The Eric Metaxas Show - John Burke (Encore)

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

John Burke returns to the show with his latest book "Imagine the God of Heaven". This follow-up to Burke's bestseller Imagine Heaven further explores ideas of the afterlife. The intersection of modern medical technology and global social media is revealing more near-death experiences than ever before! Burke analyzes over 1,000 of these events, shares 70 true stories from around the globe, and highlights how they affirm God's biblical attributes.

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Do you check your bucket list lately? Are you ready to take care of item number seven? Listening to the Eric Metaxe show? Well, welcome.

Tune in and then move on to item number eight, skydiving with Chuck Schumer and AOC. Here now is Mr. Completed Mind. bucket list at age 12 Eric Matt, Texas. Folks, I have as my guest, John Burke, who's the author of Imagine the God of Heaven Near Death, Experiences,

God's Revelation and the Love You've Always wanted. John Burke, welcome. Hey, thanks for having me on the show. Now, you just reminded me that you were last on this show about seven years ago. We were just kids then. We were in junior high. We said, let's do a radio show. And was that Ham Radio?

I don't know. It was a long time. go. And you, back then you wrote a book called Imagine Heaven. Imagine Heaven. So let me ask you the first question. What's the difference, or is there a difference between the book Imagine Heaven and the new book, Imagine the God of Heaven? Yeah. Yeah. So I wrote Imagine Heaven after 35 years of studying over a thousand near-death experiences. I actually came at it as an agnostic. I was an engineer. always been very analytical. My dad was dying of cancer, and someone gave him the very first research on the topic, and I read it in one night and said, wow, this might be actual evidence that this God,

Jesus stuff is real. And so that started me on my search. I came to faith in Christ. And when was that? Oh, that was 80s, early 80s. In the 80s, right. But the funny thing is I remember myself before I believed that there was a lot of the 80s. a God or whatever. You'd come across something like this and you'd say, what do I make of this?

Like, did this person make this up? And then there's story after story after story. Did all these people make it up? Like, how do you logically explain this? And it's fascinating to me because it is evidence that you have to deal with. But so you dealt with it and you decided, okay, I want to come to faith. But at some point, this is seven years ago, you write a book kind of like the best, the greatest hits of some of this stuff. Yeah. And it did. And it did. I mean, I studied over a thousand of them before I could start to see that, okay, these commonalities line up exactly with what Scripture has been telling us all along of our expectation of the afterlife. And so imagine Heaven was really focused on that, on looking at what Scripture's expectation of the afterlife is, but illustrated through the eyes of these people who, when they clinically died, no heartbeat, no brainwaves for minutes to hours. and yet they come back and consistently they had overlapping explanations of what they experienced.

So the book, Imagine Heaven is kind of like the greatest hits. And so this is like Greatest Hits Volume 2? No. No. This is really about God. It's a book about God. Uh-huh. It's really, what I'm doing is I'm showing the scriptural story of God, the historical story of God, the attributes of God, but illustrated through 70 people from every

continent who when they clinically died, they experienced the God of Scripture. They didn't experience the God they thought maybe they would. They didn't experience Ganesh or Zeus? No. Are you sure? Well, yeah. So it's important to understand that what I'm really looking at is what did they actually report, not necessarily how did they interpret what they reported. Yeah. And we can talk more about that. But in the book, you know, like, I have a Hindu manufacturing engineer. He grew up in India. Hinduism was all he knew. And yet when he hears code blue, his pancreas erupted into his gallbladder and it basically killed him.

And he finds himself like the commonalities up above his body, able to see his body. And then this brilliant God of light comes to him. And he said, I knew this was divine. I knew this light was divine. And he said, I instantly fell in love with this light. And then this light takes him to this place. And he describes the city of God, just like John does in Revelation chapter 21. But he doesn't know what he's talking.

He calls it a giant compound. In India, there are all these walled compounds. Okay, see, this, I mean, one of the reasons I'm interested in this is that I've always believed that, know, it's kind of like science, right? Like, imagine you're in the 18th century, you don't know about atoms and molecules. So you're doing some experiments, and you see some commonalities and some themes and stuff. And you say, there's something going on here. There's a reality that I can't see with my eyes, but as a scientist, I want to study this. I want to find out what I can find out. Exactly. That's what this is. In other words, here you are. Different

people are telling you stories, they don't know each other, and you're saying, well, this is interesting, that person dies, comes back, they tell that story, that person dies, come back, they tell us that. Let's, let's compare notes, let's see if there is an invisible reality, or are they just making it up? They're, you know, blowing smoke. But the idea is that it's a scientific investigative journey to try to figure out, can we actually know any of this stuff. Yeah, think about it, one of the most basic scientific principles is what is consistently observed is real, right? Yeah.

So with near-death experiences, people don't realize this. There are millions, millions of them all over the globe. So a European Academy of Neurology just reported in 2019 a study done across 35 countries and found that 5.5% of all people when they're clinically dead come back reporting a near-death experience. That's millions. Gallup poll in America said one out of 25. So we're talking about a large sample case, right? I've personally studied thousands. But what's amazing, you know, what convinced me as a skeptical, as a skeptical medical engineer, and what's convinced many skeptical medical doctors as well, when people die, they do say they leave their body, but initially they're up above their

body and they can watch their resuscitation. So when they come back, they're able to report things that can be verified, can be checked out. And there have been studies done. Dr. Janice Holden did a study of 93 patients who claim to make observations that could be checked out, claim they had a near-death experience. She found 92% of them were completely accurate. Each one may make 5, 10 observations. 92% completely accurate. Another 6% you know, some, inaccuracies. Only one patient, 2% was just, you know, out of there. Right. Well, again, this is the kind of stuff that if you're honest, it should freak you out because it implies, obviously, that we have souls, that we're able to, like when your body is not working, your brain's not

working, your eyes are not working, you're able to see people working on your body, see doctors and stuff like, you know, again, if you're logical, you have to figure out, okay, so what's going on there? Yeah, and you know, Eric, I mean, every year someone throws out another alternate explanation. CNN just reported near-death experiences are just a blip in the brain after clinical death study shows. Yeah. That didn't even what the article said. Yeah, of course. But you have to read to the very bottom.

Yeah. But here's what's interesting about it. in chapter two of Imagine the God of Heaven, I put the 10 points of evidence that I think any alternate theory has to address. So verifiable observations is just one of them. But why do you have common overlapping? So there are about, there are actually about 40 different overlapping descriptions of the life to come or God or different things like that. Why would only 33% of them have a life review, for instance, why not 100%? Right.

Why would 57% and this is across the globe, right? See deceased relatives. Why wouldn't all? If it's just in the brain. Yeah. Right. And then another point, 48% see this God of light and love who is personal, not a force, but incredibly personal.

So why would 48% see the same God, even though some of them didn't expect anything. And others expected, like you said, Ganesh or, you know, the Buddha or something else like that. We're 70 virgins or whatever. And they didn't see them. They saw other things. No, it is fascinating to me. I'm glad we have the full hour with you. Folks, I'm talking to John Burke, author of Imagine Heaven, and now author of Imagine the God of Heaven, Near Death Experiences. and the love you've always wanted. Ain't it the truth, ain't it the truth. This is the Eric Metaxus show.

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LegacyPMinvestments.com. Legacy pm investments.com. Check it out. We are talking to John Burke, author of Imagine Heaven, and now author of Imagine the God of Heaven. So near-death experiences, you know, this is like talking about UFO. or Bigfoot. I don't care where people are coming from. This is fascinating stuff because we want to know, is this all there is? What are these mysteries, whatever? You have taken a very scientific approach, which I think is beautiful. It's important. And there are people that they really want to know.

There's some people that don't want to know. They don't want to know. I think this is God's new global apologetic. I really do. I agree. And very different than aliens in U.S. UFOs and like Bigfoot. Yeah, well, I mean, I joke around. No, but you're exactly right. I'm a joker. No, you know what, Eric? It's why it took me 35 years to ride it. That's why. What do you mean?

Well, because, you know, you open the door and everything comes in. Yeah. And I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in evidence. Right. And that's what I found. But there were some, there were some things that I didn't understand as well. Like, how does this correlate with the scriptures? One of them that I think is important to talk about is that,

just because someone has a near-death experience, they can still come back and interpret it in their own cultural worldview. Yes. So, for instance, I was telling you about Santosh, right, who sees the holy city of God. And he describes it, this giant walled compound. Well, you said he's from India. Yeah. And he was an engineer. He was an engineer.

He's a travel the world. So he dies and he has his experience and he describes it as a gigantic walled compound. Yes, beautiful, gorgeous. Inside these, he calls them mansions. He said that. Big buildings of otherworldly building material, and he could see people. And he said, and your eyesight is like telescopic there, which is a commonality I wrote about. I can't wait to die.

Yeah. Thousands of miles. Seriously. A square, square shaped, he said, and 12 gates. I counted them, he said. Okay, now, hold on a second. Hold on a second. It gets better.

So you have an Indian guy who's not familiar. with the scripture, not familiar with the book of Revelation. And he's describing what John describes in the book of Revelation, 12 gates. And angels out guarding him. And then he said, I knew I was looking at the kingdom of heaven. And I desperately wanted to go in. And then he has a vision of hell, which he describes as a, just abyss of darkness. And then he turns and he sees who he calls the Almighty on a throne, but to the left side, and he sees, he looks into his eyes and he describes the glorified Jesus. He said his eyes were like lightning. Well, that's what Daniel saw in Daniel chapter 7, John and Revelation 1, right? He sees the same thing. And then he has a life review. And he

sees all of his good, but all of his bad too. And he realizes, I deserve that. I deserve hell. Yes. And when the Lord speaks to him, he's shocked because he says, Santosh, I'm sending you back. And when I send you back, I want you to love your family. I want you to love, especially your daughter, she needs your help right now. Now, think about that. He doesn't know God, but God knows him. And that's true of all of us. It's something we have to realize. You know, God is the God of all nations. And he created us all to be his children. And so after Santosh, it's a longer story, but basically, as he said, I was shocked because the Lord was so tender and merciful and compassionate toward me. I didn't expect that. And then he sees what he called a narrow gate or door open to the kingdom of heaven to him. And he says to the Lord, when I come back, I want to go through that narrow door into the kingdom of heaven. How do I go through it? And they have a conversation about the wages of sin is death, walk with me, surrendered. He doesn't understand. He comes back two years later, and he's seeking.

When he comes back, he's saying, who was this God of compassion and mercy and love that I met? This is not like the gods I knew. What do you mean when he comes back? What do you mean? Well, he's resuscitated. So they, but you know, you said two years later. What do you mean? Oh, I'm sorry.

I jumped. Okay. So he comes back. He was three days in a medically induced coma when his heart wouldn't start. Okay. He revives. He starts seeking God. and he's praying.

And two years later, his daughter is invited to sing in a choir at a church because she was a choral major. He goes to visit, and as he walks in, and he feels the presence of that loving God, and the message is on the narrow gate. Oh!

And how Jesus is the gate through which you enter the kingdom of heaven. Two years later. And he comes to faith. Now, that could be a one-off, you know, like, oh, well, good story. Except the whole book is full with them. 70 people in there,

Wiedik, who is still in Rwanda, a Muslim mom, an apologist who dies of blood cancer, but his mom in desperation is now praying to Jesus because nothing else would save her son. Wait a minute. You said, in a mom whose mom? Did you just say that? I did say it. And a mom whose mom is praying for him. Okay. You got to spell that out. No one's ever said that on this program. In a mom whose mom. There's always a first. Okay. And a mom whose mother is praying for him. Yes. And she's so desperate that she decides what the heck I'll pray to Jesus. She goes to the church. Interesting.

Gets them praying to Jesus. He says out of a hellish experience, he appears this man of light in a robe with a beard who holds out his hands and has holes in his wrists. And he says, I died for mankind. among those I died for, never deny it, and tell everyone. And Swedeek today is an Anglican priest who's had seven death threats on attempts to kill him because he's still in Rwanda and he won't shut up about Jesus. Wow. And I could keep going, Bebe in Tehran, who the same Almighty God that Santosh describes says to her, in her near-death experience, I am he who is. And she tells me this through an interpreter in Farsi. She didn't know I'd written a book even.

Like, I mean, a PhD in Hong Kong, a professor in Australia. I mean, and when you start to see that these stories are overlapping, describing the same God. And that's what I go into and imagine the God of heaven, the character of God, the heart of God, and the history of God, too. Because, by the way, there is no other God. who is given an actual history in history. I've got to ask you, because everybody talks about,

oh, I saw the light, I went to the light, it was all great. We rarely hear the stories of people who experience what we call hell or who saw anything demonic or whatever. Talk about any of those, because it's important that we understand not everybody drifts toward the light only. No. And 23% in one study done of people who came forward to talk about their near-death experience reported hellish NDE. But that's probably low because people don't come forward.

Oh, people, listen, people, I wrote a book called Miracles, and I was astonished that you'd ask somebody, have you experienced a miracle? And they would kind of get nervous. And they'd be like, well, I've never talked about it. And I'd be like, what do you mean you've never talked about it? This is amazing. And then you'd hear the story and you, you know, I would get angry. Like, you need to tell this is an amazing story. Yeah.

It's, it really happened. You know it happened. Like, you need to tell the story. And when it comes to near death experiences, I would imagine if you've experienced hell, a lot of people would just never, ever want to talk about it or think about it. But so, but some people did. I've interviewed people who, said at a certain point, they would say, I can't go on. I get PTSD from it. Here's why.

And why they don't talk about it as well. Heavenly or hellish, they say it's more real than anything they've ever experienced here. Now, how do you explain more real? That's C.S. Lewis. I mean, the genius of C.S. Lewis, when he wrote the Great Divorce, I mean, he says, you know, he describes that it makes this world look like the shadow lands. I often have wondered, because I'm a big C.S. Lewis fan, if he didn't have something happen on the battlefield in World War I. Because of the things he says that so overlap with what these people say. Yeah. But here's the way I like to describe it.

After interviewing so many of these people, imagine if this three-dimensional, spatial, three-dimensional experience of life and, of course, one dimension of time, or four dimensions we live in. But imagine if we're actually living this life out on a flat black and white painting in your living room. Yeah. Death means separation. So at death, you're peeled off that flat, black, and white world. And suddenly you're brought out into three dimensions. And you're experiencing three dimensions of this room that was all around you all the time. But you didn't have any conception because you didn't have, you had an up or down side to side, but no in or out, no third dimension.

Now imagine getting pressed back into your flat world, and you have to describe three dimensions of color in two-dimensional black and white terms. That's what these people are having to do. Well, see, that's why when people talk about God or heaven in a kind of cavalier way, I think we have to understand there is mystery. It is frankly impossible for us to imagine what it will be like to be in the presence of God outside of time in eternity. I mean, we have to understand that we're very limited. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but it's, it's, there is a mystery there from our point of view. We're going to go to a break talking to John Burke. The book is Imagine the God of Heaven.

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Author of Imagine the God of Heaven, Near Death Experiences, God's Revelation and the love you've always wanted. So I was just saying that, you know, when people talk about experiencing heaven or something like that, it's virtually impossible. I mean, when, you know, my dad has asked me sometimes, like, so what is heaven like? And I said, well, I've read all of the stuff. And all I know is it's spectacular. wonderful, but details, it's not necessarily so easy to give details because, you know, anybody who's been there has only been there briefly. And what is it going to be like? We just know it's going to be glorious. What's going to be life? Jesus said that. It's life.

It's not death. He's not the, he's not the God of the Dead. He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the living, right? But, you know, one of the reasons, Eric, I wrote, Imagine the God of heaven is because all of us, and we have to, we're finite creatures. We put God in a box, and we've got to expand that box. You know, A.W. Tosier said, what you think about or what you imagine, he didn't say imagine, that's what I'm saying. But what you think about or what you imagine when you think about God is the most important thing you think. Why? Well, because it it affects how we live, it affects how we love, it affects how we go through suffering. It affects everything.

It affects how we trust God. And so what I'm trying to do and imagine the God of heaven is really show a theology proper of God. But through the eyes of these people, you see that God is far more mysterious and glorious and powerful. I wrote a book called Miracles and I wrote a book called His Atheism Dead. and in both of them, I talk about the fine-tuned universe. And all I can say is when you, what's that? Anthropic principle. Yeah, and when you begin to look at, I mean, a God who invented the universe,

who invented a atomic structure, who did that, it's almost heart-stopping. Like, you want to have a heart attack when you think about who is this God. He invented the universe. It is so far beyond our ability. to comprehend. We have to, I mean, you know, there's two sides of it, right? It's that God wants us to know him and have a relationship with him. But then you realize, but the one who loves us and wants us to have a relationship with him invented the universe. And there are just levels and dimensions that are so far beyond our minds to comprehend. And when we get to be with them in eternity, we're going to

begin to enter into that. But from here, it's almost impossible for us to comprehend who we're talking about. Well, it is, but we can stretch our imagination. Yes. And that's, when you hear a 12-year-old girl, Suzanne, and a 16-year-old girl, Heidi, Heidi grew up Jewish, her father had a mantra, your life is worthless, there is no God, Jesus Christ is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind. And yet when her horse lands on her and she dies, she's 30 feet up in the air, and there's Jesus with her. And she knew he was Jesus and she was not surprised because she knew this is the God she had always believed in and prayed to and then in her life review he shows her he was the one sitting by her bed when she felt God's presence when she would pray at night as a little girl now she then gets an experience of

Jesus taking her to God the Father and then you compare that to this 12 year old both of them today are nurses, but 12-year-old who has this horrible ski accident, and she finds herself with Jesus, who she didn't really know much about. And then Jesus takes her to this heavenly beautiful place. They're sitting together under a tree. He said, it was like I was his kid, but like his only kid, which is another commonality of what you hear people say. And then she said, and it was just like like being with the most wonderful loving dad or big brother. And then Jesus says to her, you know, I'm much more than what you see right now. And then she gets an experience of the power and the wonder of God.

And she said, you know, each time it was kind of like, whoa. Like when she saw Jesus at first, it was like, whoa, when she saw the beauty. But she said this was, she said all these big words. go through them, you know, omniscient, omnipresent, you know, imminent and yet transcendent. All these mean something, but they're just words many times. But when you start to see through their eyes what those words mean in terms of experience, here's what it does, Eric, it makes you go, why don't I trust God more? Why don't I trust him more? He's got this. When you hear people who went through horrible suffering, and yet they say in his presence, I saw. His plan works out perfectly,

you know, and yet they came back and they went through suffering. And yet in his presence, they saw, okay, it's going to all work for good. So we know these things, but when you start to hear them overlapping through 70 different people from all over the globe, you start to go, okay, you know, God is far more personal, relatable, even though he's mysterious and all-powerful, he's actually a fun person to be with, which blows a lot of Christians' box is open. But that's the problem is that you get a lot of like sour religious people who cannot conceive of the loving, joyful God who, you know, he invented every good thing, joy, humor, delight, And they have a very pinched religious view of him, which is, that's not who he is.

And it is fascinating because I can imagine how a lot of what you're saying would ruffle the feathers of theologically pinched people who have a particular view that this happens. And nobody could go there and get a second chance. And that, you know, that bothers me. We're talking to John Burke. The book is Imagine the God of Heaven. I'm talking to John Burke, author of Imagine the God of Heaven. John, you said that some people experience hell, some people experience hell and heaven. I mean, paint the picture for people who can't imagine that this is real.

Let me make one point first. Near-death experiences are not eternity. I think it's a very, that was one of the key things for me to understand before I could write on it. You know, in Hebrews 927, it says it's appointed for mankind to die once and then comes to judgment. These are not that. So 30% of NDEs said they came to a border or boundary that they knew they couldn't cross and still come back. And imagine the God of Heaven several times, Jesus said to them, you have to go back. You haven't died yet.

Yet they had clinically died. They had no brainwaves. Right. So this is something in between. And that's important because I think that's why they can still cry out to God and he saves them. Their decisions have not been eternalized yet. Okay. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Very, I think that's a very important point. But many times when someone I find kind of cries out last minute or really doesn't know or they might see both a hellish vision. as well as a heavenly one. So I'll give you an example. And by the way, these people are professionals. You know, most of the people I interviewed, I kind of skewed that way because it's a great test.

Like they have a lot to lose talking about this, but nothing to gain, right? Yeah. And so Dr. Rajiv Parti was chief anesthesiologist at the Bakersfield Heart Hospital. grew up in India. Hinduism was all he knew, though he really lost all belief

and everything. It was more just agnostic atheist. He had overseen patients as an anesthesiologist who came back claiming all these things of a tunnel and light and this God of light, and he always gave him a shot of antipsychotic drug. And then he had one. He had his own. And it starts off in a hellish place. And he talks about that. And he said he cried out to God repenting. He used the word repenting because he realized that he'd become abusive and addicted and just. And so does he describe what the hellish place is like? Oh, yeah. Can you tell us?

It's like what you would expect. It's darkness. It's darker. They say blacker than the darkest darkness you've ever been in. And yet there are also places where there's fire, which I always thought, you know, studying this. changed a lot of my because I would say we can't have fire and darkness that must just be a metaphor I don't know but they report this yeah and I mean you know when when that wasn't necessarily their worldview creatures who are torturing them it's it's not good it's it's like the worst prison

scene you can imagine it's dominate or be dominated it's hell it's ladies and gentlemen it is hell Well, it's, it's the antithesis of the love of God. It's about power. It is the triumph of death. I mean, it's really, it's fascinating, again, how you can think about this logically. And it makes, it makes sense. What would a place like that be like? Who would be in charge?

And what would that, you know, it's, well, anyway, keep talking because I'm just fascinated. Well, what's amazing is he, he then has what he says are, two angels, Christian angels, he called them, who take him to this place of great beauty in in front of this God of light a thousand times brighter than the sun, but easy to look at, commonly what they say, full of love, but gives him a life review and shows him, this is not how I intended you to live, and these things need to change. He says, I thought that might be Jesus. Now, why Jesus?

And then he has another experience of this same brilliant God of light. And he says, who are you, Lord? And out of the light steps a man with a beard and a robe and a gold sash and says, I'm Jesus your Savior. Okay, now this is Acts chapter 9, Damascus Road, Paul stuff, right? Yeah. Which I like to remind people because they get confused. Like, well, why would God appear to?

someone who doesn't believe in him. Well, Jesus appeared as this brilliant God of light to Saul, and Saul didn't believe in him. Yeah, Saul hated him. And notice, notice, Jesus did not tell the gospel to Saul. And he didn't tell him what to do. He later sent Ananias and Saul still had a free will. And that's very important. Saul still had to decide, because he had a lot to lose as a Pharisee, right? So he had to decide, will I follow Jesus or not? Will I give my life to him or not? And NDEs come back and they still have a free will. And yeah, there are people who experience, I had Mary Neal on the program, whom you write about, I guess, in the first book, I can't remember if you write about her.

But anyway, she's a good friend. She wrote a book and we had dinner with her. And to hear her tell the story of not being any kind of believer and then to have this experience where she dies and Jesus is cradling her and you know, you just think, is she making this up? This is a brilliant surgeon who didn't believe any of this stuff. It's amazing. It's so amazing.

And I think that's what's so important to realize is that God is giving testimony to himself. You know, Eric, if you trace back, I know that you love histories, if you trace back historically, when evil seems to be on the rise, God raises the stakes of the testimony. giving to the world. Think about Nazi Germany. Yeah. You know, trying to take over the world and doing a pretty good job and secretly trying to annihilate the Jewish people. Yeah. Yeah. And at the same time, 1948, the Dead Sea Scrolls are found. 38 of the 39, you know, copies of the Bible. And Israel is created. Well, that's what I was going to say. Yeah. Yeah. It is amazing. And I think he's doing the same through these testimonies of near-death experiences. You're the only person

besides me who's saying that. I didn't say it only through new death experiences, but when I wrote the book as atheism dead, I said the evidence for God from science, from archaeology, and from a number of other things, has become so dramatic that I always had a sense that, you know, in the last days or as things get really bad, God kicks it up a notch to say, look,

the evidence is overwhelming. And this is part of that scientific evidence. Oh, yeah. I go in. We didn't have this in the past. Here it is now. So if you're tempted to despair or tempted to, you know, to say, oh, who's to say? Well, here's all this evidence to look at. Going to another break. Final segment coming up talking to John Burke. The book is Imagine the God of Heaven. experiences, God's revelation, the love you've always wanted. John, this is very exciting. Talk a little bit about you, you're just saying, about the joy of God. Yeah, there's a lot of sour Christians in the world who forget that.

One of the main attributes of God is joy. I can be sour. It's important that we understand. God is a God of joy. Yeah, you know, Eric, it was interesting because when I was doing the research for this book, I wasn't just researching near-death experiences, but also digging through the scriptures, and I pulled out all my old seminary text, theology books. None of the theology books talk about the joy of God as an attribute of God, which I found

fascinating. How could we miss it? And in the ears talk about it. They say what C.S. Lewis said, which joy is the serious business of heaven. And they say that. You know, all the rest is his temporary response to a broken evil world, which, by the way, Indy ears tell me that it's sadness. Like sadness, like if you lost all your children instantly.

That's his sadness over people rejecting him. But his joy is eternal. And they talk about this, how God longs to delight us. I have this one commercial airline pilot, actually two commercial airline pilots who talk about, God letting them fly into the Holy City. Same one, Santosh said, kind of like in an aerial holding pattern like they would do over any major sitting in the U.S. He gave them both the same experience. And one of them said, I think it's because I was an airline pilot. Like, he just knew I would enjoy that. And then he comes down and he loved horses. Now, this is a guy who

was agnostic up until he realized he was dying. His head's about to hit the steering. wheel and this truck and he realizes okay I'm I'm a wealthy man I've never thank God for any of this and he cries out God forgive me and he said he was sincere and I jokingly say Jim you you beat the thief on the cross for last minute buddy wow but he starts he first sees a hellish and then he's rescued by these angels and he describes them they take them on this aerial view and then they come down and he loved horses. And here they're walking in this beautiful place and the angel says to him, look. And he said, out from behind these trees come these three magnificent horses. And he said, I'd never read the Bible. So I had no idea. There are horses in heaven.

Well, the Bible does say that, by the way. I didn't know that. I have read the Bible and I missed that part. Oh, yeah. Well, Jesus actually comes back riding one. Well, now that you mention it. Okay. But here's the fascinating thing is that so many things that we love in this life, you know, we somehow think that we're going to miss out if we wholeheartedly follow God and trust them. Right. You're not going to miss anything. And that's what these stories remind us of. God is the guy, you know, he says in Psalm 37, 4, delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Now, I used to say, well, not really. I mean, it's not like, oh, I'm happy. about God, I get the Lamborghini. And I don't believe that. In this life, it's not like that. In this,

in this world, you will have trouble, Jesus said. Yeah, yeah. But take heart, I've overcome the world. Yeah. In the life to come, I'm amazed at how good God is to people who don't deserve it at all. He's good. And we can trust him with everything. John, it's a joy to talk to you. I wish we had more time. But we have the book. First of all, we have the first book, Imagine Heaven. Now we have this book. Imagine the God of Heaven near-death experiences, God's revelation, and the love you've always wanted. Thank you, John, for writing these books and for bringing this to people's attention, just hugely important.

And thank you for your time today. Thanks, Eric.