The Eric Metaxas Show - Jack Barsky

Episode Date: July 15, 2020

Former KGB agent Jack Barsky appears in the Bunker to provide inside information on how Marxist thought works its way into a government and eventually destroys a country from within.

Hi, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. I just found out I'm supposed to be someplace else right now. So my sincere apologies, but I simply won't be able to introduce today's host, Mr. Eric Mataxis. Folks, welcome. This is Hour 2, what would I call Hour 2? Of course, you may be listening to it as the first hour today. That is your prerogative. But I just want to say that technically it's Hour 2. But I'm continuing my conversation from the previous hour with our friend Arthur Brooks, who is a professor at Harvard. It's really the best job he could get. Arthur, welcome. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It's great to be with you. A lot of people know you from the American Enterprise Institute, of course. You were there. I now realize 11 years. My goodness. We originally booked you because you're in a film called Fishing with Dynamite, which talks about capitalism and the

moral side of capitalism. I wanted to continue that conversation with you because I guess I want to understand, let me put it this way. It seems to me what you said earlier is correct, that there was naivete, there was hope when we decided to give China most favored nation status. And we saw eventually and certainly recently that it wasn't working and that simply by introducing the free market to some place does not mean that those people will, you know, suddenly start thinking the way that we do. When it was brought to my attention recently that Nike uses slave labor, I really gasped, and I thought to myself, I don't know how I missed that. And then I don't know how it's possible that this is not talked about. In other words, if that is true or even

half true, it seems that people should be up in arms over it. If the NBA is looking the other way so they can make a lot of money and get into that market at the expense of human lives and the freedom of those lives. We should be talking about this more. Yeah, absolutely. We should always be talking about human rights abuses. You know, the problem that we have, we have this misbegotten whole argument in America about income inequality. The problem is not income inequality. And again, you know, I write about this stuff. It turns that income inequality at the world level has been going down every year for 35 years. The problem is that we have a dignity inequality problem where certain people are simply not treated with radically equal human dignity.

I mean, this is what lies behind a lot of the social unrest that we see today is that we don't have a concept of equal human dignity that we share. This is what lies behind the reason that we could that we could buy stuff from companies that are exploiting prison labor in China, because somehow in our hearts, we're not truly convinced of what, you know, that if you're a Christian, the gospel of Jesus Christ, who talks about this radical equality, that we are all made in God's image, and that means we all have equal human dignity, we're all equally worthy respect, and we have an obligation to live like that, to buy like that, to talk like that, to think like that, to pray like that.

And if we don't, I mean, I'm telling you, if you behave as a consumer in a way that does not betray your values, that's not economically living the gospel if you're a Christian. And if you're not a Christian, I bet you have many of the same values as well and should be held to the same standard. I guess, you know, I would go maybe further even in thinking that the United States ought to have laws that our, that companies that are from American markets or that are based here would be unable to ally themselves with governments that are using slave labor, or maybe at the very least would not themselves be using slave labor. I was fascinated that a company as large and well-known as Nike could even be doing this.

It just struck me as impossible, and then I found that somehow it is possible. And I'm sure that, you know, Apple has these issues. I mean, I don't know the details. I'd only heard recently about 19. Yeah, I don't know the details either, but I do know that people will respond to these incentives, these regulatory incentives. And when they do, everybody benefits, you know,

the one thing that's worth keeping in mind is that, you know, it's easy for us to say, well, everything that's happened in China is really terrible because of the human rights abuses, because of the theft of intellectual property, because of the, you know, just the threats to American sovereignty that China brings.

these days, which is unambiguously true. But it's also true, the 600 million Chinese have been pulled out of starvation level poverty since you and I were kids, Eric. I mean, since 19, actually since 1982, since the opening of China with Deng Xiaoping in his southern tour, 600 million Chinese have been pulled out of poverty. What did that? The answer was American-style capitalism. Now, that doesn't mean that the bad stuff that's going on with the exploitation of slave labor and that intellectual property theft and the totalitarianism and the mind control and the abridgments of religious freedom, that that has anything to do with it. But the introduction of market economies, that's been really good. So what are we trying to do? We're trying to

keep the good and get rid of the bad. And we need more, we need better policy in the United States. We need more imagination in the United States. We need, we don't need to have this manichean view that either we have to be all sort of libertarian capitalism or all getting rid of the entire relationship. Both of those ideas is actually wrong and bad for the Chinese, and ultimately it will be bad even for the leaders of China if they have this unabridged totalitarianism we currently see. Well, I hope so. I don't know enough to really speak about it much, but it seems to me that this president has been aware of what's happening with China on a number of levels in a way that no previous president, or at least in the last, you know, since Clinton has been,

and that they've really been derelict in their duties. And so I'm grateful for his willingness, at least to address some of these issues. Yeah, I wish that he, I don't like a lot of the tariffs that he's putting in place. I think that those are mistaken policies. And part of the reason is because I think that there is a view, a vision in large parts of this administration that somehow if we had less trade with China, that America would be better off, and somehow the Chinese are paying those tariffs as taxes, this really is hurting American consumers a lot. And I think we can get a lot of what we want with regulation that actually takes human rights into account and that takes intellectual property into account while the same time not imposing

the tariffs as we can, which are a very blunt policy. Now, again, people disagree on this, But that's just my view because I want to protect the capitalism in China that's actually pulling people out of poverty and creating opportunities for people to get good quality goods and services in the United States, especially poorer people in the United States. Well, it's interesting because it is so complicated. I think that, you know, Trump being Trump, I think that he's using the tariffs in a way to get their attention. It's like saber rattling. It's to let them know that we're serious. And I think that maybe it will give us a better ability to bargain with them over issues like human rights regulations. I guess I'm also grieved, Arthur, at the quiet in this country with regard to what is happening in Hong Kong.

It really does seem to me we're at a strange pass where we're at a strange pass where, we've forgotten what freedom is. And so when you have people in places like Hong Kong waving American flags, and then you have people in America burning American flags, it's just a really odd moment. And I think maybe the good side is it can be a clarifying moment. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that we're actually coming into a time just because it is this tremendous

meta-social unrest and the questioning of so many fundamental values where we're going to be able to, this conversation is actually asking us to figure around what we truly believe. And when that has happened in the United States, typically, the country's done well. You know, these are these moments, these hinge moments where people are giving these apocalyptic visions of the end of the American experiment. Everybody knows that empire has only lasted 250 years, Eric, and no, no, no, I don't believe it. I believe that actually this is our great opportunity because we're an entrepreneurial nation. And that just doesn't mean our economy. It also means our culture. And entrepreneurs, as opposed to non-entrepreneurs,

when something is hard, when something is uncomfortable, when something is unpleasant, they say, aha, that's an opportunity. So everybody watching and listening to us, what is the entrepreneurial opportunity? When something bad is happening from this, don't just complain, don't just be upset and don't just yell and scream and hate your enemies. Say, this is my opportunity to open the conversation to what could be better later in my family, in my community, in my neighborhood, in my city and in my country. And that's where social progress starts. Beautiful place to end our conversation.

Arthur Brooks, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. God bless you, Eric, and all of our listeners and viewers, it's great to be with you. Hey there, folks. This is the Eric Metaxus show. We always call it the show about everything because we like to talk about everything.

One of the things I've talked about a little bit on this program is my own background. My parents came from Europe, and because of their experiences in Europe, my father during the Greek Civil War with the Communists and my mother growing up in what became East Germany under the Communists, they always taught me to hate communism and conversely to love liberty along the American model. It has always struck me that people who have experienced real communism, real socialism, a real socialism, a real totalitarianism. They appreciate America more than most Americans who tend to focus on the flaws of our country. And of course, every country has some flaws. But I thought it would be interesting today to talk to someone who I think of as a friend. We had him on this program a little bit over a year ago. His name is Jack Barski. You may remember he wrote a book called Deep Undercover. He was working

with the East German government and the Russian government as a spy against America. He has since become a dramatically different person. He is a Christian, and it is my joy to welcome him back. Jack Barski, thank you for your time. Well, thanks for having me back. It's always a pleasure. Well, your first book, you tell your story, and we've played that a number of times on this radio program,

It's so fascinating how you go from working for the KGB. There are not many people I've talked to who say I worked for the KGB at the level you did and who eventually found your way to love American freedom and almost miraculously to be able to escape the clutches of the KGB to become an American citizen and marry and have a family here and live here. But you have a unique perspective on some of the things that are going on in this country today. A lot of people are naive when it comes to socialism and to the tactics of people who maybe call themselves Antifa or something. So I just wanted to talk to you about what's going on in America now from the perspective of someone who really understands it probably better than the rest of us.

Yeah, sure. I share that perspective with a number of people, but when you narrow it down some more, I have other things that sort of coalesce within self that gives me even more of what I would call insights. But it starts out with the, you know, having lived, having grown up and embraced communism, Marxism, Leninism, and it winds up with pretty much subscribing to everything that you talk about in your wonderful book if you can keep it. Thank you for praising my book. But really, it is an amazing thing that American like me, that it wasn't until later in life that I began to see the things

that my parents had been teaching me about, I have a keen appreciation of these things. And so as I say, I really want to hear what you think of what is happening in America today. One word, insane. I don't know how that happened, but reason has been, for the most part, drained out of society. It is almost impossible to make a reasonable argument without being shouted down.

And it is incredibly difficult to convince somebody who's being as entirely ruled by feelings to convince somebody with rational arguments because they will shut their ears down, they shut their eyes down. any reasonable thinking person who has any kind of understanding of history, and that could be very recent history, and what's been going on in the world. And the evil that came out of communism, the evil that came out of collectivism,

any reasonably intelligent thinking person who understands that history must be insane to point inward to the United States as the bad character on the world scene these days. Well, again, people like you and my parents see this much more clearly, anybody who's come from another part of the world. But I think it's a normal thing for people to take what they have for granted. And many Americans think this is normal, and they think that freedom is normal,

and they think that being able to scream in a cop's face and not have him beat you to the ground with a truncheon, they think that's normal. They have never really experienced the brutality, that you and others have around the world. Let me ask you, you understand that when we live in a world as we do, it's not always about logic.

There are spiritual forces. And so when you were living in Russia and in Germany, you were surrounded by people who were not emotional maniacs. They used some form of logic. to convince themselves of the rightness of what they were doing, and of course you did too. So logic does play some role even if the conclusions are not logical. Correct. And with regard to spirituality, we had, on the communism, you have your own version of it. And that's the romantic belief in the ideals of communism. In execution, they were never implemented.

But this whole idea that comes down to, we will all get along, the state will disappear, everybody gets what they need and everybody contributes as to what they can't contribute. The only problem with that statement is, who decides what I need and who decides what you can contribute? Therefore, we need to have a party or some kind of an institution, call it the party. And the party has a central committee. and so it becomes a dictatorship. Bingo. But we didn't think that far.

You know, when you're young and even older people, you know, you just buy into this ideal and it's a pipe dream has never, ever been executed in reality. But it's an idea as old as the Garden of Eden, right? That somehow we can be as gods. I think the Tower of Babel is the most classic example that we think on our own strength, we're going to build our way into the heavens.

And of course, the heavens are infinitely distant. We cannot reach God. He can reach us, but we can never reach him in our own strength. And whenever we're talking about anything like this, whether it's the foolishness of what's happening in this country or what was happening in the Soviet bloc countries, it's a utopianist scheme that has kicked God out 100%. And that says we on our own strength will mount into the heavens.

It's a satanic scheme and it never works. But people get sucked into it because it's attractive. Let's face it. If you say we're going to have a big street party and no cops and anybody can do whatever they want, if you don't think it through, it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good. But where it breaks down, oh, by the way, it failed with regard to my own self. It failed on a personal level.

You know, I was my own God. I couldn't do wrong. I was the best of everything. Even when I came to the US, started working as a bike messenger in New York. I was the best bike messenger. I was just that good. And the first indication of the fact that my intellect really wasn't all there was to me and that it couldn't really determine fate is that when my daughter Chelsea was diagnosed,

diagnosed with a hearing deficiency which we thought initially that she was developmentally behind and so here I was faced with a reality that I had no absolutely no control over and it went on and on and on and I stumbled through a bunch of crises that I pretty much could not have overcome on my own so I'm talking about the personal aspect in society we're talking about the party you take a bunch of like let's say they pick 100 really, really good people and tell them, you know, let's have an experiment, put them in a tent or in some kind of an enclosed system, give them everything they want

and they need, and wait what happens and how this system will fall apart, simply because none of them are perfect, and you cannot build a perfect building with imperfect bricks. And so this is one of the things that took me a long time to figure out that there is a is something wrong with all of us, including self, including the newborn baby. It's the fallen nature of man. You came to this. I mean, it's fascinating to me because you tell a story that I think many people can relate to. You were taught that there's no God. And then you started having very prideful feelings. Like, hey, I'm really smart. I'm being promoted. Even when you come here as a spy to America and you get a job for cover.

As a bike messenger, you're going to be the best bike messenger. Often it is pride that leads people to think that they can get everything they want on their own. And then when something crushing happens, like you have a child that has, you have no control over that. Somehow being humbled makes us wake up a little bit. We're going to go to a break. We're going to be right back. I'm talking to Jack Barski. His book, I recommend it highly.

It's called Deep Undercover Don't Don't Go Away. President Trump has a huge announcement for his top supporters. We'll be celebrating the 2020 Republican National Convention this summer and he wants you to enter for your chance to join him at the convention. If you win, the team will cover the flight, hotel and give you VIP passes for you. yourself and a guest. All you have to do is text metaxus to 88022 today for your chance to meet President Trump at the convention. Again, that's METAXAS to 88022 to enter to win this once in lifetime opportunity via special guest paid for by Donald J. Trump for president. Folks, I'm talking to Jack Barski, a former KGB agent. I don't get to say that every day, Jack Barski,

so forgive me for repeating it. But you left that world. You came to America. You found faith in Jesus. You're a proud American citizen. Your life has changed dramatically, but you don't forget what it was like looking at things from that other perspective. And what you just referred to, I found very interesting, because you said that we know if we have a biblical worldview that humanity is flawed, that we're sinners. So this ridiculous idea that we can just have some utopian society here, we know that according to the Bible, it can't work. And then as you live your life, you begin to see like, yeah, it can't work. It doesn't work. But what I find interesting, really, is that the founders of the United States of America, they started there. They said,

people are sinners, so we need to have checks and balances. We know that people are going to want to grab power and become dictators. So we're going to have checks and balances, and we're going to use that as a way to keep these powers and these competing powers under control. And then also, if the people are going to govern themselves, they need to be people of virtue and faith. And even though we can't force faith, they had the wisdom to understand that without faith, these things can't really work. And that's what, when you're talking about socialism, when you're talking about Antifa, when you're talking about these forces of anarchy here, or the forces in the communist world, they always push God out. And the result always seems to be the same nightmare.

nightmare that's putting it mildly. We're talking about millions and millions killed. And this is not just communism. And we're talking about collectivism because, you know, the Nazi regime wasn't communist, but it was collectivist. And that's what they had in common with Mao and Stalin. And collectively, conservatively speaking,

those three wound up killing at least 30 million people, killing at least 30 million people, all three of which started with a romantic notion of where they can lead their respective nations, and people bought into it. Well-meaning people bought into it, and we have a lot of well-meaning people right now who are still buying into the very same ideology. Well, it's horrible that it's happening here in the United States, but it kind of makes sense that when a country like America forgets the basics and begins to drift foolishly, we also take our eye off the ball with regard to foreign countries like China. We forget that in that country, they have actual slave labor. Here we are talking about slavery, you know, 200 years ago in America. We're still talking about that. And of course, we should never forget it. But the point is that there's actual slave labor today in China because the communist view of the human being is totally different than the Christian view of the human being. They believe that they can use them like products, like animals, like wheat or like a vegetable that just has no value except what they can get out of it. And I'm amazed that the ignorance that we have in America today extends to the fact that we say, I'm going to buy Nike products, even though I,

I read that they're using the slave labor of we eager Muslims who are in concentration camps. I'm going to look the other way. Imagine if somebody said, I'm going to look the other way, and I know that this product is made by black slaves in the South. You'd say, how could you do something? You have no morality that you'll buy something from slave labor. But that's kind of where we are, Jack. Yes. But you see, China is far, far away.

but what I'm thinking here is the fault lies within ourselves, and that's the unmitigated greed that comes out of this capitalist system that is not mitigated by morality and by faith. If you took that into consideration, if you have a belief in God, then you know all men, women are created in his image. Therefore, the worker that gets beaten when they don't perform in China is worth just as much as you and me. Therefore, we should not take our business there. Therefore, we should not buy their stuff. And so when Donald Trump, during the 2016 campaign,

said China many times, he was right on the money. Nobody up to that point was that vociferous talking about the Chinese problem. Now we'll finally get into a point that we are accepting it, but are we doing something about it? How many companies have moved out? Well, I want to remind you to look at the camera again. When you say that, Jack, I got to tell you, it infuriates me, the corporate greed in America. You have people who are making a lot of money and they genuinely don't seem to care. The NBA and Nike are at the top of the list. They say there's a lot of money to be made. And you know what? If it's made by slaves or if it's made by people living under a regime so repressive that they will be tortured or killed for being Christians, these are facts. This is not

my fact or your fact. These are facts, but there are people who dare to lecture others about morality. and they themselves don't understand that if you don't believe in freedom for those people, you're a hypocrite. And that's where we are today. And so it's one of the reasons I do this show and why I want to talk to you to help people get a perspective that this is going to happen over and over

unless we teach ourselves over and over what is freedom and what is this other view of things. And you, of course, you've lived it. Just one addition in China, you have Muslims that are being persecuted as well. And interestingly enough, this administration, who has been tagged of being anti-Muslim, has slammed some punishment, what do they call it?

Sanctions. Hang on, Jack. We're going to go to a hard break. I want to pick that up. Very important subject. Hey, Albin, isn't it time that we heard about what Janice has to say about Relief Factor? We're sponsors of Relief Factor on this program. It works for me.

I talk about it all the time, but let's hear from somebody else. Here's Janice. I was skeptical at first, but because of the pain that I was having when I would substitute teach and have to climb stairs. I have lower back, hip, and even knee pain. And after about three weeks, I found that I could climb stairs pain free. But it wasn't only pain free. I could do it step over step without holding on the railing.

I'm really happy. It makes me feel like I'm young again. I love stories like this. That's great. Well, look, I've talked to so many people I've had this experience. I told you that I've had this experience. Relieffactor.com is the website for 1995. By the way, the reason it's so popular is very cheap.

You take this stuff. It's all botanicals. Within three weeks, you will know if it works for you. Sometimes in three days, you'll know we're in a day. But I'm saying give it three weeks. Relieffactor.com. Relieffactor.com. Folks, I'm talking to Jack Barski.

He's the author of Deep Undercover. He was a former. He is a former KGB agent. He's become a Christian. He lives in America. He loves freedom. You were just saying, Jack, about how sometimes this president is criticized as being anti-Muslim, and yet he's criticized the Chinese for being genuinely anti-Muslim.

I don't think this president is actually anti-Muslim. They love to say things like that in the press and to tease things out that ought not to be teased out from a more fundamental kind of statement, but we have real racial horrors happening in China. And it seems that this president, perhaps ironically, is the only one to have faced China. You just said that. Previous presidents, they didn't seem to say anything about communist China. There's examples in history, the appeasement of Hitler. You know, if you heard Hitler, if you just play nice, we're going to give you a,

part of Czechoslovakia, and then, you know, what happens? You cannot appease an aggressive nation, an aggressive government, and hope that they will stop. But I want to go back to what you mentioned about the morality and the lack thereof. When you are your own God, or you are the determinant of what is moral by yourself, then anything goes. And this is what we are faced with in this postmodernistic society, postmodern society, there is no acceptance of universal moral law, which easily can be found in the Ten Commandments. And then the basic, you know, the number one law that was issued by Jesus, love thy neighbor, as you love thyself, that is not being accepted.

Once we get back to that particular platform, people will actually. self-restrain and there's plenty of money to be made without abusing, horribly abusing your fellow man. You've seen horrible things in your lifetime, being an actual member of the KGB. You saw there was a ruthlessness. Are you seeing that again? In other words, when you take God out of the equation and when you give people this false idea that they can create utopia. If only they will have total freedom, if only they can get

rid of the authorities of the police and so on and so forth, they themselves will do cruel things because they think it's somehow in the service of something better. Do you remember what it felt like to believe those things? You mean believe the romantic notion of communism? And that the ends justify the means, that betraying someone or subjecting someone to the possibility of a cruel imprisonment was just something you had to do. I remember and I bought into it because, you know, I myself became an accomplished liar, even though I was wired to be pretty truthful, but I rationalized because, you know, when you think you're serving a greater cause, anything goes.

and that anything applies to others in those types of systems that are governed by ideology and that anything gets to a point where you eradicate millions of Jews because they're not real people. And here's my concern. We're not anywhere near that, but we were slowly moving in that direction, no matter how good people think they are, or now advocating a movement towards collectivism, watch what you're asking for, you might get it. And that revolution historically has always eaten its own.

I was gonna say you see it over and over again in history. And of course, only time will tell what happens in China. There are at least 100 million serious Christians in China who are currently being oppressed by the Chinese, communist government, and I dare say they know the difference between having faith and not having faith or having freedom and not having freedom. And I know that they're praying. And we don't know what's going to happen to China. But if Americans don't have the guts to stand against the tremendous oppression that's happening, of course, now in Hong Kong and around China and aren't

willing perhaps to pay a price, maybe paying more for a product so that the people over there aren't suffering. It's very hard for us really to hold our heads up. And so I just wanted to have you come on and remind us that this is real. You have lived this. How did you come to faith in Jesus out of this communist background? As with many people, it started with a personal crisis. you know, initially, I'm at, I'm wired to be a thinker. I'm thinking before I'm feeling. And so very early on when I started thinking, really thinking about sort of a world view, I realized that, you know, atheism was a bunch of nonsense, just another belief.

So I buried myself in, you know, agnosticism. It's the coward's way out. I don't know, I don't care, right? but I was at least receptive. My ears were open. And, you know, I was in the middle of a crisis when my now wife appeared conveniently as an employee of mine

and started aggressively evangelizing me. Progressively evangelizing you. I like that. Her own boss in Princeton, New Jersey, where it was probably career liberal limiting to admit that you're a Christian. But I find it funny, of course, that she did what she felt God wanted her to do. And as a result of that, we're now having a conversation and you're in a totally different

place in life. What a wonderful thing that your wonderful wife was willing to do that. I think that there are many people today in corporate America, they're scared to death to say anything because maybe they're afraid about losing their jobs. And then you start thinking, wait a second, don't you believe God is the author of your career and your life? Don't you think that if you lose a job because you're speaking up for him, maybe he has another job for you, or maybe he has something else for you, or maybe he has a spouse for you right in front of you who is going to leave his agnostic thinking because you're bold. I mean, it just, I think to

myself, if it had to be able to be. I think to myself, if it hadn't. for my dear friend, Ed Tuttle, witnessing to me at Union Carbide in Danbury, Connecticut, where would I be today? So I hope that what you're saying helps people in corporate America speak up, not just about their faith, but about anything that's true. We're going to be right back. Final segment with Jack Barski, don't go away. Folks, I'm talking to Jack Barski. He was a KGB agent in the Soviet Union. He is today a proud American citizen, a Christian. Jack, it's an amazing thing that your wife, who was your employee here in America,

was willing to share her faith with you, even though you were her boss. She wasn't a faith. That kind of courage, you're talking about courage in the workplace and in the corporate arena. I would like to extend this to the church per se. I believe the church needs to speak out. Sometimes it feels, and I have no evidence for that, but it feels like everybody is worried about their 501C3 status. And I'm not saying the church should tell you how to vote.

But remember Reinhold Niebuhr, this famous quote, first day came, Reinhold Niebuhr for the audience. He was a pastor in Germany who initially thought Hitler was not a bad guy. And so the quote is, first, they came for the Jews and I didn't want to, I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't care. Then they came for the union. I wasn't a member of the union. I didn't care. And then they came for the whatever. And then they came for me and nobody was there to stand up for me. People, we need to be out. I'm not saying radical, wild and crazy, but we have, as Christians, we have a responsibility to defend morality and our faith and ourselves.

Well, you know, this is music to my ears. I say this kind of thing often because I think a lot of American Christians have become very soft and complacent and they're unable to understand that there are other people depending on our having the courage to speak the truth. If you're in a corporate environment and somebody tells you to take a knee or to hate yourself because you're white or whatever it is. You have a duty to God to say, I'm sorry, that doesn't really make sense to me. And I'm not just going to go along with this because you're bullying me into this, because you're threatening me quietly that I can lose my job. I belong to God. And I speak the truth. And even if I get it wrong, I'm going to try to speak the truth. I think we have a lot of Christians in America

unwilling to do that. And a lot of pastors, as you said, that they don't want to lose a 501c3 or they don't want to alienate anybody. And I think, folks, now is the time. Bonhofer was trying to wake up the church in his time. They did not wake up until it was too late. I believe in writing my book on Bonhofer in a way it was a prophetic thing. I had no idea at the time, but to say to the church, if you don't wake up, this will happen. If you don't speak the truth, if you don't risk your job or whatever it is, if you're not willing to risk the job, you're not trusting God. And Jack, you know, you're a real example of this because you left a very dark life to come to this country. And I'm just, I'm grateful that you're willing to share your perspective on America

today. I didn't know you were going to say what you were going to say, but say it again. I mean, talking to pastors, there are many pastors that they seem to, they seem just to shrink from even leaning toward these things? I'm not going to name names, but a rather well-known pastor did a video shining the shoes of a black man, both of them Christians. The visual of this puts those two in the same space as the visual of the cop kneeling on George Floyd. both of them are visuals and they say something. Okay?

And there's a lot of, there's a lot of, you know, as you know, I'm married to a person of color. There's a lot of people of color who object to this kind of condescending, benevolent attitude, whether it's well-meaning or not. We're out of time, but I do think that we've begun an important conversation. I'm very grateful to you, Jack, for all you have said and we'll continue to say,

Kyi you keep speaking up and we'll have you back as soon as possible. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.