The Eric Metaxas Show - Hadley Arkes (continued)

Episode Date: January 3, 2024

Socrates in the studio conversation with Hadley Arkes 

Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. Did you ever see the movie The Blobs starring Steve McQueen? The blood-curdling prep of The Blob. Well, way back when, Eric had a small part in that film, but they had to cut his scene because the blob was supposed to eat him. But he kept spitting him out. Oh, the whole thing was just a disaster. Anyway, here's the guy who's not always that easy to digest.

Eric the Texas! Hey there, folks. hope you already know. I am very excited because this is the month of the year where we all get to be part of something, frankly, exciting and super positive. There's a lot of bad news in the world. It's wonderful when we get to do something good, unmitigated, wonderful, good. And every year at this time, and again, right now, this month, we partner with CSI, Christian Solidarity, Internet. national. To do something that I, oh, I'll get choked up if I think about it too much. You know, many of you know the story of what CSI does each year and you get to participate and most of

you do participate. I thought, why don't we bring on, he's one of the spokespeople for CSI Ambassador Todd Chapman is my guest right now. Todd, welcome back. Thanks, Eric. Always a pleasure to be on your program. And can I just, first of all, just say a big thank you to the Eric Metaxus listeners. I was just looking over back on the year how many slaves were freed by Eric Metaxis listeners. And it is over 1,200 human beings freed from slavery and set on the path to having a new life, hearing the good news that Jesus loves them. And he is the reason why they have been set free because other Jesus lovers have set them free. And they're onto a new. That's, it's 1,200 miracles. And so I just wanted to, man, that gives me goosebumps and chokes me up because it just shows that the love of God's people is alive and being transformative in the world. So thank you for being an emissary for CSI and what we do.

Well, thanks for saying that. I guess, you know, it's one of these things where I always say the same thing. I say it's hard to believe that we're living in a world where human beings are genuinely enslaved, not sort of enslaved, like genuinely. enslaved. And we know that in parts of Africa, around the world, but specifically in Africa, this is real and it's horrible. And when you hear the details, it's horrible. But then when you realize CSI is on the ground, actually doing something about this, all they need is some money because they can't do it for free. It's a gigantic operation. So, so Todd, you've had such experience with CSI over the

years. So tell my audience, because there are people tuning in today who actually don't know what CSI does and what CSI does with this program and the listeners of this program make possible during this time of year. So talk about that. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So CSI, first of all, does many, many things. We've been around since the 1970s, late 1970s. And we really are, we're a Christian civil rights organization, basically, in essence. And we campaign for religious liberty, human dignity. We assist victims of religious persecution all around the world, but especially in Africa and the Middle East, where it's very prevalent. And, of course, we free enslaved captives in Sudan. That's a work that we've actually been doing since the mid-1990s, freeing captives that were taken captive back when religious persecution in Sudan was very, very prevalent.

Arab-backed militias were basically set free to go and enslave anyone who didn't convert to Israel. Islam. And they took them back in those days to North Sudan, where they've been held captive ever since. And there's tens of thousands of people still in captivity today. Every year, CSI, thanks to generous donors like yours, is able to go and negotiate the release of those captives, bring them back to South Sudan, set them free, set them on the course to having a new life, reuniting them with their families, when they're able to find, we're able to find their families. And it's just a beautiful picture of God's redemption. And really a word. that I think, Eric, we agree. I know we agree, but hopefully our listeners do as well.

This is a work that every Christian needs to know about and at least consider being involved with. It's a $250 gift we're asking you to give. And with that, CSI affects the freedom of one of these Sudanese slaves. And so we have what we call slave retrievers. They go and they negotiate with, it's pretty typically cattle ranchers and farmers that have these captive slaves. And they've had them for 25, 30 years now, and we're able to negotiate their freedom. No money, exchanges hands. We actually use a cattle vaccine that they need and they can't get. We provide that to them. We've set the captives free, bring them back to South Sudan. We set them up with what we call a bag of hope, which has all sorts of things to get them started on a new life. Also a goat. The goat doesn't go in the

bag, but they get the goat along with the bag. And it's a beautiful picture of God setting them free. and you doing that in Jesus name, $250 gift. But I got to tell you, Eric Metaxus listeners, not uncommon for people to give $1,000, $5,000, even $10,000. And I think it just speaks to people catching the vision of the power and the impact they can have as they partner with CSI. Well, I want to say, again, this is something, folks, you should be excited that you can do this. This is a big deal. You can get your kids involved in this.

You can say, you know what we're going to do for Christmas? Here's the meaning of Christmas. Jesus came to set the captives free. He came from heaven to earth. He became a human being. You tell that story, why did he come? He came to set the captives free on every level. And this is a literalization that these are people that are actual captives in our day.

This is not a metaphor. This is not a history lesson. These are people today. who for no reason, there's no self-interest in it for you. You do this out of the goodness of your heart, out of gratitude to God. That to me is Christianity in a nutshell. You get nothing back. You do this because you can.

You do this because it's the right thing. You do this because it's a beautiful thing. And that's what Christians do. And we Christians, frankly, we've imported this Christian idea into the wider world so that every atheist and agnostic says, oh, I got to do good things. I got to care for the poor. I got to, you know, like, this comes from the scripture. This is not a normal thing in history.

In history, people enslave other people. That's what they do. Setting slaves free, that's the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so I want to say to my listeners, folks, you get to live this out. This is an opportunity. I haven't told you how. Go to metaxis talk.com. You'll see the banner right at the top.

Metaxistalk.com. There's the banner. When you click on the banner, it'll find you. You can follow it through and you'll see everything. Metaxustalk.com. If you prefer to call, we have a phone number. You can do it right now as we go to a break. 888-253-3522. If you call 888-253-3522, you'll talk to somebody there.

And I want to say what I always say, if anybody is able to give $250, that frees a slave. folks. That doesn't just free the slave. It sets them up in a life of freedom. You just heard Todd talk about all the details. We'll talk, cover it in other programs so you'll know more. But it's exciting that that amount of money literally will free a person. This is not an idea. This is not a hope. This is actually going to happen because we've done it in the past. We do it every year at this time. Anybody who can give $15,000, I just throw this out there. Anybody who can do that, it's tax deductible. you can do the math on how many slaves will be freed because there are people who can give a gift like that and who will give a gift like that. I offer myself for the evening to have dinner to spend

time with anybody who wants to give a gift like that. That's just something I can do. And so I just put that out there in case anybody is inclined to do that. But whatever you can give, whatever you can give, if it's not $250, if it's a fraction of that, just think about what you're doing. It's amazing to me that this is real. We get to be a part of this. Todd, how long have you been with CSI? I've been with CSI now for about four years. And so I'm a newbie.

I mean, you consider we've been around since 1977, but I love the work the CSI does. And it's so powerful. I mean, thousands of slaves are freed every year. And again, we do many other things. But this is kind of at the core of what we've do. We've done it for a long time. And Eric, we're not going to stop until we get every slave that we're aware of.

out of North Sudan and back home. It's just extraordinary. Folks, again, I want to say, I am so excited. I'm excited for you. You get to do this. You get to be a part of this. I get to be a part of this. Go to metaxis talk.com.

Click on the banner. Please do it. 888-253-3522. 888-25-3-3522. 888-253-3522 or Metaxus talk.com. God bless you as you give. Talk out to my limit tells the news. My head got wet in midnight to great.

Folks, you're listening to a Folks, you're listening to a special edition of the show. These are the audio versions of amazing conversations I had. Socrates in the studio. These have not aired yet. The videos are not out yet. We want to encourage you to go to Socrates in the cityplus.com. Socrates in the city plus.com.

Sign up. This goes live January 4th. You can see the videos. It's amazing. I also want to encourage you. If you haven't yet, go to metaxis talk.com and give to CSI. One of the greatest things you could conceivably do around the Christmas season. An amazing gift for anyone you can think of.

Go to metaxus talk.com. Click on the CSI banner. Be generous. It's a beautiful thing. Metaxistalka.com. And don't forget Socrates in the city plus.com. And incidentally, today's conversation is with the great Hadley Arcus at Socrates in the studio. Here it is.

So one of the brightest legal minds of our era, the heroic late Antonin Scalia, says we can't get a consensus on... Moral truth. These moral truths. Therefore, we cannot use them. And his friends would say, well, did you get a consensus on that point

that we can't have moral truth without consensus? Because we didn't get our ballot. If you had, we had, you would have had a, consents that. Well, first of all, isn't it his job? Or wasn't it his job? Isn't it the job of these justices to use their moral reasoning? And I mean, we have given them this job. You know, it's your job. And so they're shrinking from it because they're afraid someone will disapprove. Someone at a cocktail party will look at them funny. But you know the terrain. You know how deeply the premises of relativism and positivism really penetrated,

even at the Harvard School of Law. I mean, Antenina was a great man and a brilliant man. But he absorbed those things. That, he said, I can believe those as a Catholic. I can't be sure that anyone else knows them. Okay, how's that different from Mario Cuomo saying? Exactly the same thing. Okay, how shocking.

How shocking that, you know, Mario Cuomo says, like, oh, I can be personally opposed to abortion, but I can't, whatever. It's, I mean, the idea that that's the same reasoning, roughly speaking, that Scalia was using, it's like playing to the crowd, and it's literally your job not to play to the crowd. You've been given the job to make these decisions. It's your job. It's not a job you stole.

It's been given to you. It's legitimate. And you still shrink from doing it because you're worried about what someone will say. That's what it sounds like. No, I think it's just how what's settled in as a deep skepticism. It's like Justice Harlan in the 70s, rediscovering logical positivism, there's all the rage when he was an undergraduate at Princeton, that all these moral terms are really emotive.

They simply explain what people feel strongly about. There's nothing cognitive, no, no, no, no, no, not necessary truth to these propositions, right? And so you could find... But Scalia clearly didn't believe that. He believes in truth. He believed in truth and the idea of truth and right and wrong, obviously.

But he's saying because other people don't, I can't assert my belief in right and wrong. Look, he would hold... The local community has a right to ban topless dancing because, as he said, the community has the power, the rightful authority, to ban things because they are considered contra bonus against good morals. But he was not sure that underlying that judgment were actual truths that would, just the freedom of people to make those judgments.

But these are two kinds of judgments. But he said, on the matter of the child in the womb, he said, there's no legal answer to that. It's a matter of valued judgment on whether people, how much, they value the matter of the child of the womb. Okay, so is there no place he would go where something is pure, objective, moral truth? Because it sounds like, in other words, I can understand that there are places where you could say, well, it's gray, there are different points of view,

but surely there has to be some basis on, on which we can make moral decisions. But you're making it sound like even Justice Scalia was unwilling to say that. Well, look, he could help. He certainly, he could say he believed them. But I think what you're seeing are people saying, look, you find any serious disagreements about alerted men, about matters of right and wrong,

nothing surprising there. And we don't, if we simply leave it open to moral reasoning, we don't know where this is they going to go. So we just want to find some kind of formula that would at least, confined the decisions of judges. Right. Because they're just so distrusting

of what might people do, but at the same time they... And they're not worried about going too far in that direction. I mean, you can go wrong in either direction. No, they... They'd hope to leave it to people in the political arena to make them as though they could get them by. And that's not passing the buck? I think it is.

to think, can you really live out the life of a judge without saying anything substantive about the things that are... But isn't it the job of a judge to do that? The judge may not like it, but isn't that the job of the judge? Not the job of the politician. The politician can appoint judges, and then the judge is the judge. And that's his job.

And he's saying, well, I don't know. What was that famous line from Lernard Hand when someone tell them, I hope you'll do justice? They said, that's not my job. I'm doing the law. I'm doing the law. Look, there was this very serious turning away on this at the end of the 19th century, where people were losing their confidence about appealing to these moral truths. Not confident that other people would recognize them.

And so what you're saying to give the best thing to say for some of our friends is that they're just cautious and worried about what people are likely to do and look, they can go off creating these new species of gay rights and same sex and the right of a person to consider himself considering he's changed sex and

they just afraid of what happens when the whole thing is open to this moral reasoning rather than saying, okay it's open and what you do is counter it. But why do they so consistently shrink

from, you know, moral reasoning of that kind, they say there are these dangers, and you say, yes, there are these dangers, but obviously there are these dangers on the other side of not doing that, but they somehow seem to think this is the safe path, the middle path. Yeah, they think this is a safe path. In that path, there has been no safety

and no prudence. And what it means also, let me tell us, don't go beyond the surface to move to the core of things because that path is risky. You may not do it well and it could license mischief. And what we're saying is, look, you haven't created safety. This style has not brought us to anything better. And what you're doing also is you're barring us from reaching the most coherent judgments we convey. We're trying to explain what is the judgment what we're making here about the matter of the life at stake in abortions.

We just thought we can't reach the most coherent judgment we can make. We're trying to give an account of this law we're making. Well, it sounds like something that's happened more and more where we have somehow in our public life moved constantly, and in so many spheres, to, How do I put it? Really to bowing to the quote-unquote experts. In other words, you know, you're talking about the proverbial plowman,

where most people can understand things. Most people can understand, that's beautiful, that's ugly, that's right, that's wrong. That's a moral horror. That's a good thing. But something has happened. It goes beyond the law. This to me seems to me just to be a manifestation of it, where there are these cognizant,

These Mascente, these mandarins who say, only we can understand the legal reasoning. The common man doesn't need to understand, but we understand. And you're arguing that to some extent it's important that the common man understands why a law is a law. Perfect leaden. If the ordinary men here's a case involving abortion. And the court has said that you may not deny the abortion. What the order of man understands you're saying is there's something rightful about abortion. There's a rightness to it.

So the court, you know, we're talking about culture. I think the court has done more to transform and disfigure the culture than the other force over the last 50 years. The court in Road didn't really establish a right to abortion. They changed the culture. They changed abortion from something to be discouraged. a board, forbidden to something approved, celebrated, promoted. The fever is high. Teacher.

I think I said it a long while ago. I believe I said it. No, I think it was actually. Chuck Colson used to. I think it was Aristotle. Okay. Probably Aristotle. But the law is a teacher.

In other words, whether you like it or don't, when you make a law like Roe v. Wade, you've just said it. something happens. It's not just this thing that exists in a safe by itself. It affects behavior, perception, mores. That's inevitable. Of course.

But just go back to your very point on this. What the ordinary man understands and the difference between the technician or the expert, the conservatives overturned Roversus v. Wade, and they say, all we're telling you is that is not in the text, and we're saying it's not there.

but they do nothing to deal with all the moral understandings that have arisen about the rightness of this thing. They don't think that's their job. The ordinary person understands the court is saying something about the rights and wrongs of abortion.

And the conservative jurisprudence wants to hope that we're working within a very limited sphere, which is simply saying it's not in the Constitution, we're saying no more about it. We're not saying why

the law would be justified in restraining abortions, were simply saying we're putting it out there. And we're putting it out to value judgments. As you pointed out of this, value judgments is a term that came into play with nature and Max Weber. When people stop speaking about moral truths, they talk about how much value to you impute to this. Lincoln said,

the question is whether the black man is not or is a man. If he's not a man, he who is a man, can do with him what he pleases. But if he is a man, he too would have a right to be governed with his own consent. And Harry Jaffa said, the question of whether black man is a man cannot be, quote, value judgment. How much any of us value treating him as a human being? Well, if that's the case, what sense does it make to say the question of whether that child, the womb, is human, should be a, quote, value judgment. So there's no truth here that anchors us.

But when you see this, Justice Kavanaugh and his concurring opinion say, well, was a remarkable line, we said, some people actually believe the fetus is human. After almost 100 years of embryology, we thought we don't know anything about this. In other words, what kind of a theory puts a cultivated man, four years of Georgetown, prep, four years at Yale, three years at the law school, in a position where he could use a line like that. If it's only that he's possessed of some

kind of a theory that tells him why he can't reach the truths that are right before him. Okay, so this is, again, the argument of your book, Mere Natural Law, is that the originalist school of

thought in jurisprudence is, they're basically hamstrung by this theory. they're unable, they're not freed really to do their job. And I guess I'm wondering, do you think that they would say, look, we're lucky to get away with this, that if we push it, the backlash will be dramatic. I mean, what backlash would they face if they had written in their opinion, by the way, these, we now know these are human beings. We have the technology to show that these human beings in the womb are in fact human beings.

No, we're getting more backlash because they didn't say it. Well, good. Thank you. No, no, because it's the wrong kind of backlash. You're say, you're not saying it's a human being. So you're sending it back to the States, right? And so a woman there could feel that she's been dispossessed of something she regards, has counterregard, as an anger of her person. freedom. And you told me, I can't have this because 51% of people around me believe it's a human being? Is there beliefs against mine? That makes a profound difference. Okay. I'm guessing that there are people

who would argue, maybe originalists themselves, would argue that this is a process issue. By sending it back to the states, you're not saying that there isn't a right and wrong. But we we've got to follow the rules. And the rules are that we, at the federal level, can only say so much, now it's up to you. So you're going to end up with some decisions and situations that we would say are lamentable. But you say that's the price of freedom.

That's the price of living in an ordered republic. There is no way around that. But what a profound difference would have made if the court said, of course you recognize. We're sending it back to the States with the understanding that, of course, we're dealing with a small human being. And we ask, inviting the states to consider how you're going to reconcile the law on taking the life of the small being with the other laws on homicide. Because the laws on homicide have ever been indifferent to the size and age weight of the victim. You could have done it that way. of course, why would you not reach the substantive matter here?

And if you send it back that way, you'd say the so-called blue states are withholding the protection of law from a whole class of human beings. I mean, it took the courts a while in the 50s and 60s to work through the coils of federalism to explain why the federal government could reach into the south when the laws in those states were withholding protection from black people, and now I think there's some mystery. Once you understand you're dealing with, do you understand these are human lives being taken?

If so, how do you think, how do these people now say, well, we can't, this is a local issue, not a federal issue. You tell me, the federal government can intervene to protect people from suffering racial discrimination, but it can't intervene when the laws withhold, the states withhold the protection of law from the very lives of a certain class of human beings. or makes a profound difference if they could do.

But as you said, there's this constraint about saying anything of moral significance. Folks, you're listening to a special edition of the show. These are the audio versions of amazing conversations I had. Socrates in the studio. These have not aired yet. The videos are not out yet. We want to encourage you to go to Socrates in the cityplus.com. Socrates in the city plus.com.

Sign up. This goes live January 4th. you can see the videos. It's amazing. I also want to encourage you. If you haven't yet, go to metaxisotalkis talk.com and give to CSI. One of the greatest things you could conceivably do around the Christmas season. An amazing gift for anyone you can think of. Go to metaxis talk.com. Click on the CSI banner. Be generous. It's a beautiful thing. Metaxistock.com. And don't forget, Socrates in the city plus.com. And now here's my conversation. from Socrates in the studio, just for you.

Did none or do none of the six justices in the majority in Dobbs agree with you on this? Guessing? My hope is for a dear friend Samuel Lido, who's, I think, one of the premier jurists in my own lifetime. And he sees the matter, and he just feels constrained about what he can do. and he's hands it off. He might have set it up for another judge to do it later. But I think it's very disturbing when Justice Kavanaugh could say

the Constitution is neutral on abortion. It's like Stephen Dougson. The Constitution is neutral on slavery. You're free to vote it up or down. How did Kavanaugh put it? Did he actually say that way? It's neutral. It's neutral.

He said that the Constitution is neutral on abortion? Yeah. Yes. Kavanaugh said that. Yes. Do you think that the system is all processed and no substance, that we're free to do anything, choose genocide, to slavery, as long as we do it with all the trappings of legality?

And do you honestly think that there's nothing in the deep principles of this Constitution that has concerns about creating a license to take the lives of innocent beings? We think there's nothing in these deep. principles that would tell on that matter? No, it's a sense of what's been missing or what's been driven out of people by a certain kind of legal education. I guess I still think that because of the preceding decades and because of the, you know, the Warren and Berger courts and their theories that on some level those six justices in the majority in Dobbs, They've been on the defensive for so long that I would guess that they want to play it as safe as possible.

And they feel thrilled to be able to get away with what they got away with as though they got away with something and are disinclined to go as far as you would have them go just because of, you know, like muscle memory. They've been on the back foot for so long that they don't understand that. there's an opportunity to say some of the things that you think they ought to have said. That's as good or a poetic way of putting it as I think one might ever put it. I rest my case. No, I think it's important for us, Plowman, you know, to try to understand why people do what they do and why they don't do what they might do. And, you know, I'm trying to to fathom how six justices that I would probably agree with on most things would lack the

metal to do the right thing. There's an old line of a common law judge saying, I don't know if by these exertions, I have settled a law or unsettled it. But I hope maybe a mind better than mine may one day settle it. I hope any mind might settle it. I can't think of too many minds better than yours. It's been such a privilege. Hadley Arcus, thank you.

And the book is Mere Natural Law, Originalism, and the Anchoring Truths of the Constitution. I hope this conversation will find many viewers who will be provoked and settled and unsettled. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Folks, you're listening to a special edition of the show.

These are the audio versions of amazing conversations I had. Socrates in the studio. These have not aired yet. The videos are not out yet. We want to encourage you to go to Socrates in the cityplus.com. Socrates in the city plus.com. Sign up. This goes live January 4th.

You can see the videos. It's amazing. I also want to encourage you. If you haven't yet, go to metaxis talk.com and give to CSI, one of the greatest things you could conceivably do around the Christmas season, an amazing gift for anyone you can think of. Go to metaxis talk.com. Click on the CSI banner.

Be generous. It's a beautiful thing. Metaxus talk.com. And don't forget Socrates in the city plus.com. And now here's my conversation from Socrates in the studio, just for you. Folks, right now in other parts of the world, people's lives are being threatened simply for believing in Jesus. People have been enslaved for their faith.

So listeners to this show know that I'm passionate about the work of Christian Solidarity International because they protect and free those who are being persecuted and enslaved for their Christian faith. I've got to thank you for your life-changing generosity for years now. If you've given a CSI through this program, you have played a role in freeing literally thousands of captives. So as we near the end of this year, can I ask you to give once again your gift of just $250 will free a woman. woman in Sudan who has been enslaved for years. You can buy a believer's freedom and provide her with food and other supplies necessary to start her new life. Just $250. Maybe you can give more and free more people. Call 888-2533522, 888-253-3522, or go to metaxistalk.com. Please do it metaxis

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and Solidarity International to actually free slaves in Sudan. Todd Chapman is with us to talk about. And Todd, you were saying off the air about the timing with Israel right now. Yeah, I just think I was thinking about this this morning as I was watching the news. I think all of our eyes have been fixed these recent days on the war that's happening between Israel and Hamas. but also these, you know, what was going to happen with all of these hostages with these captives. And thankfully, in the past few days, we've seen some of them begin to be freed. And I couldn't help Eric, but think that, you know what, there are freedoms of people being that have been slaved for decades now happening every year. And I'm not minimizing.

I'm celebrating actually what's happening in Hamas right now. But by the very token that we're rejoicing that these women and these captives have been set free, we also want to remind you that you have an opportunity to participate in freeing people that have been captive for 20, 30 years now in North Sudan. And that's what CSI does every year. So I just think the timing of this is really great. But it was not lost on me that while, you know, the Hamas situation is getting all of this newsplay, tens of thousands of slaves are freed nearly every year by Christians in another

part of the world. And the freedom on both sides is just equally as beautiful. but I just thought that was a good reminder that what we're doing here is absolutely significant. And even though it may not be played out of the mainstream media, God sees what his children are doing. And God rejoices and he fuels us and funds us to do this work. And so just wanted to offer that as kind of a different camera angle on what we're inviting our listeners to do today. That's a good way of putting it. And I have to say, you know, the older you get, the more you realize the mainstream media is a joke.

Like they cover what they cover and there's just an infinity of stuff that they don't cover. They don't cover this. This could be in the news every single day. There are people enslaved for years and years and years. Today in 2023, there are slaves today. And you think the whole world would be talking about what can we do to get them out. This is insane. We can't let this happen in this day and age.

Is there anything we can do about it? Not a peep. Obviously on this program, we talk about it. we know about it. And when you know about these things, I hope you talk about them. But I want to encourage my audience. Tell your friends about this.

People are thinking, you know what, what do I give for Christmas? What do I do? Let me tell you, folks, when you realize that $250 can free a human being from slavery in Sudan, this is a reality.

They're living this right now while we're talking on this program, while you're going about your life, they're living in slavery. slavery. Hard for us to believe, but it's true. And we're here to tell you that you can do something about it. So I want to remind you, if you go to metaxis talk.com, you can give, there's a banner right at the top of the page, the CSI banner, Christian Solidarity International, right at the top of the page, and you can give, or you can call 888-253-3522. And I want to encourage you, folks,

You know, speaking about the mainstream media, we are the media. You can take this clip, this, we put this stuff on Rumble. We will put this on social media. You can, you can send this to your friends. You can tell your friends about this program. Send these programs to your friends. Tell them, this is a great Christmas gift. Or just send them the link to MetaxusTalk.com and say, have you seen this for $250?

this would be really meaningful for your church to get involved in. There are human beings waiting for us to do something about it, or they're waiting for God to move on the hearts of those who profess faith in him to do something about this. You can be that person. I would dare say it's God's will that we be those people. So you can call 888-253-3522 or just go to metaxistococ.com. Metaxistocococ.com you'll see the information right. There, God bless you as you give.