The Eric Metaxas Show - Hugh Ross

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

Hugh Ross from Reasons.org goes deep into both inner and outer space with amazing discoveries about human life and the universe with his new book, "Designed to the Core."

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Taxis show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Wow. It's back. We're back. Albin, we're back. Monday. It's Monday. Folks, all right, how do we try to communicate all of this stuff in a couple of seconds? I don't know.

Number one, my guest for both hours today, one of the smartest men on planet Earth, which, you know, that kind of narrows it down, right? Yeah. Just you, me and one other person. Hugh Ross. Hugh Ross is a brainy, super genius astrophysicist that started me on my path in science apologetics and whatever. We have him in both hours. He has a new book out. He is just one of the best, the best.

He's an amazing human being. So in both hours today, we've got Hugh Ross. That's number one. Prepare to flip your wig. Number two, tomorrow, I think in both hours, Katie Hopkins. Oh. The darling, Katie Hopkins. We love her, and I cannot wait to have her tomorrow.

We also looking forward to Mario Marillo. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Zmirak is back from Paris. Oh, yeah. I just was on the phone with him in Cleveland. I was in Cleveland. I should tell you what happened to me this weekend.

So we got Samirak. We have Larry Taunton coming up. We have a Robert Davy who directed the film My Son Hunter. Yes, and he was a James Bond villain, too. So we have him. He's a big deal, Hollywood guy. Okay, but I got to tell you, just while I was getting my makeup put on. By the way, folks, if you're listening on radio, why?

Because this is on video, and you could be watching this. Hey, here's another announcement. A friend of mine literally last night. night at dinner said, how do I listen to your program? This is a close friend. Okay. His name rhymes with Mono Camporus. And I said, okay, on your phone, go to the app store. Because many of my friends don't know this. Some of my dearest friends, I said, on your phone, go to the app store. Put in Eric Metaxis show. We have an app. We have an app. We have an app. The Eric Metax's show.

It comes up on your phone. You click on it. And it plays this show. The two hours that we do, every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, 10 radio hours. It just plays it in a loop for 24 hours. And then it goes to the next day and the next day.

So you can listen to this show anytime you want. If you don't have a radio, I was just in Cleveland and in Columbus, Ohio, where people say, I wake up, I listen to your program at 4 a.m. This wonderful man said, I have my alarm said. I listen to your show at 4 a.m. And I'm in awe of several things.

Number one, that the jugheads at the radio station in Columbus, no, sorry, in Cleveland, put my show on at 4 a.m. Thank you very much, Cleveland. That's number one. That's the Salem station in Cleveland. Kids with a paper route are listening in, right? The cows are listening. The chickens are still sleeping at 4 a.m.

But that's in Cleveland, and he says, says I set my alarm at 4 a.m. because I love the show so much. And so I'm in awe, A, that they put on the show at 4 a.m., which is pathetic. It's basically a slap in one's face. I'm not mentioning anyone in particular, but perhaps my face. But then I'm in awe the fact that this guy sets his alarm to listen at 4 a.m. And I try to tell this guy and all these other people, listen, you can listen to me any time you want. First of all, if you go to the Salem News Channel, Salem news channel.com Salem News Channel.com.

Every night at 8 p.m. We are on. The program is on at 8 p.m. Salem Newschannel.com. Or the best thing of all, if you sign up for our newsletter, Eric Mataxis.com, we send this stuff to you.

Anyway, there's a million ways to listen to the program. Even if you just go to Metaxistalk.org. You can listen live anytime. Metaxistalk.com. And if you go to Eric Mataxis.com, and if you don't even sign up the newsletter to get the videos.

You can listen to the radio. So there's a million ways to listen to the program. I had to say that. Yes. But I also wanted to say a few other things, a few other things, before we get to our superbrainiac genius friend, Hugh Ross. I want to say this weekend,

people say, how was your weekend? And I said, what weekend? Because it's such a confusion. I was in Williamsburg, Virginia. Suzanne and I went to Colonial Williamsburg. It was a joy, and I spoke at a pregnancy center in Newport News. Virginia, 740 people on just an amazing, glorious event. We made new friends. Really a joy, I have to say, to make new friends and to get to know the people that are really living

out their faith in different parts of the country and just a joy to be there. But then the next day early, I had to fly to Columbus, Ohio, because Salem was doing these news talker events. So I was in Columbus, Ohio. But, Albin, I think I was telling you this. So I land in Columbus, Ohio. I got to fly through Charlotte, then I go to Columbus. I get to Columbus. The event doesn't start until like 6 p.m. or whatever it was.

And I get there, like, around three. And I'm dumped off at this church. The church was bigger than most football stadiums. I've never seen anything. It was just insane. It took me like 20 minutes to find a human being in the chair. Like, it was just, you know, the middle of the day. Maybe the rapt.

hit. I was wondering. Yeah. And so anyway, I get there and I'm thinking it's the middle of the day. Now what am I going to do? Like look at my computer for three hours like in a hallway before, you know, because I, oh, why wouldn't I go to a hotel? That's because at the end of the night, we were all getting on a private plane. Folks, I hope you don't think this is normal for me. This is nuts. We're getting on a private plane to be flown 36 minutes to Cleveland where we were doing the next event on Saturday night in Cleveland, right? So I had nothing to do, but I got a crazy idea. And I asked the woman, the receptionist, I said, is there by any chance a shower in this vast building? And she's, oh yeah, she took me to the senior pastor's office. Because you can use this. So I said, fantastic. I'm going to go for a run. So I went for a run for a long run along what's called the Hoover reservoir in Genoa, Ohio, which is near Columbus, Ohio. And I just went for the most beautiful, it was just heavenly. And then I took my shower, and then we had our event.

It was just a whole thing, it was like one of these surreal traveling experiences. Then I went to Cleveland, and then yesterday I got home. Yeah. But it's great. When people say, how was your weekend? It started last Wednesday, and I have no idea what you're talking about. So it's kind of a weird. Busman's holiday, I think they might call about it.

Yeah. I also want to announce something right now. We only have five days left in this campaign for the Alliance Defending Freedom. Folks, I've got to tell you, I don't know why, but we are really struggling to raise funds for the Alliance Defending Freedom. If you have not given, I just want to be blunt. They're on the front lines of everything. These are profound heroes in America defending. For free, people whose religious liberties are being attacked.

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It's women not having privacy rights in locker rooms and women's showing. And it's about the millions of parents and the kids who are in the public schools that are now being taught that there aren't any such thing as boys or girls. Being equal doesn't mean being identical. Okay. Kristen Wagner, I know her. She is one of the greatest lawyers in America, okay? They need your help. There are people who can give $20, $50, $100. There are people who can give $10,000.

If there's anybody out there that can do that, I want to have dinner with you. I want to spend the evening with you to thank you in person. We really, really, really need your help. This is absolutely vital, folks. I don't know what to tell you, except that this is vital. And so we're just begging you right now. Dial 855-385-0596, 855-385-385-085-0-96. Or go to metaxistococococ.com.

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You will understand that I ripped off a lot of that stuff from my next guest. My next guest is the man, who, without realizing it, in 1991, was my introduction to what we might call science apologetics, to the idea of the fine-tune, universe. I was a new believer, and I don't know how I found it, but I found Dr. Hugh Ross's

books, or how I found them. And since then, I've been following his work and have incorporated a lot of what he writes into my own books in case you don't know who Hugh Ross is. Let me simply say officially he's founder and president of reasons to believe an organization dedicated to demonstrating the compatibility of science and the Christian faith. He's an astrophysicist, he's a pastor, and he is my guest right now. Dr. Hugh Ross, welcome. Oh, thank you for inviting me, Eric. Well, it's always fun for me to talk to you. It's just a joy to talk to you. You really were my introduction to the whole world of the fine-tuned universe and all this stuff. You got me started.

on this stuff. And you have written so many books on these subjects. The one we're going to talk about today, your new book is called Designed to the Core. So you talk about fine-tuning on another level. I know this is always hard for people to grasp and I always feel like I want to give context. You know, folks, when we're talking about fine-tuning, what we're talking about, well, let me ask you, since you introduced me to the concept of fine-tuning, Dr. Hugh Ross, explain to my, audience, when we talk about the fine-tuning argument, what are we talking about? Well, it is the oldest scientific argument for the existence of God. It goes all the way back to the early church fathers, and it refers to the fact that we live in a universe and on

earth where we see hundreds of features that must be exquisitely fine-tuned to make possible our existence. Well, there are so many levels of fine-tuning. It almost becomes funny when you think about how amazing God is. It's almost, when I talk about my book is atheism dead, and I get into some of this stuff, at some point I usually say, if you're honest and you really begin to understand what we mean by how much fine-tuning there is,

it almost becomes frightening. You start thinking, God is so much bigger, it's almost too much to take in what he has done in creating the universe. I mean, just to start there, most of us don't think about that, what it takes to create the universe out of nothing. It's numbing to consider it.

And then you get into the idea that, oh, and that's just the beginning, literally and figuratively, and it goes on and on and on and on, to where God's sovereignty and his hand and his planning are in everything. And I just don't know if you don't seem to kind of like to be the kind of person

whoever becomes overwhelmed, but I have found myself becoming overwhelmed by it. I mean, the fine-tuning evidence not only establishes that the God of the Bible must exist, it reveals to us just how big that God is. You can't come away from investigating the fine-tuning argument with recognizing just how infinitely powerful, loving, and caring the one that created the universe must be. I mean, it's kind of funny to me, like Zeus couldn't design a pocket watch. Who are we kidding, right? You know, Ganesh, who these other, you know, pseudo-gods? We're talking about a god that is just, I mean, when we think about atomic structure, when we think about the galaxies, it is just, it is almost, as I say, overwhelming. And so at some point, we have to just decide, okay, what part of fine-tuning are we going to discuss? So in this, book designed to the core, because you've written many books on fine-tuning, what specifically, what aspect of fine-tuning by God do you discuss in the new book designed to the core?

Follow my office, Eric. I've got over 50 books on the fine-tuning of the universe. But what compelled me to write this book designed to the core is that we astronomers see fine-tuning on all cosmic-sized scales, not just at the level of the universe as a whole. We, we We see it in the cosmic web. We see it in the super galaxy cluster. We see it in our galaxy cluster, our local group of galaxies. Our galaxy, the local arm within our galaxy, the local bubble on that local arm, the local fluff, all the way down to our planetary system.

And we're recognizing at each level we're looking at a system that's unique. There's only one super galaxy cluster in the universe that has a characteristics that permits the existence of the equivalent of human beings. and that's shown at all different cosmic size level. So it's not just at the level of the universe that we see an overwhelming case that has been supernaturally fine-tuned to a possible existence. It's pervasive at all cosmic size scales. When you said super galaxy cluster, talk about that for a minute

because I'm not familiar with that concept or if I was once familiar with it, I have forgotten. Well, probably not the latter because only recently have astronomers even be able to define what a super galaxy cluster is. It's a cluster of clusters of galaxies, but only in the last few years of astronomers be able to determine the boundaries of these super galaxy clusters. And today we know of over 10,000 of these super galaxy clusters in the universe, but we live in what's called the Lanakaya super galaxy cluster. and it's unlike any other super galaxy clusters. What's typical of super galaxy clusters is the clusters of galaxies are jammed tightly together in a spherical or an ellipsoidal configuration. But we live in a super galaxy cluster where the galaxy clusters and galaxy groups

are strung out along these long filaments and subfilaments. And our local group of galaxies is at the nexus of three, sub-filaments. If we weren't at the nexus of three sub-filaments of a super-galaxy cluster where the galaxies groupings are strung along these long filaments and sub-filaments, there'd be no possibility for life. So we live in the one and only super galaxy cluster that has a characteristics that permits our existence. Okay, so it's not just a rare kind of super galaxy cluster. You're saying it's literally the only one of which we know. of which we, right. We don't know of all of them, but of all those that we know, it stands out as unique.

Okay, and so as you are saying, this is a very recent development discovering this. This is a new example. I keep talking about this, that the more science learns, folks, think of this. The more science learns, the more the evidence for God piles up. It has already piled up almost infinitely, but it continues. Every time you turn around, there's more. And so what you've just said, Dr. Hugh Ross and what you talk about in the book Design to the Core, is brand-new information, another almost preposterous level of fine-tuning. That's right. This is my fifth book on fine-tuning, and it focuses on what astronomers and physicists have discovered in just the last three years. But what you see, we have an exponentially stronger case for the fine-tune argument for the God of the Bible today than we had three years ago. I mean, it really is a mind-blower.

Every chapter kind of just blows your way and saying, wow, the biblical principle you see in Job and Psalms, the more we learn about nature, the more evidence will uncover for the supernatural handiwork of God. Well, I have to say, you know, in my book is atheism dead, I come to the conclusion that it's game over. If you want to play the game and say, well, there's evidence, some evidence for God, some evidence of God.

The evidence that has piled up over the latter decades, really, since I have started reading your books, it's become kind of like evidence piling up for, is the earth flat or is it spheroid? We think the evidence is spheroid. I mean, if you had a conversation with somebody, they'd laugh at you. They'd be like, yeah, that's been decided. We've known that, you know, for 25 centuries, roughly, that the earth is a sphere. Is there anybody? that doesn't believe there's enough evidence for that anymore. There's always going to be some crazy people. But that's how I feel about the evidence for God,

that it's piled up so dramatically that the challenge to me is getting people to see it, because most people will just look away, they can't bear it. But when people dare to look at it, it's kind of heart-stopping. Well, I'm trying to reach my fellow astronomers or not yet believers in the sense that they tend to be focused on a narrow sub-discipline of astronomy. And they say, well, we see all as evidence for design in my sub-discipline, but they haven't taken the time to look at the other sub-disciplines. And I'm basically making the case no matter where you look in astronomy, no matter what size scale, no matter what wavelength you choose to observe at, you're going to find

an overwhelming case that has been fine-tuned to make possible our existence, and not just our existence, but our redemption. I mean, what have been doing this? Actually, let's get, let's get to that when we come back, because that's a whole other thing, folks. This is next level madness. It's amazing. The book is designed to the core. Brand new book by Dr. Hugh Ross with reasons to believe. We'll be right back. Tell me, Eric, why is relief factor so successful at lowering or eliminating pain? I'm often asked that question. The owners of Relief Factor tell me they believe our bodies were designed to heal. That's right, designed to heal. And I agree with them. So the doctors who formulated

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Fortunately, there are cameras and microphones that you get to listen in because I am overjoyed to be speaking with my guest, Dr. Hugh Ross, he's the head of reasons to believe ministries, has written many, many books on how science and faith are not just compatible, but by how science increasingly points to the clear, I should say, points to the idea that there is a God who designed the universe, and it's become overwhelming the evidence from science. Before we get to the redemption, part that you were just mentioning, Dr. Ross. Could you explain two of the most awe-inspiring fine-tuning details?

Because a lot of times when I'm talking about this, I'm not a scientist, but people want examples. What do you mean by fine-tuning? Give me an example. And if you're talking about, you know, the four fundamental laws of physics, that's a little tough for people. They don't normally think in terms of the four fundamental laws. But what is something in terms of fine-tuning that maybe people can get their heads?

around. Well, I'll share one with you that I included just before the book went to press. It was a paper published in the scientific literature where they said, when we look at the early sun, it's pouring out particle radiation, gamma ray and x-ray and flaring activity about 100,000 times greater than we see today. And normally this would have sputtered away all of Earth's water and all of Earth's atmosphere and our planet would have been permanently sterile. But what happened instead is our solar system started off with five rocky planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, and the planet Thea. But already in the solar system's history, Thea and the Proto Earth collided with one another, made the Earth bigger and created a debris

cloud around this Earth that Coalesden made the moon. I thought the planet that crashed into Thea was, like in other words, I thought that we would consider Thia the Proto Earth and that the large planet that crashed into it was not Thia. But you're saying that in any event, just so we're tracking, what you're saying is that at some point there was a planet before Earth that was unlike Earth, but that another planet maybe around the size of Mars, crashed into it perfectly and created a larger planet. And we've only known about this fairly recently, or you're talking about the sun issues, the more recent. Well, we've known about the collision between Thea and the Earth for, gee, about almost 20 years.

Okay. What we now have discovered, however, is that that collision event caused by, you know, both the Earth and the Moon to have a hot liquid iron core. And at that time, the Moon was much closer to the Earth than it is today. Close enough that the gravity that the Moon exerted on the Earth's near side was quite a bit stronger than the gravity it exerted on the far side. And that caused the liquid iron in Earth's core to circulate. And when you circulate liquid iron, you generate a magnetic field.

And the same thing happened on the moon. The Earth's gravity caused the liquid iron in Moon's core to circulate. And that meant that both bodies had a magnetic field, and because of how close they were together, the two magnetic fields coupled. So you had a coupled magnetosphere, a very strong coupled magnetosphere, strong enough that have prevented the particle radiation and the flaring activity of the sun from sputtering away all of Earth's water and all of Earth's atmosphere. Now, the scientists who wrote this paper concluded their paper saying,

we have found another habitability requirement. A really modest statement, this is the most spectacular planetary habitability criterion that's ever been discovered. The only way you're going to have life on a planet is if two rocky planets collide with one another in such a way that you get a big rocky planet, a gigantic moon orbiting that planet, where the cores of both bodies are hot enough to get a liquid iron core and where the bodies are close enough together to circulate that liquid iron. If any one of those criteria are not met, there's no possibility for life ever existing on that planet. So you are talking about an

that took place roughly when? It took place when the solar system was about 0.1% of its present age. So very early in the solar system's history. And you're referring to these moon formation understandings that people have. I remember back in 2014, Nature published a set of six papers where they said, There's too much fine-tuning to explain the origin of the moon. We need to redo all the models. And they redid all the models, and they came up with even more fine-tuning when they had in the original models.

And one of the modelers, Tim Elliott, commented in nature, this is causing all of us philosophical disquiet. But this new paper is causing exponentially greater philosophical disquiet. There's no naturalistic way you can explain how it is that Earth today is able to have prolific life upon its surface. We have to be clear, folks, in case you're missing any of this, it doesn't make sense that there's life on Earth. It makes no sense. Logically speaking, it shouldn't have happened. In order for it to happen, you need a set of parameters that are just so crazy that there's no chance. that it could possibly happen.

There's no chance, and yet it did. And that's what science says. And so then you think, well, that's interesting. It looks like maybe there was some kind of God involved, but that's a repulsive idea. Now what do we do? When we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Hugh Ross what his fellow scientists say about the fine-tuning

that they have witnessed. We'll be right back. With the overturn of Roe v. Wade, lots of companies are coming out saying they'll pay for employee abortion travel and expenses. Most of you've heard about some of these companies. you've decided to stop shopping or doing business there, but did you know that you most likely own stock in those companies

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They're known to sell quickly. So order now with promo code Eric at mypillow.com. promo code Eric at my pillow.com. Hey there, folks. Welcome back. I'm talking to Hugh Ross. The new book is designed to the core. And you can find his organization reasons to believe.

at reasons.org. What could be simpler, reasons.org. Well, Dr. Ross, we're getting kind of in the weeds and I don't want to lose people. I want to get back into the weeds. But before we get back into the weeds,

what do your fellow scientists say? Because you are talking about peer-reviewed papers appearing in the premier journal of academic science, nature. What do they say when more and more and more and more and more and more and more evidence of fine-tuning comes up. I know that for many of them, it's somehow repulsive.

It doesn't really square with what they think things should be like. Well, they think things should be naturalistically explained, and all the evidence is telling us that's not the way it is. The example I just gave you is one of a thousand different examples I could talk about. And so there really is an overwhelming case. And I remember I've been speaking on this fine tuning to public audiences since the 1970s. And I remember the 1980s saying, eventually the evidence will be so overwhelming and so pervasive, non-theists will have nowhere else to go but to hypothesize there's an infinite number of universes where they're all different from one another.

And we just happen to live in the one universe by a sheer check. Wait a minute. Are you telling me that you, hypothesized the Looney multiverse idea back then? Back then, 20 years before any atheists even came up with the idea.

That's hilarious. It was first promoted. But what has happened recently is one of those fellow agnostic atheist astronomers, Leonard Suskin, said, we've got to stop using the multiverse. It's a bad argument.

It explains everything. An argument that explains everything and explains nothing. Now, what I've done in this book is basically give you an analogy. If there's an infinite number of universes that are all different from one another, you're going to have an infinite number of planets just like planet Earth. And those infinite number of planet Earth, you've got to have an infinite variety of birch tree species. And birch trees peel white pieces of bark.

Well, if you've got an infinite number of universes, you're going to have a birch tree species that peels thin white pieces of bark that are perfectly rectangular that measure eight and a half by 11 inches that fall on soil with random markings in them that imprint on those pieces of bark, every photograph, every equation, every diagram, every paragraph, and every scientific research paper it's ever been written, which means you'd be concluding those millions of scientific research papers didn't come from the mind of scientists, the multiverse did it. That is a level of sarcasm that we have never encountered even on this program.

That is very funny. It really is just insane and dramatic. But you're telling me that folks like Leonard Susskind are, they are getting serious. In other words, because to me, when people talk about the multiverse theory, I think they're just playing games. They just don't like the idea of the fine-tuning that it's pointing so obviously to God. It's repulsive to them. So they come up with this crazy theory. But you're saying that there are some who are not believers, as we are, who do say,

that the multiverse theory is at least inadequate? Yes, yes, that's exactly what's happening. And what I've been doing with my peers recently is saying, you know, when you look at the Bible, it says that God begins his works of redemption before he creates anything at all, which implies that everything God creates is for the purpose of making possible

the redemption of billions of humans from their sin and evil. And so I tell them, look, I know you're not, a believer like I am, but if you will do your scientific research from a biblical redemptive perspective, it will make you a more successful scientists. You'll be more successful in making scientific discoveries. Put my belief to the tests and see whether or not I'm right or wrong. And of course, my eventual goal is they become more successful, they'll realize, maybe I need to seriously consider the claims that are written in the pages of scripture. you mean by the redemptive peace? I'm not getting that. Well, you've got passages in the Bible that say

things like, you know, the grace of God that we now experience was put into effect before the beginning at time. The hope we share in Jesus Christ was given to us before the beginning and time, which implies that God began his works of redemption before the universe even existed. But how would a scientist track with that? I mean, I understand that. But how, but how, but how? I mean, it's very theological, but when you say to a scientist that he ought to take that into account, how could he take that into account? Well, you could do research in astronomy and physics, for example, you say, well, if this feature I'm seeing in the universe, how can I explain this feature? And I'm basically saying the best explanation will be what do you need in order to make possible the redemption of billions of human beings in a short period of time on one person? planet. And so in that sense, I'm arguing that this fine-tuning argument has predictive power,

is that you can use this fine-tuning argument in a redentive context to discover more fine-tuning. And this means that you're going to be able to be more successful in making scientific discoveries about the structure of the universe, our galaxy, our solar system, etc. I mean, the very fact that in this book, you know, it's, what, 280 pages long, and it's all based on discoveries of the last three years. And so I basically share with my scientific peers. I mean, just read the scientific literature. Every day that goes by, we see a scientific discovery that's best explained in a biblical redemptive perspective. So why not use this as a guide in your ongoing research and see if indeed you'll be more efficient in making discoveries about the realm of nature?

I take your point about fine-tuning generally, but I don't know why you need to leap to the redemptive piece. In other words, it's one thing to say, hey, assume that there's a God and he wanted to create a planet where human beings could live. It would seem to me that that would have enough predictive power and that, you know, when you're looking for fine-tuning, everything, you know, comes together to create us. I get that and that accounts for so much. So the next piece of it where you talk about redemption and so on and so forth, I want to get to that when we come back because again, folks, there's so many layers here. It's amazing.

There's so much you can read. Go to reasons.org. If you have a bright high schooler, send him or her to reasons.org. There is so much there. It's astonishing. and it's very, very exciting. We'll be right back. Much fun together.

Hey, get rhythm. When you get the blues, come on, get rhythm. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Dr. Hugh Ross with Reasons.org is the website. So, Dr. Ross, talk to us about that redemptive piece. I think this is in some ways hard to grasp, but you're making the case that, you know, not only is the universe fine-tuned for life and for us, but you go way beyond that. So talk about the way beyond, because I just want to see if we can track with that.

Well, the anthropic principle, the idea when we observe the universe, we see it's been fine-tuned, designed to make our existence possible. This was so disturbing to my peers who weren't believers that they basically evolved the anthropic principle into the prebiotic principle. What do we need to explain how we get a universe with amino acids, nuclear bases, and sugars? And there we have a much lower level of fine-tune evidence

because we're just talking about the building blocks of light molecules. And the point I'm making in my books is, well, we go from the pre-biotic principle to what you need to have bacteria existing universe, we see that the fine-tuned case rises exponentially. Then if we go from bacteria to plants and animals, we see another exponential increase and how fine-tuned different features of the universe must be.

And then if we go to the equivalent of human beings, it's exponentially greater than the fine-tuning you need for plants and animals, but the greatest exponentiation is what kind of fine-tune you need in order for billions of humans or the equivalent to be redeemed from their sin and evil. So in that sense, I'm making the point that where you really see the evidence for fine-tuned designs is when you put it in the context of how the universe must be designed and all of its subcomponents and all of the events in the history of the universe and its subcomponents in order to make possible billions of human beings with the adequate technology.

necessary that the good news of salvation through the crater of the universe can be communicated to all of them in such a way that billions of them can be redeemed from their sin and evil. That's the argument. I want to scroll back to the prebiotic fine-tuning level. I just did a Socrates in the city event with Dr. James Tour, with whom I assume you're familiar. We are back a long ways. Well, he's, of course, a nanoscientist. and he has really gotten to be in his bonnet over the issue of abiogenesis,

and it's so obvious that there's no way that, you know, these various things that needed to come together to form the first life on Earth could on any level ever have conceivably come together of their own accord. So when you talk about what is the fine-tuning necessary, for those things to exist, for proteins to exist and carbohydrates and sugars and all these different things. So you're saying that that's one level of fine-tuning. But I guess I don't know, we don't know how it is that proteins would assemble themselves the way the naturalistic processes would say that they must. So I'm not sure how fine-tuning comes into that.

To me, it just seems obvious that it didn't happen by itself. God did it somehow, but what happened? What do we think happened? You can make a case for the God of the Bible, just simply saying, what kind of fine-tuning do we need to get amino acids, to get nuclear bases, and to get sugars? You can make a case. I'm just saying you can make a far stronger case if you say,

well, what do we really need to actually get a living bacterium? It's orders of magnitude greater than what you know. need to get the sugars, nuclear bases, and amino acids. And if you up that, okay, what do we need to actually have megafauna, where you've got not just microbes, but plants and animals. Okay, forgive me. We're going to a break. Folks, we'll be back with Dr. Hugh Ross, the new book designed to the core.