The Eric Metaxas Show - James Rasenberger

Episode Date: July 17, 2020

Samuel Colt changed America when he invented the six-shooter, and James Rasenberger tells the history and fascinating story of Colt and his invention in his newest book, "Revolver."

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Please keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times. This is your final warning. Now here's your host, Mr. Thrill Ride himself. Eric Mataxis. Hey, folks. Do you like history? Because I don't.

Actually, I do. I've written history books. It's a fact that I'm fascinated by history. And whenever I discover a book or an author who's written about things in history, I'm all in. We have with us on the program, Jim Razenberger. He has written a book about someone you've heard of him. Sam Colt, the book is called Revolver,

not to be confused with the Beatles album, Sam Colt and the Sixth Shooter that changed America. Jim Risenberger, welcome to this program. Thanks. Great to be here. Thanks for having it. Congratulations on the book titled Revolver. I know some of this history and I don't know some of this history. So I was excited to see that you'd written a book about this, because I think a lot of times we take things for granted.

When you think of a six-shooter, that's like a pencil with an eraser. I don't think about who invented it. What led you to this subject and this man? Well, as we were talking about before we started chatting by Zoom, is I grew up in Washington, D.C., live in New York City, so I don't come out of a gun culture. And given the other books I've written, And I'm kind of an odd person in a way to write a book about a gun.

But, of course, I knew Colt growing up from movies. I knew the name. And somebody suggested Colt to me. And I thought, well, that's interesting. And I started looking into him. And immediately two things jumped out about him and his gun. The first is the impact that his gun had on the opening of the West in the United States. before Colt, guns only fired one bullet at a time without reloading.

Colt had the first practical gun that could fire multiple bullets. This had an enormous role in how Pioneer, settlers went out west, the confidence with which they went out west and confronted Native Americans, who oftentimes are hostile, also each other. They were hostile to each other often. So that one thing, this very important demographic impact it has, At the same time, if you're talking the 1840s, the 1850s, the revolver, the way it was made, had an extraordinary impact economically on the country because Sam Colt was one of the great

industrial pioneers in this country. His factory in Hartford was the most advanced factor in the world, and it pioneered interchangeable uniform parts. That may sound kind of boring, but in fact, everything we live with from our computers to our automobiles is made of interchangeable uniformed. It sounds like Henry Ford is what it sounds like. It sounds like if it weren't for, I mean, it sounds like one step before Henry Ford's assembly line. Absolutely. I mean, Henry Ford thought he invented all of this, but Henry Ford didn't read much history. It came way before him.

It really started in the Connecticut River Valley with gunmakers for a number of very interesting reasons, one being that the government was the main buyer of guns and they called. could sort of control how guns got made, and they wanted interchangeable uniform parts. But Colt understood quickly that this was how you mass manufacture something. You use machines to make it. You make all the pieces the same, and then you assemble them together.

I mean, it is true that Henry Ford perfected the assembly line, but all the components of the assembly line were up and going well before the Civil War. I mean, and Colt. He kept up with this idea when he was 16 years old. Is that correct? That's correct. He had been in a boarding school in Amherst, Massachusetts, for just a few months. He got thrown out because on the 4th of July of 1830, he lit off a cannon from the hill in the middle of town, got thrown out of school. A month later, he ends up on a ship at the age of 16, bound for Calcutta, India. It's almost voids that he... Excuse me, why...

Why does he go on the chair? He was a propoe that he gets thrown out for setting off a cannon. That's kind of amazing. But what in the world was he doing in 1830 something going to Calcutta? You know, it was, in those days, young men who wanted adventure when they got on a ship. You know, you think of Herman Melville, you know, later about Moby Dick. Later, young men would go out west for adventure, the American Northwest. But the country was still very focused on the east.

The country looked east and so did Colt. And he was looking for a great adventure. Now, I managed to find some great journals of missionaries who were on the ship with him. And he apparently was miserable for almost the entire voyage. But he did, perhaps because he was miserable, he did invent this gun, literally whittled it out of pieces of scrapwood. And those pieces still exist in the Wadsworth Atheney and Hartford. I can't believe we're hearing this. Look, I'm from Connecticut.

grew up in Danbury. I have driven thousands of hundreds of times, you know, through the tobacco valley. And I want to get to this later, but I just want to mention that, so this happened in Hartford. Every time I drive through Hartford, I look to my right, if I'm driving home to Danbury, and I see the most bizarre sight, an onion dome, a Russian onion dome. And a friend of said, oh, you don't know the story about Sam Colt and Russia, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So at some point in this hour together, I want you to tell that story. But let's go back to the beginning. You're telling me that this 16-year-old gets an idea that changes the world while he's on a ship. And he just carves it out of wood. I mean, honestly, when I read this account, I said,

this is amazing. This is genuinely amazing that no one had thought of this before, that a 16-year-old comes up with this? You know, why didn't say I should come up with this, you know, 20 years earlier? It doesn't make sense. Well, there had been attempts. I mean, there had been a lot of attempts to make a gun that could fire multiple bullets without reloading. Going all the way back to Leonardo da Vinci, who invented, he probably never made it,

but he at least drew a sketch of something called a duck foot cannon. In a duck foot, it's kind of multiple barrels laid out like the toes of the duck. That was one method. And there had been other attempts to try a revolving cylinder, which is what Colt landed upon. But Colt, first of all, he says claims he never knew about those. Other people said he did, but he probably did not because they never got anywhere. They basically, you know, people came up with these ideas and then they went away as many great ideas do. What he really invented, though, was how to turn the cylinder.

That was the hard part. How you use the trigger, every time you cock the trigger to turn the cylinder and lock it, tightly with the barrel of the gun. Very important. Otherwise, you'd have basically all the bullets to go off at the same time. So he came up with a practical way to do it. I mean, it's like many great inventions.

Other people have thought of it before, but they didn't nail it. Colton nailed it. And the fact he did it at 16 is absolutely mind-boggling. And then, of course, how he went about getting this thing done is even more incredible.

Well, so let's talk about this. So he's just looking for adventure. He jumps on a ship to Calcutta. Obviously, there are missionaries going to India and he invents this thing. What happens next? What does he do? Does he do anything in India or does he realize I got a hot item and I better head back and start manufacturing this? He comes back, lands in Boston on July 4th of 1831, goes back home where his father's running a mill and where in Massachusetts, hangs a sort of a normal life for about a month, and then comes up with this crazy idea to make money

to turn his wooden model into an actual gun. And he needs a lot of money to do this. So he launches on what I call the nitrous oxide tour, and it takes him about two and a half years. He goes from town to town starting in New England, then down south, and all around the country, renting out halls, putting ads in newspapers, and giving performances of nitrous oxide, that is laughing gas.

So he would, you know, people would come in, he called himself Dr. Colt, even if he was 17 and had no, you know, claim to that title whatsoever. People would come to these, he'd come up, and he basically would get them stoned on nitrous oxide, and everybody would, you know, laugh uproariously. And one of the extraordinary things about this is he did it during a great pandemic in the country at the time, the cholera pandemic of 1832. And I found that he came into New York City, either the very day or the day after,

the entire city fled trying to get away from cholera. That's the day Sam Polter decides to come into New York City, July 4th, 1832. And does one of his shows. Sorry, we've gone over. Jim, my apologies. That's the end of the first segment. Folks, welcome back.

I'm talking to the author of Revolver, Sam Colt and the sixth shooter that changed America. Jim Rasmberger continue the story. He comes back and he decides he needs some money. What does he do to raise money, the 17-year-old? He launches on a tour of the entire country at the time, giving performances of nitrous oxide. That is laughing gas.

What he would do is go to a town, rent out a public hall, put an ad in the newspaper, inviting audiences to come from. for 25 cents, 50 cents, they would come to the hall and they'd file up and he would give them hits of nitrous oxide gas and get them all laughing uproariously. So this is definitely laughing gas. So of course, the big question, if you don't mind, my interrupting, where in the world does a 17-year-old get the idea to do this?

How does, you know, nitrous oxide, when was it discovered that it could do this? and were other people going around giving these tours? I mean, this guy seems so inventive and creative and crazy. Where does he get this idea from to raise money? Well, natural stocks, I guess, had become sort of well-known. It's been discovered by an English scientist named Humphrey Davy in the late 18th century. And so the early 19th century has become sort of popular. No one really understood it as an anesthetic yet,

but they certainly understood the potential to just have fun on it. And so Colt was not the first to use nitrous oxide in this sort of performative way. But I never come upon anyone else who went to quite the extent that he did. I mean, he started in New England, came to New York City, went into New Jersey, went down south. I discovered a journal where he, just the first page of the journal, ended up on a slave ship that went from Norfolk, down to New Orleans. He goes to New Orleans and then he comes up the Mississippi giving performances of nitrous oxide and then into the Ohio River ends up in Pittsburgh, gets thrown out of Pittsburgh

because one of his performances gets too raucous. And then comes down the Erie Canal. I mean, he's basically going around the entire settled country at that top. Where does he get nitrous oxide? I mean, if you're going up to Mississippi, where is he getting his supplies of nitrous? This sounds just like it's made up. It's crazy. He gets, it's ammonia nitrate.

and then you heat it. You heat the crystals up, and then it produces this gas that he would capture in a kind of what was called a gasometer. You capture a bag. And then it's purified through water, kind of like a water pipe. And there's a little valve that people,

like it looks like you would blow into an clarinet, and you could breathe it in. Okay, so I don't mean to get off on this digression, but this guy for two and a half years to raise money so that he can make these revolvers that he invented, he does this, he raises the money, and then what? And then he starts hiring gunsmiths to make prototypes. So he's not actually making the prototypes himself.

He hires a guy in Hartford, then he hires a guy in Baltimore, and they make him a number of these prototypes. To make a long story short, by the time he's 21, he has investors for a corporation, I mean, that's pretty incredible. Corporations were pretty rare back then, but he's got a corporation with wealthy investors,

opens his first company in Patterson, New Jersey, at the age of 21. This company gets a lot of publicity. The guns are expensive. They kind of don't work that well. They're very complicated. That business, and I should say, Cote is living very large for a couple years there. He's 21.

He's in New York. He's having a great time. I found receipts for clothing, for alcohol, for cigars. He's living large, but then the company goes out of business, and then he's poor for a number of years and trying everything, but keeps, you know, stays determined to get back in the gun business. And then, you know, history starts working, having worked against him for a while, starts working in his favor in the 1840s. So when does this gun become affordable so that, you know, it's something that can affect. history. When does that moment happen? So it starts in the 1840s, and there's a big

moment in June 8, 1844, and this is when the Texas Rangers bring out the revolver in their fight against the Comanche Indians. It's an important moment because until this moment, the Rangers, Texas Rangers, have been fighting the Comanche but demonstrating exactly what was wrong with a single shot weapon in fighting horseback Native Americans who were wonderful warriors. The Native Americans had bow and arrow. They could fire 20 or 30 arrows in a minute.

They were on horseback and could travel at about 20 or 30 miles per hour. The Rangers also on horseback, but they had to get off their horses to fire their weapons. They'd fire and then it took them half a minute to reload the goal. So, of course, what the Comanches would do is let them fire and then swoop in and kill them. So one day, the revolvers, they get this load of, Colt revolvers, just five-shot revolvers, and they turn the tables on the Comanche that day. And that's the beginning. And this becomes a kind of famous incident. Gets Colt back in the gun business, working with a guy named Sam Walker or Texas Ranger. By the 1840s, mid-1840s, late 1840s, people are starting to move out west because this is the age of manifest destiny.

This is the age of the gold rush. And so everybody wants one of these new fans. guns that can fire five and then six bullets. And that's when it's, you know, it's the more that cult produces, the cheaper he can make them. And the simpler he can make them. And they start to become affordable. And everybody going out west, they want, you know, they want to take a lot with them. But the two most important insurances are the Bible and the revolver.

I mean, because it was dangerous out there. Guns and Bibles. I've heard of that. You've heard of that, yeah. I live in Manhattan. you live in Manhattan. I'm on the east side. You're on the west side. But even we have heard about guns and Bibles. Well, look, I'm so fascinated by this. And part of the reason is that it's making me realize that I don't know my gun history. For example, you know, when you mention the revolver

being invented at this time, when was the rifle invented? When do we go from musket balls to rifles? Well, rifling had been around before Colt. And guns that were, you know, they were very powerful and accurate. I mean, so the Kentucky long gun or the Pennsylvania rifle, these are these very long rifles. They were rifled, meaning that they were grooved in a way that they could fire the projectile with accuracy and velocity. So it wasn't that guns weren't powerful and accurate. It was that they only fired one shot at a time. And, you know, so decent guns had been along for around for a long time.

One of the big changes that happened, though, in the early 19th century, was, you know, we went from guns being flintox, wheel locks. These were methods of igniting primer and then the gunpowder. Yeah, were fairly tricky. And then once the cap lock is invented in the early 19th century, it's kind of basically a cap, a fulminate mercury. It goes off and then it lights the gunpowder. that made the revolver possible. So, you know, a number of things had to happen. When were cartridges, you know, bullet cartridges invented, the kind of thing.

Later. They come later. When do they have to come? They are invented in the 1850s. They start getting used in the 80s. But in iterations, it don't work out very well. But by the 1860s, they really take over. And of course, they make loading a weapon much easier than it had been before.

So the original six shooter or the five shooter that was invented by Colt, you're not putting bullets into the chamber. You're putting lead into the chamber. You are. You're putting lead balls. And it was a very cumbersome thing to do. You almost had to take the entire gun apart. You would remove a cylinder, remove the barrel.

Then each chamber in it, you would put in gunpowder, you put in the ball, you'd have to shove it down with a lever. So it was cumbersome. It got easier as time it on, but originally very difficult thing to do. Absolutely amazing. So this character, Sam Colt, I mean, I just cannot get over what you're telling me about him. He obviously hits it. It's like inventing the computer.

When you invent the sixth shooter, you change the world, basically. So talk about that because the title of your book is Revolver, Sam Colton's computer that changed America. It's what you just said is very true. I mean, he's been compared to Steve Jobs. They had a lot of differences, but they were both, he's one of these disruptive forces that comes along a couple times a generation that just changed the game completely. And so it, you know, it had extraordinary effect on, on, as I've seen, how people went out west and, you know, also how things got made, not just in this country, but then around the entire world,

because Colts sort of proselytized the American system to the rest of the world. I want to hear more about that when we come back. Folks, I'm talking to Jim Radsenberger. The book is Revolver, Samuel Colt, and the Sixth Shooter that changed America. Don't go away. President Trump has a huge announcement for his top supporters. We'll be celebrating the 2020 Republican National. Convention this summer and he wants you to enter for your chance to join him at the convention.

If you win, the team will cover the flight, hotel and give you VIP passes for yourself and a guest. All you have to do is text Metaxus to 88022 today for your chance to meet President Trump at the convention. Again, that's METAXAS to 88022 to enter to win this once in a lifetime opportunity via a special guest paid for by Donald J. Trump for president. Hey there, folks. It's here from The Taxis Show. I'm talking to the author of a new book called Revolver about the actual revolver, the gun, not the Beatles album, Sam Colt and the Sixth Shooter that Changed America, Jim Razzenberger, I was mentioning earlier that, you know,

having grown up in Connecticut, every time I would drive through Hardford, I would see this onion dome, and I would think, what the heck is that? And a friend of mine told me the story of Sam Colt and his relationship. Tell my audience about that, because this is one of these larger-than-life 19th century stories,

You just don't think it's real, but it is. Yeah, well, I've talked about the impact that Colts Revolver had on the United States, but Colts, starting in the early 1850s, started traveling around the world. He was one of the most well-traveled Americans of his time, in fact. Went to England for the great exhibition of 1851. And he's both proselyizing how to make things, which is with machines and making uniform interchangeable parts. But of course, he's also, being cult, he's trying to sell his gun.

And it's a good time to sell a weapon around the world because you have the revolutions of 1848 in Europe. You've got the Crimean War in 1853. So Europeans want guns, and they're interested in this strange new gun that some of this odd American is developed. book. Code ends up in St. Petersburg, Russia, where he meets the Tsar, who's interested in buying revolvers to fight the Ottoman Turks. And coat, in fact, goes back to St. Petersburg a number of times. But that onion dome that's still there, kind of its cobalt blue with stars on it, and it's

got a ramping coat on the top of it. He got inspired by that. He built that during his lifetime. sort of an homage to the Russian domes each scene in St. Petersburg. But he was, and you could, you know, he would go up into it. You can actually still go up into that dome. But that was the cult factory, right? I mean, right now the highway goes right past it. And whenever I look at it, I think to myself, that's American history, right in that building, right there in Hartford.

It absolutely is. And the National Park Service is trying to make it a historic site. In fact, it is now. There are many people who like to make it a museum. They've run into some political opposition, but the story that I tell about coal is, yes, this is about guns, but this is American history. And you may not like it, but this is what happened.

The role of both the use and the manufacturer of weapons in this country, to try to ignore that is to miss a very significant piece of how, America became America in the mid-19th century. So, yeah, and I love that dome. It's on 91, Interstate 91, drive by it all the time. And it's wonderful that it's still there to see. And I heard about his friendship with the Tsar. I mean, again, this is like one of these crazy 19th century stories.

The idea that this American is going to Russia in those days, you know, talk about the other side of the world. And, you know, we forget that. Russia wasn't always allies with Turkey, that they were fighting them. There's just so much history. And the idea that there's this kid from Connecticut who becomes, you know, a major player. And guns, of course, there's nothing more American than the pistol for good and for ill. And it is just fascinating to me that you tell that story because you're quite right.

We wouldn't have been able to go into the West if we, if we hadn't had those guns. And again, that's a, it's a sad story in some ways and a good story in other ways. But the idea that technology is always changing history, this is an example of that, that until your book had completely bypassed me. Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, as you, the revolver had, you know, there are sort of different things that happened with a revolver, and the army started using it.

in massacres of Native Americans, these Plains Indians, they were rushing out on camp. So they're shameful parts of it. The other side of the story, though, is that it empowered Americans who wanted to go out West who were brave enough to take that journey. And I think it really informed the culture of American individualism because having the ability to have a weapon that could fire

six bullets. Let me ask you, when did it go from five to six? Because originally it was a five shooter. When did it become the famous six shooter? I just got to ask that. This is when this

Texas Ranger, Sam Walker got involved with Colts gun. And Sam Walker, being a Texan, he wanted a much bigger gun. So the gun they developed together was 15 inches long, almost five pounds. barrel was nine inches long.

He also wanted it to be six shots rather than five. And so that's what it became. And after, and that was in 1847. All the pistols after that were six shooters. And so that's where the six shooter began with his Texas Ranger, Sam Walker, himself a fascinating story. But he led Colt down the path to the six shooter. Well, it's kind of funny when you think about,

That's about the physical limit, right? When you think of the size of bullets and so and so forth, because you think, why not a 10 shooter? And you start realizing that at some point, it doesn't work. Folks, we're going to be right back with Jim Radzenberger. The book is Revolver, Sam Colton, the sixth shooter that changed America. This is the Air Contaxor show. Don't go away.

Folks, we're talking about guns, one gun in particular, the famous six-shooter, the revolver. that changed history and talking to the author of the book, Revolver, Sam Colton, the Sixth Shooter that changed history, Jim Rasmberger. Jim, did Winchester come into this story, or is that a completely different part of the story? He does come into the story, but he really comes into the story after Colt dies. Colt dies at the beginning of the Civil War. There were, you know, of course, once Colt came along, many other gun manufacturers,

trying to come up with their own multi-shot firearm. Some were trying to copy Colt and infringe on his patent. Others were coming up with very different systems. Winchester, he didn't invent a gun, but he purchased guns that had been invented by other inventors, like a guy named Henry. And these were different kinds of guns. They loaded either in tubes above or below the barrel. or they loaded at the back of the gun,

and they could fire between seven and later, the Henry Rook could fire 16 shots. So, and they were lever action. Rather than a revolver where you pull a trigger and turn a cylinder, you pull a lever and it reloads with each shot. So things get much faster after Colt. The revolver sticks around forever, of course.

I mean, they're still revolvers. other forms of multi-shot weapons come into being during the Civil War and then particularly after the Civil War, you know, that's when Winchester rifles really become quite famous. It's just such amazing stuff. Now, if you don't mind my asking, because this is your new book, but you've written about a lot of interesting periods in history. So what are some of the other topics that you touch on in your other books? Yeah, I think if I were smart, I probably would stick with the same subject between books, but I don't do that. I always find myself wanting to go to something different than what I've gone into before.

And you've written books, you know, it's such an intense thing, and you're deep into it, but then to start something new is wonderful too. So anyway, my last book was about the Bay of Pigs invasion of 1961 under the Kennedy administration. completely different sort of thing. I've also written a book about Manhattan skyscrapers and particularly about the men who put them up, ironworkers, a lot of the Mohawk Indians. Fascinating history story.

I've heard that a number of times that when you look at some of these photographs of skyscrapers being put up a hundred years ago and more, the idea that people, would be walking around way up there. It's a staggering thing. So what was it about the Mohawk Indians that would make them somehow suited for this?

I've never really gotten an answer on that. Yeah, and there were a lot of theories at the time that they were used to walking on forced paths, single file and stuff, a lot of nonsense, really. It was really necessity. They came from a reservation up near Montrioka, Ghana-Wage, and a lot of bridges were going up over the St. Lawrence River, steel bridges. And they get well-paying jobs. And they were willing to do it.

I mean, a lot of times it's just somebody willing to do something dangerous. And then they started coming down to New York during the great skyscraper boom of the teens in the 1920s. Another group, or Newfoundlanders, got into it early in the 20th century, too. And the incredible thing is the guys building skyscrapers when I was writing my book. This is the early 21st century, right after 9-11. The guys at the very top of the building doing the most dangerous work. Most of them were still Mohawk Indians and Newfis, as they're called. So they're like this generation.

You have got to be kidding. You're telling me a few years ago that they were still, that's amazing. I mean, I laugh because when I think about, you know, my background is Greek. And, you know, Greeks are always in the restaurant business. They used to be, all the florists in New York used to be Greek. All the furriers used to be Greek. It's fascinating how that kind of works out. But to think that folks from Newfoundland and Mohawk Indians, my gosh, would into this century still be working way up like that.

I mean, I just have to say that's completely, that's news to me. I don't want to get away from the subject of your new book. But in the book, we're evolving. Alver, you know, you obviously talk about the death of Sam Colt. He seems to have died fairly young. Of what did he, did he die? He died, yes, he did die young and he died, you know, just at the beginning of the Civil War, which, of course, is a terrible time for gun manufacturer to tie, as he said, this is time to make hay. But, you know, these last years of his life, there's kind of a dark irony comes into his life. He gets more and more successful and sicker and sicker.

It was called either gout or rheumatoid arthritis. I spoke to a number of doctors about this. probably rheumatoid arthritis then became developed complications, but he dies at the age of 47, which is extremely young and just at the moment that his factory is really taking up. And what's really incredible about Colt? I mean, he was not necessarily a good man. I mean, he broke most of the commandments at one point or another. But he was, his greatness really shined through, particularly at the beginning of the Civil War, when he, sick as he was, doubled the size of his armory,

basically doubled his capacity to make guns, even though he would do a lot of this from bed. I mean, he had this extraordinary determination and drive that entrepreneurs like him have to have. And also this ability that no matter what happens to knock you down, you get back up and you keep going. That is the kind of perseverance to me, is even when you find things about, you don't like,

you come back to that perseverance, And it kind of blows you away that somebody could keep going back for more, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. And I guess did he ever have a family? Did he ever marry? He did. He married late in life. He married in his 40s.

A woman named Elizabeth, who later took over the business, had a couple children, most of whom died very young. A lot of tragedy, as there was in the 19th century in families, a lot of people died of infectious diseases. and so forth. But he did get married and his wife lived up until the 20th century. Unbelievable. We're going to go to a final break. Folks, I'm talking to Jim Razenberger, spelled R-A-T-Z-E-N-B-E-R-G-E-R, Jim Razenberger. The book is Revolver. We'll be right back. That makes me tend to leave my sleeping bag rolled up and stashed behind your couch.

And it's knowing I'm not shackled by forgotten words and bonds. And the ink stains that are dried upon some... Got on board a westbound 747. Hey, folks, final segment with Jim Razenberger. I spelled it wrong. And as an author, you know, when you want to sell books, you got to get the name right. R-A-S-E-N-B-E-R-A-S-R-A-S-R-A-S-R-A-S-R-A-S-R-N-B-R-A-S-R-Mberger. Okay, Jim, we're talking about so much stuff here,

but talk about, you know, the California Gold Rush right before 1850. Talk about what happened with the gun at that point. Yeah, I mean, this was one of these extraordinary moments in American history and, of course, and it worked out to Colts benefit. it. The Mexican war ends. The United States takes possession of California and a lot of the territory in between the Mississippi and California. And then right after that, gold is discovered. So Americans start flooding to California, either going across land or going by ship. But the ones who go across land, what they want is a coke revolver to take with them because they know they're going to be meeting. Indians along the trail who they've heard a lot of scary stories about, and I should say, attacks weren't that common, but when they happened, they were terrible.

I mean, people were tortured and raped and murdered in the most heinous ways. So they were right to be worried about this. But one of the indications of how much people going to California wanted the gun was how the prices inflated so much. You could get a good coat revolver in New York at the time for 20, to $32. Out in California, guns were selling for $200, $250. I even found a report for a cult revolver selling for $500.

Now, okay, in those days, 180 years ago, $27 or $200. I mean, that's a, this is a lot of money in those days. There's no question about it. And what is it with a caliber, 45 caliber, I'm assuming, but I should ask. These were 44 caliber of guns, the big ones were. Coat made them in all different calibers, but the large ones, they're known as either the neighbor of the army, mainly 44 calibers.

The 45 came later, the famous Colt 45, but, you know, Colt would make them in all different sizes for different people. I mean, people started carrying them in New York, too, much smaller guns, you know, maybe a 32 caliber, because Primes started going up in the 1840s and the 1840s, 1950s. The police started using revolvers. So, you know, it wasn't like the East Coast wasn't using them, but it was really this flood of people going west who had this real necessity to have this new weapon. It is, again, it's just amazing to learn about history and to see how, you know,

on the one hand, nothing changes and the other hand, everything changes. But the idea that technology plays such a big role. I mean, we haven't talked about. the railroad because that's not what your book's about. But we forget that these things that we take for granted were, we're completely, we're game changers. And the gun in America, there was no bigger game changer than the gun and the revolver. It's interesting, especially now when people talking about defunding the police, you know, most people in America think, well, I'm fine, I've got a gun. But you and I, Manhattan, we don't got guns, at least that we can admit to. I don't I don't have one.

But it is an interesting thing when you think of the American spirit and traveling across this country and how central a role the gun played, which is, I think, you know, that history is still with us in so many ways. We're out of time, Jim, but I just, I'm really grateful to you for being able to tell the story in print and to come on this program. The folks, the book, again, is called Revolver, Sam Colt and the Sixth Shooter, the changed America. Jim Risenberger. Thank you so much. Thank you, Eric. That was great. Enjoyed it.