The Eric Metaxas Show - Jochen "Jack" Wurfl

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

Holocaust Survivor Jack Wurfl | My Two Lives

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mattaxas show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. It's a nutritious smoothie of creamy, fresh yogurt, vanilla, vanilla, protein powder, and a mushy banana. For your mind, drink it all down.

It's nummy. I wub, vanilla. I wub, wub, I wub, wab, I wab, vanilla. Here comes Eric Metaxus. Hey, folks. Welcome to the show. Hey, Chris Heims, I'm still in California. Wow. On purpose? Yeah. Well, yeah.

Yeah. I love California. It is one of my more favorite places to visit, but it's crazy how crazy it got to live there. Well, there's a lot of good to say about California. There's no doubt about it. But it is now under the, well, We all know that, you know, the, it's basically. The Newsom, the Newsom, it's like a third world country in many ways. But anyway, I'm flying home to New York today.

But before that, I want to say a couple of things. First of all, my guest in both hours today, folks, this is one of those next level interviews that I have done over the years where you just think, I cannot believe this story. I'm going to, in a few minutes, and for both hours today, have a conversation. with a Holocaust survivor. Now, what does that mean? He was not in the death camps, but he and his brother were Jews in Germany during the Nazi time. It is just one of the most incredible stories. I don't want to spoil it. But he and his brother were Jewish living in

Germany during the Nazi period, what they did to survive. It's just, I don't want to give it away. But the name of the Jack. My guest is Jack Worfell, W-U-R-F-L-W-F-L-W-Fel, would be the German pronunciation, Jack Woffel. He's 91 years old, and he's going to be my guest in both hours today. But it is just, it's just extraordinary. Absolutely. It's an honor to have a show that you can share stories like this. I mean, that's always been my, you know, the highlight for me is when you hear a story and not all the guests are home runs, right? But when, you know, it makes all of the singles worth it when you get somebody like this guy as well.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. So you've got a real treat coming up. And that's in both hours because I was talking to him and I just said, I don't want to stop. I want to keep going. I want to keep going. I want to keep going.

So it ended up being both hours. So hold on to your hat. We've got a Jack Whirful in both hours today. again, he's 91 years old. He survived the Holocaust and the story. Again, I don't want to spoil it, but you'll see pretty quickly in the next segment. I want to say a couple of things, clarify a couple of things. So I want to mention letter to the American church.com.

If you want to sign your church up, go to letter to the American church. There's also a lot of kind of action points because I say to people like, I want it to be a movement, right? I want Christians to get activated to put their faith into action. Bonhofer always talked about faith in action. We're not meant to just have some theological thoughts. A lot of people, they kind of get over-focused on theology, and they forget, I'm supposed to live it. I'm supposed to be a disciple of Christ. I'm supposed to live out my faith.

And that really is at the heart of why I wrote a letter to the American Church. It's why we made the film, Letter to the American Church. So if you go to letter to the American church.com, you can see all kinds of things that you can do, including signing your church up for a free screening. We hope you'll take us up on that. I also want to mention quickly Socrates in the cityplus.com. If you're not signed up, you're missing some cool stuff. Like I've talked about it a few times, but there's some awesome stuff.

Socrates in the city plus.com. I hope everybody will sign up. Socrates in the city plus.com. Socrates in the city plus.com. Okay, now we have to talk eschatology. Chris, can we talk about some eschatology? Yeah, we can. We can.

I mean, as you know, we have all the right answers here on how it's going to go down. Yes, exactly. No, it's, this is kind of a weird thing, actually. So I'm glad I get to talk about this before we go to my amazing guest. A few weeks ago, I had a guest on, a guy who's been a friend for many, many years, Benjamin Thomas was on the program. to talk about his book. And he gets into certain theology. And he was talking about what's called pre-trib rapture theology. And I want to be very, very clear, I'm not against pre-trib rapture

theology. So if somebody's a pre-trib person, some of my best friends, it sounds funny, right, like Jack Hibs or whatever. People that I love and adore and follow are pre-trib folks. I wouldn't say that I am or that I'm not. I genuinely don't know what I think, right? You know, when I hear people talk about this, it's not something that I take a stand on. But when I was having the conversation with Benjamin Thomas a few weeks ago, he takes a firm stand on it.

And I was kind of like I often do sort of just agreeing with him, right? Because he was saying things that I liked. But what I was really animated about was not the theology, whether I agree with preacher or rapture or don't. But with what can happen with some people, right? And again, most of my friends who have this theology of the end times are not guilty of this. But Benjamin Thomas was talking about this idea that, you know, if you believe Jesus is going to pull us out of here before the tribulation,

then perhaps that's an incentive not to do anything now, right? Now, again, I always think of my friend Jack Hibbs. He's the antithesis of that because he's a preacher of rapture guy, but he is as active in the now as anybody ever could be. So I normally point to him as the model of Christians living out their faith. But when I had Benjamin Thomas on the program, as I was agreeing with him, I don't even know. I'm afraid to watch the program to see what I said.

but I was pretty much saying, like, yeah, when you have the view that Jesus is going to pull us out of here, if you're one of the people who uses that as an excuse not to do anything, then, you know, that's out of the pit of hell. Like, that's the worst thing. The devil wants us to do nothing. But I think when TBN put up the video on YouTube or something like that, the headline is something like theology from the pit of hell or so. I don't even remember. but a lot of pastors got really angry at me because it seemed like I was saying I totally disagree with the pre-trib rapture thinking, which I don't, which is. Yeah, it was sort of like you were jumping ahead to his point where he was saying,

you know, that sort of fallacy leads people to, you know, the fallacy of sitting on your hands and not doing anything because your bags are packed and it's all, you know, you're out of here, right? Right. Right. In other words, that idea kind of... Don't love your neighbor. You don't share the gospel, that kind of stuff. Well, I think people do... A lot of them would maybe say, the only thing worth doing is sharing the gospel. And I would say, no, there's lots of things

that you need to do. In any event, I just want to be very clear. At some point, I said I need to address this on the air and say, I don't have a particular view on the end times. I've heard different points of view, you know, when somebody like Jack Hibbs is talking about the preacher of rapture. view, I tend to agree with it, right? But then somebody else says something else, like, oh, that's an interesting point. So I don't have a view. So I'm not against any of these views.

What I'm against is people using a view of the end times to excuse doing nothing now. So I just wanted to be really clear about that. And that does, yeah, and that does please the devil. Yeah, I was going to say, and that does the devil not doing anything. But there were a lot of people that were just like really ticked off. And I thought, well, what did I say? What did I say? And I realized that sometimes if I'm not careful, I'm shooting from the hip, I made it sound.

Maybe I did even misspeak. I don't even know. I don't want to watch the video again because I don't want to see what I really said. Oh, I'm going to watch it. I want to be clear that I don't have a view. And so therefore I would never speak. I would never mean to speak out against a view like that, especially when it's held by people that I love and respect as much as I do, you know, the right.

raft of people that, you know, contacted me. So I just want to be really clear on that. I don't really have a particular view. I, I, I'm, actually what fascinates me is how some people seem to take their eschatology so seriously that they would get that upset at me for saying that. I thought, wow, I didn't, I honestly didn't see that coming. And, you know, I, that's why I thought, let me address it just because it's, it was kind of weird.

It was kind of weird for five minutes. Okay. When we come back, I'm talking to one of the most amazing guests I've had in a very, very long time. Again, this is a Jewish man. He's 91 years old. He finally wrote a book about his experiences as a kid. As a Jewish kid growing up in Nazi Germany, it is unbelievable, fascinating. Stay tuned. Legacy precious metals has a revolutionary new online platform that allows you to invest in real gold and silver online. In a few easy steps, you can open an account online, select your, your medals of choice and choose to have them stored in a vault or ship to your door.

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Folks, if you know me and my story, you know how excited I am to talk to the guest I have on right now. My guest is someone who is 91 years old and experienced the Holocaust as a German Jew. It is my honor

to have on Jack Werfel and the book is called My Two Lives. Jack, it's just a great joy for me and a privilege to speak with you. Thanks for coming on the program.

Thank you for having me. Well, listen, your story I mean, my mom is 89. She lived through this period. She did not, however, go through what you went through as a Jew in Germany under the Nazis. You are 91 years old. What made you wait till now to tell your story in a book?

Well, Eric, people have asked me for years and years would I write a book about my experience because it's a bit different than most people here. And I've always told them that, you know, there are thousands of other people who experienced very, very similar lives as I did in Germany. And as one of those, I'm really not a book writer, you know, that really wasn't my thing. And two and a half months ago, my daughter, Dana, and her husband Tom, set me down and said, Dad, you've got to write that book now. We want our children, our grandchildren, their grandchildren, and so on and so on. Always to know where we come from, what our family is all about, where we lived, where you came from,

how you came to the United States, and so on. Well, my daughter, Dana, is the only person in the world probably. I can't say no to. So I finally said, okay, I tried, but I'm not a writer. I have never written a book. But I tried. Well, now you've written a book. So I think you've disproved your thesis.

So it's wonderful that you've done so. And this is why I think fathers need daughters. It's a wonderful thing because you can't say no. and I'm glad you didn't say no. The book, which is a very new book, is called My Two Lives. And again, you experienced the Holocaust. It's hard for us to believe

that there are people alive today who have lived through that hell and are living through what we're seeing now with October 7th and the satanic evil of those who hate the Jews, who want to kill the Jews, and it is satanic.

I want to ask you, what was it like? in the best of your own words, and I know you say it in the book, but to be a Jew in Hitler's Germany, what part of Germany did you live in, and how did this manifest itself in your childhood? Yeah, originally, actually, my family is from Austria. My father is from Vienna.

He was Catholic, and he married my mother, who is Jewish and lived in Germany. So I met my mother. My mother actually is the most of the time that I spent with her, except the first three or four years we spent in Germany. So, of course, you know, we have to, if they're young people listening and they don't understand, the Nazis were the definition of racist. They don't care what you believe.

They only cared about where are you from, what's your blood. and if you have Jewish blood, you're a Jew. You could be a Jew who believes in the Christian God, who worships in a Christian church. They only care about what's racial. They only care about Jewish blood. And of course, in my book on Bonhofer, I talk about Bonhofer's best friend was ethnically Jewish,

but he was ordained as a pastor. Of course, the Nazis don't care what you believe. They only care about are you ethnically Jewish. And if you are, you are their enemy. And so you're a boy growing up in this world. When did you first notice that something is going wrong? At what age were you? I was probably about four or five years old.

I can't remember that far back. And what did you notice? Well, my father worked for President Shoshnik in Austria. Your father worked for the president of Austria. Holy cow. Wow. Tell me the name of the president of Austria at that time. And this is before Dolphus, is that right? No. Yeah, well, that was just before the Anschlost, you know, before Hitler walked into Austria and made Austria a part of Germany. And that was 38?

Yeah. Okay. So my goodness, your father worked for the president of Austria. My goodness. And so I'm fascinated that at such a young age, if you were born in, I guess you were born in 32. Yes, that's correct. If you're born in 32, so when you say you're five years old, 1937, it was already getting dangerous, very dangerous in 1937. So what did you see in your life? And I know it's all in the book. The book is called My Two Lives.

But what did you see as a child? How did your parents deal with this? Well, I heard my father say that Hitler was going to come into Austria, take over Austria, so that he felt that to keep my brother and myself safe, we should go to Berlin, where my grandparents lived. And at that time, Berlin was evidently a little safer than being in Austria where Hitler was walking in. That's an unbelievable thing. I never would have guessed that. But of course, your father was in the most elite circles possible,

so he would be in a position to know. So he sent you and your brother to Berlin to live with your grandparents. That's correct. And your grandparents were his parents? No, were her parents. My mother was Jewish. Yes. He was Catholic.

So he sent you to live with your Jewish grandparents. I lived with my Jewish grandparents, who were my mother's, Parents. Okay. In Berlin. So what happens at this point? Obviously, he didn't know where this would take you, but what was your experience? Well, we moved to Berlin as children, my brother and I, to live with our grandparents. And sure enough, Hitler moved, of course, into Austria, which they called the Anschlos. and my father and President Choshenik, they were arrested, put on the same train, and they were both sent to a concentration camp, Saxonhausen, which is exactly north of Berlin, just a few miles north of Berlin. So Hitler put all his political enemies in concentration camps, so you didn't need to be Jewish.

Your father was Catholic, and Shusnich, I don't believe, was Jewish. Well, no, Shetnik was not Jewish. Yeah. He was a political enemy, just like my father was considered. Yes. Yes. Political enemy. Now, what my father did in my mother, when we came to Berlin, they took us to a Catholic church

and had my brother and myself baptize. Catholic. Yeah. So whenever someone would ask us, what is your religion? What do you believe in? As little children, we would always say Catholic. Yeah. And that's what's one of the things that saved us.

So it's, you say one of the things that saved you, but you ended up being sent to the death camps? No, we were not. You were not? We were not sent to the death camp. Because, okay, because you said you were Catholic. So then what was your story? In other words, here you are living in Berlin. You have Jewish grandparents, but you have been baptized into the Catholic Church.

And you're saying that this was the wisdom of your father and grandparents to protect you and your brother. Yes, that's correct. Now, what happened while we were living there? Things were getting honor and hotter in Berlin. and more and more people disappeared. Several of my grandparents and my relatives disappeared. My uncles disappeared. My aunts disappeared.

My kids, our age, disappeared. So my grandfather happened to know a camp in northern Germany on the North Sea called the place was called Dangast. That's a little village there. And this lady, Irma Franson Heinrichstorff, ran this camp for maybe 30, 40 children. And my grandfather sent us there.

Now, this lady was not Jewish. She was very German. She had two children. And the two children were both, members of the Hitler youth. So she said, if you live here, I suggest she, right away, this lady knew that we were Jewish.

But she... Excuse me, Jack. We're going to go to a break. Folks, plenty more. I'm talking. My guest is Jack Verfel. The book is My Two Lives. This is Dennis Prager.

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Nutrametics.com, use the code Eric for 15% off. Welcome back, folks. I have the privilege of speaking with Jack Verfel, who's written a book My Two Lives, about his experience as a Jew during the Holocaust in Germany. So, Jack, you said that your grandparents sent you to this camp, and you, even though you were ethnically Jewish, you'd been baptized as Catholics,

you're trying to escape death. and you were put into the Hitler youth, in a sense, to camouflage you, to make it look like you were on board with the Nazi thinking. Yeah, for one thing, but also you have to remember that all boys and girls at that age, you had to be in the Hitler Jews. If you were not in the Hitler youth, there was something wrong. and they would come out and find out who the heck you are. And why aren't you in the Hitler youth?

So this lady suggested we join with her children and the other children join the Hitler youth. Were you old enough at that time to be opposed to Hitler internally in your mind? Were you aware of those kinds of things? How old were you when you were put into the Hitler youth? Well, it was about seven to eight. years old at that time. And yes, we were very much aware of what was going on from my father, from my parents, from my mother, from the lady at the camp, and from all the other children at the camp were in the Hitler youth. So why would we be in Hitler, they would question that,

probably, you know? My mother is 89, so she's two years younger than you. And I know she's the Hitler-Yugin for girls by one year. She's always said that to me, that if she was one year older, she would have been put into that. So you and your brother, is your brother older or younger? He's a year and a half older. A year and a half older than you. So you are enrolled as Jews in the Hitler youth.

And were you afraid to speak? It seems to me that it would be a very difficult situation. Well, it was difficult. It was very hard. My brother and I used to talk about it all the time, what we should do and what's best for us. And it was a terrible situation, but we had no choice. So we would act like all the other kids and be part of the Hitler youth.

And you say that you saw many of your neighbors, your Jewish neighbors suddenly disappearing. Yes. And children that I knew overnight, the next day they were gone, it was terrible. And we didn't really know where they were going. And they told us while they were going east, their parents had another job. That's where the children were being told. Now, when we came to Berlin and my father was arrested,

My mother went to Czechoslovakia to be in exile there. And she lived in Prague for, I think it was about two years, somewhere around there, until Hitler also came into Czechoslovakia. And then, of course, there he handled the Jews the same way he handled them in Germany and everywhere else. So I have to say you lost both of your parents. murdered by the Nazis? Yes. Do you, did you know at the time where your parents were?

So here you and your brother are boys, little boys. Did you have an idea of where they were and what was happening? Well, yeah, I remember getting a letter or two from my mother. I knew that she wasn't proud. I knew that my father was in a concentration. camp in Berlin that I do. What happened after this? In other words, you were, you're in Nazi Germany, your boys, where did it go from there? I mean, as the war came, were you aware of where your parents

were during the war? Well, um, Yes, there was a time my mother came back from Czechoslovakia, and she was very anxious to see us. And she called the lady at the camp and she said, I want my boys to come to Berlin just for a short period of time. So we went back to Berlin to live with her in a separate apartment. What year was that, Jack? I was about 10 years old then. So this is during the war, your mother, who's just, Jewish dared to go to Berlin.

Yeah, come back to Berlin. Yeah. That's absolutely extraordinary. So in the middle of the war, your mother felt that it was okay to go to Berlin. That's extraordinary to hear. Yeah, she came back to Berlin and rented the department, and my brother and I went back to live with her for a short period of time. While we were there, we found out, and we were told that my father and mother were still in contact through an SS officer at the camp.

And what they were doing, they were exchanging letters. So my brother and I were on a mission one day to deliver a letter to this gentleman. Now, my mother told us exactly how to get there by subway. We had to transfer and we met the gentleman who had a cold word. We gave him the letter and he gave us a letter. This is unbelievable. Forgive me. We're going to another break.

I'm talking to Jack Vorfel. It's WURFL. WURFL. The book is My Two Lives. This is all in the book. We'll be right back. Mike Lindell and My Pillow employees want to thank my listeners for all your continued support. To thank you, they're having an overstock clearance.

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800-9783057. Use promo code Eric. Welcome back. I'm talking to the author of My Two Lives, Jack Vorfel, who experienced the Holocaust and Nazi Germany as a Jewish boy. Jack, you're telling us an extraordinary story that in 1942, an SS guard at Saxonhausen, I guess, was communicating, was a conduit so that your mother, your Jewish mother, could communicate with your father, who was a political prisoner of the Nazis. And you and your brother delivered a letter. to this man. How extraordinary.

Yeah. He gave us a letter. We took it back home. As we got out of the subway and turned the corner to go into our house, we noticed that there were a number of automobiles from the Gestapo and SS in front of our apartment house. We had an apartment there. and we decided carrying this letter we better wait here and see what our mother tells us when they leave so we waited there in the corner

and we watched all this and to our surprise they came out and with my mother put my mother in one of the Gestapo crafts and took her away my brother and I we took that letter

We thought we best destroyed the letter at this point. We went back down in the subway station, tore it up into a thousand pieces so that no one would find it. And that was the story with my mother, and she was now arrested. And it took my brother and myself about three days to find out where in Berlin my mother was imprisoned, in which prison. And we found that out. And as kids, we walked into the prison as if we owned the prison and ran around.

And we found our mother at her cell. And we went into our mother and said, Mother, here we are. And she said, boys, be good. Go to school. Learn as much as you can, always. You know I will always love you. You will always love me. but leave this prison now

because if you don't, you're going to end up where I am right now. You don't want to be here. So my brother and I went out of the prison and as we got to the front gates, finally some officer had suspicion that

what are these boys doing here and grabbed us and we tore ourselves loose and ran out into the street. They ran after. to us, but at 10-year-olds, we could run a little faster than they could, and we disappeared, and they couldn't find us. Now, my mother, before all of this happened, my mother said, if anything ever happens, while you live with me here in Berlin, here is the name of an attorney, you call him, tell him

what happened to me, and he will take care of, take care of you, and tell you what to do. And he did. And he told us to go back immediately to Denghis, to this lady, to this camp where we had lived before. And that's what we did. So in 1942, you at 10 and your brother at 11 or 12 traveled by yourself to northern Germany to reunite with the woman who had been caring for you before your mother? Yeah, that's correct. We went back by train. This is unbelievable.

This should be a movie, Jack. I think your family probably realizes this. What an extraordinary story to hear you telling this. It's absolutely amazing that at this age, you experienced this. Yes. So you go back to this woman. What part of Germany was it again? Was it Pomerania?

Where is it? Well, it was called Dangast, and it's in northern Germany. It's called Friesland. And it's right on the North Sea. Okay. Our camp was only one block from the beach. Friesland. And so I imagine I know this area.

And so what happened to you at this point? It's 1942. Your father is at Sachsenhausen. Your mother has been arrested by the Nazis. Were you in contact with them? Did you know what happened to them after that? When did you find out? No.

found out a little later. In the meantime, we were still in the Hitler youth. When we were two years above that, they were teaching us how to use simple weapons like hand grenades. We fired bazookas. We learned how to march. We had to learn how to say Hitler, and so on. We went to school in this little village and to teach her.

luckily who was also an SS officer but taught us every day he knew very well what we call Tunter Irma, Irma Franzen Heinrichsdorf, the lady who ran the camp and between the two of them they knew who we were and they every so often gave us advice. Now, we went school every morning at 8 o'clock and learned the Hitler philosophy. We sang songs, German songs, about the danger of the Jews and kill the Jews and all these sort of things. And we had to sing along with everybody else. We had no choice. Because if we didn't, that would be the end of us.

So now we hand two friends in Tangas. The lady who went to him as well as our teacher. I mean, the fact that the teacher was in the SS is unbelievable. In other words, the idea that you have a teacher who's in the SS who knew that you were Jews and that this teacher who was in the SS participated in, in protecting you. That's the kind of a story we don't often hear. It's an amazing thing.

Yeah. He would teach us 8 o'clock in the morning until 1 o'clock noon. And then he would go change into his black uniform, get on his motorcycle, and take off for his SSS meetings. We never knew where he was going, what they were doing, what he was doing. but he was always very good to us. There's so much more to this story, folks. I'm talking to Jack Worfel, W-U-R-F-L. The book is My Two Lives.

We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm talking to Jack Vorfel, W-U-R-F-L, who's written a book about growing up as a Jew during the Holocaust. It is an absolutely fascinating story. If you've been listening, you know that's true. The book is titled My Two Lives. So, Jack, it is extraordinary that here you are being protected by somebody in the SS.

And this is just a lesson for all of us that things are not what they seem. There are people who are members of wicked organizations, corporations, you name it, who may not be on board with the philosophy. They are on the inside trying to do something. Did you know what happened to this SS member later on in life? Yes, he, after the end of the war, he was arrested, of course, because he was SS. And about a year later, our Tunter Irma, the lady who ran the camp, went to the present camp and told them who this gentleman really was. that he was, yes, he was the teacher of the children there.

He taught them, but he helped them, and they actually let him go out of prison much earlier than normally would have. So the allies understood that this is not your typical SS member. So when you were, during the war still, while it looks like the Nazis may prevail, I know that in the end that there were some 12-year-old boys. You were 12 at the end of the war, 13, that there were some 12 and 13-year-olds being, you know, conscripted to help this failing war effort. I've seen the films of these kinds of things. What was happening in your life in 44 and 45?

Did you have a sense that the Nazis are losing? Did you ever have a sense that you and your brother might be asked to fight in Hitler's army? Yes, we were in what they call it, the folks police, which means folks police. And at the end of the war, my brother and I and other children, we were all asked to stay in the fields outside. side of Dengas, so when the German army was retreating by the allies, that we would then protect them and fight the allies. You know, as a 12-year-old boy, we were supposed to protect the army, the German army that was going back. There's one thing I'd like to tell you that I haven't mentioned to you. My mother, at Christmas time, after my

my mother was arrested, she was taken to Auschwitz. And at Christmas time, Tantirma, the lady who went to home, she had almost become our second mother. That's the way we felt about her. She called us in at Christmas Day to tell us that she heard that my mother was killed in Arjwitz, that she was dead. What year was that, Jack? Yeah, this was about the year of 1945, I would say.

So this is after the war, Christmas 45, or this was 44 before the end of the war? The war ended in 45. 45, yeah. We're going to go to a break. I want to keep talking to you. So, folks, will continue my conversation by God's grace with Jack Worfel. The book is My Two Lives.