The Eric Metaxas Show - John Coleman

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

John Coleman has a novel that explores the miraculous with an unambiguous title, "Miracles," and Eric and John share real and fictional stories on Miracle Monday.

Folks, welcome to the Eric Mataxis show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m. Investments.com. Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Did you like your gravy sick and rich and loaded with creamy mushrooms? If no one was looking, would you chug the whole gravy boat? Chug, chug, chug, chug. Stay tuned.

Here comes Mr. Chug-a-lug-lug-lug-hug. himself, Eric Ma, Texas. Good evening, ladies and germs. I've always wanted to say that. It's probably not even the evening wherever you are, but I got to tell you, Albin. Yes, sir. I'm a germ. John Searach.

What's that? I'm a germ. So, just so everybody knows. Well, we're all. We both are. We get under the people's skin. We have germs, but we don't need to get into that. We are more than the sum of our germs.

Let me just be real clear. No, I just want to say that we had John's American Hour 1. In hour 2 today, coming up, we have John Coleman, who's written a book about miracles. It's Miracle Monday. Buckle your seatbelt. Okay, several things I want to share. We have a number of new sponsors on the program. One of them is the Israel Ministry of Tourism.

If you can, and you can, go to holleland.israel. dot travel. Holyland. dot Israel. Travel. There's a video there. I know that I'm going to Israel next year. Like that's, it's in the plan. It's in it.

We're planning it now. I know I'm going next year. Holyland. That israel. Travel. The, I want to film a documentary streaming TV series on my book is atheism dead. And the middle part of the book, first part of the book

of science. Second part of the book is archaeology. I am so excited to go back to Israel to see some of these sites. So go to holyland.israel.travel. Also want to say that we are doing a fundraising with food for the poor. There are hungry kids in Central America, the Caribbean. We have to do what we can to help them. And on this program, once a year, we do a fundraiser with food for the poor. This is the time. Everybody needs to give something. So in a few minutes, I will tell you more about that. I forgot to say in our opening before John Smirak, I keep getting emails from friends. Eric, your Instagram was hacked. If you have a certain amount of Instagram followers, people will, you know, criminals will fake being you, they'll put a fake Instagram account,

and then they'll contact your friends and say, hey, man, how you doing? Hey, what's good? Hey, maybe could you help me out with something? And they're trying to get money. I never contact anyone via Instagram. If I ever contact you via Instagram or Twitter, that's not me. But I want to warn people. I also want to say, why don't you follow me on Instagram or Twitter or Truth Social or wherever

you want to follow me? But understand that anybody with a certain number of followers, once you get to a certain level the criminals come in they impersonate you and they try to talk to your friends if if i'm talking to you there it's not me uh i want to be real clear about that okay albin i've just got to tell you we have yonmi park coming up socrates in the city if everyone is actually going to sell out sell out not just be crowded this is it uh i travel in all all around the country i go into airports there's her book with her face on it she's a very big deal right now so this is going to be a very big deal right now so this is going to be a big deal event. Tickets are the same price as our normal events, but it could sell out.

And so I want to just warn people, go to Socratesoncitysandcity.com, sign up. If you want to come to the dinner, this is going to be an amazing dinner. The dinners, I got to say, are really extraordinary. If you're able to afford it, that's where you get to ask the speaker questions. And there's a whole other conversation that goes on. It's more intimate. And the one we had with Jeannie Konstantino the other day, I just, I keep thinking, like, I wish we could film these dinner conversations because they are that extraordinary. They're really something. So anyway, that's Sockisandasitit.com. Yonmi Park. She's a defector from North Korea. You want to talk about somebody with a story? You want to talk about it with somebody who understands what oppression state authorized oppression is?

Yon Mee Park, March 30th, Socrates in the city that is happening. So I keep saying that I'm traveling around airports. Albin, I was this weekend. You know somebody emailed us, hey, can you tell us like what are great churches to go to? Yeah, yeah. The churches that invite me to speak. Yes. tend to be those churches.

I was in Monclova, Ohio at Redemption Church. That's right outside Toledo a little bit over a week. ago. That's Pastor Stephen Whitlow. If you can drive to the Toledo area, you want to go to that church. I'm going to make a list of these churches and we're going to put it out via my email, Eric Metaxus.com, sign up for my newsletter. That one in Monclova, Ohio, redemption church, phenomenal. Go to that church. If you live in the Toledo area, you're going to another church. Here's my question. Why? Okay. That's the whole question. question. But this weekend, I was in St. Louis, Mo. And I'm sorry, Albin. And I was at Grace Church in St. Louis. I've never been there before. Never met these guys before. I was overwhelmed. It's Pastor Ron Tucker is the main pastor. And right under him is Wes Martin.

these are new friends for life. I spent a lot of time with them. I did three events there. These are all online. If you get my newsletter, you'll see them. I did on Saturday morning, I did a small event. Maybe it was 100 people, just kind of their leaders and stuff, really more personal than I normally get, you know, publicly.

But that's online if you want to watch that. I just say stuff that I normally wouldn't say to a bigger crowd. That evening, they interviewed me for their Saturday night service, which, you know, Pastor Ron and Pastor West interviewed me. And that was just fun, rambling all over the place. But I just thought it was so wonderful. And then on Sunday morning, which is to say yesterday in St. Louis, I preached at their 10 o'clock service. and it was interesting. I mean, I'm speaking on the subject of my book letter to the American church, but of course, it's a sermon.

They gave me more time than usual, so I was able to kind of say some stuff that I normally don't get to say. But all of that happened yesterday in St. Louis. And it was genuinely such a wonderful experience. I want to say to anybody in the St. Louis area, this is one of those churches. Right. Hands down. know where to go to church where they're not afraid to talk about the things that we should be talking about. It is called Grace Church in St. Louis. Grace Church, St. Louis. Thrill,

thrilled, thrilled about that. Okay, before we get into the miraculous, I want to remind everybody again, we are doing a campaign with food for the poor to feed the hungry. Listen, folks, in the scriptures, we are commanded to feed. the hungry to help those who are struggling. That's how we show the love of Jesus. Every atheist and agnostic already knows that we're supposed to help those who are less fortunate. How do they know it? Well, they got it from the Bible. They just don't know they got it from the Bible or they don't want to admit they got it from the Bible. And they'll say things like, well, I don't need to imagine a, I don't need a fictional fairy God in the sky to tell me how to be moral. How do

do you even know what is morality if you don't believe in the God of the Bible? I'd love you to tell me where you get your morality from. But that's irrelevant. The fact is we all agree, strangely, that feeding those who are hungry, who do not have food is the right thing to do. So we partner with food for the poor every year at this time. And I want to say that it's an opportunity because there are a lot of organizations. You don't know where your money goes, how far it goes. When you give money to food for the poor, just an example, if you give $72, go to metaxestalk.com, click on the banner, or you can call the number.

$72 feeds two children, two meals a day for a year plus drinking water forever. Folks, that's an insane investment. The phone number is 844-863. Hope 844-863 Hope. 844-863 hope or go to Metaxistalk.com. You'll see the banner. This is an opportunity. I'm just begging you to be generous. 844-863 hope

or go to Metaxistalk.com. Click on the banner. We really need your help. Thank you. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Biden administration has caused a financial crisis and they have no clue how to fix it. Oil prices have skyrocketed. And when oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation, that's the last thing we need. Our economy is in trouble and you need to take steps to protect

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Just go to patriotmobile.com slash Eric or call them at 878 Patriot. Get free activation today with the offer code Eric. Hey there, folks. Many of you know that I wrote a book with the title Miracles. It ended up being a New York Times bestseller. and I found out that some other guy recently wrote a book with the title Miracles, and I was like, that's not okay. I'm going to have him on the program.

I want to confront him on this program. His name is John Coleman. John Coleman, welcome to the program. Hi, Eric. Thanks so much for having me on. You know, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Listen, when I ripped off C.S. Lewis's title Miracles, I thought only I could get away with that.

But you have ripped off his title and my title. And I want to say congratulations to you. I wanted to say that on the air. Now, the difference between your book and my book, no kidding, is that your book is a work of fiction, actually, right? It's a novel titled Miracles, and it's as if the impossible happened today, what would it take for the world to believe?

Now, you, sir, are a writer who lives in Atlanta, the author of four books, and you or your work have been highlighted in the New York Times, Washington Post, Financial Times, LA Times, Christianity Today, Forbes, Harvard Business Review, among other publications. Holy cow. What do you do, what have you been writing about all these years when you're not writing a novel about miracles, which will we be discussing? You know, Eric, this is actually my first work of fiction. So primarily up until this time, the books have been oriented towards personal and professional development leadership. So last year I wrote HBR's Guide to Purpose about finding or crafting purpose in your life.

And my articles with HBR are often about personal and professional development. HBR is the Harvard Business Review. That's correct. I spit on Harvard. No, I went to Yale. And to be perfectly accurate, I spit on both of them. No, but seriously, that's interesting. What made you decide to write a novel on the subject, you know, dealing with the theme of miracles?

Yeah. You know, I've always loved fiction, Eric. and when I was younger, I tended to write some, although never a book. And I was really inspired by two things to take this on as a project. One, I watched popular culture and I thought, man, we've got a lot of really great storytelling these days, but very seldom does it realistically portray religion or religious belief. And so when you look at apocalyptic shows, you'd expect people to be praying or following rabbis or priests or preachers, and yet they're almost totally absent.

And then if you look at the Christian fiction side of things, you know, it very rarely explores the full gamut of human experience. And so there's a lot of kind of Christian romance novels or adventures, but it's often tilts towards more of a hallmark variety. And so there wasn't a melding between those two. Yeah, no F bombs. That's the Christian worldview. No, F bombs. No, it's a little more complicated than that. Ladies and gentlemen, let me just say it's a little bit more complicated than just having no cursing to make it.

But John, I joke around, but what you're sharing has been at the center of my life for decades now, just what you said, the reality of the miraculous of God being portrayed in the media, it's virtually non-existent, it's virtually non-existent in fiction and so on and so forth. So I'm glad that you set your hand to writing a novel that deals with the subject of actual miracles. Well, and what got me fascinated in that topic was just to think about this idea. We live in a world now of omnipresent, smartphones, social media, et cetera. And you kind of think if something supernatural were happening, we'd know about it, right? Because someone would catch it on video, it would go viral.

And as I started to dig into it, there are actually people on YouTube claiming that the miraculous have happened, claiming to portray miraculous things. And so it started to occur to me that the reaction wouldn't be universal, that it would actually be as divisive as uniting. And that started me thinking about what would it look like if something miraculous started going viral and how would the world react, which is such an interesting thought experiment for me to kind of play out in a fictional world. Well, I love that. And, you know, no joke, because I wrote an entire book with the title Miracles, I care about this very, very deeply. I often have guests on this program. We're discussing the miraculous. I don't have any doubt that the miraculous is real, that it's, that it's, that it happens today. But there are many people you can understand why people would be skeptical, but it's partially because they are living in a world where it's so secular that you're really protected from ever hearing this stuff. Like you're saying, you know, you'll see things on TV.

But it's never from the point of view from a biblical point of view, which I know is real and I have seen. So, well, so what roughly speaking is the plot of your novel titled Miracles? Yes, absolutely. And Eric, I hope we come back to your book. It's just a wonderful book and was really inspiring to me as I did research for my own book. The basic plot is in the city of Atlanta, where I live, a series of miraculous events start breaking out. The first one is kind of a miraculous wonder in nature. It's lights flashing above the city of Atlanta.

on the very first page, and we follow a newspaper reporter with the Atlanta Daily Journal, which is a fictional newspaper, as she's assigned to begin covering these miracles that begin to happen. And the entire plot breaks out from her perspective as she tries to cover these miracles happening in Atlanta. She's initially skeptical. She's an agnostic at best, but she's increasingly confronted with the reality of the things that she's seeing and trying to grapple with those. And so it's both about her inner journey trying to understand what's kept her from believing in the supernatural and the miraculous, as well as how the world would react to these things and the plot of the person who's actually performing these

miracles and why they're happening. A couple of minutes ago, you, John Coleman, the author of this book, Miracles, said that my book on miracles had inspired you. Are you, you're just saying that because you're being nice, but thank you very much. I mean, look, when I write my books, I hope they'll inspire people, but are you, you're serious that somehow that reading my book had an effect on your... It absolutely did. You know, as I dug in, Eric, there were a few books that I found really, really helpful in exploring the fact of miracles. And I believe in miracles.

I'm a Christian. And, you know, I had never really thought deeply about them, but I started reading, I actually read your book first and explored what I loved was the theological foundation. of miracles coupled with the stories, which helped me to kind of think through the variety of things which could happen, then got to dig in a little bit to Craig Keener, whom you highlight in the book, who's just written a remarkable two-volume series and, of course, a more condensed book recently on miracles, probably the world's experts on miracles right now. And then a couple of other authors. And so your book helped to lead me to others like Craig, but also it just kind of started me thinking about the variety of human experiences that could be

tied to it. Well, that was my goal in writing my book, Miracles, which as we were saying earlier, is nonfiction. Your book, John Coleman, is titled Miracles, but it is, it's a novel. But my book, which of course is nonfiction, one of my goals was to explore the variety of miracles only among people I knew. In other words, I thought, I'm going to set the bar really high. These are people that I know personally, except I think in one case it was somebody I knew through someone, but I thought, wow, it's the supernatural does not manifest itself in only one or two or three ways. I mean, God is alive and he speaks to us. He breaks through.

There are healings. There are stories. There are things that, and I, and I, you know, even some people, friends of mine, gave me stories. And I said, you know, that doesn't rise to the level of sounding necessities. necessarily miraculous. Probably it is, but it doesn't sound clearly open and shut miraculous. So I only wanted to put stories in my book that seemed just open and shut miraculous. But the variety, as you just said, is amazing. I mean, you've got crazy stories of angelic help, life and death. And again, these are people, folks, these are people that I know. This is not just someone I met or some story from

Africa, from a missionary. I mean, these are people that I know. And so I said, I've got to write about these stories. But then there's stories of healing. There are stories of divine intervention in other ways. I mean, there's such a crazy variety. And I thought, I want people to be open to the idea that, look, God is alive and how he speaks to us, you know, often through the miraculous through signs and wonders, it's different in almost every case. It's not simply somebody is healed or whatever. So I love the idea. I'm thrilled, frankly, that you found my book and that it led you to Craig Keener's masterful work, which is a two-volume academic work, folks. This man has done an academic work on miracles that's two volumes long. He's taken

it very seriously. And that's what I find fascinating is, like, if people dare to look into this, you're going to be freaked out because mostly the way this is dealt with, and it's how we start our conversations, people just ignore it. That's right. So we're going to go to a break, but we've got lots more with John Coleman. Brand new book. This is a work of fiction. It is titled Miracles. I think you can spell John Coleman. The book is Miracles by John Coleman. It says, If The Impossible Happened Today, what would it take for the world to believe? We'll explore that question when we come back talking to John Coleman about his book Miracles. Tell me why Relief Factor is so successful at lowering or eliminating pain. I'm often asked that question just the other night.

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Hope. 844-8663 Hope. 844-863 Hope. God bless you. Folks, we're talking to John Coleman about his brand new book. It is a novel, which is to say a work of fiction. with the title miracles. As you know, I wrote a book about miracles, which is nonfiction.

C.S. Lewis wrote a book about miracles, nonfiction. This is a novel, a work of fiction. But, John, in the book you deal with what's right at the center of all of our lives, the skepticism, there are people. I have told some miracle stories. One of the stories, I think it's, yeah, it's in the book. It's in my book, Miracles, about the Christmas Cross. I remember sharing that story with this incredibly intelligent person right after it happened.

And I was so freaked out. It was one of the most miraculous things I've ever experienced. And this person said, yeah, the mind does funny things sometimes. And I said, did you just hear what I said? And you're thinking my mind did funny. You're not being logical. People, like really smart people, sometimes they don't have the category of the miraculous. They have to just bracket it out because it's too disturbing.

Well, and that's one of the tensions I like to explore in the book is, you know, the reactions not just of the secular world, but of the Christian community, I don't think would be unified around miracles. Correct. And I saw that manifesting in two ways. You know, one, I do think a lot of people that are highlighted, there's a story of a woman named Cheryl Street in the book, and I won't ruin too much of it. But she experiences a miracle. She's from a relatively kind of quiet conservative denomination. And she's almost embarrassed to speak about it with the rest of the congregation with her pastor because they kind of think she's probably fooling herself, that it's her mind playing tricks on her.

They don't think it could have really happened. And so here's this sincere Christian woman who thinks she's, or who has experienced a miracle. But when she shares it, she meets skepticism in the church. And then on the other side, not just skepticism, but I think that some Christians, depending on the source of that Marquisites, miraculous happening would actually feel divided by it, would feel aggressive towards the person performing those or those claiming them feeling it could be false prophecy. And I think, I think there's a real tension in that. I actually experienced this. I got angry. I have two friends.

I won't mention their names, but their stories are in my book on miracles. And they were really uncomfortable about having their names published. And I thought, what is wrong with you? People are going to be helped by this. It's a true story. I know both these people are brilliant, like Ivy League graduates. They have these amazing stories, insanely miracle, obviously, miraculous, obviously true. But they were really diffident about this concept of, I don't know, I want to be private. I thought, why do you think God did this miracle in your life so you can share it and encourage others?

And it happened every time. I would say to people, I would say to friends in doing my research for my book Miracles, I said, have you ever had a miraculous story? And they go like, uh, yeah, but I've never really told anyone. And my head explodes. Like, what is wrong with you? Why have you never told anyone? This is so beautiful, so amazing. And by the way, your cowardice, your fear on this is preventing others from telling their stories. Because these things are real. More people listening to this right now have experienced something supernatural, like, oh, I never, I don't never talk about it. I want to encourage people to talk about it. It's one of the reasons I want to have you on the program because we need to talk about

talking about miracles. So your book, of course, is also titled miracles, but you deal in it as, I mean, I don't in my book, I just tell the stories, but you deal because it's a novel with how people freak out and kind of back away, and they're willing to accept anything other than the God of the Bible did this. That's exactly right. You know, Lee Strabel has done interesting work on this where more than a third of Americans claim to have experienced miracles or the supernatural. But to your point, Eric, almost none of them talk about it. It's very rare that someone will volunteer that information. And then even if they've experienced, and I believe I may have experienced miracles in my own life, they encounter other stories with skepticism, right? It's almost like we don't want to believe that the supernatural can occur. Right. And one of the most interesting things to explore in fiction, is that reaction when something incredible happens. So there's a miracle early on where one of the first public miracles that's caught on camera is someone healing, the person in the book healing someone who's blind of sight, which is such a great metaphor

as well as a real miracle that happens. And the shock of people, the kind of riot that breaks out around it, the way the narrator of the story, the protagonist responds to that, almost. unbelievable occurrence, those reactions of people are one of the most fascinating things, I think, to explore in a work of fiction. I just, I love it. And I think, I just like the fact that it's challenging people, because I really, I, again, I'm all about this. I feel like the alternative makes no sense. And there's the idea that we're living in a materialistic world where there's nothing outside the material. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm just here to break it down for you. That is stupid. And if you have bought that narrative, which is, you know, it's the easy narrative to buy.

It's like, it's like if you're living in Nazi Germany, oh, the Jews are evil. Okay, I'm on board. Yeah, right, right. Well, ladies and gentlemen, sometimes the popular narrative is wrong. And once you look into it, it's ridiculous. So the idea that we're living in a world where there's no spiritual dimension, we're not saying you have to agree with our interpretation of exactly what it is. But the idea that there is no spiritual dimension, these things don't happen. It's just so stupid. I mean, the big bang, if you believe that the world has created ex-Neilo, how do you explain that? I mean, so it just goes on and on. I find it funny, John. I just find it funny. Well, and one of the more tragic and empathetic things are, and I explore this, even with the protagonist who faced this in her life,

some people have a hard time believing in miracles because they haven't experienced one because they've experienced some tragedy. They had someone pass away. That's right. They've suffered through something in their life. And that's one of the great human tragedies and in supernatural mysteries is just why miracles happen to summon to others. And it is, it is, I'm empathetic to those who have experienced great tragedy in their life, who prayed sincerely and then didn't experience anything. Okay, that is very important. When we come back, that's exactly what we're going to talk about. Don't go away, folks. The book is Miracles by John Coleman. My Pillow is excited to bring you their biggest betting sale ever. Yet the Giza

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shopping done now while quantities last. Again, use code Eric and save mypillow.com. Folks, I'm talking to John Coleman about his new book. It is a novel, a work of fiction, but it deals with the miraculous. And John, you were just talking about, and I get this, many people, they've been really heartbroken because they prayed for someone. I think I'm my friend Dick Cabot. His mother died when he was nine or ten.

And somebody said, well, if you pray really hard, your mother will get healed. And I'm sure he prayed and she died. And, you know, how many people have stories like that? and it has really angered them. And so that's a reason that many people are hostile and skeptical to the miraculous. And it's understandable. You feel for people who have suffered that kind of tragedy, and it is a theological point, and I think you explore it quite deeply in your own book,

and it's one of the subtle theological points I try and bring up in ours, which is why do miracles happen to some and not others? Why isn't everyone healed? And one of the ways that the person who ends up performing the miracles, I won't give away the name right now, has a discussion with the protagonist, Jamie, at one point about this topic. And one of the points that he makes is, look, the whole point of miracles is to point to something else. You know, we heal people, but they're still going to die. All of us are going to die. This world is material.

It's ephemeral. It's not something that we can count on. The point of miracles isn't to make this world perfect. It's to help point us towards a more perfect world. And if those miracles aren't just an indication, certainly there are help to people in the moment, but they're reminding us that there is more than this world, that there's a supernatural world beyond this and that there is a God who loves us. But this world will never be made perfect.

But it's still a real tension that people live with in the midst of this world of suffering. You know, why can't I be relieved of that suffering? And I think it's something that we as believers have to grapple with, just like the problem of evil, as we seek to develop a more fully formed theology of what Christianity means. Well, I really, I do want to say that I've experienced the same frustration because I know miracles are real, but there are times when you pray for someone's healing or even my friend Ken Fish, who is tremendously gifted and anointed in praying for people's healing. He's prayed for people that I have known really well who have not gotten better and they've died.

And you just, you say, Lord, I don't get it. Why do sometimes you heal and sometimes you don't? And so that is real. And I think it can create a bitterness and an anger. So I struggle with that myself because it takes something to believe, to have faith. But there are a lot of other people who, the reason they shy away, I think, is because they want to have some kind of respectable Christianity. Like, oh, we don't do that weird stuff here, not like Jesus. Or we'll let Jesus do it because he did it 2,000 years ago and he was God. But we don't do that. We have nice Bible studies,

but we don't do that. And I think it's based on fear. I mean, you do encounter this, right? I mean, I think there's a fear both of how they'll be perceived in society, right? What it'll mean if their friends start to judge them, if they seem like a wacko. There's also kind of a subtle fear. what if this is true? What if God can reach into the material world and change things? And what does that mean for me if this supernatural world exists? Because if the miraculous is possible, other types of supernatural interventions are possible. Maybe the book of revelations is possible. It opens up this entire world that seems out of our control, right? Because we understand the physical limits of reality. But if this place outside reality is real and we have to grapple with that, I think there's a very real fear

what that could mean for us as well. Right. So a lot of people are living as practical atheists, basically. They're actually not trusting God. They're afraid of that God. He's kind of wild, and they want a domesticated kitty cat, Aslan, because it's just, it is more respectable. But I want to say to those folks, you come across as insecure in your faith. If you really believe what the Bible says, why would you be so worried

about your neighbor wrinkling his or her nose at you, do you really believe in the God of the Bible, or are you hedging your bets? What is going on? I mean, I don't really see an intellectual foundation for that kind of skepticism toward the miraculous. Honestly, it seems silly to me at this point with so many stories. Would somebody say that all the stories in my book,

which I know are true, they're made up? Or what, you know, in other words, what is your plausible explanation? for the miracles that happen on the mission field and on and on. You hear all these stories. So when somebody just bats it all away, I feel like, you know, that's batting away the curvature of the earth and saying, look, I know it's flat.

I don't want to talk about it. Well, and it's, you know, once you've decided that you're a Christian, you follow Jesus, what are you accepting, right? You're accepting that a mysterious God created the universe X in the yellow out of nothing, right? You're accepting that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, that there was a miraculous birth. you're accepting that he died and was resurrected, that he performed miracles. So anyone who's embraced that, theologically, anyone who calls themselves a Christian already claims to believe in these incredible supernatural acts.

I mean, so much greater than a normal healing, right? The creation of the universe or resurrection or the sending God to be a man on earth. Those are so miraculous. They're huge. And you point this out in your book. If you believe that, why can't you believe that something could happen today? can't you believe that someone could be healed today? And so there's this weird disconnect where there has to be something in authentic about your faith. And I don't mean that in as judgmental

way as it sounds, but you can't possibly authentically kind of believe the theology of the Bible and of Christianity while closing yourself off to miracles with a couple of theological exceptions of people who can explain why they don't think miracles still occur, which we could get into. but it's just a disconnect to me between what we read and what we claim to believe intellectually, but then what we feel we can believe in the moment, right? And I do think it grows out of an apathy of faith in some respects. Well, and also people will twist themselves into theological pretzels to come up with a theory why miracles are not for today. You know, they are cessationists, and they say, well, once the canon of scripture was closed, blah, blah, blah. Ladies and gentlemen,

I'm sorry, that doesn't hold up. But, I mean, if, you know, people just love to grasp this thing. They're like, that settles it. I'm done. That's just wrong. It's silly. You should at least be open to the idea that there's more to it. And I really want to say, again, I think people, there are many people, they're wedded to, they see it as, I want to be a respectable Christian.

I don't want to, you know, that's really not the sum. bonum of faith in Jesus Christ, respectability and whatever. If people are flocking to faith in Jesus as a result of your respectability and fear of miracles, more power to you, but I don't see that happening. We'll be right back. We're talking to John Coleman,

whose new book is titled Miracles. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking to John Coleman, who has written a new book titled Miracles. We're joking around. Louis wrote a book called Miracles. I wrote a book called Miracles. But this is a work of fiction. It's a novel. And it deals with the subject of miracles. We just have a few minutes left, John Coleman. So what have we not touched on in your book, Miracles or on the subject thus far? Well, one thing I think both of our books investigate, and I'd love to get your read on, is, you know, when people think of the miraculous, they often think explicitly of healings, right?

That's one of Jesus's most common miracles in the New Testament, but it does ignore the variety of things that can happen. They think of external healings, not internal healings, which is one distinction I think you draw in your book, which I think is true. And Jesus even talks about how much greater to be able to forgive sins, to bring someone to faith than to heal their bodies. But we forget about that, I think, when we think of the miraculous. Dreams and science, which are something I explore in the book a bit, the protagonist begins to experience these. I loved in your book how you talked about how a dream actually was part of the inspiration for Bonhofer, for example. And I don't know if you've talked about that on your show before. And so one of the things I would encourage people to do who are listening is to open themselves up to the variety of miracles beyond what you narrowly think of with healing.

Because we often pray for that, right? And it's certainly important. But two things like inner healing, the conversion of people, healing people of mindsets that are holding themselves back, connecting them to their families or to God. dreams that can show them a path forward, or sometimes, and Craig Keener and others cover this, in areas that are not exposed to Christ, for example, or exposed to the New Testament, people will have dreams that actually reveal that to them and allow them a path to Christ. And so one of the things I hope the books points out, and I think your book does as well, is just the variety of different miraculous experiences that people can experience.

I mean, my conversion, which I write about in several of my books, it was a dream and it was utterly miraculous. There's just no way around it, mind-blowing life-changing overnight. The second dream I've ever had that was miraculous, you're right, was connected to my writing the Bonhoffer book. And it was insane. I had this baroque, clear dream. And literally the next day, what I dreamed came true. It was one of the most, I mean, it's just one of those things you just, you have no words even to describe it. You just say, this is an insane miracle of God.

I want to tell the world. So I wrote about it in my book miracles, because I just wanted to tell at least the people who read my book miracles. But these things are real. And as you're saying, the variety is astonishing. And if I hadn't experienced them myself, I don't know what I would be saying about them. I really don't know. But I've experienced so many, I have so many friends that have experienced them. I think it's really important.

I also think, John, that we're living at a time when God is making himself more real because we're going through such difficulty in the nation and in the world. So your book Miracles, I hope will open people up to that. To open yourself up and say, God, if you're real, show yourself to me, make yourself real to me. And again, I want to be clear. some people hear from God all every day, and that's real. I don't in that way, but I have a few times. And so in your book, you open us up to the possibility.

Can you give us a hint at where the plot goes? Yeah, so it is, it's not a purely happy ending. I'll say that much, Eric. And I think that reflects reality, right? Because on one hand, the existence of the supernatural of God of miracles gives us remarkable hope, right? because the God of the universe being someone who loves us, created his image and is willing to intervene in the physical world and to care for us is the greatest source of hope that we can have. And yet, we are still taught that this world is not our home, that it will contain suffering, that it won't be deliverance here. It'll be deliverance in the hereafter.

And so I think what the book hopefully helps people grapple with is this unbelievable eternal hope that we have that anyone can access. in tension with the suffering that we will experience in this world. Man, I'm afraid we're at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, grab a copy of the book Miracles by John Coleman. John Coleman. Thank you.