The Eric Metaxas Show - Jon Tyson

Episode Date: September 24, 2020

What kind of "resistance" is godly? Jon Tyson tackles that tricky problem using examples from his new book, "Beautiful Resistance," including the life and actions of Dietrich Bonhoeffer during World War II.

Welcome to the Eric Mataxis show. Please keep your arms of legs inside the car at all times. This is your final warning. Now here's your host, Mr. Thrill Ride himself, Eric Mataxis. Hey, folks, this is the Eric Mataxis show where I get to talk to people that I think are very interesting, and you get to listen in. And if you're following us on YouTube, the Eric Mataxis show channel, some of our programs are on TBN. It's just a wonderful host of options that you have. But today, and this is particularly close to my heart, I get to talk to a friend who's a pastor here in New York City.

Some of you know him. He's been on before. His name is John Tyson. He's the pastor and church planner that is currently the head of the church of the city here in New York City, originally from Adelaide, Australia, which is why he has the non-New York accent. John Tyson, welcome. What's up, mate? How's it going? Thank you for having me on the show.

See, there you go. What's up, mate? That's not normal for New Yorkers. So right away, I know I'm talking for somebody from down under. But you've been here a long time. You've been here, what, 20 years? No, so I've been in the U.S. 23 years. I've been in New York City, 15.

15 years in Manhattan, which means I'm almost a New Yorker. I'm getting close. Getting close. Yeah, I think another week, and you're officially a New Yorker. I want to talk to you about, well, first of all, you're a church planter, which is different from being just a pastor. In other words, you've started a movement of churches. Tell us a little bit about that, particularly with regard to New York City. Yeah, I remember very clearly, we've just celebrated the anniversary of 9-11.

And, you know, a lot of people, I was actually down in Tennessee at the time when 9-11 happened. And a lot of folks' attention sort of turned towards New York. And so I came up after 9-11, basically to visit Brooklyn Tab and visit their prayer meeting just to pray for the city. And as it happened, I stayed in the Double Tree Hotel in Times Square and ended up staying up all night walking around the Hell's Kitchen neighborhood, which is where I've lived for the last six years. And I just fell in love of the place. And I remember just thinking, dear God, is there a way that you can put me in New York to serve you here? I loved it. I loved everything about it.

Energy, pace, diversity, people. And so when I got a little bit older, I was just a youth pastor then. And I started thinking about what the next season was. New York had been in my heart the whole time. And as a Protestant, I remember thinking, whose permission do you need if you don't have a Pope to go and start a church? And I realized you didn't need a whole lot of permission.

What you needed was willingness and resources. And so, yeah, in 2005, a group of friends sold their homes, did the book of Acts, Acts chapter two, shared their resources, started a Bible study and that grew into what we've done the last 15 years here. So it's been a total joy. I love New York. If people want to find you on the internet and your church movement, where do they go? It's a great URL.

It's church. com. How is that possible? Church. dot NYC, that's it? that's it that's unbelievable who did you have to pay

did you go to al go to al gore and like slip him a crisp c note when he invented the internet and you said sir can i have church not nyc and that's how it happened that's pretty close to how it happened

that's unbelievable I love the idea when corruption I just love the idea when corruption and bribery serves the gospel it's a wonderful thing church.n. Okay, now, John, the reason I have you on today is because you have written another book. The title of this book, I love this title, Beautiful Resistance, The Joy of Conviction in a Culture of

Compromise. It's a funny thing to think, you know, when you were here way back when saying, oh, Lord, would it be possible for me to, we're all like that, right? We think, oh, Lord, would it be possible for me to serve you here? meanwhile the Lord is saying hey what do you think I made you for I need you in New York and if you obey me I will use you there and he has used you here for a long time and I just want to be clear that I'm a I'm a fan of yours and what God has been doing through you so what is this book the new book beautiful resistance the joy of conviction in a culture of compromise talk about that yeah well it's actually you're actually in the back of this book it's it's it opens and closes with a scene from Bonhofer's life. I start with Bonhofer when he's running Finkinvald and building a movement of resistance.

And at the end of it, with Bonhofer in New York. And so the book sort of framed by how do we build a counterculture of discipleship when it seems like there's just so much compromise. And I wanted to pick the specific practices of spiritual resistance that are often neglected, but are very potent in our walk with, God today. So it's not a devotional book. It's not sort of a pastoral book. It's a little bit of a it's a colder discipleship. And so I address things like worship must resist idolatry, hunger must resist apathy. That's a chapter on fasting. I talk about the importance of

hospitality and the culture of fear. So it's designed to make the church provocative salt and light. Jesus said in the gospel is if the salt loses its saltiness, it's good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. And so it's sort of a call to be that provocative sermon on the Mount community. And a lot of it is just basically stories and things I've learned pastoring in a pretty secular place like New York City. Well, exactly. You can't fake it here as easily as you can, you know, in places like Dallas or wherever, where it's a culture of Christianity. here it's a culture of secularism and many people are openly anti-Christian and so you're forced to really count the cost and you just mentioned a chapter on fasting but I think you pronounced it fasting

yeah fasting is extra spiritual which means when you do it it comes with greater rewards in heaven so you can fast if you want or you can fast and that's what I'm pushing on the book I have had a spiritual discipline of fasting between meals for decades now, and it doesn't seem to be very effective. But I do it every day, you know, without, it's become a habit. Between meals, I typically, I'm in a fasting mode. We can joke around, but I think part of what I love about you and what I love about this book is that you present what some people think of as radical Christianity as Christianity. These are the basics. This is not extra credit. This is the basic way of following Jesus.

And many people in America have been lulled into a state that they think that they really don't need, they don't need to take it very seriously. You know, as long as they're not doing anything horrific that's good enough, they're covered by grace. Bonhofer, of course, talks about cheap grace. And he says, no, that's quite the contrary. That's taking the infinitely expensive sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for granted. Nothing could be more horrible than that. So you really are talking about what we need to do if we really believe. And I guess it calls us short, you know, it draws us up short and said,

do I really believe what I claim to believe? And I think that people will be blessed by this. But initially maybe they think that, oh, that's too much for me. Yeah, it's interesting this. we're in a culture of such lukewarmness that anything that even resembles biblical Christianity is dismissed as legalism. And it's not legalism. It's simply discipleship. It's very hard in the culture of self-fulfillment to preach a gospel of self-denial and gain a hearing. Yet, that's what Jesus says. And he doesn't say it in some sort of morose, ascetic sense. He says,

this is the way to find life. Life is found in poverty of spirit. That's who gets into the kingdom of heaven. Life is found in getting a vision of God and other people where our eyes are off of ourselves. And so I think it is important that the church come back, particularly in contentious moments like this, to its core calling of fidelity and passion to Jesus in radical discipleship. Otherwise, what's the option? What's the option? I mean, this is the moment the church needs to return. to Jesus with all of her mind. Well, the title of the book is Beautiful Resistance, and I think people need to understand that it is beautiful.

The subtitle is the joy of conviction in a culture of compromise. There is something very attractive about this. Don't be fooled and think that, oh, this is difficult. This is what we were made for. We'll be right back. I'm talking to my friend John Tyson. The book is Beautiful. Resistance. Don't go away.

Hi, folks. These uncertain times can cause uncertain gut slowdown. Worry and fear can recapture. can wreak havoc on our digestion, making it hard to feel optimum. Bloading, less energy, and occasional constipation can slow you down in your daily activity. Try LifeChange T to GetT.com. Life Change T can help get things moving so you can get that boost of energy you need. Life Change T helps protect and defend your health from intruders.

It's a weird time right now with all the uncertainty, so gear up and defend your health. Where do you go to purchase? log on to get the tea.com, that's get the tetea.com. The specials are on the front page and we have numerous supplements to help combat intruders. It's time to take charge of our health and to feel better in life. It's time to live. Again, get thetie.com. That's get thetie.com. Get thetot.com. It is so worth it. Get the ttea.com. Folks, I got some embarrassing news to share with you, but, you know, know what? This is just the kind of a show where I don't care. I'm willing to lay my heart, you know, on the line. Here's the issue. Mike Lindell with my pillow, you may, you may notice

that I have a bobble hell of head of him near me. He's here to remind all of us that when you go to mypillow.com, you get whopping discounts if you use the code Eric. Okay. Now, there are a lot of people who haven't done that and we have your names here. And Chris, Ann Albin pointed out to me that there's like three pages of you whose first name is Eric. You yourself. I mean, that's humiliating for me that even though your name is Eric, you're still not willing to use the code Eric. I mean, if you don't want to use it because it's my name, use it because it's your name. But the point is that I see who you are and I just feel humiliated by this.

Please go to go to mypillar.com. It's okay, Mike. It's going to be okay. Go to my pillow.com. Use the code, Eric. You're going to get whopping savings and really high quality products. Did I mention that? Thank you.

Hey there, folks. Welcome back. I'm talking to my friend John Tyson. He is a pastor and a church planter right here in New York City. Don't let the down under accent fool you. He has been here for quite some time. And he has a new book out. I'm really delighted, John, that you've written this book.

The title is Beautiful Resistance, The Joy of Conviction, in a culture of compromise. We were talking a moment ago about fasting. That's something that I hadn't done for a long time until very recently. And I rediscovered the secret joy because I think we think of it as something onerous. And perhaps initially, you know, in the first eight or 15 hours, it can be difficult. But then suddenly it opens up a door that we forgot existed. Talk a bit about fasting.

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. We live in a time of history where everybody but the church is talking about fasting. So you've got intermittent fasting. You've got people doing cleansers. And it's basically, you know, the culture understands there is a value in paying attention to our bodies. The goal of biblical fasting is to pay attention to our spirits. And the reason I think fasting is important right now. You know, there's that scene in the gospels where Jesus disciples, try and cast a demon out of the child and they're unable to. And then Jesus cast the demon out of the boy and the disciples say later, why could we do this? And he said, this kind only comes out through prayer and fasting. So it seems that God has arranged discipleship and his kingdom in such a way that some things will not be unlocked or broken through unless prayer and fasting are connected and a part of that. And so what did the teachers of the law and the disciples do before they couldn't, or while they couldn't cast a demon now, they had a theological debate about demon possession.

It says Jesus stumbles after the Mount of Transfiguration. He comes down, and they're all arguing about the law. And then Jesus comes along and casts out the demon. And so right now what we need is not people just with theology or opinions. We need people with power, actual power, to accomplish the will of God and see his kingdom break in. And I think fasting is one of those neglected, potent practices that do that. So I'm like you. Every time I fast, I hate it at first. But then it seems like the Spirit's voice is just louder.

God begins to convict me of things that have sort of been buried under the busyness of my life. So yeah, that's one of nine what I believe are very, very subversive but compelling practices that we need to restore as followers of Jesus in this moment. Well, it's a funny thing, John, because I know that you and I both agree that God wants us. us to act, not merely to hold intellectual theological principles in our heads, but to act in the power of the Holy Spirit to free people from demons, to free people from bad ideas. The Lord wants to use us. He has put us on this planet so that he can use us, and we can do nothing apart from him, apart from the Holy Spirit. But there are so many churches that they steer entirely clear of that.

They think, well, maybe I can feed the poor or something, but I don't want to get involved in anything that's overly spiritual. It makes me nervous. I'm glad you're not one of those people. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to be a follower of Jesus, to take Jesus seriously and not care about healing and freedom in all of its various forms. Jesus basically walked around, and any time he saw something, that didn't fit into God's kingdom agenda.

He confronted it and drove it out. And yes, so I agree. Sometimes there's a hesitation. Sometimes there's a passivity. I'm always blown away, by the way, the Bible interacts with both God's power and human will. The classic example is when Peter's in prison and he's sleeping between the guards

and an angel pokes him in the side, wakes him up, supernaturally frees him from his chains, opens the door for him. So this is a total. intervention of God. And yet when he gets to the house where they're all praying, he's locked out and can't get in. And so it's just, it's one of the funniest stories that shows the dynamic of interaction between God doing the supernatural and the impossible and us still being called to act.

So yeah, some Pentecostas are like, it's all miracles and glory and other people, it's all human action. But there is that partnership of divine activity working through us where we take responsibility for the time of history lived and the choices God has for us. Well, again, it's one of the reasons I appreciate you because there is a balance. And I think that you tend to find some people are afraid of anything supernatural, anything charismatic or Pentecostal or whatever. They've seen, let's say, excesses or they've seen bad teaching or bad action.

And so they say, I don't want anything to do with it, which is a tremendous, tremendous pity. But on the other hand, you find some people that are, they are sloppy and they're, give into their emotions more, they don't really, they don't seem to worry very much. They kind of dive into it like it's a, it's a hobby. And there's no question in my mind that we need good teaching on these kinds of things. I know, I probably mentioned to you my friend Ken Fish, you know, when you get really biblical teaching on what it is to confront the demonic and that the authority we have in Jesus, it's an exciting thing. You realize. that I'm just not living theoretically, that God wants to use me to further his kingdom,

to bring people to salvation. It's literally why we are here and why he created us. And much of the church doesn't seem to get it. So you do, at least in my estimation. And so it's why I'm glad you wrote this book, because I think God is calling the church right now to get serious. We wouldn't be going through these crazy things if God was, at least in part, trying to say to the church, okay, now are you ready? Let's go. Yeah, at the end of the book of Revelation, you know, the layers to see in church, which gets pulled up every now and then. But he says, you know, you think you're rich. You think you have need of nothing. But don't you know that you're poor, wretched, blind, and naked? And so Jesus gives them an accurate assessment of where they actually are.

But then he says, very, very lovingly, repent and return to me and you find life. And so I'm not trying to hold up a bunch of very, very harsh practices and beating everybody up with them. I'm like, hey, look, we're at a time of lukewarmness and decline. Repentance and resolve to follow Jesus with deeper conviction is the call, but the result of it again is life. There's a life in Christianity we actually ache for, and we're not realizing. and that's what Jesus is calling us back to. He's calling us back into lived experience of both intimacy with him and impact in the world. And so, yeah, the more we lean into that and don't get distracted by secondary issues, the better.

So, again, the title of the book is Beautiful Resistance, the Joy of Conviction in a Culture of Compromise. It must grieve you, especially being a pastor here in New York, to see how compromised a lot of so-called believers can be with regard to what they, taken on the internet or via Netflix or something that we're living in a culture suffused with ways to compromise and that we have to be more intentional in a way than we might have had to be in previous decades? Yeah, I mean, the number one war when it all comes down to it is simply a war for distraction. So I am grieved at sort of the consciously ungodly, practices that believe is partaking, you know, and in many ways our behavior is

too similar to the world for Jesus liking. But the root issue is Satan doesn't care what it is that gets your eyes off Jesus. I mean, if it's a game on your phone, he doesn't need you to become an adulterer if you just get distracted on your phone. I'm thinking of C.S. Lewis where he says, all the enemy wants to do is to edge you out of the light towards the darkness. So when the young tempter and screw tape letters says, you know, basically, I want to get my subject to commit a great sin. And he says, you don't need great sins. You just need trivial distractions. It has the same effect of separating from God.

So to me, the number one I teach people is pay attention. It's learning to be present, resisting distractions. The number one war is the war of our attention. I've noticed this. And sometimes the free market, which can be a way. wonderful thing delivers to us the very things that take us away from God. I mean, the ability to be able to look up anything on this handheld device, which is we call phones. But honestly, in some ways, it's wonderful. And in other ways, it is requiring a new level of self-discipline, which I haven't

seen yet in most people. I think we're coming to a place where people are going to realize And unless I take clear action against this, the temptation, it's like having a pack of cigarettes in your pocket and you're trying to quit smoking. It's probably not going to work if you're doing it that way. No, that's exactly. Yeah. I mean, so there's many components to what Jesus is teaching. And in the sermon on the Mount, it's sort of like apocalyptic wisdom literature. So it's like the end of the world and the kingdom of God is rushing into the present.

And it's not just moral commands or ethical commands. It's framed sort of in a wisdom tradition. And so there's many, many ways that we can honor Jesus and live with convictions by simply being wise in how we practice things. And certainly when it comes to media and particularly with how we're training our kids and the role in our families, this is one of the ways we can be distinct from the world. So you're fasting, absolutely. But literally being present is spiritual warfare in a culture of... Let's let's put a pin in it right there. We're going to come right back talking to John Tyson.

Folks, I'm talking to John Tyson. He's a pastor and church planner right here in New York City. We could almost wave, wave to each other. John, you have a new book out called Beautiful Resistance, The Joy of Conviction in a Culture of Compromise. And you were just talking about something that is very close to my heart, this idea of being present, of listening to something. rather than looking at your phone and saying, no, no, I'm listening. I'm listening while you're looking at your phone. This takes really intentional countercultural behavior at this point to do something like that. One way to frame it, I would say that's not at all religious in the language is to say it's about being polite. It's about having good manners. If you are really listening to someone, that is the polite thing to do. And in many cultures that aren't Christian at all, they acknowledge that. We as Christians ought to understand that we're called by God, not merely to be polite,

but as you put it, to be present. And I think that before the invention of phones, it was much easier. We're really facing a particular difficulty right now. Do you say anything in your book about practically speaking how we can be more present and honor people that we interact with? well yeah i think a part of it i have a chapter in there talking about um hospitality and talking about celebration and the chapter on hospitality says that we basically if if you're not creating an environment where somebody is truly welcome and you're putting away your agenda you're you're never

going to see the person you're just going to stereotype them you're just going to be drawn into all of the cliches and all the out of appearances and so i think that putting our devices away in creating that free and feel of space to listen to one another stories is super important. I've got a chapter on the Sabbath in there called Rest Must Resist Exhaustion. And I'm making the case for at least one day a week of having a boundary away and around technology so that we can actually enjoy God. So we can actually be with one another. We can see creation.

And, you know, I used to tell people all the time, the challenge of living in New York City is that everything you see is manmade, including. nature, the nature is sculpted by a man, unless you go right up to inward to inward hill park, I guess. But it's even worse. Well, wait a minute. I have to interrupt you to explain to people who don't understand. Central Park, which is two and a half miles long, a half a mile wide. This vast tract of wilderness is, as you say, sculpted. I mean, not every bit of it, but most of it was sculpted, some of it, to look wild. some of it. So it is kind of funny that even this huge park, as you say, was rather beautifully sculpted,

and that that is an issue in a way if everything around us is man-made. Yes, so I used to tell people all the time, one of the keys to thriving in New York City is you have to get out of the city where everything you see has been touched by man and just get back into nature. You get to be present with God where you're out of control. and that's where we recover the sense of awe and wonder. But now it's even worse because it's not everywhere you look, you see what's touched by a man.

It's everything is in your hand. The global trauma of humanity is like a trickle charge dripping into your system all day long. And if you want a healthy soul, you're going to put boundaries around that. Our spirits were not designed to take in a slow, constant diet of human trauma from around the globe.

And so having a bounder, like practicing the Sabbath and putting these things away is a weekly reset. It's a weekly reminder celebrating on the Sabbath, the good things that God's doing. It sort of changes our heart and our focus and our posture and sends us back into the week with full hearts and boundaries. And again, being countercultural isn't that hard at this time of history because things are so broken. I always remember what Andy Kraut said.

He said, to be a radical as easy, give away 10% of your mind. money and don't watch TV. And if you do those two things, you'll live differently than 99% of people in America. And it's so true. So it's these simple but potent practices that mark the people of God as wise, present, fruitful disciples at this time of history. I've often said that the least that we can do is forbid phones from our tables when we're having a meal. That is to me the very least that we can do. And most people aren't doing that. Sometimes I don't do that. And I think to myself, that's really basic. And if you start with something like that, so that, you know, you don't need to have access to the universe every second.

You don't need to. And by the way, that's where we Christians differ, because we can say, God declares it. In other words, God has my back. I don't have to worry, but what if, what if I need to get that? It's like, commit this time to God. We're going to have family time. We say, Lord, if there's anything that is urgent, you'll bring it to my attention, but I trust you to keep it at bay for the 30 or 40 or 50 minutes that we spend together

at this table. Lord, we commit this time to you. It's so basic, but we can trust God, even if we just want to say a simple prayer, to take away that sense that every moment there may be something that demands my attention of, it's kind of crazy that we live in times like that, but we do. Yeah, it's basically we're trying to take on the attributes of God. It's ultimately a form of idolatry. It's like we feel like we have to be everywhere.

We have to know everything, and we have to be able to do something about everything. And there's only one person that possesses those online attributes, and that's God himself. And so it's a way of worshipping and right-sizing our place in the universe. It's a posture of humility, actually, to be able to say, God, you can take this one. You know, one Jewish scholar says the essence of the Sabbath is the practice of the sovereignty of God. Okay, hang on, John. We're going to go to a break.

When we come back, I want to talk about that specifically. That is a beautiful idea. Folks, I'm talking to John Tyson. Don't go away. Hey there, folks. I'm talking to the author of a brand new book called Beautiful Reservoir. the joy of conviction in a culture of compromise. John Tyson, pastor, you are here in New York City and in writing this book, you touch on so many important things, but what you just said

was beautiful. It has to do with humility and trusting the sovereignty of God. Talk about that a little bit because that's not something most of us think of, practically speaking. Yeah, and this is relation in particularly to the practice of the Sabbath. And yeah, there's one Hebrew scholar who basically says the Sabbath in its essence is about practicing the sovereignty of God. So I tell people all the time, it doesn't matter what you believe about the sovereignty of God if you're a Calvinist or reform and you walk around with this high and noble doctrine. It's whether or not you believe it in how you live. And there's a lot of people who say God is sovereign, but they live like they actually are. And so the Sabbath in particular

is one of those weekly reminders where we set aside space to simply be created beings. And as Heschel has said about the Saturday before, time is the only commodity human beings cannot master. We've mastered the Adam, we've mastered the raw materials, and we've built almost everything, but the one thing we cannot control is time. We have to receive it. And so his whole vision of stepping into time and using time differently, that's what Christians and the Jewish community are doing in the Sabbath.

We're getting into a window, a space will be saying, God, for 24 hours, minimum, you've got to run the world. I'm not going to check my email. I'm not going to respond. If something falls apart, it's on you. And that sort of weekly response, that weekly training of letting go and releasing is one of the things over the course of time that forms us into different people. And it bleeds throughout the week. We learn to trust. We learn to surrender.

We learn to hand it over. And again, I love the Sabbath and have practiced the Sabbath religiously for almost 20 years because it's kept to me sane. A lot of pastors become egomaniacs, the center of religious activity. But on the Sabbath, you remember, it's all gods. It's all gods. It's up to him. So that's that, I think, is one of the most important things.

I think also what we have to do oftentimes is we have to train our friends and our relatives, we have to let them know that during this time, I won't be available. If there's an emergency, you can do this or this or this, but I want you to know that I am not available to anyone. I'm doing what I'm doing. And just so you know that up front, so you don't worry, I have a friend who writes a weekly column, and people know that for a day and a half for two days, those days are sacrosanct. We will not reach that person. And, you know, I think sometimes we do have to train those around us to say,

look, this is not a personal thing. I just want you to understand that this is something I've had to do to preserve my sanity and my peace. It's part of my faith. And the funny thing is we respect that in our Orthodox Jewish friends. I have a number of Orthodox Jewish friends. I go, oh, no, we can't do it because this. the Sabbath. And right away, I don't go like, how annoying. Just the opposite, I think, how wonderful.

My goodness, I'd be delighted to work around those boundaries. And I think, obviously, the Orthodox Jews have, that one they have down. It's kind of dramatic when you encounter somebody who is living that. And you think, well, they seem to live a perfectly normal life. But they take that tremendously seriously. And we ought to be able to do something along those lines as well. Yeah, what I'm basically, and the Jewish community is so remarkable because without a homeland, without an actual place to live, for almost 2,000 years, they've maintained a very robust, distinct culture among themselves. And it's amazing where Christians, with all of their influence and all of their privilege, at this point in history, you'd think after thousands of years of faith and teaching and scripture,

we have no distinct practices at this time of history. can't even, whenever they come up with the tests of what an evangelical is, they're always watering them down because we can't even come up with like consistent practices. So to me, that's my big argument. You have to resist the culture in order to live a beautiful life, the one Jesus calls us to. There has to be teeth to it, some antithesis. And if you just let the culture have its way with you, you will compromise, you will be exhausted, you're given to idolatry, you will lose the salt and light out of your life. So push back. I'm calling for a conscious resistance in these areas to make us the church Jesus wants us to be.

And you know, as I said with my Orthodox Jewish friends, there's something attractive about it. And I think that many Christians have bought into this distinctly American notion of hyper-tolerance that I don't ever want to make anyone feel uncomfortable because I'm different in any way. And that's absurd that there's beauty. I mean, you know, we hear about diversity all the time. Being who you are as a Christian, there are tons of people who will really be attracted to that and be, have their curiosity piqued and think, that is so interesting. I noticed there was something different about you. I'm fascinated. What do you mean that you, you fast every Wednesday or what do you mean that you, on Sundays, you don't look at that? I mean, that's, man, that's

weird, but I'd love to do that. What, tell me about that. You know, I think many of us are, particularly in places like New York, we've been trained to think that, you know, I've got to be quoting the New York Times and every conversation to show them that I'm not some jug-headed, you know, snake handler who came out of the woods and I've got to go. And we forget that sometimes showing that otherness, the otherness of walking with Jesus is, is very provocative in a good way to people who are looking for meaning in their own lives. Yeah, to me, it's all about the spirit in which you do the practices. So, you know, Jesus got stuck into the Pharisees, you sons of hell, you're like, you know, whitewashed tombs, you brood of wipers. So there's a way to practice our faith that does a ton of damage, but there's a way to do it with conviction that is compelling. And, you know, that passage in First Peter that says, live such good lies amongst the pagans

that though they slander you, they may be sighted. and put to shame by your good behavior. So when you do it in a screwed of humility, when you do it with integrity and out of love, which is the chief motive of our faith towards God and others, I think people respect it. And I've often found people with whom I have violent clashes in terms of worldview will still at the end of the conversation

say, I respect the integrity of which you live your life. I see what you're talking about in your children manifested with a beautiful spirit. I see your marriage and I look at that and I say, at least he's living what I believe. So it's really, as Jesus said, it's all about putting it on display because when the good works come, we are the city on the hill and they will praise our father in heaven. They will say, what is that? It's provocative. It's a hope. So I want to, we'll pick up right there. Folks, I'm talking to John Tyson. Don't go away. Hey there, folks. This is the Eric Metaxis show. I am talking to Pastor John Tyson. He has a new book out, beautiful resistance, the joy of conviction in a culture of compromise. You just,

John, we're quoting Jesus. Many of us think that John Winthrop, you know, came up with this in 1630 when he preached his famous sermon about the Shining City on a Hill. But it is a principle that obviously Jesus says it. But then through history, you see it. And, you see it. that we, the people of God, are always meant to exist for others. In other words, we want to look beautiful and shining in such a way that people say, what is that? I would like that. I'm attracted to that.

That's interesting to me. I think that obviously when Jesus talks about, you know, putting your light under a bushel, we are not meant to put our life under a bushel. There are many Christians, they've got several bushels covering their light. not interested at all in shining that light. And that's really the whole point in a way, that we're supposed to do this so that others can see it and be attracted to it. One of the most compelling things that Jesus talks about on the sermon on the mount that he says, and it gives light to the whole house. That's what happens when your light

is on a stand. It gives light to the whole house. Ever been in a dimly lit house and you can't see it, your eyes are strained and it just, and then someone turns a light and you get total clarity. That's the role we're called to play by following Jesus and doing it in a public manner. The reason Christians cannot accept that Christianity is purely an interior attitude and private faith is because we're called to live these things with the whole of our being and that means bringing it to bear in every part of our cultural life. And when we do it with humility, yet with gracious conviction, it does make people go, what is that? They are provoked. in a good way. And the challenge of this time of history, Leslie Newbigin, the great

miscellologist, has this quote. He said, we must live such provocative, we must live our lives in the kingdom of God in such a way that it provokes questions for which the gospel is the answer. We must live in the kingdom of God in such a way that it provokes questions for which the gospel is the answer. So the reason we've got no hearing when people are yelling in the streets and holding up signs and screaming at people is no one wants to know the answer to that faith. But when you live provocatively and people say, what is that? It gives us the chance to say, this is Jesus that you've heard about embodied in a humble human life. And so radical kingdom living does live invites, critique, questions and challenges from those who may be totally apathetic about the

faith we possess. And I want to say to those listening who haven't done a lot of what we're talking about, you know, I am among them. I have screwed up in so many ways and so many different contexts and I think to myself that's the beauty of the good news is that we can repent and we can just say Lord today we start anew

help me to do this starting today and there is no guilt for not having done it up till now he makes all things new he restores with the poma worm and the locust of eaten all these promises in scripture so I want to exhort people in case you feel like oh I just I missed it you didn't miss anything

if you're listening right now. My friend, John, we're out of time. Congratulations on everything you do. It's vital for the kingdom to be here in New York City. The book is Beautiful Resistance, The Joy of Conviction in a Culture of Compromise, and the website, again, I can hardly believe it. Tell us your website is church.

That's it. Church. NYC. John Tyson, thanks for your time. God bless you. Hey there, folks. I'd like to suggest that you go to Salem now. com, Salem now.com. Particularly right now, they have a film called One Nation Under God. It tells the

story of a student who goes to a prestigious magnet school and finds out that the principal has issued an edict. No one can mention God in the school. A few weeks later, a senator and presidential candidate comes to the school to speak. And David Guterres asks him a question. He says, if our founding fathers placed God at the center of our nation, which of course they did, shouldn't God be a part of our schools and government today? The senator, no surprise is caught off guard and what he says sets off a frenzy of national press coverage. So see how the courage of one student standing for his conviction can inspire others. Watch One Nation under God at SalemNow.com.

SalemNow.com use the code Eric for 20% off.