We'll be right back. We're talking to George Gilder. With the overturn of Roe v. Wade, lots of companies are coming out saying they'll pay for employee abortion travel and expenses. Most of you've heard about some of these companies. You've decided to stop shopping or doing business there, but did you know that you most likely own stock in those companies through your 401Ks, IRAs, and other investment accounts? Folks, this is a huge problem, and we need to do something about this to send a message

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I'm talking to George Gilder. George, your new book is Life After Capitalism. But I just want to follow the story of your life a little bit. So you grew up in Manhattan. How old were you when you lost your father in the war? About two. Oh, my goodness. I never really knew my father.

Right. And you grew up, your mother, of course, was a rather famous musician. So what was your path? Did you go to boarding school? Where did you go to college? My father's college roommate at Harvard was David Rockefeller. Not ringing any bells. Anybody?

Rockefeller? David Rockefeller? Okay. And David and he in 1936 went to Germany. after they graduated, and heard Hitler. And my father decided that this man was going to have to be stopped. And he returned to the United States, began civilian flight training, became the youngest, with David, the youngest member of the Council on Foreign Relations,

debated with Alan Dulles. and other leading figures about the need to enter into the Second World War. And opposed Roosevelt, who history tells us that Roosevelt was avidly engaged in propelling us into the Second World War. But my father was editor of the Crimson at Harvard, And on the 300th anniversary of Harvard, he wrote the cover editorial that ended. And it let the presence of this man in the White House at this time of our great Turson-Centery celebration serve as a useful antidote to the natural overemphasis on Harvard successes. Ha!

That's very funny. in a sly way. That would have been 1936. Somewhere. 37. I think it was 37. Yeah, because I thought Harvard was started in 1636. That's right.

It's 36. Wow. Okay, so your father and Rockefeller, hear Hitler, hear Herr Hitler in 1936. What do you suppose it was that your father heard? Because so many people were fooled by Hitler. It's astonishing. Well, he heard him. rant about Jews, I think.

I don't know. Another father, my father's roommates, was Walter Rosen, who was another great pilot lost in the Second World War. And he just felt that Hitler had to be stopped, and he devoted his life to stopping him. But what amazed me was about 10 years after I wrote, wrote wealth and poverty. And it was really amazing. I wrote that book in a couple years or less, and it came out just at the right time. It was adopted by Reagan. What year? What year did it come out?

In 1980 when Reagan was elected. Okay. But 10 years later, my uncle uncovered this manuscript that my father was working on when he died. And it was all about invisible capital, really about the materialist superstition. It was really, could have espoused the theme of wealth and poverty. And I felt I was somehow visited from beyond, as I wrote wealth and poverty.

I did not know my father was engaged in any such pursuit. He was working at Tiffany and company and doing civilian flight training, entered the Air Force, and lost in a B-17 bomber crossing the Atlantic. What year? What was he killed? He was at 1942. Wow. Wow. He was officially judged to have died in 1943, but he died in 1942. He was lost in 1942.

Unbelievable. Well, you, yeah, so you, so then you did following his footsteps and go to Harvard. Yes, I did. And what did you study? David sent me to Harvard. David Rockefeller sent you to Harvard. What did he, what did you study there? I studied really military strategy with Henry Kissinger.

I wasn't a very good student, but I really could study one thing at a time, and I was deeply engaged in studying military strategy, zero-sum games and positive-sum games. Thomas Schelling, who won Nobel Prize, was one of my favorite thinkers. This was in the 60s? This was in the 60s. So Kissinger was there in the 60s. That makes sense. Yeah.

Right. He was a young man during that time. But he was close to David and the Council on Foreign Relations. And he'd written nuclear weapons and foreign policy already, which was a bestseller. Right. And that's sort of captivated me. And that's what I studied. I learned strategy rather than economics.

When you graduated, what did you do and what did you hope to do? Well, I started a magazine while I was at Harvard with Bruce Chapman, my college roommate, who later started Discovery Institute. And that's how I know Bruce, yeah. What magazine did you start? Advance, a journal of Republican thought. And it was a critique of the Southern Strategy and the Goldwater capture of the Republican Party,

which I opposed at the time. I was a liberal Republican, as they say. Well, if you're hanging out with Rockefeller and Kissinger, to some extent, that's been known to happen. Have you evolved, to some extent, And it was that, you know, when somebody says somebody's a liberal or conservative, depends in what? Well, I certainly have, I'm certainly known to be a conservative.

Yes. And I think the fundamental thing is, in the beginning is the word. And I explained in this book how this is not only a biblical injunction, it's also, the foundation of all the great sciences of our era, from biotech to computer science, to community. We have to go to a break. This is so fascinating. Folks, we'll be right back. We're talking to George Gilder. Hey, folks, you've all helped support MyPillow and their employees in these tough economic times. Mike Lindell knows this and continues to give back to listeners with deals on his most popular products. For a limited time, the MyPillow six-pack bath towel set is back

in stock. Take it from me, these towels are highly recommended. They're luxuriously soft and super absorbent, meaning they actually function like a towel should. With a special deal, you'll get two bath towels, two hand towels, and two washcloths. A complete set normally 799. But for a limited time, go to Mypillow.com. Use promo code Eric to snag this set for just 3999. That's a 50% discount. Visit Mypillar.com today. Or dial 800-9783057 to grab this deal with promo code. Eric, act fast, they won't last. Use promo code Eric for more specials. 800-97783057. Use promo code Eric or Mypillow.com. Folks, this is one of the most important things we talk about on this program. We don't talk about it enough. But the money that you have in pension funds, 401Ks,

whatever it is, is effectively being controlled by people who are working against you and your values. A lot of us have money in funds that invest in, oh, Target, Amazon, you name it, all kinds of companies that are working dramatically against everything you believe in. So it's time that we wake up, we understand the financial power that we have and pull our money out of these kinds of places, which is why I have as my guest, the founder and CEO of Inspire on the program, Robert Netsley. Robert, we've talked about this before, but the power that we have financially is huge. But the reason things have gone to hell in a handbasket is because most of us don't have

a clue that we have this power. We kind of act like it's a separate thing and I go and I vote, you know, every two years or something. But every single day, tons of our money is. being used against us because of our investments. So before I let you talk, I want to tell people to go to inspireadvisors.com slash Eric, where you can fix this. You can find out what's happening with your money.

Inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. But Robert Netsley, when did you wake up to this and say, I want to solve this? Because this is as big as it gets. Well, it was about 12 years ago when I was working at Wells Fargo investment services, and I just got, you know, kicked in the rear end by discovery that I, here I am president to our local pro-life pregnancy center, and I own three stocks of companies manufacturing abortion drugs. And the Holy Spirit just convicted me on this issue that here I am, you know, fighting to save

the lives of these precious unborn, and yet I'm making money every time somebody has an abortion. And then you go down the laundry list of all these other issues, LGBT activism and human trafficking, you know, et cetera, et cetera, launched us into what we're doing now. And, and, you know, by God's grace, millions upon millions of Christians and other conservatives with similar values are waking up to the fact, uncomfortable fact that in your investment account, you own and are profiting from things that would make your stomach churn. And not only that, but because of the fund companies that you have your money placed in, those fund companies get to vote for the issues of these companies promote things like we're seeing in the news with Target and other.

others. That's your money at work, but it's at work against you. But it doesn't have to be that way. So that free report and that there's a way to fix it. It's very easy. Just got to be aware and take some simple steps. And we're putting some free work and reports out for listeners here, inspiredvisors.com slash Eric, like you mentioned. So people are informed and aware of what they can do to fix this because if we don't fix it, if you just sit there blindly going along, like, next you can get better. It's going to all get worse. And frankly, it's going to be your fault. for not doing anything. You know, we've got to do something about it and, you know, let God have the, have the results. But we can't just sit here and do nothing because that's how we got here in the first place. We've all got to become activists. We've all got to do. I think a lot of us just thought like, well, I'm just going to go along in my life. And, you know, I go to church on Sunday. And well, folks, there are things you need to do. And if you don't do it, you're responsible for things going to hell in a hand basket. So I want to ask you, please, first of all, this is free. Okay, this is free.

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