The Eric Metaxas Show - Jerry Pattengale

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

Dr. Jerry Pattengale, The Anxious Middle: Planning for the Future of the Christian College

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m.investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. It's the show about everything. And we do mean everything. Yes, even that.

Yep, that too. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely that. Now, here's everything that you want in a host, Eric Mattaxas. Folks, welcome to Hour 2. In a few minutes, I'm talking to Jerry Pattengale about his book. But right now, I get to continue my conversation with Albin Seder. Albin, welcome back. Yay, thank you, Eric.

I'm here plugging my book, obvious. It's obvious, yes. The book is obvious. The title is obvious. It's actually obvious. No, literally, it's obvious. You wrote an article recently, which was very funny. I wanted to talk to you about that article.

Where did the article appear? Well, the article appeared at the blaze. It also appeared a couple of the streams. Stream.org, of course, had the article. And it came out a Super Bowl weekend. And the article, this is the title, sure, the left has Taylor Swift, but we have cat turd. And the reason why I want to mention the article specifically is because Matt Walsh,

who we all love, the guy's a hero. He really, talk about fighting the good fight. Matt Walsh is one of the good guys. Well, he read the article, and the Monday after Super Bowl, he actually used it on the air because it's a Blaze article. And he kind of got his chops or whatever you call it there at the Blaze, as I did too. Previously to the Eric Pitaxas show, I worked at the Blaze. But he was saying that, well, it sounds like a Babylon B title. But the guy is actually serious.

He actually thinks Cap Tirt is about on the whole thing. level as Taylor Swift. And he missed it. It's like, no, I'm trying to use the example that we have a lot of little tiny little cat turds, if you will. And we have a lot of people who are in the mid-level. Of course, we don't have a Taylor Swift style person, someone that's so huge. And I don't want to say cat turd is Goliath. You were making a point. You were being deliberately ironic and funny. and he didn't he didn't really pick up on that. Yeah, no, and he's a serious guy, and he doesn't seem to have the same type of sense of humor,

because he even said, well, he said, oh, the guy's real name isn't Carl Tatt, Tart turd. Well, I know the guy's real name isn't, you know, he didn't get it. Now, he's a great guy. I don't think he is, like I said, the same kind of sense of humor. And he didn't know where I was coming from.

I don't think he's ever read anything else by me. I mean, in obvious, I have a lot of jokes and funny things, but I'm trying to make a point through the funny and the obvious in my book, you know, in my book obvious. That's who I am, as you know. But your larger point, which was an important point in the article, was, well, say what it was, so I don't say it.

Well, the idea was that we have a lot of folks in the background who are kind of like making their move. They're kind of coming up from the shadows in the background. And one thing I'd point to is back in the 70s, there was the phrase, the silent majority. And they were basically on the side of Nixon and the conservative. side. And people were like, well, in the news back then as well, you heard all the liberal stuff. Now, it wasn't this far, far, far, far left stuff that was obviously crazy. But it was still, you know, well, you know, McGovern and people like that, they're the good guys and Nixon bad, bad, bad. And we found out there were some bad things about Nixon. Again, not as bad as somebody like a Biden or an Obama, but there's some bad things in all people, good and bad, right? But there was the silent majority. and they were the small voiceless, as it were, people. But when it came to Election Day and when it came to important things,

they rose up and said, no, we're the culture, really. And that's what we're seeing with the truckers going down to the border and the trucker saying, we're not coming to New York City to deliver goods because we're here. And we're not going to just be silent and let the, you know, we're going to make them move. And that's what's what obvious is about.

That's what letter to the American Church. is about. That's what you and I and all those smaller or intermediate voices are saying. We're not going to sit back and just let you guys swing roller over us with somebody like a Taylor Swift. Okay. There are a lot of, it is very interesting because we're living at a time when, I mean, it's what your article is about, but that we are finding our voice, that it used to be that the elite media, that the cultural elites, they really had a monopoly in terms of the information being disseminated. Something has been happening.

It took time. Talk radio, which we're on right now, was a big part of that. People listening to Rush Limbaugh, the internet, that all of these people who had no voice suddenly began to have a voice. And something is happening. And let's face it, that is a threat to the cultural elites. The people who have been in power are profoundly threatened by the little guy. and the little gal, they're threatened by that. They don't like it. And so something wonderful is happening in America and has been happening. And the question is, will those elite, cultural elites, those powerful voices, will they be able to crush the little guy? And that's what they're trying to do. They've been trying to do it through, you know, squelching us on Twitter before Elon Musk got a hold of Twitter and trying to shut us down on YouTube. We were shut down on YouTube. It's really easy.

There was an interview that Tucker Carlson did with, I can't think of it. I think it's Michael Benz, Mike Benz. Anyway, it's an amazing interview. We'll be talking about it more. But where he talks about this. That interview will blow your mind. But also in that interview with Tucker Carlson, when Cap Tard was talking to Tucker, Tucker, Tucker brought out the fact that Cat Tart with his little, kindy little digs.

He got under the skin of that the congressman. Adam Kinsinger with a cartoon. I mean, and Kinsiger, who's way up here, okay, he started getting all crazy and said, I'm going to punch that guy's lights out, but he was some little guy, like throwing a little pebble at him. I mean, he was some David, as it were, going up against the Goliath, and yet he had some kind of an effect. And what I'm saying in the article is that we have a lot of these little guys going up against the so-called Taylor Swift's who so-called represent the culture. But there are a lot of us back. there, we were not buying it. We just aren't buying into that stuff. Taylor picked,

Taylor Swift has made a whole career writing songs about picking the wrong guy. In every relationship, she picks the wrong guy. And in this case, in the presidential contest, she's done it again. She's picked the wrong guy. He's going to break her heart. And it's, but I mean, it is kind of funny. But you know, Albin, there's, we're saying something that's so important here that anybody listening, if you think you don't have a voice, that's a lie from the devil. You have a voice. Use your voice. Your voice could be the tipping point. Your one voice could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. If every single one of us will use our voice, we'll do what we can. You don't have a lot of money. You give the money you have to God's purposes, to causes of

freedom. You use what voice you have. You use what influence you have. You use what influence you have. It's simply every one of us has to know that God counts on us to use our voice and our influence, whatever we can do. Get involved, wherever you can get involved. Do not be intimidated by these powerful forces that say, you know, you're nobody. We're the cultural elites. We'll tell you how to think. That's not how America was founded and that's not how America will continue. We're losing our country because people have been persuaded that they have no voice. Yeah, and I mean, the Bible encourages us every day. Here's one verse, one verse. If you just memorize and cling to this one, 2 Corinthians chapter 1, verse 7, God has not given us a spirit

of fear, but of love, of power, and of sound mind. Now, think about that. He starts with love. Now, this is God giving us to it. We're loving people, okay? But he's given us the power, And he's given us the mind, a sound thinking. That's why so many things are obvious, like the title of my book. And in there, I try, I encourage with lots of scripture and lots of great quotes like the G.K. Chesterton quote, all kinds of good stuff. And Eric wrote the forward to the book, for heaven's sakes. And in Eric's book, Letter to the American Church. And in the movie, it's all about encouraging us and building us up and knowing that in love, we've got the power of God. And we've got a sound mind. We can think because we know that, These things are so crazy. Why do we know they're crazy? Because God has given us, you know, the spirit of intellect and a spirit of fear against, we should be fearing God, not man, and God will be on our side. Who is on David's side when he went up against the Goliath? He said, the battle belongs to the Lord. Don't you think this battle belongs to the Lord? It's amazing. We're going to, we're at a time here. Folks, let me encourage you to get Albin's

book obvious. Let me encourage you to get my book Letter to the American Church. Go to the American Church.com. There's all kinds of resources there. Be a part of the movement. Alvin, thank you so much. Thank you, Eric. For 10 years, Patriot Mobile has been America's only Christian conservative wireless provider. And when I say only, trust me, they're the only one. Glenn and the team have been great supporters of this show, which is why I am proud to partner with them. Patriot Mobile offers dependable nationwide coverage, giving you the ability to access all three major networks, which means you get the same coverage you've been accustomed to without funding the left. When you switch to Patriot Mobile, you're sending the message that you support free speech,

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One of those guests is my guest right now, Dr. Jerry Pattengale. I've known Dr. Jerry Pattengale for some time. He's one of the founding scholars with the Museum of the Bible. He's written 50 books. He was on the board of the Yale's Jonathan Edwards Center. Can anything come out of Yale? Not really, but every now and every hundred years. So many things that he has done.

But he is now my guest, Dr. Jerry Pattengale. Welcome back. Well, it's good to be back, Eric. I enjoyed the last couple times and a lot of responses, you're doing good work. So it's great to be here. You thought you'd take another crack at it. You dared to come back on the show. Let me ask you, I want to talk to you about your new book with the title, The Anxious Middle.

Tell my audience, what is this new book, The Anxious Middle? Well, it plays off of Bonhofer. He talks about, from the creation, really to the return of Christ, we're kind of stuck in middle. And, you know, he wrote that, as you know well, from your book, we're living in that anxious time almost as much now as when he was living. You know, when he was living, it was traumatic and he was facing, you know, real challenge. But, you know, there's all kinds of issues hitting right now. We wrote this book before Hamas. So it came out and it's made it even more anxious for the schools, you know. So that's really where it's at.

And we're using four main thoughts from Creation of the Fall, one of Bonhofer's lesser-known works. It's a sermon on Genesis 1 through 4. And, you know, Eric, you studied him in depth. You know, when he got into that series, I mean, he'd finished a sermon, just drenched with sweat because he was kind of working out. How do you connect to this world? How do you really make this faith real with all the stuff happening around? And so what we did in this book, Todd Reem, who's also very prolific, special in Catholic issues right now, we want to say what's going to be the survival of the schools. And Bonhofer gives us a hint at what to do and how to do it without trying to do some fancy schemes or everything, getting back to the basis.

Now, when you say survival of schools, you're talking specifically about Christian colleges, Christian colleges that identify publicly. as Christian institutions of higher learning. Yeah, you're right. I mean, some people have predicted there'll be 15 schools closed in the near future just because of finances. I mean, it's tough time. Not just Christian schools. All schools are going through this.

And, you know, I'm fortunate to be at Indiana West then. And we have no debt. We have 13 to 15,000 students. But even here, it's tough with all the news, just the pressure. to pay for school, the pressure to be, if you're classified as woke, a lot of schools just take a dive. Well, listen, if a school is going woke, it should take a dive. It deserves to take a dive.

And I think that, let's be honest, a lot of schools that 15 years ago, I would have thought of as rock solid have drifted leftward, you know, into cultural Marxism or are not being strong in standing against it because they know there's a price to be paid and they don't want to pay that price, and they're making political miscalculations. I mean, to me, it's just like looking at Columbia University in 1968, right? They were dumb enough to say, well, we don't want to kick the student. The students have taken over the university president's office. And instead of doing the mature thing and saying, excuse me, young people, get out now, or you'll be thrown out and dragged out, because there are a lot of people who've worked really hard

to pay tuition to get an education here, and we're not going to let you and this coterie of spoiled individuals who don't really care about getting education, like hijacked the whole thing. In 1968, the heads of most of the Ivy League schools, but Columbia University here in New York is a classic example, they didn't have the guts. They didn't have the, really, they didn't have the courage of what should have been their own convictions and said, this is not right. We won't stand for this. They kind of wanted to make peace with people who weren't really interested in making peace, with revolutionaries. And I see that happening, I'm shocked to say, I'm dismayed to say, on what used to be strong Christian schools, that they're

uncomfortable. They don't know. And so I think that, you know, the free market parents are saying, well, I don't want to send my kid to that school. I certainly don't want to send my kid to Yale or Harvard, even if they could get in because they'll be propagandized, you know, to hating Jews and to becoming a cultural Marxist. But I thought if I sent my kid to one of those schools, they'd be safe. And now I'm not so sure. So it is really a dramatic place where we find ourselves, Jerry.

And I don't know what to say. So that's why I'm glad that you're weighing in with the book. Well, you know, I was listening to a. conversation. We had a great Lilly-funded event with some presidents of various schools, many that you would know. And afterwards, you know President John Collagga. He just came to Indiana West End. You have an honorary doctorate from one of his former schools. You probably have several. But anyway, Dr. Collagher was asked afterwards. We'd ask him to host. Todd Rehm and I'd ask him to host. And one of the distinguished professors there from another school out West said, you know, it's too bad there's

litmus test presidents and he said what do you mean he's and she said you know making one issue determining whether someone's stang goes give me an example and she said well you know whether someone believes the same-sex marriages it could have been a number of other things so whatever your view is on that and dr kalaga stopped and he goes wait a minute a litmus test he goes if you were to say that to me to indiana westy and i'd say that's not a litmus test we have standards for a hundred years it's not a litmus test you either say that to me to see that's signed a declaration of your faith or you didn't. So it's not a litmus test. It's whether the faculty member is being truthful when they signed the agreement to teach at the university.

And so that's kind of, I mean, it's a tough stance. If you're spending many, many, many, thousands of dollars to send your kid to college, to a Christian college, the idea that your kid would have, as his professors, people who don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, don't believe in, you know, the inerrancy of scripture. You know, you'd say, well, yeah, that's a problem. There was the whole idea that I sent them there was because I thought as a baseline, those would be the kinds of professors that they will be studying under. So, yeah, so again, this is kind of this like, you know, the language of the day.

Oh, this is a litmus test. And you think, well, where did that? I mean, again, Jerry, this is where we get into this whole idea of false unity. People are always talking about we need to be about unity. Obviously, where possible you want to be at unity, and I have myself experienced the opposite of that, where people who will, they'll cut you out because of one thing and you go, listen, we don't have to agree on that, but is that really a reason not to come on my show or to, you know, to not have, that's a discussion.

But it doesn't mean that there aren't cases where you say that that's a deal. breaker. But there are many people in Christian higher learning today who they don't see it that way. And I think that's where the free market comes in, where parents say, well, I'm, you know, I don't want to send my kid to a school like that. That's not unreasonable to me. Yeah, I agree with you. In fact, Bonhofer, that's one of the reasons we chose it too. So Bonhofer says basically to the institutions of his day, which, and I define institution as a systematic response to a recurring need. And what he's saying to those places delivering what's supposed to be biblical education, he's saying the same thing. He's saying, you need to start with the end in mind.

You need to start with the focus on discipleship of students, no matter what else you're doing, if you don't like Gideon, he has a sermon on Gideon as well, he said, if you don't have a line from Gideon to the cross, you're missing it. If you don't have a line to the resurrection in the end when you're starting a student in your school. After all, the Queen of the Science is theology. And so that's where Bonofer starts. And he's lecturing those schools. And you know this literature, actually, you know, you know this literature very well with your book. And so that's really what we're at with this book. We say you need to start, Harrowa says this too, in debating moral education. I wrote it in books and culture years ago. Harlow says, wait a minute, Christian colleges, before you do anything else, you need to be about

redounding the glory of God back to him. No matter what else you do as a school, if you're not doing that, why do you send your kids there? And so there are a, there's a great cadre of schools doing that. Unfortunately, too many of them have slipped. And I firmly agree with you on that. Eric, we try to give examples through history of the different points that we bring out based on Bonhofer and his series of sermons.

And, you know, we hope we've given people examples. And on that first one about mission, we use St. Benedict in the rule. I mean, that was new to the time and says, look, Benedict's looking at these monasteries and they're dead. I mean, there are people jumping all over. And he did one thing in the St. Benedict's rule of 5th century. He said, or 6th century, he said, one community. When you come into the priesthood, you're committed to that community for life. Now, that's a little difficult today, but I'm here.

I'm sitting right here, Eric, because I graduated from the school down the road here. And when I came to a place of my career, I could live anywhere. I wanted to come back here to the community where I started. Forgive me, we're going to a break. I'm talking to Dr. Jerry Pantingale. The new book is called The Anxious Middle. We'll be right back. Tell me why Relief Factor is so successful at lowering or eliminating pain.

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Use discount code Eric or balance of nature.com. Welcome back. I'm talking to Jerry, Dr. Jerry Pattengale, who has co-authored a new book called The Anxious Middle which uses Dietrich Bonhofer really as a model to help Christian universities find a way forward. You were just referring to where you are. What university were you just alluding to, Jerry? Indiana Wesleyan University has stayed the course, still conservative,

still you sign a statement of faith, still believes in the authority of scripture, still believes in Orthodox Christianity. So, you know, there are a number of schools like that. Taylor has really, which is 15 minutes away, we have the Christian corridor here near us of colleges, and they have tried to retrench and to take back, you know, their strong orthodox leanings as well. And what we try to do is to say, look, if you're going to follow Bonhofer, what are some examples you can look at in doing that? I mentioned Brother in the Common Life, or I mentioned earlier St. Benedict, but you also have Brother of the Common Life when you're talking about a new imagination for, you know, how your school can be more effective.

And, you know, Brother of the Common Life, when it started, you know, you had people like Erasmus come out of the Brother in the Common Life. You know, you had Thomas Acempus. But when Grute started that, all he was doing is saying, we need to look at a different way to, you know, involve more people in grounding them in scripture because something's not as solid, something's not as effective. And so, you know, I think colleges today, a Christian colleges need to say, what is it we can do to keep them grounded and have some imagination? Because he talks about that in his sermon and a series of sermons. And so, you know, we try to give them an example of that. We also looked at collaboration, which is the hardest thing for me in all of this with Christian

higher ed. I've been in a long time, Eric, is trying to get people to work together. I think the CCCU has done a lot of good things trying to do that. Other organizations have started up because they wanted to be even more conservative. And so, you know, we look at cathedral schools and say, what did they do? They came out and they said, what are we going to do in these cathedrals to help reach the needs of the community. And so the colleges, I think today, Christian colleges are going to need to try to do that. And, you know, Charlemagne forward with this cathedral. Charlemagne basically ordered the 8th century. He said, look, you need to help the community. What are you doing to help our needs? So if you're going to do this as a Christian institution,

you need to link that to the needs of the kingdom, in that case, with a small K. Go ahead. No, I'm just going to say, you know, you mentioned the CCCU. Just a few years ago, I would have thought of them as rock solid. But then in the last few years, they've done a number of things that just make me realize, wow, I can't, I don't know that I would want to be affiliated with the CCCU. That's shocking to me, that all these places that we kind of thought of as, you know, on board here have just have drifted. In other words, you just open the door to, you know, we call it woke ideology. effectively sums it up, but it's cultural Marxism. It's not biblical. That's the bottom line

is it's not biblical. And it's always fascinating to me how people in the academy who ought to know better somehow allow themselves to serve the zeitgeist more than the Heiliggegeist and get very confused and drift. And then they wonder why they're in battle. They wonder why parents are saying, I don't want my kid going to that school. It's kind of basic. I mean, there are lots of kids. I go around the country, and I'm constantly meeting homeschool kids. And they are just so impressive.

And there are, I don't know how many, like a million, looking for a solid Christian university education. They don't want to undo what they have been doing, you know, for K through 12. they don't want that undone. And they're looking for solid Christian colleges. You talk about a business model. They're looking for that. And a lot of the places that would have been solid 10 years ago, they don't know what

they're going to get there. And so I think a lot of them are electing not to go to college, which frankly would be my advice at this point. Yeah, I agree. I think that a lot of colleges got caught in trying to have a conversation. And in trying to have a conversation with these different groups, groups that were putting pressure on them from the liberal side, that very conversation caused them slippage.

And now there's a real effort to try to rein those kind of conversations in. I can't speak for all those other schools. I could just say at Indiana Wesleyan and Taylor, there's been a concerted effort to say, look, we want to be ironic, we want to be collaborative, but we also want to be true to where we're at. You know, there's 42, the book, there's 42 professional Christian associations right now. There's 10 Christian institutes in the evangelical tradition. And so there's these effort to try to collaborate with a lot of them. And so it's interesting if you raise the hood on those organizations, what are they actually doing? And I go back to Harawas when, when I was,

who is that? Stanley Harawas. Oh, Stanley Howerwis. I didn't understand. understand what he said earlier. Yeah. Yeah. When he was looking, and I quoted him earlier, it really made me stop and say, is that really the first thing we're doing is trying to teach people more about God? When I went to college, Eric, the first lecture I went to, I tried to drop after that lecture. I tried to get out of school. I was a brand new Christian. I thought they were wacko. But you know what? To this day, I can remember the lecture. And the second lecture changed my life, he's the lecture for a group called YWAM, and he was their main worldview lecture. And I didn't know the difference to the Old New Testament.

All I know is here's a guy who's talking about all these presuppositional analysis and everything. And then he stops and he goes, but the ultimate question, my friend, is theological. It's about Jesus. I'm sorry. We're going to a break. Yeah. If you, uh, yeah, we'll be right back talking to Dr. Jerry Patton. Hey, this is Eric Metaxus.

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Go to mypillow.com. Use promo code Eric. Again, mypillow.com. Use promo code Eric. Remember, you get free shipping on your entire order. You can call 800-9783057. 8057. Use promo code Eric. Talking to Dr. Jerry Paddengel. Jerry, you were just talking about a lecture. You said a second lecture that when you were a young man just new at Indiana Wesleyan. So keep going. Yeah. So I saw this professor up front.

He had a tie as big as New Jersey. He had a comb over. You know, it's like, who is this guy? Do all Christians look like this? And he starts lecturing and he gives this worldview lecture. His name is Dr. Glenn Martin. And he finally said, but the ultimate question. is not philosophical, it's theological.

Am I who I am because of who God is, or is God who God is because of who I am? I mean, you know, we're talking about Bonhofer. Boy, that really resonates. And then he went on to say, there's a lot of issues, there's a lot of questions. I can't answer. There's a lot of things. And just like Bonhofer, when Bonhofer watched that movie, it changes life. You know, when, you know, he saw the, it was all quiet on the Western Front.

Was that the movie it changes? Yeah, in 1930, yeah, people have read my book. They can just flip right to the page. but he had an experience when he came to New York in 1930, 31. He watched All Quiet on the Western Front, and the movie changed his life. It was a moment that it changed his life. It did. And, you know, Dr. Martin said, it's funny.

Eric, I literally could go to the board on the other end of my office and write the entire lecture 50 years later. But he said this. He quoted first currency as 13. I didn't know what that was. But he read it. He goes, now we see through the glass darkly. Then we shall see face to face. And then this little professor who's gone now, I actually wear his robe when I, at graduation, his widow gave me his robe to wear.

He said this. He goes, remember this and never forget it, my friend, never forget it. He goes, we do see through the glass. We see enough to know the truth. He said, we don't understand everything, but God gives us enough the answers. And that's what Bonhofer was saying. And he said, look, you need to teach all the students that the creation and created order, everything they're studying, is against the cross. It's only understandable with the cross in mind and where we're headed. And we don't understand all that things. One of the things about your book that I liked, I did not know that when Bonhofer first came to the United States, I think it's 1930.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But his brother had written back when he's talking about the Abyssinian Church and the fact that he couldn't take one of the members to a restaurant. His brother just said, man, that's worse than what's happening here. They think what we're doing with the Jews here is a joke because it's not nearly that bad. Little do they know. Yeah, no, that's a moment. It's an amazing thing. There's a Bonhofer film coming out in November, which is spectacular.

And I think there's a line in there. You know, it's not directly based on my book, but of course, this is history. He's got nothing to do with my book. But this moment in Bonhofer's life where they're saying, yeah, the racism in America, which was real in 1930, right? They're saying it's so good we don't have anything like this in Germany. And of course, this is moments before the Nazis start viciously persecuting the Jews. So the fact that even Bonhofer could have a blind spot.

And this is why we have to have grace for people who don't get it. There's a lot of people in the Christian church who dramatically don't get it. Some of them will get it. Some of them will never get it. But to understand that, and again, it gets to the title of your book, The Anxious Middle, where we are. Barnhofer always understood that we really are, we have to be awake to the reality of God in the midst of this life.

And that makes us profoundly countercultural. It will make us lose friends because friends want to, they want to be popular. They don't want to go along with that. So the fact that you encountered this as a freshman 50 years ago at Indiana Wesley. And, you know, that's what parents are looking for when they send their kids off to Christian schools. You know, it brought to my – in our fourth chapter, I talked briefly about the Shao Mangaldi. I don't know if you know Vashow. Of course I do, yes.

Yeah, he's got the book, the book that changed your world. And he was on a couple talk shows. and I'm in touch with him now about some other things. But I like his book. I've cited it in Washington Post, other places. But he had a book he brought to me. It's not, I think it's just a draft. But he talks about the revolutions in education,

the four revolutions of education. And in that book, he brought up something, which is kind of interesting. He talks about the printing press. In the printing press, he said, you know, it starts in 1454, revolutionize the world, the biggest revolution. But he said, you notice that the printing press didn't show up in university towns for 100 years,

only two or three towns for 100 years. He said, that's because the professors were working with the current printers and getting paid to be consultants for those printers. And he said it interrupted the status quo. And I saw that. I go, that's really insightful. That's really insightful because it's just a reminder. that the status quo is tough to break.

And as we're looking at fresh ways to do it, Vachal calls for the Fourth Revolution, by the way. He says in his book that it's going to be, instead of going to the cathedral schools, instead of going out to these institutions, it's going to be the, you know, going to the churches for education. So, like your host.

I didn't realize this is the last segment of this conversation. So let's sum up what we can in the 90 seconds we have left. The book is the anxious. middle, just some final thoughts for my audience? Yeah, I would just say that wherever your school, state school or private school, Bonhofer gives us a lot to chew on. And he's basically saying, whatever you study, study with God's creation in the end game and mind that the Lord's triumphant and he's going to return. And everything points to that. There's a reason that the medieval church put theology as the

Queen of the Sciences as the main subject. And you don't expect secular universities to do that. They've really drifted off to the dark side, but you do expect Christian universities to do that. And it's not unreasonable for parents to expect Christian universities to do that, to be concerned with discipling their kids. And, you know, the idea that that's somehow separate from whatever, enlightenment, a rationalist project that they're cooking up.

No, they shouldn't be involved in this Enlightenment rationalist project. They should be about making disciples in the context of the university. So I love that term. I learned it from my late friend John Rankin. He talked about theology was the queen of the sciences, that everything falls under the basic ideas of what the Bible says. Jesus is truth. God is the inventor of reality.

And there's no reason that we shouldn't proclaim that, declare it, and live it out in our lives, but especially in the Christian universities. Jerry Patengel, thanks for being my guest, folks. The book is The Anxious Middle. Thank you, Jerry. You bet. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Robert Netsley right now, who is with Inspire Investing.

Robert, I can't help but get excited about what you've created, an opportunity for people to find out if their money is funding. wicked things, if they have money in a 401k or retirement fund, whatever it is, that is invested in companies that are doing evil things, that is promoting pornography, promoting abortion, promoting any number of things or ideologies with your money, folks. So Robert Nestle has created something where you can get a free report that tells you where your money is and they will help you get your money into companies that are doing good things. you have to go to inspireadvisors.com slash Eric.

Inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. You get a free report. But this is something I, you know, Robert, I guess it just gives me hope that it's possible to turn things around in America. Because when I think of how much money people have invested out there, if they would understand what's going on and shift that money to good stuff, it's just huge. It's just absolutely monstrous. Like what is.

It's enormous. It's enormous. And we are seeing. of fruit from that labor. It's remarkable. It doesn't have to even be trillions of dollars to change things. I've been on the phone, you know, in recent weeks, you know, with investor relations and CFOs and whatnot. We regularly engage with companies that we invest in or are like to invest in or kind of just speaking biblical truth, the corporate power. And, you know, one of the things we hear is often that, number one, these people have never heard, they tell us they've never heard from a

faith-based investor before. They've been doing their job for 20, 30 years. You know, executive, major organizations never heard from a faith-based investor. So number one, they need to hear our voice. Number two, they're thankful to hear it. Even in some of these sort of, you know, woke businesses, you think that this don't care. There are people in those businesses of influence that actually do care about what we have to say and oftentimes have enough influence to change things. So, for instance, Costco stopped giving money to gay pride parades. Chevron stopped giving money to Planned Parenthood. There's a laundering list of other organizations that have changed things. That is unbelievable.

Robert Nelson, that is unbelievable. It is so wonderful. I want to tell people, folks, what you do and don't do, you can change the world if you take an interest in this. When I hear that a company like Costco would stop giving money to something like that or Chevron, these are huge, huge companies. And you shop there, your money may be invested there. When we get involved in these things, we can change the world. So I want to say the action point is go to invest. I'm sorry, inspireadvisors.com slash Eric.

Inspireadvisors.com slash Eric. You'll get a free report that will help you figure this out. And I know, Robert, that you guys will help people if they want to transition to invest in companies that believe in their values. but this is a gigantic thing that we have. I mean, it's to me scandalous when we have power and we don't use that power. It's like when I say, I'm not going to vote, I'm not going to do this, I'm not going to do that. When you don't do those things, people who don't share your values, who share opposite,

who have opposite values, they're going to prevail. So I just want to say to you, Robert, thank you for taking this on because it is game. changing. Like you said, it's a movement. The more people that do this, it's an amazing thing when we think of the money that is out there, that many people of faith with traditional values have invested in woke companies. Ladies and gentlemen, you've got to do something about it. You've just got to do something about it. This is like a mandate that we've got to live our faith out in every sphere and where your money is, that's a big deal. So please go to inspire. advisors.com slash Eric. This is a free report, inspireadvisors.com slash Eric.

Robert Natsley, thank you. Pleasure. Thank you, Eric.