The Eric Metaxas Show - John Hopper

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

John Hopper provides answers to questions worth asking, especially when it comes to big-picture ideas, with his new book, "Questioning God."

Folks, welcome to the Eric Metaxus show, sponsored by Legacy Precious Metals. There's never been a better time to invest in precious metals. Visit legacy p.m.investments.com. That's legacy p.m.investments.com. The Texas show with your host, Eric Mettaxas. Hey there, folks. Welcome to the Eric Metaxis show. It's a show. It's not real. It's just a show. But the conversations are very real, almost too real. Actually, today, I have the joy. of a conversation on a subject really, really, really, really, really, really close to my heart.

The author of a book, John Hopper, has written a book with the title, Questioning God, Answers to Questions Worth Asking. Now, there's a lot of books like this. In fact, I've written a couple of them myself. But what I like about this book in particular, I guess we'll find out in the conversation with John Hopper. So without further ado, let me at least introduce. John Hopper, my guest, John, welcome. Well, it's great to be here with you, Eric.

Your approach in this book strikes me as important because you have an ability. I think a lot of times when people are talking about God, they get overly theological and they forget what are the real questions that people have. you know, people, some people don't care about the genealogy questions or about the, whatever theological questions, they just want, they say, well, you say in the first chapter of the book, this is what struck me. Your first question is, life is good. So why be concerned with God? I think that is the case for most people, certainly in the United States of America. They go, look, yeah, maybe I have some problems, but life is good enough. Why do I want to get involved with the God thing?

It just doesn't seem worth my time. It seems irrelevant. That's a good place to start. So let me ask you that question first. How do you answer that? Yeah, you know, I think it's a perspective that a lot of people have, Eric. It's like, my life's good. If you need a little religion in God in your life, that's okay.

But just sort of leave me alone because I'm doing just fine. And, you know, I think the way that I look at this, Eric, is that a lot of the things that people enjoy or considered to be important. They get rather thin if God doesn't actually exist. So, for example, I think a lot of people think that meaning and purpose is important in life, or love is important in life, or justice is important in life. And yet, if we take God from out, from under the hood of the universe, you might say, those things are kind of suspended without any foundation at all. So things get really thin. And so I try to help people to understand that, that there is no real objective meaning. There is no real basis for justice. And love just becomes a chemical reaction,

and that's it. So God becomes really important, I think. That actually is a point that I talk about in my new book. I don't talk about it the way you do, but it is inevitable that if you think a little bit past the surface, of life, which a lot of people don't want to, and we live in a society that's not only distracted, but it is positively encouraging distraction from thinking deeper. If you go deeper than a millimeter, there's going to be something, somebody paid a lot of money to get you to look over here, to get you to look over there. What you're talking about here is at the heart of everything, right? Is that if you think about life, if you dare to think about life, whatever you claim

is important is unimportant if there's no God. But most people, they don't think that far. They think love is important, feeling good is important, caring about people is important. You go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But how do you get there without God? And they, I think most people just think, well, you just do, or I haven't thought about it, or my friends don't think about it. So I guess the question is, how do you get people to think about that?

I mean, if somebody, if life is good, I don't know that if life is good, somebody would pick up a book called questioning God because they would say, well, why do I, I don't have any questions. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that I kind of encourage people to do with the book is that if they are in conversations with other people where someone brings up a question like that. It's just to hand him a copy of the book and say, hey, this book addresses that very question that you asked. Maybe we can read that together and look at it because I think you're right. People aren't going to pick up the book on their own, but I think that we can sort of be people that that sort of usher people into the conversation. Well, as I say, when I looked at the book, I thought this is a guy who in many ways thinks like me.

And what I mean by that is that I do think sometimes people who are trying to communicate the faith, they get very theological and they assume that every – this is like the chic thing, right? Everybody says like, well, if you're not a believer, you're a seeker, that's baloney. I'm here to say most people that I've ever known, including myself, we're drifters, we're floaters. We are not seeking. If life becomes really troubled, you might begin to seek. But otherwise, you're distracted, you're floating, you're looking for the next thing, the next good time, the next whatever it is. You're not a seeker.

So how do you get to those people that aren't seeking, but you know and I know in their hearts they are seeking? They're just not mentally seeking. Now, before we get more deeply into this, I want to talk about who you are and your credentials. You, it says, you serve as an area director for Search Ministries in Houston, Texas. It sounds like what you do at search is very similar to what you're getting at in this book. And so there's 15 questions in the book, Eric, and they aren't just questions that I came up with. These are the questions that I'm getting asked. And various staff across the country with search are getting asked.

So what we try to do at search is to create opportunities where people can ask their questions about God or Christianity or the Bible. And just to be honest about it, I mean, we love people to say, I think this whole God thing is a complete crock. So I think the Bible is just a bunch of fables. I think Jesus was a myth. We love people to put that on the table and to begin conversations. And so we're in those kinds of conversations every day, and the questions that are represented in the book are simply the questions that we get asked. And I think one of the things about this book, Eric, is that there are a lot of books that answer questions, but they're almost offensive in a way. And they have a sort of a tone to them like, you're stupid, listen to what I'm saying.

And this book really takes a different tone. It's taking a tone that says, hey, hey, you're asking this question. It's a reasonable question. Let's see if we can give you a reasonable answer to that question. Well, that's beautifully put. And it's one of the reasons, again, that I was attracted to the book and to you having you on because I thought I know so many people who live in this place. They're not, it's not like they have some profound intellectual objections to the faith.

They're kind of floating through life. they have some semi-objections, but it's just not enough to drive them to look more deeply. And those are the people that if you can get them to think a little bit or to talk a little bit, I think they are often surprised by what they hadn't thought about. I mean, that was my case, and this is, you know, 30 years ago. But I remember realizing how little I knew and how little I had actually thought about this stuff, that I had bought into the cliches of the culture unthinkingly because we're really encouraged to do that. And so if you can, through a little love and a little care, show somebody that maybe they're missing something,

maybe there's something they hadn't thought of, that's actually a very effective evangelistic tool, as opposed to saying, you know, hey, I think I have the answer to who the Nephilim were in Genesis. and I can prove that the Bible is, you know, it, it, it, it's, some people look at us, I think, sometimes rightly, like, you're just a religious person and I am totally bored by what you're saying, and could I go away now, please, because I've got, I want to talk about something else. Before we go to a break, I want to say that you, you've also pastor to church. I have. And before that, you were a tennis pro?

That as well. Now what, John, John, why have you been hiding that? Why have you been hiding that for me and my audience? What are you ashamed of? You were a tennis pro. You made money off of people like me who aren't that good at tennis. How long, how did you get to be a tennis pro? Where did you grow up?

Well, I grew up in Central California and got to play a lot of tennis there, ended up playing collegiately, and there went off from there. And, you know, I tried a little bit in the, you might say the minor leagues of pros. I was never, you know, quite good enough to make it with the big boys. So you played collegially. I played collegially. We'll be right back. I'm talking to John Hopper.

Questioning God is the book. Questioning God. Hey, folks, I've got to tell you a secret about relief factor that the father, son, owners Pete and Seth Talbot, have never made a big deal about. But I think it is a big deal. I really do. They sell the three-week quick start pack for just 1995 to anyone struggling from pain, like neck, shoulder, back, hip, or knee pain.

1995, about a dollar a day. But what they haven't broadcasted much is that every time they sell a three-week quick start, they lose money. In fact, they don't even break even until about four to five months after if you keep ordering it. Friends, that's huge. People don't keep ordering relief factor month after month if it doesn't work. So yes, Pete and Seth are literally on a mission to help as many people as possible deal with their pain. They really do put their money where their mouths are. So if you're in pain from exercise or even just getting older, order the three-week quick start for 1995. Let's see if we can get you at a pain too. Go to relieffactor.com. Relieffactor.com or call 800, 500, 500, 8384, 800, 500, 8384 relief factor.com. I use it. It works.

Hey, folks, if you could make money off of abortion or pornography, would you do it? I hope the answer is no. But I want to tell you, Robert Netsley, the founder of Inspire Insight.com, he was the president of his local pro-life pregnancy center when he discovered that he owned investments, in three companies manufacturing abortion drugs. Well, God helped him to see that he was making money from abortion, pornography, LGBT activism, and the list goes on. And that's why he created Inspireinsight.com. Inspireinsight.com gives you instant access to biblical values data on over 23,000 stocks,

mutual funds, and ETFs so you can invest to the glory of God. You need to go to InspireInsight.com today and screen your 401. K's, IRAs, and other investment accounts. I did, and I was shocked. Now I'm able to clean out the junk and invest in companies actually doing good things. Go to inspireinsight.com today and register for free. That's inspireinsight.com. Go there.

Outside the rain. Oh, hello. I didn't see you come in. I'm Eric Metaxas. I am interviewing the author of a new book. It is called Questioning God. I actually like the cover, and I do judge books by their covers. oftentimes. You can tell that this is a little bit more sophisticated than your average apologetics

book. It's by John Hopper, my guest. Now, some of these questions, it says questioning God answers to questions worth asking. So what are some of those questions? Can we know the truth about anything, especially about God? Tons of people have that question. Like people act like, I know about truth. And, you know, it's a reasonable question. What do you even mean by truth? Questions like, having Christians caused more harm than good? Some Christians have, and I can give you their names. Why should I trust what the Bible has to say? These are all reasonable questions, and they are answered in this book,

questioning God by my guest, John Hopper. So, John, let's start with the, this is like the question that everyone asks. So there's nothing particularly original by you're putting it in this book. Most of the questions in here are pretty original. But this is the classic. If God is real, why is there so much evil and suffering? That's chapter 10. All right.

What do we say? Well, I think, you know, first of all, we have to look at, are there any overriding reasons for the pain and suffering that might occur in life? So you take, for example, let's say that you have a child that's running in the street, and that you yell at the child, hey, get out of the street, there's a car coming, and the child doesn't respond. So you as a parent, you run into the street and you grab the child's arm, maybe you dislocate their shoulder, you drag them across the street, they get sort of bruised up. Would CPS be coming after you in that situation? I would say no, because there are overriding reasons, right? So now, if you just did that, if you just dragged your kid in the street and you dislocated their shoulder without those overriding reasons, then there would not be sort of justification for it. So, but if there is a car coming, then I think there is justification for it. And so I think when it comes to the question of evil and suffering and why God would allow it, the question is, would God have any overriding reasons or not?

If he does have significant overriding reasons, then I'd say, well, then there's a justification for him allowing evil and suffering. If he doesn't, then I would say, well, you know, we got a problem with God. Well, my, I mean, I think because I've been on both sides of most of these questions, I'm familiar with people's kind of huffy objections, even to an answer like that. They'd say, come on, like, if God is God, why does he have to create a universe where he has to dislocate my shoulder? That doesn't make any sense. If I was God, you know, and that's a reasonable question. And for me, what? it ultimately comes down to, and maybe you can just respond to this, is that do I believe God is God? Do I

trust God? In other words, if I believe, I think this is the ultimate thing, is that God knows things that I don't know, that I can't know, and I have to somehow trust that he is my heavenly loving father. He loves me so much that I can trust him, even when things go horribly bad, and I go through pain and suffering, I can believe that he is on my side. He is with me in the middle of this. So there's the conundrum in a sense, right? You're being asked to trust someone that you're not sure he exists. If he exists, you're not sure why you should believe he's on your side. That to me is the conundrum, and it's not easily answerable. Yeah, I mean, I think even if God does have overriding reasons, it's not that he's sharing those with us all the time, right?

So there is that element of just saying, okay, I'm going to trust that whatever those reasons are, they're good reasons. So now, ultimately, I think we want a God that would have reasons beyond our understanding. So, you know, one of the examples I use in the book is I like to think of God as a grandmaster, you know, a chess player. He's going to make moves that I don't understand. So if I could understand. understand every one of his moves who wouldn't be that much of a grandmaster. So, because I'm not a very good chess player. So, so just sort of looking at God in that way,

okay, God, I don't understand this move. I don't understand your overriding reasons, but I'm going to trust that you've got this in hand. And I mean, I'm right there with you, of course, but I can also hear the voices of people saying that sounds like delusion, that you want to believe God is a grandmaster and he's 12 steps ahead. And I don't know why I should believe that. So I think maybe what I'm getting at is that what you do in this book and what I've done in some of my books and some of my conversations is you're trying to draw people along into a conversation, but you can't prove what you're saying. And the idea that maybe some Christians are looking for, like I can prove, I think there are things we can prove and there are things we can't prove. I can't prove to my wife or daughter or my parents that I love them. I can't prove it because even the concept of proof is a muddy concept, right?

It's not like a mathematical proof. And so I think by having conversations like the one that you're really provoking in this book, you're helping people take these baby steps toward understanding something that you can't. It's not like a slam dunk. I mean, I guess whenever, if you read an apologetics book that goes for the slam dunk, I mean, I actually read one written by somebody I consider a friend at this point, but his response to evil and suffering was kind of like, was it pan gloss in Voltaire's Candide? You know, like, hey, this is like the best of all worlds.

And the reason the Lord sends people to hell to suffer eternal torments is a wonderful thing. And it's a wonderful thing. In other words, lacking the sensitivity in a sense to see how people would say, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I, what do you, are you not getting the human side of this, the emotional side of this? So it is kind of complex. And I think it's important for us, which you do in this book questioning God, to honor people's questions and to say, listen, I can't prove this to you.

And I hear what you're asking me or I'm trying to. That's right. I don't think I present anything in this book that says, hey, this is a proof. In fact, I actually say the opposite there. I say, here's some evidence that I think you should consider. And I think there's some preponderance of evidence. And I think in regards to the question of evil and suffering error, I think oftentimes it is asked as an emotional cry more than an intellectual question.

And so when I'm addressing people, I'll ask them, when they bring this question up, I'll say, are you just asking that theoretically or philosophically? Are you asking that because there's been some hard things that have gone on in your life? And many times, the vast majority of times, they start telling me about a child that died, a brother that died, a friend that died. And the conversation just goes to that. We never even get back to the original question. Because people, when they ask that question, we're simply asking it to know whether I cared or not about their particular circumstances. And we can forget that as people who provide answers to questions.

We can forget that sort of emotional side, personal side. But I think that's the point, right? In other words, what they really want, the piece of information they're really looking for is, do you care? When they get that, maybe then we can move on. But that's what they're looking for. And so if somebody is very, you know, Asperger's engineering super brain, they just give you this like hyper-rationalistic kind of answer. A lot of people like, I'm not interested in whatever you're talking about, I'm not interested. What I'm interested in is, doesn't it break your heart that they're,

there's evil in the world. Doesn't it break your heart that I lost a child or that I went through this? Because if it doesn't break your heart, I'm not interested in talking to you. And I really think that that's a big part of being an effective apologist for the faith is can we listen and can we respond to the actual question? And that's what you're saying. Well, that's right. I think that's what we are trying to dig for. What is the question behind the question? Sometimes when someone ask a question, you can simply say something like, now if you only had one question to ask God, would that be it? And if they say yes, you say, why would that be your one question? And sometimes you get below the surface there and you sort of see, oh, well, this is why they had this happen

in their life. This went on. And when we begin to get that, then we can be able to sort of answer people's questions a whole lot better. When I had an experience with God, a miraculous experience with God, a lot of my previous questions evaporated. In other words, it's not, it's not that they evaporated completely, but they no longer were as important. I thought, I can live without knowing the answer to that one clearly, or because I've gotten a more, I've gotten a more important question answered. God is real. God knows me. And then all the questions I have, I figure, well, I can, I can get to them. And I think that's part of it. And that's, I think, part of what you're trying to do in this book. Folks, the book is questioning God, answers to questions worth asking. John Hopper is the author and my guest, and we'll

be right back. Hey, folks, you hear me talk about food for the poor. They're a tremendous organization. We vetted them. We work with them. They feed hungry and malnourished kids in the third world in this hemisphere in Caribbean and Latin American countries. And we want to exhort you right now to go to my website metaxis talk.com. Click on the give-life banner right at the top, a gift of $88. You don't have to give that much, but if you can, $88 provides a hungry kid with food for an entire year. Think about that. And water for life. I'll give you the phone number. It is 844-863 Hope. 844-863 Hope. We are grateful to you. 844-863 Hope or metaxisot.com. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Biden administration has caused a financial crisis and they have no clue how to fix it.

Oil prices have skyrocketed. And when oil prices go up, the cost of transportation and shipping spikes, leading the prices of goods to rise. And when we're already seeing record inflation, that's the last thing we need. Our economy is in trouble and you need to take steps to protect yourself. If all your money is tied up in stocks, bonds, and traditional markets, you are vulnerable. Gold is one of the best ways to protect your retirement. No matter what happens, you own your gold. It is real, it is physical, it's always been valuable since the dawn of time. Legacy precious metals is the company I trust for investing in gold. They can help you roll your retirement account into a gold-backed IRA where you still own the physical gold.

They can also ship gold and precious metals safely and securely to your house. Call Legacy at 866-528-1903 or visit them online at Legacy. PM Investments.com. Hey, folks, welcome back. It's the Erkmataxis show. I will be playing the role of Erkmataxis until we can get somebody better. The book that I'm discussing with the author, whom I'm interviewing, is questioning God, the author John Hopper.

John, tell me more about this ministry. Is it called Search Ministries? Where would I find it online? Yeah, it is Search Ministries, and you can go to Searchnational.org, as that's where you'll find it online. Search national. Searchnational.org. Dot org. Yep.

And we're in over 20 cities, so across the country. And actually, search has been around for about 45 years. We've been somewhat of a quiet ministry sort of behind the scenes because we're about relationships. So we're not about sort of, you know, jumping up in front of a big crowd. We're about sort of developing relationships even on a one-on-one basis. But we do a lot of things in the cities where we're at where people can gather again to sort of ask their questions about God. So you mentioned sort of brought up sort of my

tennis past and my wife is actually a tennis pro as well. So there's this club that we're at often. And so for example, this last fall, we know a number of members at the club who are Christians. And so we gathered them together and we say, hey, we want you to invite your fellow members who aren't believers that maybe are skeptics to these lunches. And we held these lunches we had about, you know, 70 people there, so maybe 40 of the so of them were, you know, sort of not on board with the Christianity thing. And we just had an open conversation where people could ask any questions they wanted. And it's fascinating what, you know, sort of people bring up. And really, they brought up the questions that you find in the book. And it's interesting to me, you said you're

in 20 cities. I mean, so I hope people will look you up. You said it's searchnational.org. Yes. That's right. And do you, do you? people in the various cities around the country, do they do similar things? Is that the idea is create events like that? They do. They create events like that. So one of our staff members here in Houston is Bruce Matthews, who's an NFL Hall of Famer. And he does gatherings at his home, just fireside chats, brings guys in. And you bring your own lawn chair. He fixes barbecue for you, get to hang out with an NFL Hall of Famer and have conversations about God in life. It's interesting really how many people, as we were describing earlier, they're floating through life, but if you get them at the right moment, they do have questions.

They just rarely find a place where it's safe to ask the question or to bring up the subject. And I think that's part of the problem. I think I've said this a zillion times, not literally, but I've said it scores hundreds of times that there are people. people that will not ask a certain question of a certain Christian because they know, if I bring that up, I'm going to get it with both barrels. They're going to be at me with this or with that. And I'm just, and I really do feel maybe the metaphor that I have used or the image I've used is, it's kind of like the difference between inviting somebody to your home for a meal, which might be intimidating and hardcore and they don't want to get trapped in your house.

And it versus in the backyard, there's some potential. data chips and you say, well, you have a seed, whatever, because they have the freedom to kind of get up and go any time. And because they have the freedom, because you're not doing the full court press, they will probably stay. And it seems to me that's part of the approach of search ministries. You get, you get that. You get where people are. Exactly. Yeah, I think so. I think people don't want to get, people don't want to sort of be looked down to. They just want to be in a conversation. And so, you know, that means oftentimes, sort of leaving things on the table. In other words, I may know a whole lot more about a subject than I might share with a person, right? So, but if I tell them everything, it's way too much. So, and then just to offer things tentatively to say, you know, here's some ways that I think about it. You know, what do you think about it? Do you think I'm weird? Do you think I'm off base? And sort of invite them back in the conversation. If you do that and if we do that, then, boy, we can, we can really get some places with, with people that people like that kind of a conversation.

I was going to say, I think part of why I write a lot of my books, too, that aren't on the nose about the faith. I mean, I've written some books that are on the nose about the faith, but my biographies, I write them hoping that somebody who's maybe not on board with where I am, theologically, would just say, wow, that's like an amazing period of history, and the book is well written enough that I actually want to read it. And somehow, while they're alone quietly reading, these questions can come to the fore in a safe place. place. And I really think that that's a big part of what we can do as Christians is just give people that opportunity to chew on something without risking, losing face or whatever. So sometimes I think we have this bad model of like debate. I'm going to debate you into a corner and I'm going to win. And it seems to me that you never win. Even when you win, you lose because

those people just think, what an idiot. And they walk away. And maybe you feel cool because you scored a But that's not God's heart. God's heart is to actually reach somebody whom he loves. And that's obviously what you're doing. Is this your first book along these lines, John? Yes, it is. It is my first book. But it's really the culmination of a whole lot of years.

So it's funny. We were just doing some moving recently, and I found a box of a paper. I wrote an eighth grade about the reliability of scripture. I was doing this a long time ago. Eighth grade. Eighth grade? What kind of a freak were you, man? I know. That is so great. That's so funny and cute. But the reliability of scripture.

Well, that leads us to our next question. We are not going to have time in this segment. But when we come back, I want to ask you, the first part of the books about God, second part, Christians, third part about the Bible. I want to ask you about the Bible. Why should I trust what the Bible has to say? How can a rash, person except the miracle stories in the Bible. These are classic questions. We'll be right back with the author of Questioning God. John Hopper, don't go away. Hey, folks, if you listen to this program, of course, you've heard me talk at infinitum about my pillow and my friend Mike Lindell. Well, Mike has just announced that you will receive one of his books, and the book is next level insane. It is called What Are the Odds from Crack Addict to CEO? It's his story. You will receive it

absolutely free with any purchase using the promo code Eric. Did you hear that? It would be a great time, by the way, to buy his warm and wonderful My Slippers. For a limited time, he's offering 50% off my slippers. We all wear them in my extended family. My Slippers. Check it out. 50% off. Go to mypillar.com. Click on the radio listeners square and use promo code Eric. You'll all. also get deep discounts on all my pillow products, including some overstock products, such as individual towels, blankets, comforters, and much more. Or call 800, 978, 3057. That's 800, 978 3057.

And use the promo code, Eric. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to the author of Questioning God, answers to questions worth asking. John Hopper, okay, here's the question. Why should I trust what the Bible has to say? Why? Yeah. You know, I think there's kind of three sub-question.

that are actually involved in that, Eric. So the first question is like, well, we got to know whether what we have today is even what was originally written, right? Because if what was originally written has been changed and altered through the centuries, then yeah, we shouldn't believe in it. So I think the first question is, is it authentic? Like, has it been copied well? Has it been brought to us well? And I think there's a lot of great evidence in that regard. So the manuscript evidence, we're able to compare old copies. And, you know, we see that there hasn't been changes over time, and we can be confident that what we had today, what was originally written. But that's not the only question, right? Because what was originally written could have been

false to begin with, right? So the second question is it's about accuracy. Like, do we know that the things that are written there are historically accurate? And one of the great things about the Bible, Eric, is that it puts itself out there. In other words, it's not just talking about sort of mythological events or here's a nice little parable story, although there are parables in the Bible, but it's placing itself in the midst of historical context, where the real people and real places and real events, and you can go fact-check those. And so what's one of the things I do in the book is I just sort of lay out in a number of places where the Bible can be fact-checked. So we can look outside the Bible to see, yes, these people really live. These events actually happen. So I think

it's authentic. I think it's accurate. And then that leaves us with the question is, well, how do we know it's from God, right? Because it could just be history. And in that case, I think what we see is that what is represented for us is the story where there are miracles, where there is fulfilled prophecy, and that gives us a sense that, hey, maybe there's something more to this book. Maybe there is a God behind it, and maybe I ought to take a better look at it. I think there are things in the Bible that if people read it, it will freak them out because it is, it is, um, some of it is very powerful. But it's, what's interesting is that the Bible is so variegated. There is so, there are so many different genres that, that if you want to dismiss it, if you want to take cheap pot shots, you can,

you can do that really easily. You just say, well, there's a, you expect me to believe in a talking snake next. Um, but if people are willing to go deeper, I actually think, because it was my experience, that you'll be astonished. at what you didn't know at the historical evidence. And then you at least have to say, well, there is an amazing amount of historical evidence and extra biblical evidence, evidence outside the Bible, that the Bible is not blowing smoke.

And you have to at least consider that. You have to say, well, this is interesting. It's at least a lot more complicated than I thought. I guess the classic question that people ask as well is, you know, I'm a good person. Isn't that enough? That's question 12 in here. If God is loving, why would he send anyone to hell? I often think Christians can be very cavalier in the way they answer to that question, the same way about evil and suffering. So what are some of the things we can think about along these lines? Well, I think you're right. I think people can be cavalier.

I mean, if hell is real, that's a very sobering reality, right? So it shouldn't be a sort of a reality that we're sort of brandishing around as if, you know, it's just going to a bad concert or something like that, right? I mean, so it's, it's eternal and it's, and it's awful, right? So if we are sharing about hell, right, we should have this sort of attitude of sort of compassionate warning. And I think that was the attitude that Jesus had. So Jesus speaks of hell more than anyone else, which I think is a little bit shocking to people. You brought up, Eric, that if people got into the Bible, they may be surprised by some of the things that they read. One of the things that they would be surprised by, I think, is that Jesus speaks of hell more than anyone else.

But he's always speaking about as a warning. He has no desire that anyone would be there. And he says, you don't want to end up in that place. So let me show you a different way. Let me even provide a different way. Well, what's interesting is that the way Jesus and the old apostles talk about hell is also different than the way many Christians talk about it. In other words, you don't see Jesus or any of the apostles having a classic, like, you need to get right with God or you're

going to hell forever. Somehow, they don't, they just don't talk that way. And I'm always curious what has led the church historically into the place where people seem to think that's the approach. Yeah, I mean, I think that maybe the church that sometimes has used it as a marketing scare tactic, right? You better get right with God. You better get on our team or, you know, these are the consequences. But I think you're right. I don't think that scripture really paints it that way. Scripture seems to more paint it like, hey, here's a place you want to go. But on the way, there are some hazards. In fact, there's a cliff and a canyon you want to avoid. and here's a path to avoid that.

Here's a way to get to where you really want to get to. So yes, there is a warning of a canyon there that we can slip into, but there's also a great promise of a future with God. And I think it's really important that as Christians we are presenting not just the warning, but also the promise that God gives us. I think, or I suspect that one of the problems that we have today in communicating the faith, I mean, it goes back to your first question, you know, life is good, why be concerned with God? It's similarly that very few Americans, people in your orbits or my orbits,

have seen satanic evil, have seen suffering and misery that is pretty common throughout the history of humanity, that's pretty common around the world. Most of us haven't seen it. So there's really no incentive for us to wrestle with what is this? Why does evil exist? Is there an answer to this evil? We kind of have this genuinely false idea that things are okay. And I think that just because things may be okay in your orbit doesn't mean that they're okay in the rest of the world.

So in a sense, we've been so blessed that we've been so blessed that we've, take these things for granted. We don't understand that people have died so that we could be free, that people have died to share the good news of Jesus, which contributes to the ability to have a free society and so on and so forth, and that we're kind of living in this bubble, and that sometimes by looking at the horrors in the world and traveling to places where they exist, it gives us a more realistic view of the human condition and makes us more curious. about God or the existence of God. When we come back, folks, I'm talking to John Hopper.

The book is questioning God answers to questions worth asking. When you get the blues a jumpy rhythm makes you feel some fine. It'll shake all your trouble from your worded mind. Get rhythm. Folks, welcome back. I'm talking to the author John Hopper. His book is Questioning God Answers to Questions Worth Asking. These are all great questions, questions that I've asked a million.

times. I've discussed them with people a million times. And John, you, you deal with them head on. One of the questions, we've just got moments left, but will God judge people who have never heard of Jesus? That's a classic. It's a classic question. Now, I always love when people ask this question, Eric, because it tells me that they understand the message of Christianity. Christianity is saying that Jesus is the way and the truth to life. The means to have a relationship with God and to be with God in eternity. So when people are asking that question, it means they've come to that place of understanding, right? So now, I think one of the, maybe the things that people don't understand or don't see is how much people really do know.

So I think God has given us a world where we ought to be saying there's got to be something sort of beyond nature. So this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, world when we start to look at, say, the fine, fine tuning of the universe, it's too remarkable. So, there has to be a God out there. And then we've got this sort of thing called conscience that keeps bugging us. So, and telling this, this is right and this is wrong, and this is love and this is not love. And so, so that ought to be sort of giving us clues. And there's ways I think, Eric, we can be sort of culpably ignorant. So maybe we ought to know about Jesus, but we haven't responded to the sort of the clues along the way. So my wife leaves me a note on the kitchen counter saying,

hey, go into the bedroom because there's a gift for you and I see the note, but I never go in the bedroom. Do I have a responsibility for having known what's in the bedroom? I think I do because I saw the note in the first place. And so maybe there are people who have not heard of the name of Jesus, but the question is, did they know enough? And I think what we see scripturally is that people have known enough. And if you're asking this question, Eric, really, you're not in that position. So even if we're unsure about the people that haven't heard about Jesus, if you're asking this question, you're not one of those people, right? So there is still a responsibility that you have to respond to the message of Christ. There are many people, I think, that when you talk about that,

you know, how will God judge people who've never heard of Jesus? It is confusing. to them, and there's a lot to be said on that. But I always think to myself, if you have actually yourself met Jesus, if you claim to be a Christian, it's possible that you're not sufficiently acquainted with the evil from which he saves us and the sacrifice that he made. And I think it's very easy for us in the evangelical church in the United States in particular to say, yeah, I believe this and this and this and this.

But more recently, I'm challenging myself and others to say, do you really believe it? How much do you believe it? By the skin of your teeth? Do you know this is true? Do you know what he did? Do you believe he defeated death? If you believe that, you're going to live your life differently. You're going to live your life fearlessly, joyfully.

It's kind of inevitable. And the fact that you don't live that way maybe means you don't really believe it. So, I mean, I guess the last question, we just have 30 seconds, would be like, so what do you say to somebody who they think they believe it, but they don't seem to be living like they believe it? Well, I think what you say is just right. So just because we say we believe something, that's not really sort of the telltale measure.

The tale-tale measure is are we willing to sort of live out what we believe? And if Jesus is the only way, then we ought to want to follow what he has to say, and we ought to want to let other people know about who he is. That makes sense. Makes sense to me. John Hopper, really great to get to know you. Congratulations on the book Questioning God. And I'm excited about search.

Is it Search National, you said? Yeah. Website is searchnational.org. Searchnational.org. I hope people will check it out. God bless you. Thanks for your time. Great.

Great to be with you, Eric.