The Eric Metaxas Show - Jim Denison

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Jim Denison has a new book that comes with an ominous warning, "The Coming Tsunami: Why Christians Are Labeled Intolerant, Irrelevant, Oppressive, and Dangerous -- and How We Can Turn the Tide." 

Folks, welcome to the Eric Metaxus show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m. Investments.com. That's legacy pm. Investments.com. Taxis show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. I'm holding in my hand a book, but I hold a lot of books in my hands. This one, however, has a disturbing title. It's called The Coming Tsunami, Why Christians, are labeled intolerant, irrelevant, oppressive, and dangerous, and how we can turn the tide. Normally, I would dismiss a book like this, but then I realize it's written by somebody that I actually like, and I would love to talk to him about this, because there's some people that have these views,

and they say, oh, it's all going to hell, and let's just hide in our caves. And then there are people that actually think more deeply about this. the author of this book is one of them. My friend, Dr. Jim Denison is my guest. Jim, welcome. Eric, I'm glad to be on with you today. Thanks for the privilege of the conversation, and I'm glad you didn't just dismiss the book,

as you obviously could have, and I would have as well had I received it in the mail also. Well, because a lot of people have this view, and they have a bad take on it, because I know you, I just get cheered up just by talking to you, so even talking about something like this. So, yeah, what, first of all, talk us through how you get to that title. Yeah, you bet.

So a tsunami is a tidal wave you can see caused by underwater forces you can't see. Usually earthquakes, but 80% of the time underwater earthquakes can be an underwater volcano, as we saw recently in the South Pacific. It could be a mudslide, a meteor. Well, I'm claiming that there's a rising tide of opposition, cultural opposition in America that Christians have not seen in American history. but it's always too soon to give up on God. There are ways to turn this tide.

They're hopeful, redemptive things we can do if we know why this is happening. So for underwater earthquakes that are causing the tsunami we can see, the book explains what each of those are and explains redemptive ways that we can be used to make a difference before it's too late. Well, it says on the back of the book I thought I should read this that it says, number one, the rise of a post-truth culture, the expansion of the sexual revolution, that's an understatement, the attraction of critical theory and the advance of secular religion. These are the things, and I think you are spot on. I mean, most people, and I say this over and over again, just to help people understand, you're sane, okay? If you think what's happening

in the culture sexually, and with regard to, you know, this constant plan, you know, this constant plaint, this drumbeat about systemic racism. Most people know this is crazy talk. If you live in the real world and you face real problems, there are crazy people who don't live in the real world. And they want to talk about, you know, how there's 72 genders or whatever. And I think a lot of times the real problem that Christians have is that they're over gracious even in just I mean, I think a common sense response to some of this stuff is like, that's nuts. what do you want for dinner? But sometimes people really get into this stuff,

and sometimes you have to get into it. But, I mean, let's start with the madness that's been unleashed, you know, with regard to sexuality and the human person. I mean, I think everybody knows there's two genders. Everybody knows that, but we're forced to pretend that we don't know that. And now you have a swimmer like Leah Thomas. When this person was a male, she was ranked 400. he was ranked 460 second as a swimmer.

Now transitions to a female and is ranked number one. Isn't that amazing? Just by living into his own truth and made him an incredible swimmer. Isn't that beautiful? If only we could cast off our shackles of what people are telling us to believe about ourselves, just be free we would all float to the top. I mean, I have to joke around, Jim, because the world is allowing this. And can you imagine that adults in the swimming world are allowing this big dude to crush actual female swimmers and to get away with it?

That's how crazy things are. And call it tolerance. Still just as tall as he was. Still the same hand size. Still the same pelvic width. Still the same lung capacity. Still all these inherent advantages males have over females in swimming. None of that changes with testosterone and estrogen treatments.

none of that changes them. So here's the way it looks to me, Eric, that would kind of make some sense. Let's say I'm 18 years old as a male, but I want to be eight. Now I want to wrestle against eight-year-olds as an 18-year-old. What parent of an eight-year-old is going to let me in the ring with their eight-year-old, but if I claim to be eight years old, the culture says, well, then I get to go be eight years old. We all see that as insane. Well, that's where we are now in the context of sexual orientation, gender identity, and all the ramifications, and the consequences. Well, doesn't it come to an issue of courage?

In other words, it seems to me that if enough people have the courage to speak against this, to say this is preposterous, I'm not going to allow my daughter to compete with a dude. It's not going to happen. But people seem to be cowed into silence. I always think of Nazi Germany that in the 30s, you know, way before the death camps and before any of that stuff, people went along with these kinds of things just because they said, well, I don't want to be one sticking my neck out. That's part of the culture of America. Let's all be nice. Let's all be tolerant. And in the course of being tolerant and nice, you are unleashing evils on the world.

So in a sense, folks like you and me need to bring that up, that you can't, I mean, the famous quote, it's often attributed to Bonhofer, but I don't believe he said it. But the quote is, silence in the face of evil is itself evil. Not to speak, is to speak, not to act, is to act. God will not hold us guiltless. If you keep your mouth shut, you are part. part of the problem. You need to know that, folks, that if you don't do something, you're part of the problem. Don't complain because you're actually helping the problem to exist. That's the first place I go. Absolutely so. And that's where I, as a believer, really struggle. The Bible says to speak the truth in love. We focused on the love so much we've ignored the truth part. Well, I'm not

loving you if I don't speak truth to you. Armabembach used to tell their kids, I love you enough to let you hate me. I have to speak truth in this culture. Irma Bombback. I didn't think we'd be talking about Irma Bomback. I love you, and say it again. I love you enough to let you hate me. Isn't that just beautiful? That's every parent knows.

That's right. That is diamond truth right there. I love you enough to let you hate me. Wow. In a culture of everybody wanting to be loved, that's not going to work. You have to understand that God requires that of us. I mean, I think that's the most preposterous thing, the expansion of the sexual revolution to include whatever.

I mean, before you know it, I don't know what we're going to be talking about. But the attraction of critical theory, a lot of folks in the church, in the evangelical church, have bought into this. And it just horrifies me because they don't seem to understand. I guess they're thinking with their emotions, which means they're not thinking. They're being as gentle as doves and as wise. as doves. That's not biblical, right? Critical race theory is Marxist. It denies the existence of God. You don't need to get way past that. I mean, the whole view of critical race theory, it appeals to

your emotions in a very dishonest way. It says, don't you feel guilty? Haven't you ever been racist? Haven't you ever been a victim of racism? Come on. As though that's the most important thing in the world, as though that's the central issue of our time when we have Uighur Muslims being murdered, by the Chinese communists. I mean, just in terms of perspective, it seems creepy. It's kind of like, look over here, look over here, don't look over here. That seems to be where we are with critical theory. Well, I'm glad you brought up the fact that it is a Marxist construct.

That sounds majority, but it's just a fact. In the 20s and 30s in Germany at the Frankfurt School, Max Horkeheimer, and others, we're coining the phrase critical theory. It says culture is experienced through classes. You have majority classes, minority classes. You got to be the majority by oppressing the minority by definition. So if you happen to be white, you got to your place of supremacy by oppressing a racial minority. It could be a gender minority, could be whatever.

You are therefore absolved of any responsibility if you're in the minority, and you are completely responsible if you're in the majority. The Bible says the soul that sins it shall die. The Bible says the son's not responsible for the sins of his parent, but this Marxist's construct has in the 70s, it became critical race theory, is a legal construct initially. Now, as you say, it's in the academy, it's on the coast, it's really become pervasive in the culture, and it's a move away from the very agency that our country was founded on. And if you don't stand against it, folks, you're part of the problem. I'm thrilled to be talking to my friend, Dr. Jim Denison.

The book is The Coming Tsunami. We'll be right back. Hey, folks, I've got to tell you a secret about relief factor that the father, son, owners, Pete and Seth Talbot, have never made a big deal about, but I think it is a big deal. I really do. They sell the three-week quick start pack for just 1995 to anyone struggling from pain like neck, shoulder, back, hip, or knee pain, 1995, about a dollar a day. But what they haven't broadcasted much is that every time they sell a three-week quick start, they lose money. In fact, they don't even break even until about four to five months after if you keep ordering it. Friends,

that's huge. People don't keep ordering relief factor month after month if it doesn't work. So, yes, Pete and Seth are literally on a mission to help as many people as possible. deal with their pain. They really do put their money where their mouths are. So if you're in pain from exercise or even just getting older, or to the three-week quick start for 1995, let's see if we can get you at a pain too. Go to relieffactor.com. Relieffactor.com or call 800-500-384-800-50-584. Relieffactor.com. I use it. It works. Hey, folks, if you could make money off of abortion or pornography, would you do it? I hope the answer is no. But I want to tell you, Robert Netsley, the founder of Inspire,

Insight.com, he was the president of his local pro-life pregnancy center when he discovered that he owned investments in three companies manufacturing abortion drugs. Well, God helped him to see that he was making money from abortion, pornography, LGBT activism, and the list goes on. And that's why he created Inspireinsight.com. Inspireinsight.com gives you instant access to biblical values data on over 23,000 stocks, mutual funds, and ETFs, so you can invest to the glory of God. You need to go to InspireInsight.com today and screen your 401Ks, IRAs, and other investment accounts. I did, and I was shocked. Now I'm able to clean out the junk and invest in companies actually doing good things.

Go to inspireinsight.com today and register for free. That's inspireinsight.com. Go there. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Jim Denison. Dr. Jim Denison. of the Denison Forum, did I say Denison? Denison Forum, who is someone I've followed for years and admired.

He has a book out, The Coming Sonami, why Christians are labeled intolerant, irrelevant, oppressive, and dangerous, just like Jesus, oppressive, irrelevant, intolerant, and how we can turn the tide. So Dr. Jim Denison, you were just talking about critical race theory. This is one of these ways, one of the bludgeon's being used against people of faith, and it's not just Christians, it's really anybody with common sense and a brain.

Critical race theory is by definition Marxist, by definition anti-God. The very premises of critical race theory, critical theory, are antithetical to a biblical view. There are many Christians that either they don't get that or they don't care. I'm not sure what they're thinking, but we have many Christians that maybe just out of generic,

generic white guilt. You know, they kind of have this idea that, well, I'm guilty, I'm a sinner, and they let that drown them. They just have nothing to say. They're afraid to oppose lies because they say, because I'm a worm. I have no value in God's eyes. And I just think that's not biblical. Absolutely right.

I mean, we start with Genesis 1, right, that all of us are created in the image and likeness of God. Go to the Declaration of Independence. We hold these truths to be self-evident. that all men are created equal. That's really the foundation of the American experiment. It's not just a pure democracy, majority always over minority.

There are bills of rights, there are representations and protections for minorities. But there's a worldview here that is not Marxist. There's a worldview that says, we're not going to live in classes. If we were, we could never have revolted from the King of England. We're going to live as individuals,

believing individuals to have intrinsic, sacred value. And that's for Christians. Back in the 60s, we're on the forefront of the civil rights movement. on the forefront of fighting against Jim Crow laws and fighting against supremacy and all of that ought to be at the forefront of that. But critical theory says because Christians are a majority were by definition oppressors, by definition. And that's what we've got to understand. The culture is claiming against us and have to speak against that, speaking the truth and love.

And the irony, again, is that it is itself racist. I mean, I think we can just observe that all of these kinds of discussions, have made the country dramatically more racially divided. Again, I think people with common sense see that. It's like this isn't really leading to anything good. It kind of reminds me of the promise of communists, right, of Stalinists, that if you just suck it up for a few more years, we're getting to the promised land.

Well, the reality is that's not true. They're talking about building a Tower of Babel, and more people have to die, more people have to suffer. you're not any nearer to reaching heaven than you were when you started. It's a lie, and you have to call it a lie. Marxist, utopianist schemes cannot work, do not work. But you really do see this, I think, most dramatically with critical race theory. It has made the black people I know more conscious of the fact that they're black.

It's made white people more conscious of the fact that they're white. It's done something to make a lot. us focus on the color of our skin when the goal of Dr. King and others who were Christians was to say, no, we've got to get beyond that. We've got to look at the content of our character. It really seems to me kind of obviously to be working against itself. But I guess my question to you is, how do you suppose that so many Christians, serious evangelicals in particular, have swallowed this, have somehow horrifyingly bought this and are a part of what the force is pushing it along. That, to me, is, you know, the worst part of it. Yeah, right. And I agree with you.

I think there are five things inside this to just mention as quickly as I can. The first is the fact that systemic racism does exist in the culture. A black person is twice as likely to be put to death for killing a white person as a white person is for killing a black person. Black people served 20% longer terms. The 38% more likely to be sentenced to death for the same crime as white people. There was a survey where African-American sounding names had to send 50% more resumes than white-sounding names to get a call. There's studies. There's evidence that we still are not where we want to be.

We're certainly not where we were, but we need to make progress. And we sense that. We know that. We know we want to make progress as Christians. We want to stand in the front of this. On a second level, I have to admit to the possibility of racism in my own heart. I want friends to help me at that space. On a third level, I want to make reparations for personal harm where I've done personal harm.

Where we get in trouble, though, is the fourth, which is cultural reparations, and the fifth, which is historic reparations, going back to 1619 and all of that. That's where we're in a Marxist world that is in no sense biblical. And I'm afraid Christians are confusing the first three with the last two. Because I want there not to be racism in the culture, because I want there to be reform where reforms necessary. because I'm a sinner and know I'm a sinner, I therefore have to go along with cultural and historical reparations and I have to move in a Marxist direction because I care about individuals. That's where I think the deception's coming in, Eric, that's where we're moving in a direction that is in every way kind of productive to the culture and certainly antithetical to the gospel.

I mean, we don't have the time on the show, but I would even push back on the idea that systemic racism is a fact. because I would argue that the definition of that is confusing. We have always had sin in not just an American life, everywhere in the world. There's sin. If you are attractive, people will respond to you differently than they will to somebody less attractive. If you're tall, they respond to you somebody. In other words, these are the kinds of things that if you make it your thing, this is our thing,

that people are treating attractive people, and we have to talk about this, We have to have forums about this. We have to talk about this in our churches. I think by talking about it, you don't help. And I actually think you make it worse. Because unless you're an idiot, you know that you're a sinner and that you judge people wrongly and you have to work on that constantly. And somehow the church, I believe, has bought into this lie that we've got to talk about this. This is the most important thing.

And I think to myself, you care about racism, really? So then you should care that Uyghur Muslims are being more. murdered for their organs by the Chinese communists who are atheists and who are doing this to them because they want to cling to their ethnic and religious identity and the Chinese communists say, no, we don't believe in liberty. Now, if the churches would get behind that, would say that we are serious about real racism and we're going to do everything we can. We're going to boycott companies that are doing business with China that are turning a blind eye to this, whether it's the NBA or We're going to take this seriously.

I then think people would say, you know, those people in the church, they really do care about strangers that look different than they do. That's beautiful. That's kind of amazing. But we have folks, even like Campus Crusade, crew and whatever, and they're acting like this is the issue that somebody got their feelings hurt and they walk around with this. And it kind of reminds me if somebody is feeling self-pity, I'm. I feel like I want to say to them, hey, God loves you. Don't think about what that idiot said to you or what that guy who didn't hire you because he's a racist. Don't think about that jerk.

Pray for him and God wants to bless you. It's a completely different view because this is kind of, I guess what I've noticed, Jim, is that sometimes we're over-scrupulous. And we say, yes, we're guilty, we're guilty. And it's like, we're guilty. But the enemy wants to bludgeon us with our guilt. wants to free us from our guilt. Anyway, I didn't mean to go off so much on that. There's so much else in here that even the idea that Christians are labeled intolerant,

irrelevant, oppressive, and dangerous. We know that there are always going to be people who are those things. But how much do we want to respond to that? Do I really want to spend my time arguing with people who already think I'm a jerk? I don't know. Yeah, that's the line of the road. You know, at the end of the day, it really is. I mean, I understand the Benedict Option, Roderio, the idea,

look, pay attention to your family first. Pay attention to your kids first here. Don't worry about the culture until you worry about your family. And there's a real truth inside that, you know, inside your own school, inside what your kids are being taught, inside all of that space as well. But Christians are also called to be salt and light. Salt's no good in the salt chaker.

Light's no good under the bushel basket. I take people to Israel six or seven times a year. Love going to Israel. You've got water flows into the Sea of Galilee. Water flows out. Water flows into the Dead Sea. Water doesn't flow out. It evaporates.

That's why it's called the dead sea. Nothing can live in it. So there's a sense in which the Christian move is to breathe out and breathe in, to give to receive, to be incarnational, to go and make disciples of all nations. So the book encourages us to look for redemptive, practical ways to speak the truth and love, to be people of civility, to use your influence, to manifest faithful presence, and to see yourself as a missionary to this culture for such a time as this. I'm convinced, Derek, it's not too late for God to use us toward the very very,

kind of outcome you're describing where we can make this kind of practical difference in the culture? I have to say I agree with you. I think we're in a terrible battle, but I think it's waking a lot of people up and making us realize we've sort of had it too good. We've taken it for granted. The freedoms that we've had, the fact that we have become mostly post-racial, I believe, I don't know if I'm getting this right, but I believe we elected a black president. Maybe it was just one term. Actually, no. Albin says there's two terms. We have done things in this country. We ought to be on our feet cheering how much progress we have made. And if you do that, then we can talk about the other stuff. But if you're unwilling to do that, something tells me you have an agenda. We'll be right

back talking to the author of The Coming Tsunami, Dr. Jim Denison. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Biden administration has caused a financial crisis and they have no clue how to fix it. Oil prices have skyrocketed, and when oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation,

that's the last thing we need. Our economy is in trouble, and you need to take steps to protect yourself. If all your money is tied up in stocks, bonds, and traditional markets, you are vulnerable. Gold is one of the best ways to protect your retirement. No matter what happens, you own your gold.

is real, it is physical, it's always been valuable since the dawn of time. Legacy Precious Metals is the company I trust for investing in gold. They can help you roll your retirement account into a gold-backed IRA where you still own the physical gold. They can also ship gold and precious metals safely and securely to your house. Call Legacy at 866-528-1903 or visit them online at LegacyPMinvestments.com. Folks, welcome back at Theerickmataxas show. I will be playing the role of Eric Metaxus for the remainder of the show. I apologize on the best we could do under the circumstances. But we have a great guest, Dr. Jim Denison. He's the author of a book,

The Coming Tsunami, why Christians are labeled intolerant, irrelevant, oppressive, and dangerous, and how we can turn the tide. Jim, I love the last part of that because we're living in crazy times, but you and I know that we're supposed to look to God in the midst of the madness. We're supposed to rejoice in him always. We're supposed to be anxious for nothing to do what we can. And there's a lot we can do. I was saying earlier, I think a lot of people are waking up. Things have gotten so crazy that it's causing people to wake up.

I think the persecution of Christians, genuine persecution, you know, not along the lines of what we've seen historically, but the idea that people are trying to demonize us for our biblical views. if I have a biblical view of sexuality, people say, that's unacceptable, that's intolerant. And I want to say, it's not unacceptable, it's not intolerant, it's my view. Billions of people around the world share this view. Why are you demonizing me? Don't you believe in religious liberty? And the answer in many cases is no.

These people don't believe in religious liberty. They don't believe in most of what the founders gave us in the Constitution. Let's talk about that issue of religious liberty. How is it possible, for example, at so many in corporate America, and in churches across America seem not to even understand how vital religious liberty is. That's a great question. The so-called Equality Act as an example of exactly what you're talking about. It amends the 1964 Civil Rights Act to prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity. However, it also prohibits any appeal to the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

So here's what that means in practice, Eric. Let's say I'm pastor of a church. Let's say we have a biblical code of morality for our staff. Let's say one of the staff marries somebody of the same sex. Let's say that we dismiss them because they violated our code. The Equality Act is a law. Now, let's say. They file a lawsuit, judge issues an injunction. If I don't obey the injunction, I go to jail.

Well, the reason that's supported by the House twice, the reason 400 companies have signed on for it is because they genuinely believe that my unwillingness to do a same-sex wedding is exactly the same thing as if I wouldn't do a black wedding. wedding or an Hispanic wedding. They see me as being just as bigoted and discriminatory as if I were a KKK member, one of the senators, when they were discussing the Equality Act last year, made that exact illusion. So they're claiming we have no right to First Amendment religious liberty protections

because we're asking for the right not only to be wrong, but to be dangerous. We're like KKK, claiming religious freedom exemptions to bring crosses and yards. That's what it's come to. That's how dangerous we are in the society. Do you remember which senator that was? Dick Durbin. Dick Durbin. Okay, so folks. Himself a Catholic believer.

Okay, so yeah, Catholic. It's utterly meaningless, you know, like Joe Biden is a good Catholic. Honestly, folks, if you don't get angry about this and say this is wrong, this is an American, it's wrong on every level, I just have to wonder how you could think you're not part of the problem. This is horrifying what's happening, and we all have to get serious about this. If somebody doesn't understand the issues that we're talking about and is letting it happen and is letting biblical people be demonized, and by the way, biblical people, every single Muslim, every single serious Jew or Christian of any kind disagrees with this, and you have a tiny group of nuts, ideologues, saying, we're going to wipe you.

out. We're going to use the power we have to shut you down to make it impossible for you to do business, to function. It's the antithesis of what our forefathers died for, and many Christians are complicit in this. That's the most amazing thing to me is that many Christians, ministries, people that I would have said, these are my brothers and sisters in Christ, they don't get this, and they're kind of emotionally going along with this. That's the toughest part. Yeah, and that's so frustrating, isn't it? It's really that first earthquake, the denial of truth. Now we're in a post-truth culture where you have your truth and I have my truth. And so many Christians, so many denominations have gone there. The Bible becomes a diary of religious experience.

I actually heard a bishop once say, I know that Paul forbade same-sex relations, but we now know that Paul was a homophobe. Heard a bishop say that. We're having the entire denominations. We're having churches that are deciding either the Bible is wrong or we've been wrong for 20 centuries. or in Judaism for 40 centuries and how we're interpreting the Bible. And so we've got this rising thing that's being used against us. The other side saying, well, look at you crazy evangelicals, whoever you are. You've got Christians over here who are agreeing with us and disagreeing with you and see you as KKK members burning crosses and yards. And so you must be wrong because Christians are changing their minds on this as well.

Well, at the end of the day, the good news is the darker the room, the more powerful the light, the more attractive the light, the more. At the end of the day, the more necessary the light. So let's reframe this challenge as an opportunity to be sought light in a way that can make a systemic and eternal difference. We talked about this on the program last week. David French, who has always identified as an evangelical Christian, wrote an article demonizing, not just me, because I don't care if he demonized me, but anybody who has the values that I have, he basically said that we are sowing the seeds of vise. violence in our churches. Now, that is at least despicable, at least. It's worse than despicable, but it's at least objectively despicable because he is doing what the devil would love to do,

which is to demonize people of faith in such a way that you silence them completely, you make it possible to wipe them out culturally speaking, you make it impossible for them to have a voice. And we know the founders knew that if serious Christians don't have a voice in the culture, freedom will evaporate. We need that kind of faith. And we have people in our own camp, theoretically, ostensibly, making this case. David Brooks wrote an article in the New York Times, demonizing evangelicals. I didn't think I would see it this soon. We'll be right back, folks, talking to the author of The Coming Tsunami, Jim Dennis. Listen. Hey, folks. If you listen to this program, of course, you've heard me talk at infinitum about my pillow and my friend Mike Lindell. Well, Mike has just announced that you will receive one of his books and the book is next level insane. It is called What Are the Odds from Crack Addict to CEO? It's his story. You will receive it absolutely free with any purchase using the promo code Eric. Did you hear that? It would be a great.

time, by the way, to buy his warm and wonderful my slippers. For a limited time, he's offering 50% off my slippers. We all wear them in my extended family. My slippers. Check it out. 50% off. Go to MyPillowloor.com. Click on the radio listeners square and use promo code Eric. You'll also get deep discounts on all MyPellow products, including some overstock products, such as individual towels, blankets, comforters, and much more. Or call 800-978-3057. 3057. To use the promo code, Eric. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Jim Denison.

He's the author of The Coming Tsunami, why Christians are labeled intolerant, irrelevant, oppressive, and dangerous by their fellow Christians, evidently often. And how we can turn the tide. Crazy stuff. Jim, this is crazy stuff, and it's good to process it with you. You know and I know that it's one thing for people who call themselves Christians. or who pretend to be friendly to faith to say these things. But we've been hearing these things, these kinds of things,

from people like the late Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins. In my most recent book, I wrote a book called Is Atheism Dead, where I deal with this. And I am nothing less than astonished at their intellectual dishonesty, at their sloppiness. I never dreamt that these people who are smart in some ways could be so idiotic in other ways. They're saying things that a junior high school student would know is silly,

but they were allowed to get away with it. They were allowed to demonize all people of faith, as though flying planes into buildings and shouting Allah Akbar, is the same thing as sitting on the porch and churning butter with my Amish friends. They see no difference. And that's where we are not. I'm so glad you said that. That's part of why we as Christians have to.

to understand this rising opposition on a level. A lot of us don't. There really is a rising secular ideology that says religion, whatever it is, fly planes into buildings, causes 9-11s, clergy abuse scandals, spends money on buildings instead of people, heaven instead of earth. Richard Dawkins, as you know, says we've gotten rid of every God but one. I actually did a debate with Christopher Hitchens. When his book came out, God is not great. I had a book out at that same point. I actually had an appendix in my book responding to his book and all the factual errors, all the mistakes. All the stakes in the book that a first semester high school student would know better than. But I took him on a little bit about his subtitle. He says how religion poisons everything. I said, well, you know,

religion is just a category. No such thing has no ontological status. Do you use philosophy terms? Like leaves. Well, you mean oak leaves or pecan leaves? He didn't say religions. He said, religion. So I said what you're really saying there is every religion of every kind, of every manifestation across all of history, poisons everything. He told me that's exactly what I'm saying. We had the conversation prior to getting on the stage. He actually believed every religion of every manifestation poisons everything. I mean, but listen, here's the issue because you're being gracious. He was a liar.

He made a living lying. I remember when his book came out, he was on Charlie Rose. I think I write about this in my own book as atheism did. He actually, Charlie Rose said, well, what about Bonhofer? Mm-hmm. And Christopher Henson said, oh, well, Bonhofer was not at the end of his life. not really a Christian, he was really a humanist. And Charlie Rose let it go.

And there are people who believe that, people on the left that believe that Bonhoff was slid into some kind of humanistic worldview. And I thought to myself, that's a lie. Christopher Hitchens lied routinely and was allowed to get away with it. And you said that in the appendix to your book, you deal with all of these things. I mean, you don't call them lies, but that's what they are, right? I mean, because he knows what he's doing.

I mean, I think we have to be clear. Folks like that literally don't care about the truth because they don't believe there's such a thing as truth. This is the crazy thing, right? They don't believe there's such a thing as truth. So if you don't believe such a thing, there's such a thing as truth, what are you selling? At the end of the day, all truth is a means to their truth,

whatever that looks like, right? Well, it fails the logic test. To say there's not such thing as truth is to make a truth claim. It fails the practical test. If all truth is personal, individual, and subjective, does that make the Holocaust just Hitler's truth? And 9-11, just Al-Qaeda's truth. But nonetheless, when it is convenient, Eric, that's where we see it, whether it's sexual morality, whether it's gender identity, whatever it is. I have my truth, you have your truth.

DA Carson's book, The Intolerance of Tolerance points out was a day, tolerance meant you had the right to be wrong. Now tolerance means there's no such thing as wrong. And if you disagree, you're intolerant, even though by definition there should be no such thing as intolerance. And that's the nonsensical place we find ourselves today. It's funny. I just saw a film. I mean, it's an adult film, not the kind of thing you want to watch with the kids, but it's called Mr. Jones.

And it's about what happened in Russia under Stalin in the early 30s, where he brutally is, you know, not a tough enough word, satanically murdered, starved millions of Ukrainians. But the reason I bring it up is that, that in the film, Mr. Jones, it shows the complicity of the leftist journalists who they kind of believed in this utopianist idea of the communist agenda, and they were willing to turn a blind eye. Some of them really dramatically willing to turn a blind eye. The Walter Durante of the New York Times won a Pulitzer Prize for propagandizing for the,

and this is no exaggeration. And I thought to myself, at some point in the movie, one of the lead figures played by Vanessa Kirby, she was kind of on the communist side and laughed when the protagonist, Mr. Jones himself, this journalist said, I don't have an agenda, I care about truth. And she laughed. And she said, what do you mean, your truth? There are many truths. And at the end of the film, I thought it just tremendously laudable and surprising for a film in this day and age,

where she said, no, I now see that there is only one truth. That's where we are. And that's what you're, I mean, that's what the film Mr. Jones is about. And that's what you're talking about. We have to talk about this. Things have gotten crazy enough where we have to deal with this head on, that the view that there are many truths and my truth and your truth, it's intellectually very sloppy, but it's not just intellectually sloppy.

It leads to violence and harm. And if you care by human beings, if you claim to be some kind of a Christian, you have to take this seriously. And I know in the book, you do take it seriously, this issue of truth. At the end of the day, we really need to be redemptive in this space, but it starts by understanding the condition, right? If you're going to be a doctor with a patient, you start by diagnosing the condition. You're not being loving if you tell someone of the cancer they don't have cancer. If you prescribe aspirin when they need chemotherapy. And it's not just for us anymore. It's for our kids and our grandkids. I've got four grandchildren, Eric, and they're perfect. Every one of them is perfect. Inherited original sins skip them somehow. I don't know how that's possible. Didn't think it was theologically possible, but that's my story. That's my truth, right? You know? I'm thinking about them. I'm thinking about my eight-year-old granddaughter that might have to share a locker with a biological male. Might have to compete with a biological male in school, in sports, for scholarships, all of that.

I'm thinking about the abuse that's coming out of this transgender issue and all that's inside that. I'm thinking about Pride Month with Kellogg's Pride-themed cereal for kids and Nickelodeon pride-themed kids programming and drag queen story. This is so horrifying. We're going to be right back. Final segment with Dr. Jim Denison, the coming tsunami, the name of the book. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to Dr. Jim Denison. The book is The Coming Tsunami, why Christians are labeled intolerant.

irrelevant, oppressive, and dangerous. Jim Denison, you were just talking about, in part, how corporate America has, in the most cowardly fashion imaginable, exactly like the corporations in Germany under Hitler. They've basically said, tell us what you want us to do. What truth do you want us to push? How can we make more money for our stockholders? We don't care about truth. Tell us what to say. We have no values. We don't even believe in values. People who talk about values and truth are bigots. Tell us what to say. And so we have things going on. I mean, it reminds me kind of of what happened in 1968 when the students at Columbia University took over. And you had a lot of these adults who were just riddled with guilt, I guess, because of their own sins of adultery or whatever

it was. And they just said, oh, we don't want to stand up against these thugs that are taking over, destroying education here for all the middle class kids whose parents paid and whatever. We're just going to sit back and cower. That's kind of what I see in the corporate classes in America. I see it in big churches, a lot of big churches with pastors whose names we would recognize who absolutely refuse to take a heroic stand against this. And they are harming people of every race, of every gender, They're harming them because they somehow think it's safer just to tow the party line.

Yeah, tragically. So Yuval Levin has a wonderful book in which he describes the degree to which institutions used to form culture and individual values. Now institutions are platforms for personal celebrity. So now you've got these CEOs using their corporations to be more awoke because that advances their personal celebrity. They're scared to death of cancel culture. They've got young employees that have come out of. academic experiences that are themselves woke, as we're describing now, and now they see the corporation as their own platform, social media platform, all that goes inside that. And so, Christians are cowering.

I spend a lot of my time working as a consultant with CEOs and with leaders in specific areas of responsibility about how do you respond to this. What are your red lines? What are you not willing to do? What are you willing to get fired for? What are you willing to get canceled for? We wouldn't have imagined 30 years, 20 years ago we'd be having these conversations, but that's where we are now. I work as a medical ethicist with the largest not-for-profit health care system in Texas, and we talk a lot about what it means to be a Christian ministry of healing, and what will we not do?

If the Equality Act became law, one reading is we could be required to perform abortion on demand in violation of our religious beliefs. Another reading is that we could be required to perform euthanasia, physician-assisted death in violation of our religious conscience. What will we do at that point? Wouldn't have imagined it? That's where we are now. Well, Chuck Colson warned about that in the Manhattan Declaration, Robbie George at Princeton and Timothy George at Beeson. They signed on. I was a part of that. He saw this coming that if Christians don't stand against this,

but not enough Christians were willing to stand against it at the time. They kind of act like, oh, it's down the road and you're being incendiary. Here we are. basically. And I believe, and I think you do too, that enough people are finally waking up. But boy, if we don't fight with everything we have, we deserve to lose all of these blessings. Ladies and gentlemen, the book is The Coming Tsunami. Dr. Jim Denison has been my guest. Jim, God bless you. Thank you again. Privileged to be on with you today, Eric. God bless.

Hey, folks, you hear me talk about food for the poor. They're a tremendous organization. We've vetted them, we work with them. They feed hungry and malnourished kids in the third world in this hemisphere in Caribbean and Latin American countries. And we want to exhort you right now to go to my website Metaxistalkis talk.com. Click on the give life banner right at the top. A gift of $88. You don't have to give that much, but if you can, $88 provides a hungry kid with food for an entire year. Think about that. And water for life. I'll give you the phone number. It is 844-863 Hope. 844-863-hope.

We are grateful to you. 844-863 Hope or metaxis talk.com.